An Afterlife?

I don't believe in an afterlife.

Or a beforelife for that matter!

I believe we just don't know -- how could we? Nobody has come back from the dead to tell us. The unknown can be scary, but I think we need to be brave enough to keep living -- not knowing -- and do the best we can here on earth. It's one of the hardest parts of being human and conscious -- to keep going while others have "passed," and knowing we, too, will soon be no more. I am comforted by the thought that my body will feed the earth, and I don't believe in souls.

There is a body of evidence that people love to ignore, but that I feel is extremely valid almost as a new level of science that is emerging in our time. I don't know if it will allow us to connect to what we now consider non-physical or non-local energy in the near future, but one of the technologies, and forgive me, I haven't studied it at all is EVP. Electronic Voice Phenomena is difficult to explain even to this day.

The thing I'm trying to suggest is that human consciousness has evolved in my opinion. You can make this religious if you want to, but I'm not either atheist which is very religious or any other sector of religious dogma. I look at the evidence which is very interesting. But be careful...if you go into a world you're not ready for, you may find yourself more sensitive to this kind of phenomena.

It's fashionable for grounded folks to say some of this is imagination or BS and that might be the case. On the other scale of 180 degrees at the present time there are a great many instruments like temperature gauges, recording devices, Frank or Ed boxes, Jacob Ladder device, infra-red, em-pump, dark light, magnetic meters, that are used in haunted places that pick up non-local energy. I think we'll find that these energies are real and intelligent in time, but I'm not betting on it.

Very intriguing, Lisa! I'll be watching for any developments into EVP. Meanwhile, I did a little reading, and I can't disagree with the fact that our brains work to perceive meaning in random sounds. Yet I agree with you that human consciousness has evolved and will continue to do so. There will be exciting days ahead. I think I'm one of those "grounded folks" of which you speak, but my views are not based on what's fashionable, only on what I believe to be true -- for myself.

Oops, sorry for that word "fashionable" Patricia. In science, it's highly unfashionable to talk about high strangeness without the boorish science data and results that can support a thesis. In the art world, things are equally grounded in politics and backing up what you say with evidence. I see you, Patricia, as a very honest human expressing what you believe to be true and that has integrity that I respect!

"Well, this is great. If the ionization-rate is constant for all ectoplasmic entities, we can really bust some heads... in a spiritual sense, of course." - Ray Stantz

EVP? Seriously?!

The simplest explanation for Electronic Voice Phenomena is that it's the product of your own wonderfully complex brain, aided by a strong emotional desire to make contact with the dead.

I do believe in an after life, and believe it or not it has nothing to do with scripture. Ever since I can remember I was always curious and still am curious about this life, always wondering and always amazed at how beautiful a thing life is, even in it's suffering and it sorrows, it has something so mysterious. I've always known that it would not be something totally attainable to discover in this life what it is. I've always believed for some reason that it would be in the next life that all things would be revealed. I still believe this and it is the most joyful hope for the future I have because I know it's inevitable, the day I meet my maker.

As far as evp which I am slightly familiar with, I don't believe they are a product of the brain or the desires or motives of the person who captures them. I believe there exist many such phenomena which science can not explain or explain away. One such fascinating scientific event or experiment is the double slit experiment, in which atomic particles behave in different ways then they are understood they should behave, and only when being observed by human eyes as if they "the particles know they are being watched" very fascinating and still a mystery.

Watch this episode of Brain Games.

I love that episode, Bob.

That doesn't explain EVP. There is more technology than just recorders. There are voice analyzer instruments that can detect whether the voice is from human organs or something else. The same technology examines speech and frequencies. There is more science than what you have presented in the episode of Brain games. I don't want to change your mind, but you are only looking for evidence that supports what you believe and belief makes for bad science. Show me something more than entertainment and fashionable undeterred ego fancy and I'll be a bit more interested in this thread.

Oh and to answer the original question, No there is no afterlife.. we only get one chance at life, use the one you get to its fullest.

Consciousness is a product of brain chemistry, and electrical activity of the brain neurons. Once those stop we no longer exist anywhere.

All that makes up human "brain chemistry" existed long before the human brain.
The brain's neurons "evolved" so many times...it's a wonder why they "no longer exist anywhere"...by now...eh?

Maybe they're suicidal and thought...
Lets just get into a human and end this madness? ;))

OK, Bob. That's comforting.

I think it is liberating.

if that were the case, I think it's a waste.

Let's have a real quick show of hands...is there anyone here who believes the Earth is flat?

Do you still believe that lightning never strikes twice?

You probably think that unprotected exposure to the vacuum of space means instant death, or perhaps you still believe that there's no gravity in space.

And what about the dark side of the moon…do you suspect that it's always shrouded in darkness?

How about diamonds? How many of you still think that diamonds come from coal? Let me help you with this one…the carbon in diamonds has been confirmed to pre-date every lifeform that ever appeared on this planet, which means the diamonds that Mario wears in his lobes weren’t derived from coal, a mostly ancient plant material; NEWSFLASH - they’re most likely made of star-stuff.

And speaking of brain cells...if you still think you destroyed most of what Mario's god gave you back when you were bingeing as if there were no tomorrow, you can relax now; your precious brain cells have always had the ability to regenerate many times over in the course of your lifetime.


We should fire-up a new thread and call it MYTHBUSTERS...maybe then we could finally put to rest all the nonsense that passes itself off as wisdom.

The truth is out there.

as for your diamond myth




just proves that carbon dating is flawed!

"You probably think that unprotected exposure to the vacuum of space means instant death", no not instant death, you would suffocate first , your blood would boil and you would then freeze to death.

Mario.. thanks.. that confirms what Patrick said. (about diamonds)

Huh? how that?

Did you know A pig’s orgasm lasts for 30 minutes?

The carbon that is in the center of the earth was created in the center of generations of stars each generation creating heavier and heaver elements from the dust of the previous generation of stars. When those start go supernova they spread out the new elements into space only to eventually condense into new stars or just clump together to form the planets. Stars do not make diamonds just the carbon that makes up the planets like earth.

The pig thing is a good example of survival of the fittest in action. During that half hour his sperm has time to fertilize her eggs. If it were shorter than there would be time for another male to have his way with her and fertilize her eggs. This way the male is insured to pass on his genes to the next generation. Cool how that works huh?

Certainly a stretch of the imagination to claim the video I posted proves Patrick's origin of diamond theory. So far the diamonds come from the center of the earth, according to the national geographic video, Now if Patrick the science guy who might be related to Bill Nye the science guy has some thing better to prove why, I'm all pig ears.lol

Patrick says that diamonds are made carbon just as the natgeo video says. The carbon that is in the center of the earth was created in the center of exploded suns, not from coal, which was created from organic material.

All of which has nothing to do with the afterlife.

Thanks to Patrick, the hijacker!

Thanks for posting that video, Mario. It confirms that which I've already said regarding the myth: Diamonds are not made from coal!

Coal is a form of carbon, which is derived from ancient plant life. Professor Steve Haggerty postulates that diamonds are formed from another type of carbon - that which I call, "Star-Stuff," because it is manufactured by ancient stars that have gone super nova.

Allow me to explain it to you in simple layman's terms: Geologists believe that the diamonds in all of Earth's commercial diamond deposits were formed in the mantle and delivered to the surface by deep-source volcanic eruptions. These eruptions produce the kimberlite and lamproite pipes that are sought after by diamond prospectors. Diamonds weathered and eroded from these eruptive deposits are now contained in the sedimentary (placer) deposits of streams and coastlines.

The formation of natural diamonds requires very high temperatures and pressures. These conditions occur in limited zones of Earth's mantle about 90 miles below the surface, where temperatures are at least 2000 degrees.

This critical temperature-pressure environment for diamond formation and stability is not present globally. Instead it is thought to be present primarily in the mantle beneath the stable interiors of continental plates.

Mario. If you insist on posting videos to bolster your arguments - even when you've been politely asked to refrain - I recommend you watch the video until you're able to understand the material that is being presented.

As for the myth about instant death in the vacuum of space, understand that a human being can survive 15-30 seconds in open space, provided they’ve exhaled all the oxygen from their lungs before exposure. If not, then their lungs will burst instantly. If you empty your lungs first, you stand a better chance of surviving for at least a half-minute or so, which will allow you enough time to contemplate your life before you fucking freeze to death.


Bob. The myths to which I’ve previously alluded have everything to do with this nonsensical myth about an afterlife in the sense that they’re all myths that have been debunked.

Busted!

Did you know that dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is an illegal hallucinogen that is naturally produced by the human brain? Look it up, and you'll discover that its affect on your dying brain accounts for all those reports of a white light at the end of a tunnel with heaven waiting for you just beyond it.

Yada yada yada, Synde kindly asked we not post scripture, that she wanted to know in our own words what we believed of the afterlife, and your posting Bill Nye the science guy science 101 stuff (worse than scripture), just another form of hijacking when you want to avoid the subject at hand or just happen not to agree with it and expect the whole world to go along with your far out explanations of the universe according Patrick(yes your entitled to you opinion) but stay the course old chap. I have a few spices for you my old friend which work wonder on the aging brain, ginkgo biloba, I also have for you some Chinese Red ginseng power, works very good!

By using the expression, 'life after death,' I think what is meant would most accurately be expressed as 'consciousness after death.'

A disembodied 'consciousness' with no sensory input whatsoever, completely isolated and cut-off from the corporeal world from whence it originally came, now locked up in a temporal prison, of sorts.

Sounds delightful so far, don’t it?

You're dead, and consciously, you are very much aware of the fact you no longer have a body...no eyes with which to see the world, no hands with which to touch someone you love, no sound, no smell and holy shit! No way to enjoy the taste of great food!

You're just this pathetically disembodied conscious entity - or soul or spirit or whatever you wish to call it - with no means by which to experience anything, no memory of ever having experienced anything in your "living" past. You are as unconscious as a rock and now you realize that you can't even dream because you have no experiences from which to draw in order to create a dream.

You are so screwed!

You're now a prisoner locked in some non-corporeal, purgatory-of-a-cell that somehow contains whatever may be left of your consciousness.

This reminds me of a story by Dalton Trumbo called, ‘Johnny Got His Gun.’ It’s about a young American soldier named Joe Bonham, who’s serving in World War I, when he suddenly awakens in a hospital bed after being caught in the blast of an exploding artillery shell. He gradually realizes that he has lost his arms, legs, and all of his face (including his eyes, ears, teeth, and tongue), but that his mind functions perfectly, leaving him a prisoner in his own body.

Now that’s what I call ‘Life After Death!

Re: ‘Johnny Got His Gun’

When attending nurses report to the patient's doctors that Joe seems to be experiencing seizures, a team of military specialists is summoned to his bedside. They wait for the so-called seizures to begin and are not disappointed, but none of them can figure out what the apparent cause might be.

That is, until one of the lower-ranking officers notices that Joe keeps banging his head against the pillow in rhythmic patterns that bring to the observer's mind a certain code.

"It's morse code," he tells the others.

"What is he saying," one of them asks.

"He keeps repeating the same message, over and over...he's saying, 'Kill me, kill me, kill me.'"

I believe death is final.

And if it's not, what a nice surprise that might be. Guess we will have to wait and see on this one.

Note that I said, I believe death to be final; I didn't say that I know death is final.

I don't know that there isn't an afterlife, nor do I think there is such a thing.

I choose not to believe in God, but were I to one day be confronted by such a being, I'd change my tune in a nanosecond...and then beg for his forgiveness.

Do you understand?

Beautiful! Yes, I understand, their might be some hope for you after all.

Okay story time: I had this odd experience. If I've told this story before, please disregard. My brother in law was a criminal and he died during a crime, he was both high and drunk at the time of his passing and he died in a fire. This death didn't traumatize my family at all. Because he was a felon and lived a life of crime, we mostly ignored him. We barely noticed his death and my husband and son didn't shed a single tear. I don't think I did either, I'm sorry to say. A day after I had heard of his passing, I felt a crushing sensation in my chest and doubled over in pain. I couldn't believe it, as I felt like I was having a heart attack. I put all my strength into straightening my body and not succumb to the Mother of pains. When I finally straightened my body, I saw my brother in law plain as day looking rather young and completely sober. In terror I screamed at him to find God. I told him he was dead. He backed away from me turning his head sadly and I experienced his thoughts about God. And for him there was no God. This probably lasted less then a few seconds and the pain I felt was gone and never returned. I still don't know if the experience was authentic of what people see and feel if they see dead people, but it was one of those experiences that I really don't want to have again and thankfully it hasn't happened again. I went to church the next day and dragged my family with me. I prayed for him that day, but was quickly back to my "non churchy" non judgmental and practical self afterwards. Patrick's response made me think of this for some odd reason.

Lisa. It would seem that your conscience may have been trying to reconcile feelings of apathy, perhaps even hatred, toward this man with all the pent-up guilt you felt for not grieving. The manifestation of a few seconds of intense pain could be the result of an anxiety attack, which might result in the symptoms you described.

And don't rule out having hallucinations as a possible side-effect or symptom.

My point is this: We should always look for the simplest explanation - aka: Okham's Razor - when attempting to sort out those troubling experiences and phenomena that at first we can't explain.

I like that and it makes a whole lot of sense minus the anxiety. I'm a type B relaxed personality. Not much bothers me although i am hyper-sensitive to other people's needs. I am thinking that my husband's hidden emotions may have gotten the better of me.

Lisa, that was an intense story. I'm not sure what the meaning of your experience was, but I am not one to question the validity of these types of experiences, specifically because I was a big skeptic about these kinds of things, until I experiences a series of supernatural experiences frequently over a period of years. The experience totally convinced me that there is such a thing as evil and good, and that these two forces are very present and around us trying to influence us on many levels in our physical and spiritual life. I won't be so quick to dismiss this as some emotional, guilt, driven circumstantial reaction you had.

I will remind everyone that there is still an unclaimed $1,000,000 reward from the James Randi

http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

Still unclaimed.

