Are We Not All Mature Grownups Here?

The only way a contest is meaningful is if it is judged by an panel of experts.

I agree with you. I have entered dozens of contests and never even placed in any of them. I decided long ago to just enter for the exposure. I refuse to solicit votes from anyone. It's sad that people are so desperate to win a "bragging rights only" contest that they will solicit votes, but ultimately, it's out of my control.

Hi Jennifer, there is just this discussion in groups,
http://fineartamerica.com/groups/group-and-contest-administrators.html?showmessage=true&messageid=2359255

"could watch the locations of voters from clicking on the gray winning number on the leaderboard"
I never knew this!

I think if voters were forced to vote for more than 1 image (must vote for at least 5 images), the score would be evened against the campaigners.
But then "vote for the worst" campaigns would be rampant.

The real point of entering contests is to get exposure for our art. At least that is why I enter them. The more solicitaion being done increases the chances of my art being seen outside of FAA. No solicitation means only other artists will see it and in most case, not all, artists don't buy other artists stuff. If No solicitation is allowed I don't enter most of the time. I welcome vote solicitation and could really care less if I win or not. If I do, that's an extra benefit.

Mark, If you are looking for exposure just post the FAA addresses of your work on social media instead of soliciting votes for your contest entries.

Mark is spot on.

Furthermore, if there is no rule against it it is NOT cheating.

I don't solicit, but I don't care if others do. And I do post on social media. However soliciting has extends the reach on social media to people who would otherwise not see my work just by me posting.

The exposure comes from other people posting links to the contest. It increases your reach beyond your own social networks.

To answer your question, Jennifer, NO we are not all mature grownups here.
Just read the threads..... ;)

But exposing your images probably isn't the reason mods host these contest.
Personally, I do love highlighting great photos, not campaigner crap ( not saying they all are crap)
photo contests and popularity contests need to be separated.

People who can't read the rules bother me too. Paintings in a photo contest? Seascapes or still lifes in a landscape contest?

It's possible to win a contest without solicitation…I've won a few and I never troll for votes. That being said, I think it's the norm and the contests are just a way to pimp images.

I'd love to see more juried contests.

What do you win if you take first in a contest?

Usually nada, zip, jack.....

What do you get if someone comes to a contest to vote for someone else's image, sees yours and buys it? Money!

Simple as that really.

If you post a link to the overall contest on social media that does give exposure to those participating. If you just post links to your entries so friends can vote (they rarely look at other entries) that is vote solicitation and the contest becomes meaningless.

I submit them and forget about it. I have NO idea when I win or who else wins.

I DO notice when an image sells while it is in a contest.

I suspect that many if not most of the people engaging in heavy vote solicitation are under the mistaken impression that winning a contest improves their search placement on FAA.

Marty, that's not necessarily true. You never know if the family member or friend voting for the person's link might decide to keep looking at others pictures as well. They may come across your shot and really like it. Sure, it's a crap shoot but it provides one more opportunity to possibly sell something.

Btw, this is what FAA says on the contest creation page.

"

With general public voting, your contest will probably receive a lot of attention and a lot of votes because certain participants will actively solicit votes from their friends and family.   This will make for a lively, active contest, and all of the participants in the contest will be rewarded with the sheer volume of visitors that stop by to vote.   However, the final vote tally will most likely reward those participants who actively solicited votes... not those with the best artwork."

If one starts from the premise that people are basically ungovernable...then none of it is a surprise at least.

As to the question. I agree with Marlene.

Also agree with Edward and Mark

to make it fair it has to be judged by experts..

Most view them as a means to more exposure...(like posting discussions) Just make it the contest image that gets the most views during the contest, the winner...by any means possible...solicitation or otherwise....if it's not going to be judged by outside impartial experts.

Find me a buyer who bought a piece of art on FAA because it won a contest...make that a contest..whoever comes up with the most in five days wins.

I do see the solicitors points being made. We all want exposure of our images. But when the same people, over and over, are the ones always in the lead, it leads other great artists to not get noticed. I find that bad competitor spirit and disrepectful to all artists in this community. The fact that my contest specifically asked others not too solicit, also asked to have a fair playing field so that images can win on merit alone, and it is not open to public voting, then how does that work for the other 175+ members who want fare exposure and a chance to get the feature in the group from winning. Sorry.... if they want to play unfairly, they could have just skipped the contest all together and joined another that didn't state rules.

