A Retort

I will go with the dancer every time.

I hope you respect my opinions. I am just being honest.

Carry on,

Dave

PS I did not read your post. Was I supposed to read it?

LMAO...

David S.,

Were you supposed to read my post?

ANSWER: Absolutely not - doing so would be a total waste of your valuable time. It is one atrocity inspired by another atrocity. It was mainly for my own entertainment at the expense of FAA's server space. Do NOT read it. Stop! Don't go back there and do it anyway. I'm telling you, David Bridburg, ... DO ... NOT ... READ .. MY... POST ! I put it there to be ignored, specifically by YOU. If you read it now, then you will mess up its cosmic intent, which was to be deleted by the moderator for being in bad taste.

snort

So far you have not achieved your goals.

Perhaps if you used a different font?

Dave

I cannot control the font. Perhaps I should put in a request to enable font control ... lots of cursive to make it hard to read ... you know, violate good web appearance practices to be even MORE of an atrocity.

Does this count as art? I wouldn't want to insult anybody for calling it art, you know. After all, .. all I did was press a few buttons without any imagination. And writing, like cooking is NOT an art, so how could I even entertain such a notion?

If time and effort are the criteria for art then Dance is not art.

Nature is art - look how long that has taken to get where it is. And it is still work in progress.

So, let me get this right....... You just called me, and several others, a retarded physical specimen with limited anatomical expressiive abilities?

I think much of this, and the other retort threads are a direct reaction to the brief rant posted yesterday and much of it should be taken tongue in cheek. I doubt more than a handful of people actually believe any particular medium is "THE" only true art.

I see THIS each time I" clock in " Artist/Photographs.......maybe it's time to take down that silly sign and replace it with something like Contributing Artist and put an end to this pointless discussion.

The term "dancer" is used far to often these days to the point it has nearly lost all meaning.

Surely the only true form of dance is ballet. All of these lesser forms - step, jazz and even *SNORT* Irish Folk Dance are confusing people into thinking they are a true art form.

Lord of the Dance? Please! Let me see those guys and gals try standing on their toes for four hours straight. "So You Think You Can Dance?" - give me a break. Is anyone in that show over 40? How can they call themselves a dancer if they haven't been inducted into the Dance Hall of Fame or been on stage at the Lincoln Center.

"Dancing with the Stars?" - this show is a travesty. It gives the false impression that anyone, even a B list celebrity can learn to dance. Even people without "the Gift".

These days when ever someone asks me what I do I say "I'm a dancer" and the first thing they say is "Strip?" Its embarrassing.

well i liked to throw my feet about. kind of abstract. then vomit on the floor.... metaphorically speaking of course!! hoho ... gotta dance vid?

To be honest, I think the only truely created art is a fART.
It's unique, can only be created by be, cannot be copied, can be delivered in a variety of expressive ways.
Vive Le Petomane (Joseph Pujol) a true fartist!


edit: it's also a "retort" :D

Robert,

I suppose that if someone doesn't sing while dancing, that someone must be .."a retarded physical specimen with limited anatomical expressiive abilities" and not an artist

Roger - stop moving the goal post on us! ;-)

So, let me get this right....... You just called me, and several others, a retarded physical specimen with limited anatomical expressive abilities?

Lady IFAS, yes, just as Steven Hawking is not a real physicist, because he lacks upright locomotion abilities, speech, bodily coordination, etc.

A REAL physicist would have all these things.

Roger S. [Man, I really got your name wrong on the first edit!]., ... the art of the fart ... sounds like the subject of a new academic art history book. When will I see your first draft? [Please keep your drafts downwind of me.]


Seriously now, the fundamental flawed premise in the argument motivating my silliness here is that the magnitude and intensity of physical efforts determine the magnitude and intensity of the respect we give these efforts as defining what art is. This is a personal bias, rather than a standard assessment or good judgment.

Art is NOT determined by the range of motion of muscles and joints or the measures of muscular tension in muscle fibers. More range of movement, more tension in those movements, and more duration at a given level of tension and range of bodily movements are NOT measures of art legitimacy. Let's put this bias to bed, once and for all.