Well Bob, I would have that $1,000,000. if I would have know about this challenge, but I did not. I did have physical evidence, actually some might still exist in the medical records. However the hard evidence was on hundreds of digital photo's I managed to take, these photo's were shown to paranormal investigators and other professionals and half were split on thinking I faked the images and the other half was astounded by the images. I had no doubt what type on entity I was dealing with and I destroyed all the images, traces may reside on a hard disk of a computer I have, but the truth is even $1,000,000, could not tempt me to rekindle what we went through for several years on a daily basis, no thank you!

I don't know that I believe in a preternatural existence. I have experienced only a natural world but there are many reasons a person might hallucinate...don't we all hallucinate in dreams every night? We are also conditioned or we have a need to belong so that commits us to a system of thought that flows with other people much like a herd of cattle. I mean, cows just do what we want them to do and does any cow in the world know that we are going to eat it? There are a lot of things humans don't know about the natural world. It's very difficult for humans to see beyond what our human body allows us to see with the naked eye just as it's very hard for cows to comprehend that we are dangerous to them.
With the unseen world AND many will argue that there is no such thing, but until you've worked with weapons grade plutonium or highly contagious microbes, or been at the bottom of the ocean playing games with Russian subs, you are going to see the world in a very innocent way. If you've injected your thousandth animal with deadly nuclides and have a thousand dead beagle dogs that you now have to carefully package and bury, you are hardly the person who can walk with the herd.
In science we calculate or use instruments to see. I cannot, for example see a nuclide, but I can analyze for many types of nuclides with the right instrumentation. The same is true for many types of microbial life. I'm not trying to convince someone of an afterlife or supernatural life force. I had a mental experience that was very odd, and I'm sure most people have those from time to time. Sometimes people hallucinate because they are sick and that could have been my problem, I don't know. It never occurred again and I'm thankful for that. I had an experience as real as I'm having now with writing about it. It was mental. Mental experiences are now being examined in science and they are a part of the unseen world. I'm not trying to propagate the supernatural...that is a term that bothers me a little because it suggests that we cannot study the unseen and we can, and we do, and humans are dangerous to each other and the natural world at large. New weapons are being developed right now that affect our brains so just because you cannot see what's around you, doesn't mean that there isn't anything there.
Goodness, I hate writing so please stop being interesting. (SMILE)

I believe we do live on is some form, we are energy and energy never dies. That in itself is everything I need to know that death does not actually exist as we know it. Here is a couple of articles written by Robert Lanza MD which I found very interesting, and actually the way he writes is pretty easy to comprehend.

Does Death Exist?
By Robert Lanza MD

Many of us fear death. We believe in death because we have been told we will die. We associate ourselves with the body, and we know that bodies die. But a new scientific theory suggests that death is not the terminal event we think.
http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/does-death-exist/

Five Reasons You Won't Die

We've been taught we're just a collection of cells, and that we die when our bodies wear out. End of story. I've written textbooks showing how cells can be engineered into virtually all the tissues and organs of the human body. But a long list of scientific experiments suggests our belief in death is based on a false premise, that the world exists independent of us − the great observer.

Here are five reasons you won't die.

Reason One. You're not an object, you're a special being. According to biocentrism, nothing could exist without consciousness. Remember you can't see through the bone surrounding your brain. Space and time aren't objects, but rather the tools our mind uses to weave everything together.

"It will remain remarkable," said Eugene Wigner, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963 "in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the conclusion that the content of the consciousness is an ultimate reality."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lanza/5-reasons-you-wont-die_b_810936.html

Great post Lisa, please read the articles I posted in this thread and the intelligent design vs evolution, I think they are very close to your thinking.

Hallucinations may be another way of seeing, another form of consciousness that does exist in that moment in time? Dreams as well, same thing.

I'm reading them now, Sydne. Thank you.

i don't believe in after or before lives. i do believe in many dimensions, no time and space and that we exist on many different planes. i believe we will leave this life because we've completed what we needed to learn in our physical bodies and that we shed those bodies when we, "die". except i do not believe we die. i believe we choose whatever dimension we need to go to next to learn more lessons. and ultimately i believe we are all one.

Hmmm... I will probably get left back.

to repeat a lifetime ;)

I am Sophi, Sophi is me, scary thought. JK, Lol

I think I like Carolyn's concepts. Why do some of you call her Sophi?

Ah! Sophi this is what she prefers.

its my middle name, Lisa. its what my friends call me. i don't really mind which name people use though.

I'm a mix between what Sydne and Sophi believes on the "afterlife."

I'll admit that reading about "life after death" has always been a fascination for me. I've read about every book on the subject by Dr. Raymond Moody as well as those of others. Generally, I believe that when my physical body dies I'll become aware of my other consciousness aka soul/spirit. I think we are pure energy and we return to the source of all energy... No, I don't believe in the christian view of heaven or hell. I think when my body dies, I'll be off soaring through the universes doing whatever it is I am meant to do.

In 1973 I had an unusual experience while I was working in a bank. For a time I found myself outside of my body - looking down at it. My body was just "there" and it looked lifeless. I felt this awful panic as I floated higher and away from it but not too far away. To say I was frightened would be an understatement but as soon as I felt a sense of dread and fear, it subsided and the most beautiful sense of bliss came over me. I loved watching hundreds of people going about their business below where I hovered ( I worked in the lobby of Woodmen of The World Tower in Omaha) The next thing I knew was raising my head while back in my body.

The only thing I can say is that for close to a year I felt a sadness like I'd never felt and I yearned for the type of bliss I'd felt during that brief time. Not only was my sadness heightened, but so was my feelings of love towards others. I didn't understand what happened to me - I still don't other than to say it was a classic out of body experience without the near dying episode that many share.

Edit - It was then that I became interested in Dr. Moody's work on life after death.

Donna, i used to do that a lot when i was a child and in fact through my twenties. i had to teach myself not to do it as i live in this dimension and need to focus in this dimension. it is a wonderfully safe place to be. i understand your bliss. one day i'll tell you about my guardian angel. :)

Hi Sophi and thanks. Yes, I experienced a lot of "stuff" beginning at about 7 years old. My mom kept notes and reminded me about some of that stuff when I was an older adult. It sure brought back some very beautiful memories. I think it was around that age when I met my "guide." :)

I have a lot to say about what some call "astral" travel also... but definitely for another time. ;)

Edit to Sydne - I'm now reading the links you offered. :)

Good to see you Donna you were missed!

Hi Sydne.

Thanks and thanks for the links re's Dr. Robert Lanza and biocentrism. Highly thought provoking theory ... I think I'll order his book and hope I'm smart enough to understand it. ;)

I’m thinking what Lanza says is more of a hypothesis than a “theory”. ;)) And some of what he says has been said a millennium ago.

Also…”Kant” in the 1700’s, said that space and time do not exist by themselves…they are not real things existing outside of our mind. They are not qualities, nor relations belonging to the things in them selves. They are the forms of our empirical intuition and are rooted in the subjective structure of our mind. What everrrr! ;)

If I understand Lanza correctly…the universe cannot exist without life and consciousness…and if we ceased to exist, then nothing would exist…the universe wouldn't exist because we wouldn't be here to observe it…right?

But the basic building blocks of the universe are what this planet is made out of. The earth was here before we were on it. (Though that doesn't mean before we were what we truly are ;)

If the universe is essentially made by us, how come we can agree on things and see them the same way? i.e; If you and I, at different times, take a walk along the same path in the woods and along the path is a dead tree…we both most likely will see the tree and describe it pretty much the same.

I don’t believe the universe is dependent on living beings for its interpretation. I believe living beings (our consciousness) are dependent on the universe for its interpretation (consciousness’s own growth)

If we already are (not our physical body) what created us…meaning…Energy/thought/consciousness/God…what ever you want to call it…maybe it transforms into/creates living beings…for the purpose of (and in the same way as all “births” do) expanding growth...its own “gene pool”, for lack of a better term.

Obviously if we truly are that which enabled our consciousness in the first place…then essentially we’re all created equal in that aspect…but growing/expanding this same consciousness to the point of recognizing what it really is…is determined by the mind’s decisions/interpretations/viewpoints/desires. And this is where our differences come into play...not to mention any human genetic handicaps of the mind that may come into play.

Maybe…and again for lack of a better word…we are created out of “love”…and since that underscores our existence…we are not fully cognizant of all that we are as so this way pure growth can expand throughout eternity…and not a robotic machine like mechanism of creative knowledge. The true growth of anything “mental” is derived by desire and effort.
That’s why some ponder these thoughts at a very young age…and some clearly haven’t a clue well into adulthood or till death or not at all. Our mind truly does determine what we become.

If we are already that which created the universes…then there is no death of consciousness…only growth. What we learn in this vibration will determine what we need in the next….and so it goes…until perhaps our individual consciousness is capable of creating a universe of its own? ;)

Now…whether the mind and this creative consciousness/energy go hand and hand in some form or another throughout eternity…I don’t know…maybe at some point they just become one and play nice together? ;)

Just some thoughts :)

Sounds like religion to me. Just some made up wishful thinking to justify our existence.

Sorry but I don't buy any of that. It's pure wishful thinking.

"“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
~Marcus Aurelius

And that is purely your opinion/perspective, not fact/truth. ;)


Religion??? lol I didn't say you must believe what I wrote or else!

Wishful thinking???...Nah...it's more like "thinking" instead of existing as if you know the truth and void of possibilities.

I do exist and I do understand no one has found proof to creation or consciousness yet...that is justification enough for me to think/question how, why or any other matter...and delve deep inside.

One who desires physical death to be the end...just may very well have it be the end...who knows? Certainly not you, nor I ;)

Atheism is just as much a religion, don't kid yourself Bob. A great amount of faith is required to believe in what you say you don't believe in or buy into.

Yes Lawrence.. I sort of agree, but chasing something without the hope of any answers to your questions is on one level pointless. But sure on another level one thought process may lead to an unexpected branch of something that is actually testable.

And everything I say here is of course just my opinion.... I totally agree. ;O)

But I still maintain that the thought of live after death is wishful thinking. However wishful thinking just may be what someone needs to get through the day and that is fine. No harm done.

Unlike religious indoctrination... ;O)

Yes Mario, but the difference is that you accept religion with ZERO proof.. it is all faith.
My belief in science and logic is that these things are testable and repeatable facts.

You have yet in all of these threads ever produced any physical corroborative evidence of any of the "stories" found in the bible.
You might point to things that "might" be evidence, but that evidence is only accepted by those with a stake in the game.

But you do always say.. "show me evidence of evolution..." and I do and you either will not read it, or just ignore it.

An atheism is not a religion. It is the liberation from the shackles of religion that allows the search for answers to things we currently do not understand rather than the answer... God did it, its right there in the bible, do not question it.

Yeah, Bob, show me some repeatable test that science has done to prove evolution. There are many, many scientist that explore that which is unknown yet it does not cancel out religion in any way scientifically, no shackles and I have proven that to you by dozens of quotes of highly scientific minds that have been responsible for some of the most important scientific discoveries ever, from Isaac Newton's times to the present day. Atheism does not have a monopoly on science and science is no substitute for God, far from it science is not absolute and science quite often is imperfect and wrong, an has been throughout history. Remember in all it's advances and discoveries science has not managed to cure the most common human health problem, the common cold.

I have.

There is a thread for evolution boys....just saying. Thanks John for starting a Noah thread.

If I understand Lanza correctly…the universe cannot exist without life and consciousness…and if we ceased to exist, then nothing would exist…the universe wouldn't exist because we wouldn't be here to observe it…right? That is how I understand it. It is hard for me to wrap my head around, but there is something to it, anyway for me.

I don’t believe the universe is dependent on living beings for its interpretation. I believe living beings (our consciousness) are dependent on the universe for its interpretation (consciousness’s own growth)
What if the universe is dependent on living beings for its interpretation(which I do believe), and we are dependent on the universe for its interpretation of itself? One couldn't be with out the other....for its existance.

There is some interesting articles out, that the universe is a brain, and very similar to our brains. I posted this before, http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/27/physicists-universe-giant-brain_n_2196346.html
So it seems to me the universe is evolving, and we are as well, consciousness is expanding in it and us?

Very provocative thoughts Lawrence, really!

Bob why do you need answers? I'm just wondering and with all respect, and I do respect you and many here who have shared your same belief, what are you afraid of? I can't imagine this is it, but I wonder. Its better to believe there is nothing beyond us, than take a chance its not real?

So curing small pox, scarlet fever, plague, polio, measles, yellow fever, malaria, typhoid fever, whooping cough/Pertussis, Pneumococcal disease, Tuberculosis, tetanus, Diphtheria, Chickenpox/shingles..... diseases somehow allowed to infect an intelligently designed being... these don't count?

Yes, they account, but the common colds is still there kinda to remind man that he ain't all that. Like I said no absolute, not perfect,man creates nothing through science, all he does is discover what God has so far allowed him to discover and so far he has discovered that he really has not discovered all that much when looking at the magnitude of what lies beyond our solar system and what we haven't yet discovered and maybe never will discover, this is why science is not and can never be a substitute for God.

i wonder how much God still doesn't know about what lies beyond our solar system.

Sydne....

Well it is certainly fun to use your imagination and as what if. Then use that imagination to see what kind of scenarios you can come up with no matter how illogical or unlikely. It is good brain exercise. I also enjoy fantasy and science fiction movies. And I am guilty of sometimes pointing out how illogical the plot is, but nevertheless totally enjoy the movie as entertainment.

It is even useful to ask what if... to find actual solutions to a problem, but in those cases the what if needs to be testable. Thinking "outside the box" has been responsible for many important discoveries.

Need answers.... hmmm.. not sure how to answer ;O) that one. I guess it all depends on the question. Regarding the posts about dimensions, and the universe being dependent on human consciousness, I have no problem with science studying those things. Just the act of investigating them may open another area of productive study. So I am not afraid of any of that being true and will certainly accept any repeatable scientific finding along those lines.