Haha Marlene... so true :)

Thanks for the link Synde... I found it interesting, and potentially helpful.

I agree, if the contests rules say no vote solicitation then it should not be done. No ones disputing that.

they are just for fun, won't help you sell, if your a winner. if the people are so bad in art that they have to cheat to win and if that makes them happy. who cares. i enter for exposure. there is no prize.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

When in Rome do as the Romans. Might go against your principles but what is most important to you, exposure or principles. Put up or shut up.

It is possible to place in contests despite having not solicited votes. I have been surprised to be placing in contests lately but I do not solicit votes- even when the rules say it is acceptable to do so. I have often felt contests that encourage voter solicitation to be unfair. I completely understand and agree with what JC is saying about exposure. Voter solicitation is, in a way, good for everyone with images in a contest. I just don't like to do it. But I will continue to enter contests (always voting in every contest I enter). They are fun and it sure does help with exposure. An art supply company contacted me once about using my work after having seen my work in a contest. You never know who is looking through or even searching out contests to see a kind of work they are interested in.

I never solicit votes whether the guidelines say nothing about solicitation, encourage it, or disallow it. I win fairly frequently but I also enter tons of contests so I win or place in a small percentage of them but total number of wins is pretty good.

I subscribe to what Marty Fancy said about the overall value of solicitation: "If you post a link to the overall contest on social media that does give exposure to those participating. If you just post links to your entries so friends can vote (they rarely look at other entries) that is vote solicitation and the contest becomes meaningless." I know others said those friends and family members might take a look at other entries but I'll bet that doesn't happen very darned often.

And for contest administrators reading this thread, I'm another who tries hard to vote but HATES having the number of votes I can cast limited as much as I hate contests that are so broad (subject and # entries allowed) that the result is hundreds or even thousands of entries. Doing either of these things is one way to guarantee that I will not vote in your contest - or will, at best, wait until close to the end and vote the leaderboard.

I think, no, I KNOW, a lot of members vote for those with name recognition, as well. So, it doesn't mean a person is 'soliciting' votes when folks vote for 'who' they like whether or not their images are the best! There is NO way to stop that from happening...and it can be quite frustrating to both members and the hosts trying to make their contests fairly fair! It is sometimes a popularity contest, unfortunately. Quite tiresome to see some of the same people winning again & again because of their friends, or groups of friends, or groups in general, who show up in numbers to support one another...especially those further up the leaderboard with a chance of winning. Big yawn!

When I was in high school, I entered an art contest after spending hours on a project. The I saw who won, and I thought the work wasn't as good. I have even seen photography contests (not here) where the judges didn't even seem educated in photography. There were photos that took more skill and through to take, and those people didn't win. After I graduated from college I entered a photography contest. I submitted a night photo, taken high above the state fair where you could see all of the rides. It was so pretty. The photo that won was a baby that was drooling. No joke. After seeing what I have seen, I realized photo contests are so subjective. Even if you have skill and talent, some people might not like your "flavor" of art.

I left it open to vote as many times as you wished but asked that each member vote for at least two others work. I guess I should have been more specific in asking that they vote for at least two stranger's work that they found to be of amazing quality to make the contest more interesting in results. One lady responded that she couldn't find any images in over 550 suitable to do this, so thats why she only voted for her close knitted group, and they voted for her (which of course she did on all contests she entered and acknowleged to this). She couldn't find two images... seriously? The entries were amazing!

So what it boils down too is some people like solicitation, and some don't. I personally don't, and will still note that in all contests I run. If solicitors enter, I'll just remove them as I do with those that don't meet the 'mediums' specifications as well. Thanks for all your input fellow members. It helped me to see it from different angles.

In answer to Jennifer's original question: "Are We Not All Mature Grownups Here?"
No, of course not. We are a bunch of publicity seekers trying to sell our artwork. Art that is entirely subjective, by its very nature.

There is never going to be contest where everyone is happy with the outcome. So why complain? The FAA contests are just a bit of promotional fun. I have participated in hundreds, (jointly) won one, low turnout contest and hosted many too in the past for members only, juries, and all-comer voting. I have never solicited a single vote as I would rather just try to draw a crowd to my AW site rather than a one off contest.

I seriously doubt whether anyone outside our narcissistic little group of artistes gives a sheet whether you have won an FAA contest. It certainly won't make them buy an image over another one because people buy art if THEY LIKE IT, period.