Creativity happens in many media at many levels and many configurations of muscular efforts.

Sometimes photography IS harder than painting. Many times, photography IS easier than painting.

If you find this hard to accept, then consider trying to get a macro shot of a wetland plant in early morning light. To do this, you want to get down low and on the same level of the plant, which means you have to lay on your stomach in the mud at just the right time. Sun's up, ... quick got get the shot before the angle of changes, ... frame the sucker in the view finder, .... a tweak left, ... a tweak up or down to position the subject just right in the viewfinder, ... CRAP, it just took me five minutes to get all that exactly the way I wanted, now I've overshot the focal length of my cheap macro lens and the subject is out of focus, so now (on my stomach, laying in the mud, wiggling backwards, scratching my belly on a rock [God, I hope it was a rock!], I've got to move the camera backwards to get things in focus again, but now I've lost the exact composition I had, AND the damn light angle of the sun is getting higher, so now I've got to take another light meter reading, keeping my camera dry, hoping I can remember the settings without writing them down, because I surely do not have another two hands to do that, and it's too wet in here to have paper, so I had BETTER darn well remember it right. After I spend another five minutes reframing the subject, still wet on my stomach, neck getting stiff from holding my head at this weird angle for a sustained amount of time, light angle getting higher and higher, waiting for that damn bug to fly off the leaf, and CRAP, now a subtle breeze is blowing the leaf too (blurry-shot worries kick in), ... will I EVER ... GET ... THIS ... SHOT ?..., maybe ... maybe I can press the button. Ah, were it so simple as JUST pressing the button without all this worry, like painters who can sit comfortably on their studio stools, fluidly dragging their brushes across smooth, clean cloth in sunlight filtering through the window on a painting that does not mind a few degrees of light-angle shift to still look the same way.

And now for the post processing simplicity and lack of effort. Somebody else describe this.

Makes me wonder. If I get so good at something that it becomes easy to me, I'm I now back down at the bottom? Seems like ease of doing something is the opposite. The result of putting in the work required to make things easy.


"Photography to the amateur is recreation, to the professional it is work, and hard work too, no matter how pleasurable it my be."

-- Edward Weston

Amazing how people try to change the definition of a word that was around and will be around long after they are gone! Simply amazing. Here I go using words like amazing which truly doesn't fit this scenario one bit. Ah, there it is... I found the right word. How foolish of people to change the definition of a word that has been around years before and will be here years after in a feeble attempt to gain importance of those who are not very important in the grand scheme of life.

Edward, Edward, Edward, ... you surely are no real artist, if you have escaped the fundamental requirement of painful, desperate struggle. If it's easy, then it cannot possibly be art. Where is the angst in THAT?!

Fundamental theorems emerging here:

* If it is easy, then it is not art. -- The Kineaccomplishment Theorem

* If it is painting, then it is narcissistic. -- The Narcissi [or alternate spelling, "Narsissy"] Theorem

These threads and this topic are getting old.

I don't understand why they are allowed to continue, yet relevant threads (like those concerned with outrageous shipping fees) and closed by mods, and others with duplicate content are closed by mods as well. This is, what, the 4th thread on the same stupid topic?

@Melany: it's cheaper than going to the pub ;-)

Melany S.

Ridicule IS relevant, often revealing deeper truths than level-headed discussions. I invite you to join the madness. Come on, ... join us, ... it's fun.

Old topics seen by fresh eyes are not so old too. What I don't understand is why people who think topics are old take the time to enter them and say so, instead of just ignoring them.

Not everybody likes coffee.

Melany - a thread's popularity is determined by the members of the forum. Its not some kind of dictatorship where people are told what they should enjoy talking about.

Despite the topic coming up every week doesn't stop someone from thinking they had a fresh idea.

.....

Judging what's on the recently sold page, I don't think the POD buying public is particularly drawn to anguish.

