Critique V Pat On Back - Difference In Asking

Patrick

A lot of people have made changes because of peoples inputs. It has surprised me how many :)

I actually listen to critiques very seriously even if they are unsolicited depending on IF I respect the critiquer.

SO, tell me what you like about this one!

May I plug my group Beth? Work definitely improves from critique.

Raw Critique....it's exactly what it sounds like.

http://fineartamerica.com/groups/raw-critique.html?tab=overview

Beth wrote: "A lot of people have made changes because of peoples' inputs."

Perhaps, but who's to say any of that input, along with the specific changes that were made, was, in the final analysis, necessarily beneficial to the piece? After all, not one of those alleged benefactors who've recommended the artist accept their prescription for change has even seen the work in question in the flesh, before or after the changes.

No masterpiece of artwork was ever created by committee; democracy may be great, but it fails miserably when it shapes the actual work of art.

Had I so little confidence in my ability, and in my skills as an artist, that I thought I couldn't trust my own 'eye' to do the work without help, I'd be a sorry excuse for an artist.

If you're one who thinks you need someone else's opinion of your own creation in order to complete the job - or at least, 'feel good' about it - you should first consider the source of that opinion.

Remember this: If you're uploading your own copyright-protected imagery to this POD web site and profiting from the sales of reproductions made here, then you should consider yourself a professional artist, and you should adopt the business acumen that accompanies this distinction.

Patrick

It is not up to you, or me, how people want to paint their pictures or portray their photography and, if they are new and would like help, then that is good.

If they just want to hear they are good because they hear nothing but negatives from family and friends.... that's good also.

NOT our problem or choice.

They just need to know what to expect when making a post. Hence mine.

Yes indeed Jeffrey :)))

i just want to add that if someone asks for feedback or a critique - this isn't an excuse to berate or belittle the artist. you give your thoughts about the piece and why you don't like it. i've seen too often that certain people will use this as an excuse to add a snarky comment but not actually help the person in any way shape or form.

oh and jc my critique for that doll thing - i think it would look better if the eyes were more wall-eyes, both in two directions, but not too much. i can't decide if she should be looking at me, or in two directions at once.


---Mike Savad

Bethhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I asked people to tell me what they liked about it and Mike critiqued it!!!!!!

heh

trouble makers... since i stopped reading after - i take critiques seriously, then i'm pretty sure i read - mike critique this, i think it was subliminal.

---Mike Savad

Quoting myself: "...I agree with Beth's judgment in announcing this ruling."

Everything else I posted here constitutes my professional opinion; it is the basis of opinion that is the underlying premise of this thread.

Jeffrey wrote: "This is not a true statement, agreed Beth?" in response to my statement: "After all, not one of those alleged benefactors who've recommended the artist accept their prescription for change has even seen the work in question in the flesh, before or after the changes;" by 'in the flesh,' I meant the original artwork, not a reproduction.

To say otherwise would be to tell a lie.

I am just messing of course Mike. People are more than welcome to critique away on me. FWIW I only pay attention to them if;

1. It is something new that I am trying and not sure if I like it or not sure what I am doing.

2. The critique points out something I hadn't noticed before.

I think it's creepy, JC.

I think it's creepy too, but that's what I love about it! :)

Ditto Mike S!!!! Yeah JC if you were trying to freak us out,,, you definally got me. I think you should of put a warning before I scroll down next time LOL.

Mission accomplished. Of course, when my wife told me the doll could NOT come inside the house it was pretty much successful at that very moment.

Applauds Mike Savad's comment at 3:18! I agree...as you know :)

JC, I would like to see more of the doll's hair and clothes. And if it's supposed to be an old doll...the dirt on her face looks more contrived than real...aged. She's creepy yes...I like how one eye is slightly lower in the socket than the other. It works. I just don't want to wake up and see her in my room...real or in print! lol

The dirt is EXACTLY how I found her face down in an abandoned farmhouse. Nothing contrived at all.

You can read her story here.

:o)

I am an emerging photographer who has benefited from the honest critique offered by other professional photographer and artist members of FAA. I feel that I am getting so much more than having my own web site for the fee I paid. I have been privileged to see the works of and participate in discussions with artists of all mediums and at all levels of their careers.