Some people will always bend the rules to get what they want - get over it. If you don't like to enter contests then don't. If you don't like running them then don't.

JMHO!

- Richard Reeve
ReevePhotos.com

I agree with what Richard said. Jean

I Won an FAA Contest Once!!!

Of course, I had to share 1st place with 2 others, we all got 4 votes each..

Do you think that since there only 3 of us in that particular competition, it really mattered?

I think of myself as a WINNER!!.


Now here is a case, when not winning really hurt,..even today, 68 years later, I remember that day so clearly.

Just a little after this snapshot was taken at this classy art show, overlooking the Sound on the North shore of Long Island, NY..(.All the work displayed were done by the students of Miss. Airing)



The principle juror called everyone to the stage to announced the Awards.

I GOT THE BLUE RIBBON!!

After the polite applause died down, a very concerned look came upon the gentleman's face, as he looked down at his papers

He grabbed the Blue Ribbon from my clutches, and said,.....

" I'm sorry Roger I made a mistake, you get the Red Ribbon"

Well said Jennifer.

I've entered a LOT of contests. I know I've won a couple but most I have no clue what the results were. I enter for exposure, not to win. I've never solicited votes but I get that some people do. Its just more people looking at their photos. I entered about 10 the other week and would have had no clue I won one until the contest holder messaged me and told me I won' the first prize, an interview. I had no clue as to the prize as I thought most were just "bragging rights". And my inteview appeared here: http://artslammag.com/interviews/richard-cheski-a-passion-for-photography/


Bottom line: Just put your art out there and don't worry about everything being perceived as fair. You'll get exposure and you just might win something cool whether it be an interview, a facebook post or a tweet. Any exposure is good exposure. Even just bragging rights.

Yes, Patricia, being active in groups does help! And how. The stories I could tell. I know from first-hand experience as I've hosted over 100 contests of all types over the last months. It happens frequently. I could name perhaps 10 members right off hand whose work will be on the leaderboard shortly after or even before I send out the notice that voting has begun. In fact, most of them vote for their own right away in order to get on the board first. I think they must set a timer or something! Lol. Then, their friends or group members will start adding their votes to the mix.

David, why don't YOU host some contests for those with digital works of art!? Might be an option.

Lol, Roger. And, Sydne, you make some good points.

Hmmm, the word 'fixed' in the initial post is an interesting word. None of my contests are 'fixed'. I rather think 'juried' contests are more along that line, as usually the host or jury member wins! Speaking strictly for myself, as host, I do more than is expected as it is to try and keep things fair. But, really, a host can only do so much. The participants need to read & follow the rules, act like grown-ups [in answer to your question], quit whining & stop acting like winning is SO important.

In the contests I've won [each fair & square], I've been fortunate to receive a variety of prizes, from a couple of interviews, some fairly intense promotion of my work, which is nice for a change, but rare, and the usual 'congratulations'. Most of the time, it's a congratulations, which is fine with me! In my contests, that's usually the prize, too, plus the winners get a few plugs, a group email with their win announced, a possible promotion on my fb Timeline and some great compliments/likes/shares from other members, as I encourage them to comment on & like the winning images. Group administrators who host contests can usually offer the most reward for winners.

Like I said, hosting is voluntary, so you are going to get a huge variety of members taking on hosting duties, different personalities, different levels of tending, different topics of, different quality of work, different number re entries and so on. There are some really great contests, a lot of mediocre ones & some not so swell. Take your pick...or not! My best advice is to host your own if you don't like how others tend theirs. Good luck with that!

Want to see what the grown ups are doing here lol..to answer your question .check out my post ...

Can You Set Something To Keep People From Following You Or Making Comments?

I was just wondering if there is a setting where you can set to where no one can follow you or comment on your art? Also is there a way to delete comments that you have made on others works ? Also is there a way of deleting all conversations that you have made here on discussions. Can all of this be done from a setting somewhere or does it all have to be manual or can it be done at all?
thanks for information in advance. Jean

In the forum right now.. it shows the level of how well adjusted grown ups react to a simply hypothetical question..

"The only way a contest is meaningful is if it is judged by an panel of experts."

^This.