I could of course turn that question around and ask why are you afraid to accept all the evidence that shows humans to be just another species of mammals. Just one with a much larger and more complex brain which has allowed us to be able to contemplate questions about ourselves. A brain that has evolved the ability to study itself, studying itself. But still just an animal, like all the other animals that we share this planet with. An animal that has evolved from a collection of cells a long, long, very long time ago.

I believe in logic and evidence. Evidence shows us that our self awareness is a product of the chemical and electrical activity in our brains.

bob

Actually I am not afraid to accept all evidence that shows humans to be just another species of mammals, and there is nothing more from here to there. What I do believe we are made of energy and energy never dies. So with that understanding no matter the form we take, whatever it is, there is no death.

Bob. you have not.Lol

Mario, the evidence is there, you just refuse to read it.

Sydne...

But do you believe that our consciousness never dies?

Our consciousness is created by the electrical activity in our brains. And the electricity is created by our living cells. The cells die, the electricity stops. Our body decays... [ energy converted to heat, think compost pile ] Or cremated, again our body converted to heat. So yes the energy contained in us still exists but not our consciousness.

Here fishy fishy fishy. Lol

Yes Mario... and that fishy evolved from pond scum... ;O)

Well Bob do we really understand consciousness? How can we measure scientifically consciousness ceases to exist, when we do not understand it? Maybe it ceases as we understand it, but tomorrow is another day. Perhaps.....just perhaps the mystery evolves on a very solitary journey or a journey we already know but haven't quite been able to touch its face, because we keep looking for answers within what we know. Just thoughts.

Thoughts are great. Means you are still alive ;O)

For Sure!

Seems like a good time to resurrect the parable of the Flatlanders. (As I wrote that sentence, it occurred to me that the effect of my use of the words, 'resurrect' and 'parable' might just give Monsignor Mario a hard-on, so I seriously thought about changing the wording...for about a half second!)

Everyone here, with the exception of Monsignor Mario, should be familiar with the story of the Flatlanders, but if you're drawing a blank - that's a crazy-ass expression in itself...with what might you possibly draw a blank - let me elaborate.

The Flatlanders live peacefully in a world that is flat! Flatlanders themselves are flat, and by flat, I mean they are anything but tall, since they exist in only two dimensions; there is no up or down for the ordinary Flatlander, as their world exists only in a flat plane.

Curiously, these beautifully simple little Flatlanders are blissfully ignorant of the fact that their 'flat' Universe is not really flat at all...it's actually curved.

Still with me?

Unbeknownst to them, the two dimensional Space/Time void of ordinary Flatlanders is curved into three dimensions, just as our own three dimensional Space/Time void is curved into four dimensions; when they look out across the 'plains' of Flatland, the see only a vast, flat expanse. If one of them were to set out on a journey to traverse the Flatland cosmos, as long as they kept walking in a straight (to them) line, they would eventually end up right back where they started.

Now here's an even more curious thing: I can hold the entire Space/Time void inhabited by the Flatlanders in the palm of my hand.

How?

Due to the curvature of their three dimensional Universe, to me - and all of you, too - their world appears, at least on the outside, as nothing more complex than a sphere about the size of a beach ball. I can gaze upon the entire world of these cute little, two dimensional Flatlanders, all of them running around, to and fro - yet, not a single one ever knowing the joy of jumping and falling, the poor bastards - without ever letting on that I'm watching them.

Well then, being playful and a bit mischievous as I so often tend to be - and perhaps a bit naughty, too - I decide to let them know how much I adore them, so I single out a certain, energetic Flatlander, and I holler to him, "Hello!"

To my astonishment, he freezes. In fact, every single Flatlander stops dead in his or her tracks.

"Just wanted to let you know how much I care about you, down there!" I call out.

No movement. None, so I get a bit panicky.

"Everything all right?" I ask.

The once energetic Flatlander stirs a bit, and suddenly, all the other Flatlanders gather round him, buzzing in their apparent excitement...and at that moment, I really think we're making progress.

But then it dawns on me what I've done; to them, I reason, I must seem like...Holy shit!

I'm God.

Yes Patrick, your god, in your own little warped world and mind, why am I not surprised? This is what being disconnected from a life from God causes, an unrelenting need to create fantasy worlds where you can play god, An then you dare say I'm the childish one. Ok, good grief Charlie Brown, Mr. PeeBody the sitter has finally lost it!lol

You know Patrick I love that story!

i loved it too, thanks Patrick :)

I thank you very much, Lady Sydne and Lady Sophi, but please...don't bother trying to explain it to Monsignor Mario; I'm afraid he's a horse of a different color.

It's rather self explanatory Patrick, but I don't much fancy the notion of some eclectic lost soul contemplating he is god. Remember your a 1% percenter in your realm of thought, you need all the support you can get.

Remember friends...any attempt to explain the Flatlander parable to the Monsignor would be futile; he does not nor will he ever, get it.

understood! ;)

Flatland a Romance of Many Dimensions by Edwin Abbott Abbott, 1884
http://www.amazon.com/Flatland-A-Romance-Many-Dimensions/dp/1479283487

there's an illustrated one too, Sydne. i'll have to order this at the library.

You ladies are positively brilliant!

Looks like a book to have.

@ Lawrence -
"The true growth of anything “mental” is derived by desire and effort.
That’s why some ponder these thoughts at a very young age…and some clearly haven’t a clue well into adulthood or till death or not at all. Our mind truly does determine what we become.

If we are already that which created the universes…then there is no death of consciousness…only growth. What we learn in this vibration will determine what we need in the next….and so it goes…until perhaps our individual consciousness is capable of creating a universe of its own? ;)

Now…whether the mind and this creative consciousness/energy go hand and hand in some form or another throughout eternity…I don’t know…maybe at some point they just become one and play nice together? ;) "

OH… In my mind I was jumping up and down in my chair when I read that… especially, all of it! LOL ;)
Thanks for chiming in on the discussion re's biocentrism. You said, "I don’t believe the universe is dependent on living beings for its interpretation. I believe living beings (our consciousness) are dependent on the universe for its interpretation (consciousness’s own growth) " I agree.
Really excellent thoughts … in my mind anyway.

@ Patrick - I LOVE the Flatliner parable... and happy to see it resurrected here. ;)

@ Sydne - LMAO! I saw that book the other day on Amazon and almost purchased it but I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the geometric shapes ... triangles, squares, lines, etc... ;) I did read one review that said it is a short book (82 pages) but it takes a long time to read because it's a hard read.

So, I started reading a book last night that I had purchased a while back. It's written by an atheist/doctor/scientist mother of 5 children, who has been a physician for 30 years ... who is a skeptic about things non-scientific, and who was raised by two atheists. Long story short... one day she and other family members left the house to run errands. Her son was 18 years old and wanted to know how long they would all be gone... mom assured him they'd be gone around an hour. Five minutes after they left the house her housekeeper called her to say that her son blew his brains out while sitting in a chair at his desk, in his bedroom.

I stayed up until 2:00 am reading just over half the book because I couldn't put it down. Simply put, she wanted to know where her son is after having committed suicide.

Life after death - the after life… Vibrations … consciousness … multi-dimensional … I could go on and on about this book. I find it comforting because it supports my beliefs about when we die and not the other way around.

What is the name of the book Donna?

Silly me… thanks Syd :)

The title of the book is My Son and The Afterlife - Conversations From The Other Side.

A little about the doctor mom ...

She began to question her deep skepticism surrounding the concept of life after death and she asked herself if she really wanted to be "one of those people" who insists that the earth is flat and for her own reasons she refused to acquiesce and clung to her disbelief like a "tenacious bulldog." When her grief over losing her son began to lift a little, many, many things began to happen and her journey from close-mindedness to cautious, open-minded skepticism began and she said all it took was a bit of faith.

She said her "iron box" now has windows and doors... whereas before, it had none. She said that close-minded skeptics like her former self are oftentimes too afraid to trust the research, their intuition or any shred of evidence. If they were to find out the truth it would require a paradigm shift of massive proportions - and that she knows this as a truth because she did it. She said it took courage and strength to trust, to have faith and to be completely open.

She tells the reader that she devoted over half her life (30 years) to private practice, biology, biochemistry, pathology, physiology and other branches of science are practically a part of her DNA. And in fact, science is squeezed so tightly between it all that there was no room for what she once considered nonsense. She claims that, that point of view only served to further reinforce that iron box of skepticism.

I love her and how she had the courage to shed her fears and take the leap of faith which allowed her, her massive paradigm shift - because she needed to know where her son is after he killed himself. I don't envy her reason ... I do however, as a mother, applaud, respect, honor appreciate and embrace it.

It sounds very good Donna, and coming from a person who did not believe in an afterlife, it must have been difficult.

" She said that close-minded skeptics like her former self are oftentimes too afraid to trust the research, their intuition or any shred of evidence. If they were to find out the truth it would require a paradigm shift of massive proportions - and that she knows this as a truth because she did it. She said it took courage and strength to trust, to have faith and to be completely open."

Well stated Donna. Something I am thinking about, do you have to be believe in a God to be believe in an afterlife? My thought is no.

Syd - they were basically her words..not mine :)

Re's God - believing, NO.

I'm only half way through. I'm not getting any sense of the God that Christians believe yet. However ... her son shares that what people believe in THIS life, whether it's being a Baptist (who apparently believe they must first go to hell before getting to heaven) or an atheist... who believes when we die there is nothing - but when they have their first "conscious" thought like, "I am in nothing?" they quickly learn there is something ... like "consciousness" or strict Christians who believe they will go to the pearly gates... they bring with them their beliefs and experience what they believe in the beginning of their afterlife ... but they don't keep it because they realize otherwise quickly.

Edit - Yes, Syd... it seems it was extremely difficult for her to shed her beliefs since being atheist and a scientist is woven into the very fabric of her being. It's almost like... what do I need to do to find out where my son who committed suicide is after he died. Does any of this nonsense of an after life really exist? Her need to know was stronger than anything she ever believed - it is quite a story. Her need to know didn't come out of "nothing"... there were too many instances/happenings to her and others to ultimately deny.

Very interesting Donna, I can't wait to hear more! (:

Here is a video, 'Is There an Afterlife?' Christopher Hitchens Speculates in an animated video. Then there is another video which I have not watched, but I think it would contribute well with our discussion in this thread. Looking at this subject from many view points.
http://www.openculture.com/2014/12/is-there-an-afterlife-christopher-hitchens-speculates-in-an-animated-video.html

To answer your question, Sydne, "do you have to be believe in a God to be believe in an afterlife?" Personally, nope. Whatever "afterlife" awaits me, or none -- I don't know now, and I'm not going to waste much time looking into it. Life is for living in the present.

Donna, very interesting story about the physician/mother! The fact that she was raised an atheist wouldn't have given her much perspective to begin with, however. Very sad story. Not sure I'd recover very well from that.

Patrick, no need to be so condescending, you have a captive audience that keeps flaming those little embers of your "brilliance", you have the floor. Lol, brilliant darling, just brilliant dear chap! so much brilliance floating around here I'm blinded by it, talk about stroking each other, jeeeez!

Bob… Re: “wishful thinking”…

I think you make the assumptions that anyone who thinks this way “wishes” it so. Truth is, I don’t really give a shit. If when I die physically...it’s finito…then so be it. Would it be nice to exist forever?...oh, I don’t know…that would depend on how…right? ;)

In any event…the events that have happened in my mind/my physical life/and science...lean me towards continued thinking that we are most definitely made up of that which is or made the ever changing/ transforming universe we study. And that spark of thought/possibility is all I need to realize that thinking otherwise is the real “pointless” path to take...because it leaves no room for all possible findings.

To me…the only “pointless” way to live on this planet is to not use the mind (through meditation) to contemplate its creation. We have a very powerful mind…its +’s and –‘s of its use have already been proven to us individually and as a whole.
“Testable” findings of our truth may very well always be/stay strictly personal and never capable of mass explanation…well… at least without throwing “miracles” in the mix. ;) ;)

When something exist so unexplained as existence itself…well then…I’ll take that as a sign to respect it for all it may or can be…without pondering “man in the sky w/hands on dials” scenarios.

To say…well, we just haven’t found the scientific answer “yet”…is for me…not enough of a reason to stop utilizing my own mind to delve into itself.

When my mind waits/depends on another’s mind to figure out its own reason for existence…well then…I might as well put a gun to my mind! Lol That, my friend, is the real “pointless” way to live. ;)

But waiting for others to give answers just may be what some people need to help them get through the day and that is fine…
No harm done. ;)))



I’ll be back…Syd, Donna…thank you, glad you enjoyed it. ;)

Btw…Any desire, search, contemplation in this direction has nothing to do with Not living life to its fullest or in the present.
My mind is in me now and I will communicate with it on every level it is capable of teaching me on.
Self-gratification comes in many forms. ;)

good luck with all that Lawrence, you have as much of a chance as Shakyamuni Buddha.

meaning what?

I finished the video I posted, and it reminded me of this thread, different views from opposite sides of the street. Well worth the time in my opinion.

Do You really think your going to think yourself into discovering the infinite with your finite mind?

we are absolutely capable of doing anything we know we can do. and why do you consider our minds are finite? i would think that they are limitless otherwise how do people keep learning new things and expanding their knowledge? our brains alone are capable of far more than we even know about. but then of course, i'm the one who does not believe in death and that we move from one dimension to another at will. if my mind was finite, i would not be able to do that.

I agree Sophi. Actually our brains do not necessarily house our consciousness.

If our minds where infinite don't you think we would have figured out all of our human problems? an infinite mind to me is GOD, not man, man has an infinite capacity to think he is God, put not much beyond that. is not our intellect measured my finite numbers, as in I.Q test? our mind can not even calculate a math problem like a calculator, what is infinite about our mind? I think what might lead some to believe that our minds our infinite is that we are made in God's likeness but we are not God.

so god has a mind? that seems weird. are we seeing god in man's likeness again?

