Decorative Art Vs. Fine Art

I think: "Here we go again!"

LOL.

I'm an "Art for Art's Sake" artist, Mark, but that doesn't preclude me from being 'decorative'. I think what you're trying to differentiate is the artist's INTENT..........and I see nothing wrong with the intent to be decorative, to sell, and being so doesn't preclude decorative work from being Fine Art...........it's a strong supposition to think decorative artists are motivated by selling rather than the need to create.

The 'toaster' types have their own modus operandii and from what I gather - their INTENT is to make sales - but that doesn't make their work less of value...especially to all those buyers who order on a regular basis that 'toaster' art..........it is yet another sort of Art, I suppose.....but, a creation nevertheless.......just perhaps not 'fine' art....the toasters don't care if they're considered 'fine artists', I believe........might be wrong (it's been known)..........room for all, I guess.

@Charles.........yes, and hopefully, would you mind, please don't let's make this all about you AGAIN....if you're disinterested, stay out of it, for a change, please, thank you.

EDIT: Oh well, too late......you've done it again, Charles.....nothing to contribute but negativity......seems to have found an audience. Too bad for the thinkers here, with literate opinions, as requested...........same old, same old, same old..............back into my room now. Boring,repetitive,same old..........too bad, Mark.

What Charles said...

But, at least I fall under the "fine artist" in your definition. Though, since I only sell prints, that would make me a decorative artist. hmmmmm

What Charles said

EDIT: Oh well, too late......you've done it again, Charles.....nothing to contribute but negativity......seems to have found an audience. Too bad for the thinkers here, with literate opinions, as requested...........same old, same old, same old..............back into my room now. Boring,repetitive,same old..........too bad, Mark.

"EDIT: Oh well, too late......you've done it again, Charles.....nothing to contribute but negativity......seems to have found an audience. Too bad for the thinkers here, with literate opinions, as requested...........same old, same old, same old..............back into my room now. Boring,repetitive,same old..........too bad, Mark."

???

I wrote a four-word, light-hearted joke. No idea what you are so upset about, honestly.

I don't do this for (art) for the money. I consider the fact that I've sold anything a minor miracle. So, in those terms I would be a "Fine Artist". So what happens to "fine artists" who start selling a lot? Does that mean they are no longer "fine"? If the "fine artist" makes a living at his chosen field of art, what then? The artist needs to make a living, so there has to be some concern for sales. My head hurts....

I know why I do what I do as for creating my artwork. I enjoy it.

Yes, sorry Charles, I shouldn't have even bothered addressing you - we all know where that leads.

Back on topic, but not me.

I dont belong in either category. I am not a fine artist and I am not a decorative artist. I just create images and I hope people buy them because I do it for the money and I do it because I just want to create images.

I think I am a "Fine Toaster Artist"! I paint because it's in my heart and is just part of me. But I am always looking out there to see the type of art people are interested in and I am sure that affects what I produce at times. It's always great to make a sale!

oooops!

"I'm an "Art for Art's Sake" artist, Mark, but that doesn't preclude me from being 'decorative'." Vivian. A lot of Fine Art is decorative. Just not a requirement. The decorative work in Fine Art isn't done to match the drapes.

Semmick......... That is a fair and honest comment.

From xoanxo.com About Xoanxo:

Who am I ?

A father, a brother, a son?

Or none?

A painter, a poet, a man?

Or none?

A lover, a husband, a friend?

Or none?

Am I a person, a concept, a name?

Or none?

I am who?

If we are One,

I can only be You.

From my Bio here:

"The best definition I was ever given of myself was from my good friend Aziz that once said to me 'You are what makes this moment possible'.

From my Personal Information at my Artist page in Facebook:

"If you want to know me, give me freedom to be myself and break the prison of the judgements with which you created me"

From my own definition of Art:

I consider Art to be a process, An Artist he/she who enters such process and The Work of Art, the result of such process (material or not, can of course be a performance).

To me, there are "Artists" and there are "Pretenders"

Art requires from the Artists:

Courage,
Sincerity,
Integrity,

And I won't be their judge, only oneself really knows:

This is a question I asked myself a while ago:

That's great X............... Can you clarify? How does that apply to this thread?

I take pictures of things I want to take pictures of AND things I think someone else may want.