I have made changes to captures upon suggestion that have enhanced an image but not changed the essence of the piece. There are threads that I have read and gone back to over and over again. I know my work has improved and am more than pleased that there are professional artist who take the time to communicate with many of us who have the talent/eye. I have benefited from constructive critique offered by successful artists who are educated in the field as well as those who are self taught. I am pleased that Beth has laid out the rules for all to see. Rudeness just does not belong in any forum and that includes FAA. This is not reality TV.

Patrick, you are a highly respected artist with talent that transcends most mortals. I love your work; more than that, I am in awe. Please know that I have confidence in my ability and trust my "eye". I simply look to others who are willing to offer a bit of advice when asked for.

JC, I'm not sure there is anything about that doll that I do like, although composition, color and lighting are done well. It is just really,really creepy. I have to agree with Joy. You know I am a fan of you work...... your doll will probably sell well during Halloween though. :-)

I honestly don't expect to sell any of "Red's" images on here. She is really something I did purely for the fun and creepiness of it. Now, I do think I may be able to find the right venue in NYC where she will sell, but this site probably is not it.

JC, I really like the doll's crazy hair! Oddly enough..

Angelina, I just joined Raw Critique, and my first experiences in it have been great! I'm looking forward to using the group more as I further develop my skills and personal style!

Arlene, I totally agree! I don't have the time or money to go to take photography or art classes, and while I've done study on my own, I'm always looking to improve!

Patrick, the above does not mean that I will always take everyone's advice about my photos, but I will consider everyone's critiques of my photos and make changes that I feel will improve the picture, my skills, or my style. Thus, it remains completely a work of my artistic sense. Furthermore, should not every person in any field be constantly seeking to improve? Perhaps that is my own personal opinion, but I never want to stop learning!

I am admittedly sometimes harsh in my critiques but then I never provide them unsolicited and frankly, if I didn't think the artist had potential I wouldn't make any comment at all. So if I come down on you like a ton of bricks it means I actually like your work. Please note that I never ask for criticism, because I have a massive ego that you can do nothing either to rein in or appeal to, so don't bother trying.

I really like your other two 'Red's, JC. That wild hair is amazing, and 'Wanna Go Upstairs and Play' emphasizes her little devilish grin :)

Re: Critique vs. Pat on Back - Difference In Asking (resuming the discussion suggested by the topic heading)

"To say of a picture, as is often said in its praise, that it shows great and earnest labour, is to say that it is incomplete and unfit for view." - James McNeill Whistler

"You should not say it is not good. You should say you do not like it; and then, you know, you're perfectly safe." - James McNeill Whistler

Arlene, you addressed this comment to me: "Please know that I have confidence in my ability and trust my eye," and I believe you. But to have the courage of your convictions means that you do not feel compelled to ask others (especially those who, you have convinced yourself, have better judgment than you) to second guess your own decisions regarding the art you've created on your own. How will you ever know when to stop asking for approval, to stop amending and revising...to stop second guessing yourself? (By the way, Arlene, thank you very much for the compliments!)

The only critics whose judgment I trust implicitly are the buyers who have acquired my work just as it is presented to them.

Whenever I fail to sell one of my original works of art - given a reasonable amount of time and exposure, of course - I'll pull it out of the market for awhile; eventually it will sell - I just have to figure out how to get it in front of the right person.

Timing and delivery are everything.

Amanda. I've stated in other threads that I consider myself more a 'journeyman' than a bona fide artist because I continue to strive to improve my skills, learn new techniques and utilize new materials in order to better express and communicate the creative ideas I wish to convey; I grapple with the artist I wish to become, but I do not need to improve my artistic sensibilities as they are intrinsically as much a part of who I am right now as are my thoughts on this topic; it could not be otherwise.

Yes, I agree with you all and none of you.

:)

Patrick, I see what you mean now, and I agree.

Amanda. I'm just happy I was able to explain myself well enough to be understood; that you or someone like Beth would agree with the premise is even better. ;-)

Speaking of Beth, she wrote this: "...I agree with you all and none of you."

A transcendentally tripendicular tenet of Zen and the Art of Moderator Maintenance.

Most adults understand that…
It’s not only what one says…but how it is said.