Mario, if you do not believe you can expand your mind to limitless possibilities, of course you will not. remember that word faith? if you have faith that your mind and spirit are limitless they are. its nothing to do with intellect or math calculations. those are human limitations, like time and space (which do not really exist) that have been created by humans to make humans comfortable.

ever heard the expression, "let me blow your mind?" well that does not refer to a blow job.

Sophi said blow job. (; Lol!

I'm sorry but I just can't buy into that. If it were true then why bother with bodies in the first place?

Sophi, such a lady like response, Thanks! but not thanks!

But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? -- Mario

But is that not what prayer implies? "Hey god.. there are all these people in Africa that are dying... please help them amen."

1. Don't you think he already knows that?
2. And if so.. don't you think it impertinent to question his motives?

ladylike? what century did you grow up in?

i did Sydne because i felt that if i did not point it out, Mario's mind would go to the wrong place ;)

they are convenient in this lifetime, Bob.

But don't you hear how all that sounds like Mario's logic? ;O)

Bob, who talks to God like that? I certainly don't.

The Lord’s Prayer is a prayer the Lord Jesus taught His disciples in Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4. Matthew 6:9-13 says, “This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'“ Many people misunderstand the Lord’s Prayer to be a prayer we are supposed to recite word for word. Some people treat the Lord’s Prayer as a magic formula, as if the words themselves have some specific power or influence with God.

The Bible teaches the opposite. God is far more interested in our hearts when we pray than He is in our words. “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Matthew 6:6-7). In prayer, we are to pour out our hearts to God (Philippians 4:6-7), not simply recite memorized words to God.

The Lord’s Prayer should be understood as an example, a pattern, of how to pray. It gives us the “ingredients” that should go into prayer. Here is how it breaks down. “Our Father in heaven” is teaching us whom to address our prayers to—the Father. “Hallowed be your name” is telling us to worship God, and to praise Him for who He is. The phrase “your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” is a reminder to us that we are to pray for God’s plan in our lives and the world, not our own plan. We are to pray for God’s will to be done, not for our desires. We are encouraged to ask God for the things we need in “give us today our daily bread.” “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” reminds us to confess our sins to God and to turn from them, and also to forgive others as God has forgiven us. The conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer, “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” is a plea for help in achieving victory over sin and a request for protection from the attacks of the devil.

So, again, the Lord’s Prayer is not a prayer we are to memorize and recite back to God. It is only an example of how we should be praying. Is there anything wrong with memorizing the Lord’s Prayer? Of course not! Is there anything wrong with praying the Lord’s Prayer back to God? Not if your heart is in it and you truly mean the words you say. Remember, in prayer, God is far more interested in our communicating with Him and speaking from our hearts than He is in the specific words we use. Philippians 4:6-7 declares, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Lords-prayer.html#ixzz3Q9xxKGS1

Sophi, I grew up in this century, and Morality dear lady never goes out of style or class.

I was not talking about "the lord's prayer".. I was talking about those who pray to God to cure little johnny of his cancer...

I don't do that, but if I had a sick son, I would ask in prayer for his intervention, as he promises : These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

Bob,wouldn't you take him up on his word?

So all the billions of people who ask for world peace every day since forever.... means nothing to him?

What you ask has to be in his will. "Thy kingdom come thy will be done."

Then the billions of believers should stop praying for peace, since it is never granted?

God, answers prayers on his time line, since he knows what's best for us, sometimes not answering what we ask for is his answer.

Bob you need to scroll back quite a long way to see where i posted on what i believe in regards to the afterlife etc. you may have missed it. i can repeat it if you would like to know.

morality, Mario. does that mean you can say blow job in your song of solomon quote but because i am female i can't use the phrase in order to make sure you didn't get confused? what kind of morality is that? skewed in your favour. there is no difference between a woman and a man saying blow job in 2015. unless you're Mike Huckabee. and surely in this day and age, you've heard woman comment like this before. i think you're suddenly unnecessarily prude and probably because i said it and did not give you the opportunity to go there with my comment regarding blowing ones mind. and while we're on the topic of morality, shouldn't you be minding what you say with all your anal and farting references in mixed company as you're suddenly so conscious of what we say? i don't know how many times in these discussions i've seen you write, "blow it out your ass" to others and you've said it to me. mr. morality = mr. hypocrite.

No I read it... but I probably should go back and read it again ;O)

But there are a few different versions of the continuing conscientiousness theory... so I wasn't specifically talking about yours. But most seem to rely on "faith"

Well Bob there are those other billions who don't believe in God so if those who do believe and pray for peace could have a shot for peace if the others would join. A higher conscience so to speak. (; If everyone is in on it, it probably would happen.

Sophi, hahah, now you made me laugh! prude, just goes to show you, you don't have any idea who I am or what I'm about.So much is lost in this typing kind of communication, so much.

Btw, I'm a follower of Jesus, I never said I was him.

Sydne, check your stats, Billions of non believer's, really? source please, last time checked atheism is on the decline world wide. Please don't over state the amount of atheist as they are but a fraction of the amount of believers both in the USA and in the World.

mr morality = mr hypocrite.

i did not say you were prude, i said you were being prude in reference to my comment about a blow job. twisting things again. and you're right, i don't have any idea who you are (though i do certainly have my doubts about you) and equally, you have no idea who i am or what i'm about but you do like to insult me a lot and make things up in your mind. please continue. it obviously makes you happy in your god fearing way to twist what i say and insult me. i'm not one to deny you your happiness however futile it seems.

by the way, where did i even suggest you were jesus christ. ohhhhhhhhhh you made that up too! good one. hahaha

"Do You really think your going to think yourself into discovering the infinite with your finite mind?"

First off, as Shopi said...who told you your mind/consciousness was finite...a book filled with stories written by men?

Second...No I don't 'think" myself into anything...I allow my mind not to think and receive ...as opposed to the path you took....which was buying a book and following its words...when they are useful for you, of course. I say that because, many of your statements in no way represent the character of a loving God.

But lets take a moment and break down your logic;

"If our minds where infinite don't you think we would have figured out all of our human problems? an infinite mind to me is GOD, not man, man has an infinite capacity to think he is God, put not much beyond that. is not our intellect measured my finite numbers, as in I.Q test? our mind can not even calculate a math problem like a calculator, what is infinite about our mind? I think what might lead some to believe that our minds our infinite is that we are made in God's likeness but we are not God.

So you're capable of having that logic when it comes to determining another's mind's/consciousness's capabilities...but you are not capable of breaking down (logically) the stories of the bible?

And besides the points Bob just mentioned...
Don't you think that running out of food and wine at a wedding warrants less of a time to perform a miracle than the many plights human's have encountered since that wedding?

Don't you think that ignoring that and many other facts by saying..."who am I to say what God should do" and all the "he knows what's best for us" bs...is living life inspired by fear of not following that which once helped you?

Don't you think that it's possible that all of the human problems you speak of can be direct results of a lack of desire in understanding ourselves (mind/consciousness) and more of a desire in outside/material self-gratification?
Not to mention the many problems we have caused by religions and their fear tactics used to control one's mind? The very "mind" we speak of now!!

And since when are numbers "finite"...can't another number always be added to the previous number?

And there certainly are people on this planet who can calculate numbers in their mind as easy as a calculator.

There are people on this planet that can tell you what happened on any day in their past...and what day of the week it was...by just giving them a date.


“good luck with all that Lawrence, you have as much of a chance as Shakyamuni Buddha.”

Your a cocky guy, Mario...with a whole lot to learn...and maybe someday when you are through bowing down to your lord...while at the same time standing in superiority over your fellow man...then maybe you will put aside your fear of "thinking" other than what the book told you to think.
(btw how you bow to your lord without "following" any belief system...as you sated in another thread...is beyond me).

Mario...remember this...I've always thought along these lines from a very young age (before 5)...None of my thoughts were a by product of "needing" help in any way. Thankfully, I've had a life filled with love and no traumatic experiences.

Your need to get off of drugs is what led you to the Bible and your thankfulness in it helping you is what keeps you bowing. Nothing wrong with that!
But Never underestimate another's abilities or the ability of our mind's ability to handle the same and more…without following words in a book.
And Never tell me what my chances are in achieving what you know very little-nothing about.



Bob...
“I'm sorry but I just can't buy into that. If it were true then why bother with bodies in the first place?”

Why bother having stars if they are only meant to explode? All birth start someplace/somehow…have patience...you may someday be just that which you feel you should have been in the first place ;)

That’s what I love about us humans and our mind…we want it to be as we want it to be…when we want it to be…yet we hardly have a clue as to why we have it and all of what it can do. ;))

Lawrence, I won't spend a lot of time responding to your psychological mumbo jumbo, what you confuse as cockyness is what you lack and it's knowing what to stand for, I doubt very much you being Italian came up with these crazy ideas all on your own at the age of 5. Please!

I have been a Christian most of my life, please don't attempt to psycho analyze me, all you know about my life is the little bit I allowed you to view, you have know idea why I believe and no real understanding of what I believe so don't be so presumptuous. You are on this path of new wave thinking that is totally outdated and quite unimpressive if you ask me.

Your attempts at eastern thinking is totally out of whack, take it from someone who's been there and done that. Ha!

"Thankfully, I've had a life filled with love and no traumatic experiences."

To this I say " For he makes his sun rise on the evil and the good, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. ..
Better yet in Wordly terms, it ain't over yet, the fat lady has not sung yet, don't let that make you feel all comfy, their will be a judgement day! O mejor dicho no cantes victoria todavia!

Lawrence.. I am not really arguing that you are wrong.. but my gut tells me you are... But of course that has no value. ;O)

Although there are more possible neuron connection then there are stars in the galaxy.. there is a finite number. The old theory that we only use 10% of our brain power is not true. We use it all. There are no idle brain cells.. there are no untapped brain functions.

Bob, maybe we'll learn that we don't have to be limited to just our brains except in this lifetime and this body.

maybe, but would take a leap of faith... no?

maybe, maybe, maybe this and maybe that! Do any of you have one leg to stand on? what a sad state to be in a world where every thing ends up being one big maybe, maybe one day you will come to your senses and stop fighting what God instinctively gave you to know for sure with no maybe's.

"I agree Sophi. Actually our brains do not necessarily house our consciousness."

Ditto to both - seriously. I started to write a bunch of stuff and realized I wrote too much and that most wouldn't care about it one way or another so I deduced it down to something short and simple ... l believe that our higher consciousness is at the very seat of our soul - Gently tucked away in the soul, but peel back the layer of soul and our spirit is released - pure energy.

Donna...what is pure energy??? is there such a thing?

http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/04/q-what-is-energy-what-is-pure-energy-like/

better question ,and where did this energy come from? and who made it?

Bob,

Yes, I believe there is such a thing as pure energy. It is what we are when our bodies die off and we are set free. :) If you're looking for a scientific explanation... you're asking the wrong gal ;)

Mario - you can be so sophomoric. Really.

Edit @ Bob - Don't mean to ignore from here forward but my dinner bell just rang and it's long overdue. See ya soon.

There you go Donna. I might add, no religion will take you there, its a natural event. We are energy, there is no stopping it. How it manifests I have said, I frankly don't know, but I do love, "Gently tucked away in the soul, but peel back the layer of soul and our spirit is released - pure energy." Beautiful!

Um Mario....thats not nice, be respectful.

here is some more pure Argentine Energy <br> <br><div style='text-align:center'><script type='text/javascript' src='http://pshared.5min.com/Scripts/PlayerSeed.js?sid=281&width=480&height=401&playList=518200130'></script><br/></div>

Thank you Sydne. Dinnertime... Later :)

Edit - Ohhh...exactly!! No religious ticket to ride, so to speak ;)

Hey, it's about saving our planet! Science!

just having some fun, jeeez ,Sorry Donna.

Mario calm down my friend. We are a diverse group, and I think of our discussion as enlightening.

You as an awesome cook, when company is invited shoving the food down their throats forcibly, they won't come back again no matter how good the food tastes.

So I guess I can't present what I think is pure energy even if that's what we are talking about? next time I'll ask permission, but isn't that what diversity is not everyone believing the same thing? hhmmm

or should we debate what is coming out the cows butt is energy or not? I say it is pure energy! stinky, but very pure.Lol

Absolutely this is what diversity is. We come from different paths, we walk different paths, but we can't make people walk our path. Certainly we can share what we believe, why we believe, there is nothing wrong with that. I know there has been a lot of give and take here, not just you Mario, many of us. We should all be mindful of how we present our experience, and our structure. We all get caught up in proving ones point, of course we do, because it is meaningful to us. Yet at the end of day, more than likely no one will be persuaded, but there is always a morsel of thought of a word or sentence we tuck away for another day.

Debate on what comes out of cows butts, is good for our sort of gross thread, our freshman in HighSchool thread so to speak.

But Sydne it's science, what could be juvenile about the advancement of science that has the potential to protect the ozone layer, even if it comes out the butt of a cow.

As much as I would agree with the above statement, I will say it again here, nothing of what I post has ever been to persuade or convince or to convert anyone to what I believe ,none the less, I will present what I believe with as much vigor, passion, dedication,honesty and integrity as I can, even if it offends another, because aside from sharing what I believe, I must present it, in it's truth and in an uncompromising manner.

Mario...
Little bit you allowed me to view?????...are you fucking kidding me????...lol...all you do , day in and day out is tell us about yourself!!

Your father was a priest...but he had "something" happen to him which turned him/then you, away from Christianity...you later went towards Zen/other beliefs...but they, apparently, didn't offer you what you were seeking nor able to keep you from abusing drugs...so...after you had a friend who messed up his life due to drugs...you went back to Christianity which thankfully helped you not follow in your friends footsteps. You had mucho wives...you tell us what you’re eating…how you piss, what you think of farts…and on and on and on. lol.

Whether it’s all true or not…I have no idea…but…
Is there anything I just said you haven't said? I mean...I can't state it word for word...but is that not the gist of what you have said?