I also use my graphic design edukation to try to come up with ideas that may be considered "decorative art" because the only reasons I do them is to practice with my Adobe products and sell. I am working on a few ideas now. Here is the first in a "series" I am messing with. Will anything come of it? Who knows. But it is not something I would make for myself.

Hmmm, Mark I honestly thought you would understand!!!...Have you seen the video?

Fine artists create.
(methods, style, ideas, tools, concepts, philosophy, technics, etc).
It evolves investigate, philosoph, risk, tries, etc

Decorative artists reproduce.
(reproduce what exist already, what "works", what they know will work, including their on feelings and expression).
No risk, no investigation. Just copy what they like and keep reproducing what work for them.

Simple like this.

"There are, of course, many other factors in doing art but the above seem to cause a great deal of dissent on FAA."

"What do you think? "

I think it doesn't matter. Dissent is caused by differences. Differences should be valued as much as dissent.

" Differences should be valued as much as dissent" Tony Differences need to be understood before they can be valued.

"I think it doesn't matter. Dissent is caused by differences. Differences should be valued as much as dissent."

Hear, hear.

And by the way, Mark, singling out the use of "public domain, clip art, paid for images" as being indicative of anything is bogus. There's plenty of "fine art" that uses those elements, and plenty of art made solely for the sake of making money that doesn't.

I guess I'm a fine decorative artist...or is it decorative fine artist??

-Peter

Mark your intro paints two categories of thinking : the Idealistic purest verses the aggressive opportunist ..these two classifications in themselves tell a lot..

I think Mark should stick to his day job and not try to analyze people without a degree.

Who cares why someone paints dots and someone else paint mountains?

You have no clue as to why people do what they do, but for your information it IS all art.

"the Idealistic purest verses the aggressive opportunist" Robert Can you enlarge on this? Seems to be a little more than apples and oranges.

Art, fine art, decorative art, all art is an expression of the urge to create.

Do you really think that Mark is analyzing the results, do you think you get brownie points, allowed in the club, not voted off the island?

Perhaps he is just starting a conversation...

Very broad categories...........Idealist Purist versus Aggressive Opportunist.

IP can be a snob, too, claiming to produce only "fine" meaningful Art for the serious to understand. Sometimes 'legends in their own minds', btw.

AO can be well-intentioned, with an added intent for commercial success/acceptance outside the high-art collectors, more for the larger (faa) audiences with perhaps less need for perfection and perhaps indulgent of the current trend for instant gratification.........not a bad thing......they like, they buy........good for them, good for faa.....

RJ.........care to elaborate on IP vs AO ? I've only scratched the surface.

I'm using your words here

Aggressive opportunist:
"They do art for the money. They seem to use whatever they can to..... These artists first decide on whether they can sell a work before they do "

FEAR based, doubtful of anything that doesn't fit with their way of thinking, it's me first, possessive even people are seen as objects, My, mine, mine mine mine is their montra..they draw there connection from objects that support their sentiment .. I could go on there are other variables

Idealistic purest:

"Art for Arts sake". Money is good but not the prime motivator. Thse people do Art because that is what they do. Quite often for a lifetime.
Their attitudes are not all that different from a monk or priest.

these people are FRUSTRATED ... they don't want what the others have as a matter of fact they despise them for their complacent mediocrity but deep down they envy the fact that others seem to fit in more.. they feel like odd loners ...me, me .me, I,I,I,I is their montra

Anyway that's my dx

" Tony Differences need to be understood before they can be valued."

Understood by whom? To some, ignorance is as refreshing as a morning cup of coffee.

Differences have intrinsic value.

Once in a while my burnt toast can look a little fine-artish. I usually create what appeals to me personally but quite often there is a little voice in my head that wonders if it will sell.

Whether or not I like it Robert, you nailed me. No way out of it. Don't care to change either.

Im a fine automotive technician artist.

My 55 hour a week job is an auto tech. My passion and hobby is photography and playing with digital software to manipulate the raw photos I take. This Makes me happy, and gives me something to do besides sit in front of the TV on my day off.

It was always for my own pleasure and mental solitude. As people saw my work and complimented, I became evermore willing to share my creations. It came to the point that friends and family started paying me for prints of my works.