Incidentally, the pop-up when you hover the mouse over an FAA member's profile uses the desciption, "Firstname Lastname - Fine Artist" :D

The site also calls long dead artists "living" so you can't always go by website mechanics and marketing to determine self worth.

Richard R.

So a mortician could sign up for an FAA account just to participate in artistic "discussions", and would automatically be labelled "Fine Artist"

I dare say that some morticians have taken their practices to the level of "art".

yeah, more so than others. a mortician has to figure out a way to make an embalmed person that's been dead for a while, look pretty enough to view. clothes, make up, closing up vivisection area. so i don't see why not.

@melanie - what should we talk about? these threads are the most relevant we had for a long time. its not a - i have an illness, i have issues at home, the world is coming to an end in sept, etc thread. its about art and artists, why so glum? and its not another picture thread.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Besides the need to work a day job doesn't diminish someone's creative efforts. It would be great if all artists could live carefree and not have to worry about other life concerns.

Mike S.,

You left out "Post Your Pics Of [whatever]", ... "Let's Talk Copyright Law", ... "The FAA Servers Are Inadequate", ... "My Dog Ate My Art", ... a VIDEO , no words, just play it

Surely, you must realize by now that the best "discussions" here involve NO discussion at all. REAL artists do not use words, ... just PHOTOGRAPS of paintings or drawings, where the photograph is not art, but the subject of the photograph IS.

So is sport art? Or is dance a sport? Is anything which is enjoyed seen by the 'enjoyee' an artform?

@Robert: what if I photograph a photograph.... ;-)

@Barbara: anything that is given marks for "artistry" is not a sport, IMHO since it is then subjective.

gotta give it to you Robert You've got guts but I do believe you just brought a knife to a gun fight.......good luck with your thread.

Seems like trying to slap a definition as to what is "really art" is like trying to say exactly what color is the wind.

Any anybody can spend a lifetime 'doing' a particular thing...it doesn't mean they are any good at it....it just refers to how long they've been at it.

I prefer my art to stay still on the walls. Not dance about. Perhaps dancing canvas could be one of the new lines from FAA.

I think I'll go get another cup of coffee. Blah !

Since labels seem to be the topic....and dance...I'll chime in.

Funny thing is, when you are a dancer, rarely do you call yourself one.... because, the first perception the public has is that of stripper....yes I know this for a fact because I was a stage performer and dance was my specialty. I would say, I am a member of a stage company or a performance artist but dancer no.... taking my clothes off in front of a crowd was not something I wanted to be known for...even if it was completely false in the first place.

Just saying,

Cheers, Barbara

RE: Dancer-Stripper

Sorry, can't help it,...but..back in those days...

That's funny Roger, exactly the perception....back in the day....it seems like a life time ago :-)))



Cheers, Barbara

Ok I just have to....................

DANCER

Darkness
just a small glimmer of light as the music begins
sultry, deep, bass

into the light moves a leg
stockings black and shiny
her body follows
red lace catching the glint from the spotlight as she moves
breasts high in tight bodice
movements slow and measured in time to the beat
heat moving from flesh to meet the mens gazes

Silk gloves, sliding down
and off
over pink tipped nails

sweat glistens on her neck as she commands the stage
feet graceful as silver studs pop open

she holds the material in front of her like a shield
then it slides in a heap to the floor

men pant in the heat
eyes squinting in the dark
drinks forgotten as pure sex is offered
but not in reach

her back to them now
perfect cheeks move back and forth
dark v on show as she bends and sways

music speeds the band demented
her body swings faster
breasts glistening and leaving moisture on the silver pole
tongue out in concentration she licks her lips
holding the stiff metal between her legs
she slides up and down
in a travesty of copulation
a man coughs but is ignored
her eyes closed as she simulates desire
of each one watching
in their minds
passion denied at home
passion forgotten in some
passion
at a price

the music pitches
she cries out
and moans
acting out her own frustration
back arched
hands grasping the fake erection

the music stops
she stops
head bowed

chairs scrape the floor
glasses clink
orders shouted across the bar
the men look around, embarrassed in the sudden light
legs crossing and uncrossing self consciously
one man looks for her
she has left
and no-one knows her name

©Isabella Shores

@ Abbie, your writing is brilliant ;-)) and no-one knows her name...