This also holds true for why something is said.
Meaning...whether the critique is what is needed or mainly given by an ego and an individual taste.

There's a fine line between “teaching” what is needed at the moment and what is desired to be taught.


Critiques based on an expertise in the medium are different than those given based on a simple like / dislike of a certain look. (one’s own taste).

In martial arts…
You don’t tell the student (whose kick is wrong) what the kick should be.
You teach them how to achieve it. ;)

Lawrence,

When it comes to decision making....I don't believe it's always the case that you "teach" what the better way of doing it, is....As a teacher, I always felt that when I thought that something needed a change, express that concern ,without going into details...and allow (at times compel) the student to figure out for himself, what the concern was, with the opportunity to determined on his own, how to deal with it..Only after that exercise, would I show (teach) them a "Better" way.

Yes, Roger I agree…
of course it’s “not” always the case. But sometimes…without having personal experience with the student…(meaning…when the “teacher” is not the one who taught the individual whose work is up for critique)… there is less of an opportunity to know what can or cannot be achieved without getting into some “How To’s”.
And in this forum environment…”the teacher” may never get the second chance at the “better” way.

Btw….in martial arts…(once the basics have been taught)…popping a student in the chest enough times usually inspires them to improve their blocking! lol ;)

Yes, Lawrence. I have been finding that out >:(

lol, Beth...it's really the only way, my dear!! ;)

Hmmmmm >:(

My off-ence is better than I thought though :))

Beth...there's nothing that can make one develop blocking speed and effectiveness...like...not wanting to get hit! ;))

There's always the option of perfecting the art of...moving out of the way.


Go get'em! ;)

Lawrence -- brings back memories. First Taekwando class -- instructor asks what best defense is.

After allowing for a volley of enthusiastic student responses -- he caught everyone's attention by one very brief comment.

"If you can, leave."

Then we got on with the business of just how to accomplish this :)

Great thread BTW. Ideally -- we learn much from our peers.

Carmen...good for you...to have had him ;)

It was. ;)

His teaching was immeasurably inspiring in dealing with an agressor who was prone to display her 'power'. When she could not deal with her 'match' -- she resorted to flailng, windmilling desperation. Perfect 'in' -- down she went.

Runs an incredible parallel with just about any undertaking of a similar set of events.

Yes Carmen...in fact...much of the wisdom pertained to fighting (especially eastern arts) can be utilized in many undertakings in life...having nothing to do with it.

;) Exactly why I shared this experience in regard to the topic.

Bump

Beth,

What are your thoughts regarding a newbie posting in the forum the first time, displaying a piece of their work and asking for help,
but, what kind of help with what is not defined ? Is THAT to be assumed that the displayed piece is up for critique, or, without it being stated, they are looking for help with the workings of FAA ?

My own thought on THIS : a critique right from the start, seems pretty cold and somewhat aloof a reflection of FAA ...
you know, " first impression. "

Everyone wants to feel welcomed, accepted, and appreciated. Especially when you are.... the newbie.

.

I agree entirely and feel that should not be assumed. Rather, perhaps, a welcome and clarification required first. Perhaps even send to this thread to make sure lol

Beware - you may get what you ask for. Critiques should be constructive, not destructive. Perhaps there should be a discussion just for "a pat on the back or ego stroking".

Critique or pat on the head..... which do you wish for when you speak here?

Do you ever listen to critique or look for it and feel it is lacking?

Thank you for clearing this up. I've seen too many threads started here where the OP asked for a critique and when they got one they ran away with their feelings hurt. They should have started a thread saying "Give me a pat on the back for my art with absolutely no criticisms."

-Roz Barron Abellera

if i ask for a critique then that's what i want. otherwise, place me on a pedestal.


---Mike Savad

Never Mike, sorry LOL

Yes Roz. You get what you ask for and, if you do not want, do not ask........

The doll is perfect, and I heartily endorse the "natural look". She would blend right in as a country tomboy (a female "feral" child) in many parts of the country. And that evil grin and those eyes just give it that twisted personal flair.

If you ask for a critique, it's up to YOU to discern the good advice from the bad. I think that answers Patrick's and others' concerns, mostly. Just give your candid personal reaction, and any level that seems important to you.