And who says who is an expert, JL? I am a professional artist of over 35 years working in several different genres, have judged many a contest outside of FAA, know 'fine art' when I see it and am very hands-on when tending contests. I guess that makes me an 'expert'. Yay! What about you? I imagine there are a lot of folks here who qualify as 'experts'...and I'm certain their & my valuable vote counts in any contest.
Meaningful is a different thing and I'm not sure what you 'mean' by that. Are you saying there are contests that matter or matter more and those that don't just because your peers are voting as opposed to a panel of supposed experts? That's up for grabs, as well, because there are ALWAYS scads of worthy entries, deserving to place, but only 3 top slots to fill. Someone that is deserving is always going to be left out & complaining about 'why'! So, meaningful is an interesting word in this regard.

Re 'REAL' prizes in FAA contests...it's true that winners usually get only 'bragging rights' or a 'congratulations'. I mean, really, what do members expect, MONEY prizes from a starving artist-member hosting contests VOLUNTARILY so YOU can show your work and win, place & get promoted? Hmm. Let's get 'real'!

Jean, I saw that you posted your own discussion thread re the comments you bring up above...and received feedback on it from a few 'grown ups'! Lol. Re this particular thread...have you ever hosted a contest on FAA? I see that you are pretty new to the site. But, you might want to consider doing so in order to see what it takes. It's important to follow the rules of a contest so your entries won't be removed, thought. I believed you entered one of mine recently with images that had nothing to do with the contest description or rules. So, good luck...and welcome!

You are too kind Brooks and if i did .. forgive me.. I am guilty as charge of not reading things all the way through as most of you are.. As of the moment I am not in any contest and have removed any and all images from contest I did enter..Thanks for your input always a nice thing .. Jean

Yes Brooks, I wrote this after my first host. I had some really incredible images submitted. I removed a few images that didn't meet qualifications or rules. And sent out a message during voting stating I was aware of solicitors activities, and that their images would be removed as rules stated. I got one back from the solicitor saying I wasn't being fair, and I got a dozen emails from other contestants that thanked me for my effort to run a fair contest for a change. "A breath of fresh air" was one quote. Not sure if you were referring to Jean or me? Is it possible I entered your contest and didn't abide by the proper rules, I guess it could happen. I hope you removed my image as you should have. I make mistakes as well. I have removed my own at times when I caught it in my first few contests entered. But I have made a point as I have become more adjusted to this site to read the rules prior, and even reread the rules prior to voting so I vote fairly.

These types of contests I find are great for exposure. With regards to winning, I don't expect anything.

I've hosted a few contests and will testify that it is time consuming to do so.

I've hosted both "No Vote Solicitation" and "Vote Solicitation Allowed". The contests "Vote Solicitation Allowed" are less time consuming to hosts. No need to try to figure out if the votes are being solicited. Some votes look as if solicited due to being a fan of the artists. If there is no concrete evidence, such as being in the same group(s) that allow sharing votes etc, I allow the votes to count.

I do delete a lot of images due to not following the subject of the contest. This chore just comes with hosting contests.

Currently I'm hosting the contest Trucks Old Abandoned and Rusty.
I invite everyone to help in voting for the best image. The contest ends Feb 24. (I do not have an image in the contest.)

http://fineartamerica.com/contests/trucks-old-abandoned-and-rusty.html?tab=overview

I also enter contests for the exposure of my photography.

We're in agreement, Steve! Contests are really all about showcasing your work...as well as enjoying others. I have 6 on-going, myself!

Jennifer, yes, I was talking to Jean re hosting a contest & entries re as he is new to the site. I had seen a comment he made earlier in another discussion thread re hosts not being fair when removing images. I was just letting him know that he needed to pay attention to the contest rules-description or his images would be removed, by most hosts, anyway. Some don't do a thing. I always state that images not following the rules will be removed without notice. Still, I will let some know why and allow them to re-enter with those that fit the rules.
I know you have already hosted & know what you're talking about! You will find this 'amusing'...in one contest I entered a while ago, the host had two rules. One was no b&w images and the other was paintings only [color]. Well, the top two winners included a photograph...and a b&w photograph! Lol. That's a host that shouldn't be hosting!

Thank you Brooks.

I try to host fair contests. Its tuff with groups who's goals are voting for each other.

I received a message today from a group administrator stating that they want to start a post so that the whole group can vote on each others images.
The message ending with the statement "Let's take over the contests on Fine Art America! ".

I will be keeping an eye on that groups posts.

Steve, will you private message me with that info so I can keep an eye out as well. I think I might know which one[s], but let me know for sure! Thanks.