Cheers, Barbara

Abbie,

Who let you out of the nunnery?

How did you escape?

Not signed for fear of the management.

um...I thought it was an obvious 'tongue in cheek' post...but I also remembered Robert's dance background ;o)

Lady Isabella of many artistic talents...

@Robert: what if I photograph a photograph.... ;-)

Then, you become the target of a discussion about intellectual property theft, and probably you will receive a take-down notice or a cease-and-desist letter. If the photography is one of your own that you photograph, then .... well, ... you will just have to sue yourself. THAT would make a really interesting discussion thread!

I dont know Sue herself, is she a dancer?

Dave

Yes, we all know the more common perception of a dancer as a stripper.

I feel there is a sexual perception in any activity that does not involve tossing a standard implement into a standard goal configuration in front of a painted, wildly-cheering crowd, but, then, again, strippers get those crowds too.

I remember a conversation I had years ago with a fellow (fellowis?) female dancer talking about stretching by herself in a health club. She said that she felt that onlookers considered stretching as a form of masturbation. And massage therapists routinely have to set certain clients on the right path by reminding them that all message is not sexual. I remember also a "dance contest" that a local bar put on, and one girl (a fairly competent jazz dancer) showed her talents in an obviously worked-on piece of planned choreography, only to have the contest won by a local professional stripper who basically just stripped off her top, flapped her wares and shouted to the audience to come by an see her sometime at the club. The jazz dancer was humiliated and stormed out. I expected nothing less of a BAR audience.

So, is a stripper an artist? Of course, ... depending on the stripper, just as photography is an art, ... depending on the photographer.

Is photography sexual? Well, ... that's a whole 'nother line of speculation, but a person COULD see some correspondences that suggest an affirmative to such a question.

* telephoto lenses
* entering a person's private space in public photography
* peeping Tom
* pushing buttons
* going digital
* getting the right angle


Hey, I didn't open that can of worms. I am just chiming in on it and keeping it more or less on topic [Certainly, he jests]

I dont know Sue herself, is she a dancer?

Sue is a stripper, David B. (^_^)

Since we are on this track now, I have to admit that I believe that anything that focuses on the human body in any focused way is almost unavoidably sexual. And any activity that is an expression of a human being is an expression of a human body, which is sexual expression to some degree. It is just unavoidable by the definition of life itself, and how life arises and thrives.

So is painting MORE sexual than photography? Is dance MORE sexual than painting? Probably "yes" to both questions, but I await the stones tossed at me now by others chiming in.

It had to go here, you know.

Good for Sue.

Where?

Dave

Robert,

My mouse is sexual.

Scary huh?

Dave

Robert,

My mouse is sexual.

Scary huh?

Dave


Yeah, so now we can change the "F" word to the "C" word. For example, "He is a clicking maniac." or "Click off!", or somebody might say, "I'm getting clicking tired of this discussion."

Have I taken this whole thing too clicking far?

Closer her down!!

not signed

Lady IFAS,

Nice job with the poem, by the way. I once wrote something similar and submitted it to PLAYBOY magazine. I would post it here, but I have no clue what happened to my copy of it. I had not thought about this for over ten years. Just to be clear, I did NOT subscribe to that mag. I was in a phase of submitting stuff anywhere it might be published.

Interesting, ... I never got a reply, but for five or so years, the magazine came to my door every month with never a billing statement in sight. I saved all those mags without ever so much as opening them, so they are in mint condition now as collector items.

Poetry (like photography) is not an art, you know. (^__^)

Oh, ... and I forgot to pay my respects to THIS comment:

um...I thought it was an obvious 'tongue in cheek' post...but I also remembered Robert's dance background ;o)

I would neeeeeeever put my tongue in my cheek for fear of biting it. I have enough trouble keeping my foot out of my mouth.