For example, when I ask for a critique on a high speed flash photo of a bird in flight, I will discount a comment such as "I prefer natural light.", other than taking note that I may be neglecting another (bigger) niche market.

I must be the only one not creeped out by JC's doll.
& I think dolls are creepy in general.


Back on topic. ......

it doesn't have to be a pedestal, that would be uncomfortable for me. one of those golden chairs like the romans used will be sufficient. i prefer my grapes peeled, and my chocolate slightly soft.


---Mike Savad

sorry, duplicate.

Throwing some grapes @ Mike.

hope they're peeled...


part of the critique issue is, i've seen some critiques that were full of sarcasm or just being mean. some people don't know how to give them. it's like an invite to put someone down.

---Mike Savad

I have a thread about that also http://1stangel.co.uk/blog/how-to-critique-someones-work

JC - About the only things I like about that shot are the lighting and sharpness. Technically an excellent shot. Aesthetically your mileage may vary.

I try to critique only when asked to, but when I do I try to be honest about it and look at it the same way I look at my own work. And I'm a lot more critical of mine than I am of yours...but if possible I also try to find the positive and bring that out as well as the negative.

JC, I don't know why, but that picture gives me the HeeBeeGeeBees and I have a pretty strong constitution.

If you were going for the creep factor, I think you captured it beautifully.

Actually good critiques look for the good and the bad. It is feedback crucial to growth. It's find to point out the what is wrong but it's more beneficial to also include what you would like to see. Suggestions like what would happen if you did..... or I like to see what you go do with ....... or this may work....... with those suggestions it's a purely negative, which is thought provoking but not nearly as beneficial. Most art school critiques are both negative and positive because that is best way to help someone grow in their work. The balance between the positive and negative perceptions is the secret many art schools use to shape their students growth. And yes they can be brutal as well as complimentary. But it also helps to know what someone is trying to accomplish without that your critique may really be off base. Just my 2 cents

You will see my other post (linked) agrees :)

Bump

Bump

..................................and this is our sticky for today. Read well fledglings as you decide to ask for feedback on your work... you may just get it





If you have a favourite thread you think deserves a sticky, let me know in PM, not in this thread. It may not be one of your own.

-----------------
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I like your Help threads being Stickies! Newbies here all the time and it is helpful to have these there for easy finding!

Two things - if you ask for a pat on the back be strong enough to realize that's what it is - if you ask for a critique be strong enough to defend your gut instincts.

As an artist any decisions to accept or reject praise, suggestions or criticisms lays with you. Ultimately its your work. Not something designed by a committee. If everyone could agree on something it wouldn't be art or an individual expression.

I've watched a few of Scott Kelby's online blind critiques and for naive amateur photographers they are brutal. Scott is nice about it, but his guests can be downright mean. Scott's guests are seasoned successful professionals; they don't have a vested interest in being nice online. I think lots of people on FAA secretly think to them self "dang that sucks" when someone asks for a critique, but online it's the "politics of like". The conundrum of the internet is many people that live in a bubble suddenly decide their "art" is amazing and ask for a critique... after all, their friends and family told them so. On FAA you see this on a weekly basis and then they have their feeling hurt because the bubble is burst.

I was taught....if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything,

but what is considered good?

nice things can be said from anyone, but you won't get any idea of how anyone really feels about it. calling something nice doesn't explain why it was called nice. if someone asks for a critique and you think it looks great, tell them so, but point out what makes it look great or its a useless critique. usually people ask for one because they aren't sure about it, and there may be a huge flaw they don't see because people were saying good things.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

I joined the Raw Critique Group to get some input, but I guess it is not as active as it maybe used to be, as a group. Few people that do speak up and critique,. Greatly appreciated of course!

I think I will post an image to the discussion board for raw critique. I just have to work a bit more on them, and then pick one. I think it's a great idea to sort of stand 'naked' with your art open for all it attracts.

From the sticky note I gather that it is allowed to post an image for critique on discussion board.

i don't often look at that group any more. mostly because its only a few people that critique it. everyone should have a go at it. your better off posting it to the main forum, more people are on that. but more people should actually say something.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Have you ever done that Mike? post an image to a forum for raw critique?