"You are on this path of new wave thinking that is totally outdated and quite unimpressive if you ask me."

Outdated? Unimpressive?...lol…Why has it been proven wrong already…Is there a judging panel? By who, you perhaps?

You call what I write crazy????...as you spew your illogical scripture day in and day out??? Enough…lol

Btw…Here's how loving your character has become since reading the Bible all these years;

I say to you “"Thankfully, I've had a life filled with love and no traumatic experiences."

And your loving Christian response is to tell me…

” it ain't over yet, the fat lady has not sung yet, don't let that make you feel all comfy, their will be a judgement day! O mejor dicho no cantes victoria todavia!

You consistently convey that you are as far from what a Christian is meant to be than any Christian I have ever interacted with on here.
And kiss my ass with your doom and gloom outlook for my life and the lives of all us who don't think like you....
lol...I mean really...how superior to us all do you actually think you are??




Bob...
I understand...and as long as you understand we all have a different "gut"...it really doesn't matter.;)
I make no argument...like I said above...they're only thoughts. ;)

Interesting perspective Lawrence minus calling out Mario as someone who has a lot to learn when we all do for that matter.

Lawrence, I wouldn't come close to your ass if it was the last ass on earth much less kiss it. LOL Now, to feeling superior no way! Because this is what I truly believe, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Btw: don't ever chose short story writing as a career, you wouldn't sell a single copy I think, you attempted to condense my life to one poorly written paragraph with bits of truths and made up stuff and conjecture and falsehoods, so much for your infinite mind theory, we see it clearly in action and under performing in this demonstration of yours.

Thank you Lisa, you are always a breath of fresh air when you enter the room!

Oh, yes, let's exploit the poor cow even further, lol. We already raise them to eat (not by me), so why not raise them as gasbags, too? How disgusting!

Hey Patrica we have the Green movement to blame for that! lol

Yes, Lisa...we most certainly all do...which is what I've essentially been saying here...but I was addressing he who doesn't think he does...everything he needs to know is in the book.



Mario...enough with your baby bs. What in my "poorly written paragraph"...did I make up?

was your father a priest?...Yes
did "something" happen while he was a priest which took him away from priesthood?...Yes.
were you influenced by your fathers decision...as far as Christianity?...Yes
did you study Zen, etc?...Yes
did your friend have a very big drug problem?...Yes
did you also have a drug problem and wish not to end up like your friend?...Yes
did getting back into the bible and Christianity help you kick the drug habit?...Yes
do you tell us what you're making for lunch/dinner more often than not?...Yes
did you have multiple wives?...Yes
do you only pee standing?...Yes (lol)
do you enjoy posting fart stuff?...Yes

All of the above comes from what you have said...so unless you lied...please tell me what I said that is... "made up stuff and conjecture and falsehoods"

the funniest thing about you is...much of what truly is "falsehood"...you take as truth...and many of the truths you hear from us...you take as "made up stuff/falsehoods/conjecture".
priceless.

I take it back...You're not "cocky"...you're a special kind of guy.
lol

No
I don't no
no
yes
I didn't quantify it that way
yes and no
no
yes
yes
yes and proud of it ,unlike Patrick who is a sitter.lol
yes, farts always funny

One thing about being meat, is that we eat meat. It's a terrible thing, but if you hike in the wild, you learn really quick that you are a snack to some terrible beasts. We are like the beasts with more intelligence and the difference is not that we are intelligent because they are very intelligent as well, but not like us. The difference is that we have evolved to become more than meat, as we can live outside of our bodies. We are not subjected completely to the physical. I have learned this; it's a very difficult lesson. When it's your turn, I'll want to hear from you. Many people tell me their stories and I don't laugh at them.

Well said, Lawrence!

Your comments attest to the fact that the Monsignor is one-hundred-eighty degrees out of phase with reality...and that goes for his own, turbulent inner reality, as well.

Lisa believes that we humans are luminous beings, but offers nothing with which to substantiate her belief; metaphysics wrapped up in a Sunday dress of religion.

your "no" 's are bs and you know it. Your playing with semantics...the title for your father wasn't "priest" but some other term which essentially means the same. Perhaps in the seminary.

btw...lol...Instead of you giving me your wise ass comebacks...you should be happy that I read and remembered what you wrote!



Lucky us...eh, Patrick ;)

Lawrence you read and remembered what I wrote because you are my student and don't forget it. Lol Unlike me who seldom has a need to read the BS you write much less store it in my brain and have it take and occupy valuable space.

there you go being presumptuous again.

You and Patrick, the sitter, hahaha make a darling couple!

Why evolution is true


https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/oliver-sacks-debunks-near-death-and-out-of-body-experiences-and-religious-revelations/

Oh, nooooo, it's to late Bob, tomorrow!

Lisa I happen to believe we are not just physical beings, we are also spiritual beings, I would not laugh at what you suggested, Patrick, well you know how he loves to belittle anything he does not believe in, it's the fragile ego he has. he must have taken the fact that you called him high and mighty in the Quirks thread oh to serious and has a need to lash out, but trust me he's a harmless "sitter" grandote por gusto. Lol

When I want to know something about you...all I have to do is ask. Think about it.

lol...Valuable Space??? oh yes...you must fit a few more bible interpretations in there...you wouldn't want to be left out of heaven on a technicality!!

Tell me "teacher"...when you get to heaven...who you going to act superior towards...someone who knew one less bible quote than you on earth? lol

If I were you, I wouldn't be worried about my salvation or about when I go to heaven, you have your hands full still trying to figure out your own Pal!

my afterlife will be as a cadaver in the ucsd medical school.

Lawrence, did you ever figure out who Alicia was? I have a hunch who that was. haha

Poor you Bob.

Hey doctors have to practice on the real thing. ;O)

If you were me??
See...You just can't stop warning people, can you?

I feel for the intelligent, loving Christian group we have here on faa...cause they have you as their loudest spokesperson.



(edited; no more time for tit for tat, what needed to dry before I proceed is done...back to work;)

I don't think I have to substantiate how I feel, Patrick. I'm really not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Bob, it's funny, I'm going to med school. I'm signed up. LOL!

Lawrence, you just can't let the Christian thing go,can you? You would benefit much from reading the article about the Atheist that I posted in the other thread for Patrick, yeah I know your not an Atheist but it has some very relative information about guys just like you that have a "thing" about Christians. I say let it go and focus on your meditation, and if you want to be of the lot of men that sit and pee like Patrick, well go to it lad..

Btw, what you consider intelligent and real "christian", coming from an apostate catholic that you are, means nothing to me.But you do love to speculate and judge religious groups and never miss an opportunity to take your jabs, I wonder if that is viewed highly in the eastern religious/pop culture new wave movement your always talking about, your certainly no enlightened Guru spokesman, far from it friend, but keep at it, nirvana is not for the faint of heart.

Absolutely this is what diversity is. We come from different paths, we walk different paths, but we can't make people walk our path. Certainly we can share what we believe, why we believe, there is nothing wrong with that. I know there has been a lot of give and take here, not just you Mario, many of us. We should all be mindful of how we present our experience, and our structure. We all get caught up in proving ones point, of course we do, because it is meaningful to us. Yet at the end of day, more than likely no one will be persuaded, but there is always a morsel of thought of a word or sentence we tuck away for another day.

Mario, I did not write that for finger exercise.

We all know you are devout Christian, you are passionate in your stated belief we are all well aware of that. However you don't own the patent on passion here. We all feel strongly in our beliefs and our disbeliefs, that too should be respected. I know you feel you are not respected for your Christian faith, but you get what you give.

I am going to digress from this thread for the moment and share a personal story. Years ago as a student in Education For Ministry there was a fellow student who pissed me off big time. I couldn't stand their point of view, and if I could with the slight of hand I would disparage their belief system. One day as I prepared to
go to EFM, I thought about this person and how much I did not like them. A thought came to me, "Sydne you know this person had a mother who loved him, just like you." For some reason it clicked for me, it didn't matter why I disliked this person, but it did matter in how I treated him. While we never became close friends, or friends, the disdain I felt for him fell away. I found we did have some common ground and that was we both had been loved, whether it be a mother, father, friends, a pet whatever, it was enough to change how I saw this person. I changed my approach to him as did he change his approach to me.
It made EFM a better place for everyone to learn and discuss. To this day I am mindful of this lesson, as I still do encounter people that make my skin crawl, but I am always reminded of that little epiphany, its done well by me.

So, having said that lets move this thread back on track please, "Is There an Afterlife?"

And, I thought this thread was a discussion for the "afterlife."

Edit - Sorry Syd. I got to the bottom of what I missed since I was last here and your comment wasn't there....................... yet. lol... :)

Well "IF" you believe I evolution, then you know we are not "special". If our evolutionary ancestors didn't have an afterlife, why do you think we should. There is no evolutionary mechanism for it. It would not have a survival of the fittest benefit. It would have no impact on perpetuating the species.

The thing that is different about is our greater brain function that has made us "aware" of our mortality. Being aware that we that because we are alive will die. We needed... let's say "a reason to live". Those of our ancestors that "believed" that were more likely to persevere and raise families "knowing" that one day they will all be together in the "afterlife". Those with out that belief maybe were to procreate for various reasons.

So we are perhaps here because evolution has chosen those with a predisposed genetic belief system

I posted a link above that I will repeat here...

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/oliver-sacks-debunks-near-death-and-out-of-body-experiences-and-religious-revelations/

Mario said to Lawrence, "Your attempts at eastern thinking is totally out of whack, take it from someone who's been there and done that. Ha! "

I couldn't disagree with you more, Mario. Lawrence makes perfect sense to me most of the time and I've formally studied eastern religions as well as years of private reading and meditation. I think he's spot on with his contributions regarding an afterlife and I think it is you who is most likely out of whack with it, if you can't understand what he is saying most of the time.

Edit - Sydne. Great story and thanks for sharing it. There is always at least one lesson to learn in any given situation ... you learned yours well. It could be said that yours was a lesson in "seeing" with love - for yourself and the guy you felt at odds with. Doesn't mean you ended up loving him, for sure ;)

What little I know of Eastern philosophy, i agree with it far more than many of the Christian and i might add very hypocritical behaviorisms.

Thanks Donna. (:

Bob I am not sure what you mean by this, "Well "IF" you believe I evolution, then you know we are not "special". If our evolutionary ancestors didn't have an afterlife, why do you think we should."

Who is to say they didn't experience an afterlife? They were energy and energy does not cease.

I'm just going to piggyback on what Sydne said since my thoughts ran along the same line. Energy!

We don't know that they didn't experience an afterlife... In the Hindu religion they believe in reincarnation (death, afterlife, rebirth, recycle) and that given a person's spiritual standing (karmic lessons during their lifetimes) they could be reincarnated into say... a cockroach. I don't know that they're wrong ... or right. But, they have been practicing their religion for thousands of years... I believe in reincarnation. When christianity was born they did too. The catholics believed in it's earliest days... the church shut it down because if people believed in reincarnation.... why follow the teachings of a church?

I believe in the conservation of energy. But energy is not life. Energy is not thought... though consumes energy and convert into heat.. heat is not consciousness. Organic matter is converted into heat via bacterial decomposition. I do not see how you link energy to consciousness.

Pease explain ;O)

I decided to post links to 6 of the 12 world religions, and their belief structure as pertaining to afterlife. Always interesting, always something to be learned.

http://www.sptimmortalityproject.com/background/buddhist-views-of-the-afterlife/
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_death.asp
http://personaltao.com/teachings/taoism/the-afterlife/
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm
http://www.patheos.com/Library/Confucianism/Beliefs/Afterlife-and-Salvation.html
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Believe does not equal reality. How does reincarnation start?

Thanks for the links Sydne.. I only scanned them to see what they were about.

You left out the Mormon beliefs.... they are hard to find because only the leaders are privy to them, because only the leader have an afterlife.. and oh what an after life. They get their own planet to be God of.. only the men of course become gods.. but they do have wives to make babies which are the new souls to be placed into the babies created by the humans of their new planet.

I do understand the attraction of a belief in an afterlife. I also see how it can be used to control the lives of followers of a religion.

Agreed, belief does not equal this reality...

Hmm... in the simplest terms I'd say reincarnation/transmigration of the soul or in latin, "entering the flesh again" begins when we as pure energy decide to enter this dimension for another "go" as they say. ;)

About religion, I'll go back to Hinduism. Their religion believes they will live thousands of lifetimes... Hindus believe that at the very core of their souls. At some point they won't need to reincarnate ... and they will achieve that only through karma.

Because of his aversion to sitting on the commode, it is has been reported that Monsignor Mario takes a dump standing up; he simply drops his drawers and asks his beloved 'sky-god' to guide his stool into the nearest toilet bowl. And after each dump, he exclaims, "Praise the Lord...another miracle!"

It's also been reported that, due to such life-sustaining miracles as this, Monsignor Mario is very close to achieving total consciousness.

Speaking of miracles, I would like someone here to offer a rational explanation as to why MM's 'sky-god' has yet to perform the miracle of answering the amputee's prayer to restore his missing limb by regrowing it for him.

Also, since many of you here apparently are confuddled as to the difference betwixt a person's belief and that which we cavalierly call knowledge, I very soon will attempt to clarify the distinctions that keep them at arm's length from one another...which also happens to be an important safety tip for surviving active participation in this forum.

It’s come to my attention that Monsignor Mario is very – almost obsessively - fond of throwing down the gauntlet whenever he feels that he and his precious religion have been threatened, or worse...offended; sky-god forbid!

Likewise, it should come as no surprise to anyone that I feel obliged to pick up that gauntlet and use it to slap the living bat-snot out of him.

But first…as promised, a little footnote about how to recognize the distinction betwixt belief and knowledge:


Belief is the mental attitude that some proposition is true rather than false, but it should not be mistaken for knowledge.