At this stage, I have placed some of my work in front of the public court of opinion. With every dollar I earn, I am humbled. My ultimate dream is that this hobby and passion of mine could become self sustaining. In that I can buy and upgrade my equipment with proceeds from sales, and not dip into the household budget.

Every click of the shutter, or stroke of the stylus makes me happy. Somebody liking my work enough to put down their hard earned money makes me ecstatic.

So where does that place me? Fine, not fine? decorative? wishful? hopeful? hopeless? I create my art from the heart.

however that gets labeled is for others to decide.

--Brad

Mind that's painting with a broad brush because the two camps don't fit that neatly into a package .. it is more the extremes and how I saw Marks interpretation of them...

@Tony: "To some, ignorance is as refreshing as a morning cup of coffee".

To some, is their biggest fear :-)!!!

To embrace Socrates words, "I only know that I know nothing", but not to repeat them, just like a parrot, to fully understand them, to embody them...too scary for many!!!

I make art for art's sake. I just get lucky if I have some good sellers since some of my work can be gross.crude.dark, one of my goals in some of my work is to have people get a good laugh. I have known many artist's though that just paint the cookie cutter painting since they know they can turn around and sell it immediately, don't really know if that should be called wrong since we all need to make a living but I don't like when those artist's do that. Anyway here is an example of a crude humor piece

I've scanned banana peels and turned the resulting file into art. Also eggs, garbage, plastic wrap, wood chips, leaves, rocks...pretty much anything that would fit on the scanner. It was a phase, and I've sold several of those.

Ironically Dan you're a true idealist ...

That's cool Dan, I used to do strange things with art in the past also, just to experiment, that's good for the imagination it also brings us back to childhood sitting and making mud pies or melting crayons on my mothers iron when I was a kid hehe

Melting crayons…forgot about that…mmmmmm….Thanks Leah.

YW Tony, Here I even did a painting of my childhood melting crayons. As I see though I need to retake the photo, it's cropped weird

I generally thing of decorative art as 'functional objects', like a craftsman. Most often I would think they create with an intent to sell. Yet, some do it for the pure joy of creating just like a painter of photographer. There can be difference of opinions among artist but I don't think you can categorize those opinions so black and white- decorative artist vs. fine artist. We are all here on FAA to sell. Does it really matter what our own personal intent is? To each his or her own...why turn this into a divisive issue with this conversation? What purpose will it serve?

Indeed Kathleen, but I don't think anyone here in this dialogue has been divisive to date.

"One artist compares selling his work to that of selling toasters. "

This is out of context Mark. The artist was NOT comparing his work to a toaster. The artist was comparing public domain art sold to a toaster. ie, you can buy a toaster anywhere just as you can get a PD image in many places. Some places you pay more than others, just like you would a toaster.

It's fun to discuss though, especially when one is an artist for a living we aren't taken very seriously or people belittle what we do and want it at a Walmart price. A conversation bonds us and validates what we do. Agree anyone? lol

"The artist was comparing public domain art sold to a toaster". JC Why would a toaster want to buy free public domain art?

Just in doing some research,

this is from wikipedia:

Fine art, from the 17th century on, denote art forms developed primarily for aesthetics and/or concept, distinguishing them from applied arts that also have to serve some practical function.
Historically, the five greater fine arts were painting, sculpture, architecture, music and poetry, with minor arts including drama and dancing.[1] Today, the fine arts commonly include the visual art and performing art forms, such as painting, sculpture, collage, decollage, assemblage, installation, calligraphy, music, dance, theatre, architecture, film, photography, conceptual art, and printmaking. However, in some institutes of learning or in museums fine art, and frequently the term fine arts (pl.) as well, are associated exclusively with visual art forms.

I posted the question earlier whether anyone here sold what they consider to be "decorative art" because I really like the art deco look and I've been playing around in my digital drawing program. I think "decorative art" (like William Morris' wallpaper patterns, etc.) can be exceptionally beautiful. So....I'm playing around with it because I really like the look.

Of course, it would be nice if someone would buy it as well. I don't know why people (not necessarily anyone in this thread) consider "decorative art" of a lower stature than what's considered "fine art". I'm a closet decorative art lover....I'm coming out of the closet now.