The 'good news' about that is this, we'll be able to actually SEE the members soliciting votes...and can remove them ASAP! We don't have to 'suspect' it when we see it first-hand! Then, we'll notify all the hosts & tell them about it, the ones who care about that issue, as well as other members who will be on the look out. I know some that feel very strongly about this!

responding to just your message title, the answer is "no".

**And who says who is an expert, JL? I am a professional artist of over 35 years working in several different genres, have judged many a contest outside of FAA, know 'fine art' when I see it and am very hands-on when tending contests. I guess that makes me an 'expert'. Yay! What about you? I imagine there are a lot of folks here who qualify as 'experts'...and I'm certain their & my valuable vote counts in any contest.
Meaningful is a different thing and I'm not sure what you 'mean' by that. Are you saying there are contests that matter or matter more and those that don't just because your peers are voting as opposed to a panel of supposed experts? That's up for grabs, as well, because there are ALWAYS scads of worthy entries, deserving to place, but only 3 top slots to fill. Someone that is deserving is always going to be left out & complaining about 'why'! So, meaningful is an interesting word in this regard.**

Brooks, you're taking this subject way more seriously than I am. I enter contests here rarely, and only to get exposure, and I no longer give a hoot or a holler (as my grandpa would put it) if I win.

Not taking it all that seriously, JL, just addressing a few issues that were brought up...again! This is a 'discussion' after all. Did you think leaving a single comment like that might not warrant a reply? I had a little extra time today to play...and, since I host scads of contests, it caught my eye, the 'meaningful & expert' parts!

Was only curious as to what your background was & what you meant by 'expert' since you brought the subject up? I know there are a LOT here who think of themselves as experts...and some that actually are! So, I wondered if you thought of yourself as one or were just dropping by to say that FAA contests are not meaningful unless hosted by a panel of 'experts' just for the heck of it?! Lol.

Btw, I don't appreciate you saying 'how' I might be feeling about something. There is no way you could know if I'm taking something 'way more seriously' than you or not simply by my addressing what others, including you, are saying or implying here. Discussion is the operative word, again! Yikes.

Thorough & attentive would be a better description of me. I do take what you said a little personally, it's true, since I'm speaking from experience. I wondered if you are doing the same? Since I've hosted so many contests, that means I also have a lot of information re them, which would make me sort of like an 'expert'. Smiling.

I have seen you enter some of my contests with no complaints...yet, JL! And, I accept your 'thank you' for hosting them. Smiling, again.

It's your choice to 'hoot & holler' like grandpa did, JL. Lol. Mine is to simply address the issues as they come up and try to stick to the facts. Still smiling, which means...not taking this too seriously. However, seems some others are seeing they are the ones posting these threads!

P.S. I think members should be entirely GRATEFUL that there is a forum where they can further showcase their work...and that some very dedicated souls actually take the time to host contests where they can display it!

These discussions bother me. I typically don't solicit votes but I have no problem with individuals who do in a public contest. As per FAA guidelines, vote solicitation is expected in public contests and is simply to me marketing your product and isn't really much different than paying for Facebook Ads to draw attention to your work. I however in general would rather spend time soliciting view of my page in other manners. I do enter the occasional public contest for fun. That's it.

However, I don't like being called, " Highly Unethical" when the one time that I do solicit voting occurs. I think it's rude and nonsensical for other artists to berate one another over vote solicitation in a public contest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but loaded statements should be avoided when disagreeing with someone's position.

I recently entered the Artistic Philanthropy contest because 20% of the profits from my art goes directly to a very well deserving charity. I wanted to draw attention to the charity and realized that should my image be featured in the magazine, more exposure would be given to the charity, which relies upon free word of mouth exposure. I posted vote solicitation requests in my groups and on the discussion pages, which went highly ignored anyhow. Most of my votes I believe were received from fans on my facebook page and fans on the facebook page of the charity I support. I am pretty sure that in this instance the " Greater good" ( an ethical principle in Philosophy) outweighs the efficacy of the fact that I solicited a vote.

What was the original question here, oh right "are we not all mature grownups here". No, what would make anyone believe that cyber space is any different than the "real or outside" life. I think some people spend too much time sitting behind their keyboards. Not trying to be mean or anything to the like, but really................all bent about the way a contest is run???? Get outdoors, get a puppy, get a life!!

To answer the OP directly and logically, no, not everyone is a mature grown-up here. Some of the contributors are under 18.

(Might have already been said though.)