Knowledge is something we come to know only when it becomes a justified, true belief. So, in order for Monsignor Mario to make the claim that he truly 'knows' some proposition (let’s say, ‘X’), all of the following criteria must be met:

1) Monsignor Mario believes X;
2) X is true;
3) Monsignor Mario has good reasons to believe X

Exclude the first axiom from the equation, and the Monsignor will likely believe X because it is true and he’s felt around in the dark for enough good reasons to justify believing it, but it’s even more likely that MM has made an error for believing something else in its stead.

If the second axiom is omitted, then the Monsignor has invested himself in an erroneous belief.

But…if the third axiom is left out, MM has made nothing more than a lucky guess, rather than actually coming to know something.

"Ya folla?" - Quint, from Steven Spielberg's masterpiece, JAWS

OK.. lets see if I can as the question using different words ;O)

Without knowing how the other religions account for the first humans... [ meaning I don't know what they are ]

Boom we have a planet. If we have a religion that claims reincarnation... we have to assume they have some type of belief of evolution... you can, they say be the reincarnation of a cockroach.... But no cockroach has yet reached a level to be granted being reincarnated as a human, and there has yet to be any humans how are they born as the first human?

Please forgive the awkward examples.... and also my "devotion" to logic.. but I can't help it ;O)

Oh Patrick, Donna's peach you are a pistol this mid morning, you are a pistol today! (;

Bob, I believe in the conservation of energy. But energy is not life. Energy is not thought... though consumes energy and convert into heat.. heat is not consciousness. Organic matter is converted into heat via bacterial decomposition. I do not see how you link energy to consciousness.

Pease explain ;O)

Great question, my response,
What is believed if the body/brain creates consciousness, then when the body dies consciousness ceases to exist. But if the body receives consciousness from another source, like the way a cable box receives signals from satellites, then consciousness would not cease after death. So in a sense consciousness has no time and space, it is non-local in the same sense Quantum objects are non local. In that sense the energy we "blow out" after we die would still be connected to its source.

As far as reincarnation is concerned, I really do not qualify for answering your question, I just don't know enough about it. I can only speculate.

Too many quantum leaps of faith, Bob and Sydne, as well as too many presumptions.

To be reincarnated requires a vehicle in which the consciousness may ride; define this thing called, 'soul.'

From whence did it come, or from what did it evolve?

And which came first - the physical body or the soul? Chicken or the egg?

Feel free to speculate...you know, try using your imagination. After all, we're artists, are we not?

Quantum Leap.. I used to watch that show. ;O)

Well yea, Patrick

That is what I was saying awhile back, that this talk about energy and dimensions sounds all too similar to Mario's circular reasoning.

thanks for your post sorting us all out Sydne. it needed to be said. i was thinking about our posts last night and wondering how much we keep our other members away because of the back and forth that goes on which is off topic and often verging on high school.

Donna, i agree, Lawrence makes so much sense.

Patrick is always a pistol! :)

and just to add, practising what we preach or believe in is so much more effective than repeatedly bashing each other over the head for our differing beliefs in our childish need to be right. i love to learn what you all believe. i do not want to be told repeatedly and rudely that i am wrong for my own beliefs. i find that disrespectful.

yes, i believe in other lives. i've expressed this many times. but i do not see them as after or before. rather, they and we exist in other dimensions without time or space.

I feel that the need to believe in an afterlife stems from our own egocentric sense of self-importance. We're too important to die... right? I don't think that way, but if it gives comfort to others, that's a good thing. We all need ways to cope.

that's an interesting take on it, Patricia. i do not believe what i believe because i need a way to cope. i believe what i believe because i have very deep faith. i suspect that is true for many others too. i don't think we are too important to die. i've just never, since i was a child believed in death as such. i believe we shed our bodies because they are no longer necessary to us.

Some claim they're not afraid of death, while in the same breath, they express a morbid fear of the consequences of eternal damnation, because they have no idea whether or not they've proven themselves worthy of salvation; truly, that is a perverse POV.

I confess that I'm unafraid of death, though I do have qualms about experiencing extreme pain as I lay dying...who wouldn't?


"Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end." - Richard Dawkins

I find yours very interesting, as well, Carolyn. Guess I don't really know what deep faith means, so it's hard for me to relate.

Donna/Carolyn...thank you...I appreciate it always. ;) Donna...I love the "most of the time" part. lol
Sophi...sorry...but just one more schoolyard talk here below ;)


Bob…
I read some where that this idea of reincarnation started (long ago) when people saw their hereditary traits in their children…and that’s when the custom of naming children after grandparents/ancestors started.



Mario…
This is essentially what Syd said and how lovely she said it…But I say it like this:

Get it through you thick fucking skull...I don’t have a “thing” against Christians…I have a dislike for pampas, condescending Christian (any religion/person) behavior. You are NOT a "Christian" when you don’t behave like a “Christian”…and when that happens…you’re just another blabbering scripture plastering man trying to show your superiority over those who don’t read/follow your interpretation of the Bible.

Face it Mario…in your eyes…all who don’t believe as you are doomed…we are SINNERS…and we haven’t a clue what horror lies in store for us. And that sentiment, which you carry in your mind and heart, seeps out of you on a daily basis here…and no matter whether you sprinkle it with cockiness or sincerity…it still tastes like shit. And one would think, from a person who loves cooking as much as you do…that you would stop feeding us your shit!

Now…since you love to constantly tell me/us what I should read/do/watch for my benefit…why don’t you head on over to Bob’s Bible proof thread and post what he asks for…I’m looking forward to reading it….for my benefit.

Btw…I never said I was or insinuated that I was an “enlightened Guru”…but thanks for the association. ;)

For me religion really has nothing to do with life after death.

Death is a natural occasion of an evolving journey into the universe and its yet unknown possibilities.-
Sydne Archambault (;

This discussion is as disjointed as a cut-up chicken, just laying there - waiting to be boiled in oil.

On a side-note, in my precocious youth, I remember reading about an experiment that was performed on a dying man.

He was positioned on a large platform scale that accurately measured his weight.

The man's weight was recorded before and after his death, such that the researchers could determine...'weight' for it...whether or not the 'soul' has a measurable mass.

The results were inconclusive - meaning, they didn't get the outcome they'd hoped for - but prior to this reading, I remember being told that when a person dies, they piss themselves and vacate their bowels, and so, in my young, naive mind I thought this was the reason their experiment had failed...the man's urine and feces had skewed the results!

(...he said, with a nod and a wink to my good friend and 'Brother of the Brush,' Lawrence.)

Most of our threads tend to wander, its hard to keep folks on track, including myself.

deep faith means for me an unshaken faith in regards to what i believe to be true. Patricia. it means that i am beyond questioning my beliefs and seek only to expand and learn more about them. it also means i don't feel the need to convert anyone else to my beliefs and i am accepting of everyone else beliefs as long as they too are true to what they believe. it means that i wake every day with a sense of joy and yes, i also believe in miracles.

Lawrence, i do think you are enlightened. you express things i do not know how to express myself and very succinctly.

Sophi wrote this: "It also means I don't feel the need to convert anyone else to my beliefs and I am accepting of everyone else beliefs as long as they too are true to what they believe."

Brilliantly conceived, beautifully written!

To all of you who insist on being hostile, an act like a pack of blood thirsty wolves at the slightest mention of Jesus Christ or the mention of Christianity, I remain unfazed by your constant criticism. Actually I would wonder if maybe you received the wrong message if it wasn't for your rejection of what I have shared with you here. Your arguments, your profanity, your mocking, your minimizing, your excuses and rejection of the gospel and all your reasoning has already been addressed thousands of years ago by one wiser than me, and so I rejoice to know I am in good company. We live in a society that is outwardly critical and openly hostile to Christians, in some places we are being killed for the faith we profess, in many places it is banned and forbidden and punishable by death. But our lord foretold us of all these things thousands of years ago, it does not surprise us, or discourage us, quite the contrary, it strengthens and serves to prove the truth of the things spoken by our Lord.

well i guess sometimes things fall on deaf ears. thanks for trying to get our discussion back on track, Sydne. now then, the afterlife ...

Sophi, sorry to inform you but the afterlife is reserved for Christians only, some 2 billion of us, for the rest of you that refuse to believe, it's not looking good! But don't fret, you can always make a reservation any time prior to your death.

that's what you believe and i give you permission to believe it, Mario. it seems to make you feel better to try to make us wrong instead of, like a true man of your chosen god, allowing others to follow their own beliefs.

and ps. thank you Patrick.

Oh boy!

most of us got it, Sydne, don't despair. now everyone, the afterlife ...

Why would I "refuse to believe"?? I have no interest in your religion.

oops. sorry, late response to Mario's post.

Jesus never preached follow your own belief, he preach follow me "HIM" of course, nobody is forcing you to agree with me, it's more than evident that most here reject this Truth, and when you reject this truth you are actually rejecting God, he allows you to do that, but it comes at a price. For the wage of Sin is Death, but the gift of God is eternal Life (your afterlife) to those that believe ,John 3:16 , For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that who ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

The Monsignor wrote: "...you can always make a reservation any time prior to your death."

Help me out with this one, Mon-Baby...does that reservation include seventy-two virgins with a deluxe penthouse suite, or would that be extra, and if I convert within the next 10 minutes, do I also get room service free-of-charge?

room service! that's expecting a lot Patrick. you might get a berth on Noah's ark though. ;)

oh, no that's the other religion with several billion believers you also love to hate!

Nobody is hating other religions. You made that up. What I hate is being preached to and bullied into buying into something I have no interest in because I might "suffer" for it if I don't.

Mario, what you have to come to understand is that we are not so much rejecting your truth because i think i can say for everyone here that we have no issues with you believing what you choose to believe. we are merely continuing on our own paths and that is not your concern nor should it be a reason to heap hellfire and damnation on us. you are not responsible for us or our beliefs. only for your own. just as i am not responsible for anyone else's beliefs, only my own.

Go look up the word facetious, Monsignor Mario, then look up the word gullible; you'll find a picture of yourself staring right back at you.

Lawrence.. are those virgins male or female.... oh never mind I prefer someone with experience. ;O)

Okay folks, lets keep on track, before this thread goes south. Refrain from the name calling, and don't make me micro moderate, whatever that means. I ran out of digital chill pills, so I am going to go get some, when I get back you guys better smiling and singing the Coke a Cola song, "I'd like to Teach the World to Sing in Perfect Harmony!" Got it? Seriously chill out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2KECJv9XrQ

What's really bugging you Patrick? is it the uncertainty of your future, did you get a glimpse at your futile ways, are you envious of the 2 billion souls that have a God to worship, love and turn to in times of trouble?

What do you have that makes you feel so special, so smart, so full of yourself?

Here is what Elvis was really praying for... says so in the lyrics

Lol Bob!
Mario please refrain. I am pretty much done with the boxing match.

What I have is personal sovereignty and self-reliance, Mario - to wit: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblins of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do."

Emerson believed in living in the present and not in the past. When men such as you quote passages from the Bible, they fail to exert their own creativity.

Thus, nothing original is created and intellect becomes cyclical rather than linear. Men do not express their unique individuality when they enforce only what others have already professed.

Here's an illustration of how I apply self-reliance to my own life:



PHOENIX RISING
by Patrick Pierson

As I within my dreamboat lay,
Impatient with the light of day,
A tailwind blew, though all to brief,
And sent me through a cloudy reef.
I peddled with heroic strain,
And swore an oath to ease my pain,
Then sailed above both wave and dune,
Just east of the sun and west of the moon,
In search of a dream to exhume.
__________________________________________

My spirit like the Phoenix soars,
And beckons to the dream that roars;
Self-kindled every vision glows
And makes the future which it owes.
Unzip the day, embrace the night,
Wherein the stuff of dreams alight.
For such a bird was never found,
Who flew so high above the ground,
In search of a life, unbound.

"Lawrence, i do think you are enlightened. you express things i do not know how to express myself and very succinctly.
Thank you..but I think you're doing just fine, my dear. ;)


"Lawrence.. are those virgins male or female.... oh never mind I prefer someone with experience. ;O)"
what virgins...where?!!! lol I think Patrick can answer that for you...he ordered them with his room service. ;)


"(...he said, with a nod and a wink to my good friend and 'Brother of the Brush,' Lawrence.)"
;))

Nonsense, just more excuses, you should really do some soul searching to understand why you have such contempt for God and everything he stands for, no man is an Island, only a fool would think so. I feel sorry for you and your empty, worthless ideology which in the end you, yourself will see how vain and empty it is.

Ooppppsssss ;O)

*sigh*);
So whose going to the Annual Bird Festival? Anyone?...... Anyone?

I prefer Styx to the birds!

Really Patricia, bullied? a few post that talk about the Gospel Of Jesus Christ you consider that being bullied? wow, what can I say to that?

I said: "What I hate is being preached to and bullied into buying into something I have no interest in because I might "suffer" for it if I don't." Your telling me I am making the wrong decision and will burn in hell feels like bullying to me.

In response to your statement, "... when you reject this truth you are actually rejecting God, he allows you to do that, but it comes at a price."

Yeah, that is exactly what the bible says, your issue should not be with me, it should be with the God of the bible if you don't like what it says,I'm not telling you anything, these are not my opinions, these are the very things Jesus preached. Easy enough to ignore, I still don't get your bullying remark.

Mario, this thread is NOT about Jesus Christ only, and Patricia expressed herself very clearly. The others have respected my wishes to get back to the topic on hand, well hopefully. I ask you please lets move on. Isn't it time for dinner at your house? Just kidding.(; but I am serious about cooling your heels.

Now if you want to discuss what you believe an afterlife would look like, and not via scripture that is another thing, then I am all ears. But this isn't a thread for evangelizing. You know what I mean jellybean?(;

Mario said to Patrick, "... you should really do some soul searching to understand why you have such contempt for God and everything he stands for,..."

You still don't get it do you Mario? You're telling HIM what he should do when he clearly doesn't believe in the God of your worship. Perhaps you should be more concerned with what you should do and let everyone else make those decisions for themselves.