Nice job pointing out my illogical grammar, but nonetheless, would you like to address your out f context remark or just continue to duck it?

Brad wrote:

"Every click of the shutter, or stroke of the stylus makes me happy. Somebody liking my work enough to put down their hard earned money makes me ecstatic."

Cheers mate, I feel the same way!

I also recall my high school art teacher saying, "Fine artists and dachshunds tend to take themselves too seriously." The threads
of the past several days lead me to believe she wasn't kidding.

-Peter

Well inside context JC but, I'll duck it anyway.

Peter, your high school art teacher hit the nail in the head. Also, add Beagles to the list.

Thanks Peter,

Im beginning to wonder how many people here actually feel that way. I think we are in the minority!

JC to the idealistic purest being an artist is an identity that is sacred, an identity that even he feels ashamed to lay claim to, an identity that comes with many sacrifices, an identity that can only be awarded to you by others. a life style not unlike a monk as Mark put it... a tragic romantic notion for sure

RJ, you just described the mentally unbalanced.

Everyone needs something to maintain balance Dan..If the tragic romantic can stay working he will too...

Crap Dan!! --RJ, you just described the mentally unbalanced.--

I almost spit my coffee out reading that!!!

hence the word tragic

Where do you think you fit in this scheme Dan and Peter?

do you want me to answer that?

yes............

as I said Dan is an idealist only not a purest but a traditionalist ..internal anger with external shame...hence the you should do this and you should do that because deep down inside .......

Does there have to be some terrible, dark passenger on board to create "Fine Art?" I don't think so.

Work that is decorative can also be fine art.

I think the initial question is based on nonsense, one is not exclusive of the other.

Angelina maybe it is cliche and you're right, it takes all kinds of motivations but the question was intent..also don't you think that looking into the darkness makes beauty all the more ecstatic ?

Thank you for your "insight" AV. Your position is clear. And Robert "You only need a light if you have a dark to put it in", Pete Seeger

Angelina... exactly my point. Art is art even if a 4 year old does it. Or an elephant... has anyone seen what the elephant sales are? You can't say it's not art. When your pictures sell for as much as the elephants then you have room to talk.
That is for no one in particular here. Most of you I see agree with what I tried to point out.
Sorry Penny, but I think you should read what I wrote again and try to understand what I said.

Which reminds me of my favorite quote that I changed just slightly.
“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant.”

LOL...why is insight in quotations? Perhaps you want to elaborate Mark?

Intent. Purely speaking of intent...is one intent for creating art more righteous than another? If the impetus is despair or joy....a hungry stomach or a way to pass time, is it the present emotion of creative process the reason why it's really "fine art" or "decorative art?"

@Robert "looking into the darkness makes beauty all the more ecstatic ?" We are surrounded by darkness. Death, disease, disappointment, financial trouble, war, our personal failures and our limitations. The darkness exists whether or not we draw attention to it. Are we not all of our joys, triumphs...heartaches and lonely nights rolled into one being? And if we are....aren't all of those things present at all times? Not just the moment we create one piece? Can the complexity of what a human being is be summarized in a piece of art? Or even an entire body of work? And really...is that what art is supposed to be? Isn't the very basis of art the creation of whatever a person wants to make?

I'm just saying...

And Mark...why do you need to make a dividing line? Can't all art just be enjoyed for what it is? For whoever sees it and falls in love with it...or if no one does. I'm secure enough in who I am, I don't need to decide what good art is...what real art is...and what art is better than someone else's or what motivation is more important than another. I make what I want to make, for my own motivations...and let the world decide the rest.

Live and let live.

Thought experiment: A fine artist with genius and creativity and a unique new breakthrough on a par with historical inventions of cubism, or impressionism, or other major art concepts, moves effortlessly from medium to medium. The artist is a painter, a sculptor, a lithographer, and then, gasp, he takes a photograph. Since photography is now (mostly) accepted as fine art, now he proceeds to "decorate" a utilitarian chair. Has he suddenly ceased to be a fine artist? Or does this label properly apply to all of his artistic creative works?

To me it is obvious that ALL of his art is "fine art" if he performs it with the same drive and creative muse.