We usually do think of our own creations as good ones, because we made it and we spend time with it. so that is our point of view.
Yet, to have it in a store and hope to sell it, it is a different story.
I have paintings that my friends like, but that is all, they are not a decoration to put on the wall to see everyday.
of course, it depends on a person buying the art. Do they want a piece of art on the wall to have a conversation about? and then change the piece every few months? or do they want something sweet and tasteful to make the room more sophisticated and leave it. Who knows? Prints are affordable, yet there is so many of them.

I didn't even buy the 30 $ membership yet. I will though, but for now it doesn't make any difference, I don't even have 25 images prepared in such a way to be good enough to post for sale.

i don't need to, i can do my own critiques. usually i'm the one critiquing them. if you don't have 25 images yet, unless you really want the art store, i would wait. post any image that you would like for sale because you don't know who likes what. just makes sure it can print ( i didn't look). people buy all sorts of things, but mostly it comes down to advertising.

---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

okay. Thanks Mike

She's definitely creepy.......and a little slutty😳

um... huh?

---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

I'm guessing Anne B. refers to the creepy doll posted 3 years ago? lol

One would definitely hope so lol

it shall always remain a mystery.... and a guessing game.

---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Somebody call me?

Oh, and your image needs to be made surrealist and creepy JC, then it would be awesome! I could do wonderfully evil things with that image }:>

but then, naming a doll as creepy and slutty, is it a critique?
maybe, if someone is setting a mood, and asking if it worked.

Lol........now I'm reminded why I stay out of discussions....too funny!!

"nice things can be said from anyone, but you won't get any idea of how anyone really feels about it...."

A camel is a horse put together by a committee.

that would make more sense if you had said zebra.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Not sure, Mike...seem a lot of horses that look like camels in art

zebra's are striped horses. they look the same. unicorns are the same. all the same animals.

camels and llama's are related they look alike. giraffe's have a similar look with other odd qualities.

---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Hrrrrrmppphhhh

Vincent I agree with Mike that there was not one reason for that remark

Bump cos I love JCs redhead

JC, she loves your cute doll too:

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Matthias, I find your zombie image far more objectionable than any full frontal nudity or sex act, both of which are prohibited here.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Matthias: Is it Zombie or Meth mouth? Yuck!

the only feedback i want is: just bought your image...

Abbie: Sorry... ;-)

Dan: Me too! I'm european :-)

K L Kingston: I had the chance to be the stills photographer for a short film (zombie comedy). If you want to see more pics feel free: http://www.hauserfoto.com/blog/2015/8/zombie-film-brain-freeze-fotos-vom-set

Je n'aime pas les critiques.

Just a reminder

I just read a great quote regarding critiques:

This isn't a bakery. I do not sugarcoat anything.
If you want my opinion then that's what you will get.
BUT, don't be mad when it's not what you want to hear.

I don't remember if I've ever asked here - and I probably won't start now. Years ago, however, I belonged to a watercolor group that met once a month - you were required to bring a new work or one you were working on for critique. Not elephant hide - rhinoceros hide is learned - honesty was the rule. the first rule was that you had to be invited to the group, and the second rule - if you cried they would ask you not to return. The lunch was usually very good.

"...if you cried they would ask you not to return."

I love it! Good rule. No artist's experience is complete until they've been involved in honest critiques of their work. Sometimes you get beat up (seemingly), but honest critiques are the fast track to improving both art and confidence.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

I would rather have someone tell me that my work sucks then to have someone say nice things....at least I can believe the former.

Dan...."No artist's experience is complete until they've been involved in honest critiques of their work..."

If I put a one inch black line on a blank canvas....I really don't need a critique....I know where I wanted that line to be and why....No one else can tell me otherwise..... yes, critiques can be an asset for beginners....not for those who know what they are doing.

I can really care less what​ anyone thinks.

bump

"There is NOTHING wrong with someone wanting a pat on the back sometimes. "....that's a great comfort.

there isn't anything wrong with it, but if that is what you were expecting to hear when they said - i want a critique, and then they get comfy waiting to hear compliments... and they get something entirely different... often we have to ask -- are you sure you want a critique? some people cry. most get mad.


----Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

To be honest...I consider art subjective in such an extent, that I don't give a dime on art critique...and the history of art tells us that some great artists were destroyed by critique at their time.