I get her bullying remark.

Edit - Sorry Syd. I was typing, etc ... but it is time for my dinner.

Donna you would benifit from this post, I originally posted for Patrick in the Noah thread, put it's really worth posting, and it was written by an Atheist.

Removed at the request Sydne. It's still a very good article, and many here would benefit from reading it.

sounds like a threat, Patricia.

Mario, you hide behind your god and do not take responsibility for either your words or your actions.that's just cowardly. Sydne has now asked you several times to stop it, we've all mentioned to you that you should respect our beliefs as much as you expect us to respect your beliefs. so ...

the afterlife!

Mario, please remove the post above about atheists as you have already posted one in another thread, I am sure Patrick can find the one in Noah.

I have shared my beliefs on the after life, that's all I have done, I have said why I believe, where that belief comes from, I will say it again if that is the subject we are discussing, see I don't give a rats ass that you disagree with me, but I am entitled just like you to say what I believe, if you don't like what I believe, it becomes your problem, why must I agree with your point of view when you offer nothing to substantiate any of your dimensional beliefs, at least I bring thousands of years of history in the written word and documentation beyond anything you have done other than give your opinion, and you know what I think about opinions as I mentioned it to you once already. So it's not a matter of me not respecting your beliefs it's a matter of I have just as much right to post my beliefs side by side with yours, I don't have to like yours and you don't have to like mine, if my by beliefs conflict with yours tuff crap, I believe God intended it that way, yes all roads lead back to God with me and beliefs.

This one was for Donna and Patrica, not Patrick, it's important to the point I have been trying to make here.

You have made your point more than once. Now on other threads you have found common ground with others, when it comes to the religious view point you really give no one breathing room. WE do know what you believe. And I am sure Patricia and Donna can read the one you already posted on the Noah thread. Please remove the post here.

Why, since when do we censor things here? what about the post do you find offensive, the post was a direct response to numerous critiques I am getting regarding what I believe about the after life, this selective censoring of material that is neither religious in nature and was written by an Atheist, you can not expect me to discuss the after life with me expressing my religious views.

or is the real reason that you want me to remove it is because it makes a lot of sense and it's exactly what's happening here, no tolerance for Christianity or faith based opinions?

I see you are not a member here Mario, does this mean when you are asked to cool down and remove a thread of yours already posted it doesn't apply to you? I am not censoring a thing, your atheist post in Noah can stay, we don't need a double post.

What do you mean... since when do we sensor things here???

Didn't you do that when you were running the show?? Remember...right before you got banned...again??



Holy Moly!!!!!!

Can some one please point me to a thread that doesn't have Mario's sermons in it?

Patrick, has posted the same copy and paste articles to me 2 and 3 times to make his point, will you also remove those? It seems my post suffer more selective enforcement then others post, we could talk about swearing which Patrick and Lawrence think is totally ok and that those rules don't apply to them, two incidents of the F word today alone, is that ok? It says in the members home page swearing is not allowed.

Try the quirks thread Lawrence

Why...you haven't preached in there yet? lol...and show me where it says you can't say the F word in here.

Let's not go there Mario, you have used some interesting language as well. Besides which, on the general board we can't talk about anything about everything we post on this board.

Now I feel like I am talking to my kids when they were ten years old. You are an adult man, you do understand what I am trying to convey? You do understand Mario I find myself on this road with you every time, I thought it was going well, until today.

I can delete the post, I did not want to do that and I hoped you would be nice enough to remove it. This is a thread on the afterlife not about atheism. Noah is Johns thread he doesn't seem to mind the atheist thread on there, but truly it doesn't belong there.

Believe it or not I do understand where you are coming from, if you had watched the video about the debate on The After Life that Christopher Hitchens organized, two Rabbis spoke of your issue. They made some good points of which I thought you would have been in agreement in how athiests react to Christians and the Jewish tradition. They made a profound and I believe substantial argument. Not verbatim, but back in the day an atheist was put under the gun for their belief there was no God by Christians and those of the Jewish tradition. Today the shoe is on the other foot. However Christopher made a startling statement at the very end, after he made some disparaging remarks on those of faith in one God. His doctor whom was active in his cancer treatment, and Christopher emotionally shared how the doctor was an intricate part and had a become a personal friend. His doctor was a devout Christian. On the funny said his doctor told him, when Christopher died he wouldn't need to pray for him, but I bet he did.

So yes I do see your point, on the other hand, I also see how the reaction is to your many posts of scripture, people need breathing room and respect when asked please back off. Just a bit Mario? Its sort of this you push, they push back....no one wins at that game.

I wish all of you would check out the video btw no matter where you stand, I found it enlightening.

Ok, I removed it, Sydne.

Lawrence, you can read, go to the group home page and read the rules. Jeeeez, enlightenment is gonna take a looooooooooooooong time .Lol


'We are prohibited from posting or transmitting any unlawful, threatening, libelous, defamatory, obscene, scandalous, inflammatory, pornographic, or profane material or any material that could constitute or encourage conduct that would be considered a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate the law.'
http://fineartamerica.com/termsofuse.html

Sydne, can you please post a link to that video you referred to?

Mario thank you. I really, really appreciate it.

As for the group home page many of us have crossed the line, but the important thing is we are hidden and we have been given a big pass, and that is a good thing.

Back to the After Life. However I am signing off, so be as good as you all can, see you mańana!

Adios! no problem, you should know by now that I never post anything with the express intention of offending anyone here, it just happens.

no s Sherlock...I wanted to see what part of it you think the F word falls into. Because to my knowledge we no way enforced that level of censorship here...that was one of the whole points of having the group...though I know you thought the reason this group was started for was so you can do your daily scripture and warnings posts.

I am listening to the video, which is quite long but very good. Thanks, Sydne. Here it is, Mario.

http://www.openculture.com/2014/12/is-there-an-afterlife-christopher-hitchens-speculates-in-an-animated-video.html

The premise of this thread regarding the so-called, 'Hereafter,' I believe to be much ado about...hallucination?

Yup.

Neuroscientists have been able to demonstrate changes that occur in human physiology initiated by things like pathologically induced states and seizures, out-of-the-body and near-death experiences, as well as positive states like ASMR* and meditation.

Hallucinations, whether revelatory or nondescript, do not have mystical or supernatural origins; they are part of the normal range of human consciousness and experience.

It's really just much ado about nothing.

(*ASMR: Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response - a common experience many of us share when we visit the salon or barber; we experience the ASM response when the stylist or barber inadvertently finds that special trigger, which causes the onset of lateral tingles that we feel coursing over our scalp and down our spines.)

When people die, two parts of the brain that usually work in opposition to each other act cooperatively.

The sympathetic nervous system - a web of nerves and neurons that run through the spinal cord and spread to virtually every organ in the body - is responsible for arousal or excitement.

It gets you ready for action.

The parasympathetic system, with which the sympathetic system is entwined, calms you down and rejuvenates you.

In life, the turning on of one system promotes the shutting down of the other.

The sympathetic nervous system kicks in when a car cuts you off on the highway; the parasympathetic system is in charge as you’re falling asleep.

But, in the brains of people having mystical experiences, and perhaps in death, both systems are fully “on,” giving a person a sensation both of slowing down, being “out of body,” and of seeing things vividly, including memories of important people and past events.

It is possible - though not at all certain - that visions of heaven are merely chemical and neurological events that occur during death.

or [profane] material Lawrence, oh my God, what a pain in the ass you can be! Lol

profane as in profanity as in the F word, pelotudo! lol

Thanks Patricia...I loved that little film.

Thank you Patricia, I will watch it when I get a chance. right now I got a few pains in my ass, Lawrence and another called Patrick but the one that is really bugging me is the one I got today from sitting and laying 300 feet flooring by myself. Lol

I was not familiar with ASMR, so I thought perhaps I am not the only one. Here is a video on it and a summery of what it is, Autonomous sensory meridian response. Kind of interesting, all though watching the video makes me laugh out loud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_sensory_meridian_response

:::inthemoodinthemood:::

Syd, I understand what ASMR is. I've felt it often and in various regions of my body - unexpectedly. Sometimes a cats purr does it for me. But frankly... this video did not make me feel any "distinct, pleasurable tingling sensation in my head, scalp, back, or peripheral regions of the body in response to visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, or cognitive stimuli." But it did bring me to laughter. ;)

Edit to Sydne - I'm still on the Hitchens video. ;)

I know we have videos to catch up on (at least I do), but this is a short article and presents an intriguing new theory about past/present/future. Just posting here in case anyone is interested. The possibility of other universes always piques my interest. I'm sure we are very far off from proving anything like this, but I wonder if time does not "flow like a river" then what would that do to beliefs of an afterlife?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2932870/Is-future-decided-New-theory-time-suggests-past-present-future-exist-universe.html

- A Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor of philosophy has presented a new theory of time
- Dr Bradford Skow says the idea that time flows like a river is not correct
- Instead he claims space-time is a 'block universe' where the past, present and future all exist together
- If we were to look down upon the universe, we would see time spread out
- But he adds the present is not a 'spotlight' in time - but rather we are in a 'temporally scattered' condition

sounds like what i've believed all the time, Patricia. no time and space in other words. i will go read your article but i am not sure this is a very new way of thinking.

Lol !! I tried to watch the gal in the ASMR video, but her whispering was really getting under my skin. Is that the point? Very interesting idea -- first I've heard of it. I have a good friend who does EFT Tapping therapy (Emotional Freedom Technique), although whenever I feel I could benefit, I forget to contact her to ask her where I should tap, and by then the "crisis" (mostly in my own head) is gone.

Yes, I've often wondered that myself, Carolyn. But I have a hard time wrapping my head around it. Perhaps his book on the subject will explain the theory in ways I can understand it.

Very intriguing article Patricia. Yes I have heard about a mirror universe, and yes it is hard to wrap my head around. Very good question, if time does not flow like a river would that change beliefs of the afterlife?

Patricia.. Yes that is an interesting subject, but this is from a professor of philosophy ;O)

WTF?

her brain on drugs.

Moi?

Patrick, does WTF mean Wheres The Flute? (;

Sydne.. sounds like an entry in the "for men only discussion" ;O)

I think it should be.

Re's Patricia's article - I've heard about "block universe" and read a few things about it. I'm not sure whether there is truth in it, or not - so I can't necessarily subscribed to it. But, it doesn't seem all that different to me than other beliefs - some deeply rooted through out time, and those over the past 30 - 50 or so years. I agree, it's a mind-twister ... I get what he's saying, just not sure about it.

I owe Syd an apology - I keep meaning to finish the Hitchens video and always sidetracked. It's still on my agenda when I can remember to give it the full time it deserves.

Its good Donna.

Re: WTF?

I posted my comment in the wrong thread.

Appy-polly-loggies.

Now, if any of you can guess where that expression came from...good for you!

Well since I have been playing Bob's cool game in "For The Fun of It", I am guessing it's what the elephant said when I stuck him in my refrigerator.

clockwork orange. great movie. (i'm a brit, Patrick)

great book too.

Correctamundo, Sophi!

And for the benefit of the rest my droogs, here on the FAA channel, 'A Clockwork Orange' is one of the greatest films ever made, in which lashings of the old ultraviolence fueled by drencrom, velocet and synthemesc fill one's day with glorious debauchery and orgiastic revelry, all spiced up with a bit of the old, in-out, in-out.

And...it celebrates Beethoven's Ninth in such a magnificent way that not even Bog could fault it.









PS: Bog is God

http://youtu.be/M_QbxRwnYHI

Re's Hitchens... I was thinking that now he's passed on it would be awesome to hear from him, from the afterlife ;~O

I'm still watching the "Never Ending Debate"

@ Patrick - Now I have an itch to find and watch my CO dvd.

Just realized that my comment about EFT tapping therapy may have been misunderstood. I do have a friend who does this, but I have never-ever done drugs, nor do I drink or smoke or anything like that. I was joking about needing it, just to clear that up. I shouldn't joke around, apparently, because I do it very poorly. Lol.

Believe it or not, I have never seen Clockwork Orange!!! Guess maybe that's long overdue :)

Only one person perverted your response Patricia, everyone understood perfectly what you were conveying.

What Sydne said. Don't second guess yourself ;)

Patricia - you've NEVER seen A Clockwork Orange? Where exactly were you in your adult youth? LOL... just teasing ;)

Patricia, its worth renting or watching on netflix maybe

I have a funny story when I first saw Clock Work Orange. We watched it at a theatre and there was this couple who were really enjoying it, so much so the woman was performing fellatio on her mate. I missed a lot of the movie needless to say. I was picking up tips.

oh, lmmfao, Sydne! Great story and I'm sure you still have inspiring visuals floating around...

The first time I watched it was at Syracuse University. We weren't doing "that" but the area was filled with smoke. Wait.. maybe it was fog ... or steam.... or I moved to into an ethereal space and time ... wait - there was no space and time... damned if I can remember ;)

hahaha you're hilarious, Sydne. again where is the like button!!!?

Yeah I still remember the coat over her head bobbing up and down.

Well, in 1971 I was a serious student being dragged into movies like "Slaughterhouse Five" and "Catch-22" by my older boyfriend, and I didn't have the maturity to appreciate or even try to understand them. I probably said "no way" to Clockwork Orange, because I thought it would be another one I wouldn't "get." Never too late, though.

It is a strange film Patricia.

Patricia.... I am going to predict that you won't like the movie, but it is one that is referenced repeatedly so it will be good to know what they are referencing... let us know ;O)

Sydne,

I watched the 1 1/2 hour debate about the "afterlife" under the Hitchens cartoon. IMO, absolutely worth watching... Two Jewish Rabbis, Sam Harris and Hitchens. Seriously, both positions are well represented and discussed. Listening to the rabbis discuss God/religion/afterlife is quite refreshing. Lots of laughs and seriousness.

Said the rabbi, "Everyone has great clarity in the God they don't believe in." He goes on to talk about God of the Torah... and speaks about the God both he and Hitchens "despise."

Really, brilliant conversation.

I thought is was, and we have touched on some of the same issues in this thread. We don't have the Jewish point of view which I wish we did! Well rounded and sometimes a bit heated, but I really encourage people to watch it.

Thank you Donna and Patricia for taking the time to watch!

I started reading a new book last night and I'm enjoying it. I really like the author's no-nonsense style as opposed to the last one I read that I mentioned. Some things he has mentioned resonated to my core... for example, he said he grew up catholic and used to call that place "heaven"... today he is spiritual without a religious affiliation. Now, he more commonly uses different words like "the afterlife" or "the hereafter" or "the spirit world" and, "the other side." I remember my "shift" from being catholic and thinking heaven,with no religious affiliation very well. It began in January 1989. That's when something deep within me stirred and I began to gently peel back the layers of conditioning, one by one...

For those interested, the author is Bob Olsen and the book is, Answers About The Afterlife - A Private Investigator's 15-Year Research Unlocks the Mysteries of Life and Death. Apparently, he is the host of AfterlifeTV.com, which I have not visited yet. I am amazed at the amount of research he has done... all the people he's spoken with including those who experienced an NDE.... and his own conversations (for lack of a better word at the moment) with his father who passed in the late 90's.

Oh - I thought this thread needed a little kick. ;)

Edit - you're welcome Syd!

Edit Edit - I found this link to his book if anyone is interested:

http://www.answersabouttheafterlife.com/

I have been on his site, very interesting Donna.

Well, tried to share a video here twice but it won't show up... I'll try again later

http://youtu.be/CBVaI1YlEnE

there's this but it seems to be mostly him advertising his book

Two year old boy begins to share his past life with his mom…


CHICAGO — Do you believe in past lives? An Ohio boy’s family says they didn’t, until little Luke started sharing specific details. He spoke about living another life, in Chicago, as a woman who suffered a horrific death.

Link to video:
http://wgntv.com/2015/02/05/ohio-family-convinced-son-lived-another-life-as-a-chicago-woman/

Apparently something going on with FAA - I've tried to post the actual video and it won't work... I have not removed the video link from the comment - it's still there. Anway, the link above is to the news story/video if anyone is interested.

Hi Sophi - yep, that is a website for the book.

Another link for the interested...

An interview of scientists, doctors, a neurophysicist...discussing NDEs (near death experiences). You can't make this stuff up and it's fascinating, especially considering who they are and what they do.

For millennia, human beings have wondered what happens when we die. What is the first-person experience of dying and being brought back to life? Technological advances in resuscitation science have now added an intriguing new chapter to the literature of "out of body" or "near death experiences" by eliciting detailed and vivid accounts of those who have approached the threshold of death. However we might seek to explain such phenomena, it is no longer tenable to simply dismiss this accumulating body of firsthand experiences. Can these experiences be explained through the lens of biology and neuroscience?

What can we learn from the transformative accounts of those who have crossed the threshold of death? How have their experiences affected their sense of self and identity? Join neurologist Kevin Nelson, psychiatrist Peter Fenwick, orthopedic surgeon Mary Neal, and emergency medicine expert Sam Parnia as they share some of these remarkable stories and discuss how they analyze such experiences in light of their own backgrounds and training.

New York Academy of Sciences
Wednesday, December 11, 2013

Since the last video worked, I'm trying to add the one of the little boy in Chicago again...

NOPE. FAA is fickle I tell ya!

Wow that was an interesting discussion. The woman orthopedic surgeon from Jackson Wyoming made an excellent point. If the after death experiences are manifested in the brain, why doesn't everyone have an after death experience? Some people don't, many don't. Now that was a good argument for life after death experiences I thought.

Not everyone has one because not everyone is the same. Not everyone's brain is the same. Not everyone's illness is the same. Not everyone tells the truth. Not everyone's NDE is the same duration. Not everyone's brain chemistry is the same. Not everyone's cause of NDE is of the same intensity.

Just a couple of possible reasons ;O)

Here is the other interesting thing, the woman surgeon experienced an NDA. She was kayaking in Chile, her kayak was pulled under the water and she went with it. She was under the water by her estimate for 15 minutes, but the group she was with were very clear she was under the water for 30 minutes. It took them 15 minutes to find where they estimated she had gone under, it took them at least another 15 minutes to pull her out. Logically the brain cells would have started to break down, but she had no brain impairments after the accident.

If this is a process of the brain before death, a physical thing, it seems to me, everyone should experience NDA's.

They mentioned atheists as well and some have experienced an NDA where loved ones show up to greet them.

Interesting to note culturally different experiences occur, what their culture or religion believes happens when we die.

Sydne wrote: "Logically, the brain cells would have started to break down, but she had no brain impairments after the accident."

Can you guess why brain cells 'break down' under these conditions?

Here's a hint: Free radicals.

Enlighten me some more Patrick, as we get older they say Free Radicals are a problem, how does that have to do with drowning?

Stand by Sydne.... this is going to be a long explanation.. ;O)

Well, that's not the free radical toxicity I was asking about, though it's long term effects are deleterious.

Our brains crave sugar, because that's the stuff - actually, it's glucose - what feeds those hungry little neurons. Thing is, when a neuron lights the fuse on a stick of nitro glucoserin, the resulting explosion yields not just energy but a pile of crap, or to be more precise, a bunch of loose electrons.

These little buggers run around crashing into other whole molecules with the neuronic cell and morph into that biohazardous kryptonite known as 'free radicals.'

The only reason we don't die from a kryptonite overdose is because of the oxygen we breathe; oxygen in our bloodstream is delivered to the neurons in our brains (& every other cell in our beautiful bodies, too) where it acts like a super-swiffer to mop up all those nasty rads and transform them into CO2.

So, now you can 'grok' how we respirate.

I don't think NDEs are manifested in the brain. We tend to think that mind/consciousness must be from the brain organ ... personally, I don't think that's true and I don't think there is any proof that it's true. I'm not even sure if there is any "evidence" of it being true.

I think for the most part, people rely on "proof" and tend to ignore "evidence." That said, there is much evidence that NDEs happen. I have to wonder what "proof" is necessary for people to believe it happens?

Re's NDEs and religion - I don't think an NDE is rooted in religion. I think what happens is that if a person is religious they might have a religious NDE... if they aren't they won't... atheists have NDEs and have claimed no religion involvement but a fantastic one just the same. Oh, and many religious people have claimed that their NDE was not of a religious nature.

Interesting, everyone who has experienced NDE's remember them as clearly as if it just happened. Now as the woman pointed out, years after her son died the memory of the what happened has faded. Perhaps the experience and the memory resides in consciousness.

Just as not everyone remembers their dreams, possibly some do not recall their NDEs. As a natural skeptic, I'm going with the neurologist's explanation from the video. Thanks for posting that, Donna! It was long, and I did skip ahead a few times. I have heard the woman surgeon's story before, so I mostly skipped that. (Love written transcripts when they are available, easier to read and/or skim, but they seem to be a dying breed.)

I had dizziness and out-of-body experiences as a child, but rather than ascribe any spiritual meaning for it (I've been a life-long non-believer, even as a kid who went to Sunday school), I felt there had to be a scientific explanation. Years later it was discovered I had a medical condition that was not diagnosed then, which most likely brought the dizziness on, prompting the out-of-body sensations (I could actually "watch" myself doing things, seriously... probably could still bring on one of those if I wanted to, but I don't). So, the explanation from the neuroscientist about the temporal cortex of the brain makes more sense to me than any spiritual one might.

Let's hope for more studies and observations, and I'm keeping an open mind about it, but I tend to agree with Patrick's "bunch of loose electrons."

i can go along with the "loose electrons'" idea... dying is probably like an mescaline or acid trip with brain chemistry all out of wack and neurons firing at random or misfiring if you will... i remember my many NDEs from the 60's and 70's but we didn't call them that and they were all self induced... . +>))


Here's a link for hundreds of NDE stories... http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

I think the scale tips on the side of brain farts during the shut down of brain function due to lack of oxygen.

I would have to google to find it but one article was saying how during sleep when we dream the brain has to shut down the motor functions so that we do not act out physically what we are doing in our dreams. Other brain functions such as consciousness as well . Sleep walking is an example where that is not functioning correctly. So that during our dreams when we are talking to a giant praying mantis with the head of George Washington it is as real to us and any waking reality. Hallucinations can be thought of as dreaming while still awake and conscious, so those people walking down the street having a heated conversation with no one are really having a conversation with a giant praying mantis with the head of George Washington.

It then described the sequence of brain lobes that shut down during death. It talked about the lobe involved in memory retrieval and the one that deals with emotions [which the act of memory retrieval communicates with normally ] being highly active during the death process and may explain much of what is experienced during a NDE.

It is just another one of those things that we just don't have enough real data yet. And some want to jump the gun and claim that science can't explain it so it must mean that we have a soul and are visiting heaven... what else could it mean ;O)

Bob, that makes sense. I'm sure we've all had those dreams where something horrible is about to happen, but we cannot make our legs do what they are supposed to do -- run!

This is interesting... just the opposite where a person awakes but their motor systems are still shut down and they are paralyzed. The interesting thing is that some sense a "person" in the room.... hmmm

From Wiki....

Sleep paralysis is a phenomenon in which a person, either falling asleep or awakening, temporarily experiences an inability to move, speak or react. It is a transitional state between wakefulness and sleep, characterized by complete muscle atonia (muscle weakness). It is often accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (such as an intruder in the room) to which one is unable to react due to paralysis, and physical experiences (such as strong current running through the upper body). One hypothesis is that it results from disrupted REM sleep, which normally induces complete muscle atonia to prevent sleepers from acting out their dreams. Sleep paralysis has been linked to disorders such as narcolepsy, migraines, anxiety disorders, and obstructive sleep apnea; however, it can also occur in isolation.[

I have two stories, not a NDE but I guess one would say supernatural.
This happened in like the 40's, my grandfather and grandmother had just moved into their new house. The phone rang and my grandfather answered it. His brother called him to say hello. The phone suddenly went dead and they realized they had not gotten phone service. A few days later my grandfather was informed his brother died a few hours before they received the phone call. Now how does one explain that?

The second story was my grandmother was reading in bed waiting for my grandfather to come home. He worked late hours. Suddenly my grandmother saw my Uncle standing in front of the closet. The closet was dark, she could not see clothes hanging up, it was like another dimension. He took her hand and looked down on her and smiled. Then he turned and walked back into the darkness of the closet. The next morning my father called to tell her Uncle Pat had been killed in a car accident in the early evening hours.

In both cases they did not know the people had died, when they had their experiences nor were they dreaming. In the first one, there was a technical mechanization that was not functioning at the time, the telephone, yet the phone rang and my grandfather heard his brothers voice.

Another odd thing after my Uncle Pats car accident, they did not find him until the late hours in the morning I think. My uncle would always carry a 100 bill in a secret place in his jacket, but it was missing. Years later my aunt received a letter and inside was a hundred dollars. No signature, no address, just the cash. However this is not a supernatural event, but an odd one the family pondered for years.

Sydne....

I will only say that my family oral histories have all turned out to be total fabrications. Added to and expanded on each telling. Not saying that is the case with yours...... just sayin' ;O)

Well it wasn't, it came straight from my grandmother. There would be no reason to fabricate that I can think of. You see Bob, for those who do not believe in such things, everything can be explained by science, the very first thing that comes from you guys is, a story that has been embellished. Yet what purpose would the story serve to make it bigger than it was? She wasn't selling it to the Enquirer.

My father ran into a light poll in his hometown, it was a fact, no embellishing the lights went out across the little Wyoming town that night.

I think one must be open, some things happen and science can't explain them, sometimes.

Oh I agree... I am only saying that my personal experience with family histories was that there were so many different conflicting versions and turned out almost none of the thing actually happened. And they were stories that like you said... why would they make it up??? They weren't anything earth shattering, just simple things like how old my grandmother was when she arrived in the U.S. [ ranged from 5 to 19 ] records shoed she was 11.. not that it really mattered. Who she lived with when she arrived... story was her sponsor was supposed to meet her at train station... never showed up, but there was a man there that saw her there waiting... took her home with him and that is the family she grew up with.... never happened... we found the paper trail and it just never happened. There were many more that I won't bore you guys with.

It is not usually " a reason " to embellish a story.. it just happens in the telling and at some point the new memory replaces the old... even in the person doing the embellishing.

And again... I am not saying that is what happened in your family... but it happens

I think one must be open, some things happen and science can't explain them, sometimes.

Yes, I agree. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned evidence versus proof. Some people are so concrete that they need hard proof ... no matter how much evidence has been collected to support something. Personally, I'm ok with not needing proof about everything in life. Hahahaa... or life after life. ;)

Edit - Ok, I'll share a story. The night before I got married many many years ago I had a lucid dream. It was disturbing to me because it was about my deceased uncle (died 6 years before) wishing me congratulations, etc. I cried throughout the dream in my dream. He just kept reiterating that he came back to see me to wish me well in my marriage. The only thing in the dream was me in my wedding gown, him in a suit and him seated in a chair. He said a few things to me that made no sense but I woke with complete clarity about the dream and what was said...

Those few things he said to me, I learned, were not for my benefit and whatever they were I couldn't have possibly known about. I shared word for word what he said to me to my mother, her jaw dropped and she sat down and cried - tears of sorrow, tears of joy... wow. I never did learn what it was all about and that was fine because I apparently wasn't meant to know... but my mom did, and then her sister did... they knew what I told them was real.

Seriously, I almost did not get married that day.

Donna.. I don't anyone says that NDE happen. Just the mechanisms that cause them.

Even the mechanisms given are only possibilities, they too have not been proven. As they were stating to do a scientific study, the money isn't there for one thing, and the how is another problem.

Edit.. I shared a personal story above in my edit.

Donna.. I don't anyone says that NDE happen.