Example, are Da Vinci's drawings of his mechanical inventions fine art? In my opinion, it is not possible to consider them otherwise. He was a fine artist, and applied his artistic vision and creative genius to all of his work. Any line of demarcation would be arbitrary, an intellectually void attempt to cut a whole man into little functional pieces. Intellectual butchery, in short. An artist will tend to create art. If he paints his garden shed with leftover paint, his choices will be probably conform to the same artistic sensibilities, but perhaps on a much more casual and impromptu manner.

As I said above, it is not that complicat.

The finite artist explore to find new senses experiences. It is more about discovery.

The decorative artist is funcional and the avarege art just want to live again the old known senses experiences. It is more about tradition.

It is a very interisting and important subject if people don't take it personal.

So if a four year old finds a knife and operates on his dog, we call him a doctor?

Marcio wrote "It is a very interisting and important subject if people don't take it personal." that's right Marcio but they do, in America everyone wants to believe that equal rights means a level playing field ..@ Penny No that's jeffery Dahmer

Yes Penny, that is why we call what all doctors do, "A Practice".

My opinion is that Art is an expression of an idea. If an artist is intrigued by how beautiful the sunset is and wants to show something that you can not explain in words, and it happens to be beautiful, does that make it decorative?

Getting better at your skill to interpret the ideas in your head, makes your art more effective.

If you are copying someone else's work that was printed on a calendar, than it's not your original art, or your original idea.

Making and framing is expensive, so I need to sell, or else I can't produce, so does that make me just a decorative artist?

I don't think the subject should matter, but the quality is evident when you try to produce too fast to make it your best work. Or you are afraid to try new things because you don't know if the new ideas will sell.

I still don't understand the 2 x4 block of wood and burlap sculpture art that I've seen in museums. Who decides???

lol Tony,


My point is, I don't want to be called an artist cause I can click a shutter, or pick up a brush, a pen, use a computer, I am not qualified just because I am alive.
There has to be something learned, something studied, some kind of 'practice'...

If art to someone else is less than that, well they can keep theirs and I will collect mine, but saying there is no merit in discussing it further, is sticking your head in the sand...

there is an old saying; "smart people answer the questions, smarter people question the answers"

If it is not important to make money, than why is any of us on this website?

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
Pablo Picasso

You can make money and not have it be your main motivation, Doctors get paid, but they might be doctors because they want to help people...


and if you haven't noticed it yet, some people are on here for the social interaction...

which is why it is frustrating to be told to stop discussing things that are interesting to us, by people who have other motivations...

i'm here for the entertainment...

Ed, are you qualified to be entertained?
Do you have the right pedigree?
Were your parents entertainers?
Does your joy reach a level consistent with your mental anguish?
Do you depend on others to tell you when and if you are entertained?
Do you easily laugh at jokes you didn't write?

Lol

cool.... some people intimidate way to easily............

Or take themselves way too seriously :-)

thanks for the insight into Dan, Dan..............so he has a few issues.........judging the judgmental again are we?

Always...

Basically just holding up the mirror. If you don't like what you see...

The way this begins: "In several threads..." - kinda gave it away for me. :-p

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231409/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

*Sigh*

I'm certain Mark learned this during his many years on the planet: "Live and let live."

But he has lately abandoned the principle in favor of heavy criticism of his fellow artists and travelers. Is it jealousy? Is he bitter about how his own career has turned out? Is he looking for validation (STILL, at this late date)? Is it dementia? Does he need help? 'Cuz the ARTISTS harshly rejecting his writings here sure as hell don't!

I thought I asked relevant questions...but I guess they weren't since they are being turned into a joke.

That's ok...have fun guys, I'm not assuming anyone has a learned anything Dan. ;)

Age does not guarantee wisdom.

Interesting personal attack Dan. Just not that interesting. Looks like this thread has hit home with you. Seems to bring up issues you are having trouble with.

I agree with Dan, I think he is spot on here. You know what they say about idle hands! Superiority complexes are a biatch! I really don't understand why some people prefer to be "slummin'" here when their higher calling awaits them. ...maybe their own superior kind rejects them? just sayin'. LOL! And please, don't get personal here! I did not mention names so this doesn't refer to you! So don't reply...unless of course your guilt conscience is tickling your ego. ;-)


-W

Dan, i am self amused and come here often to be informed by the trained angst...
i try learn some of their techniques so i too may one day be defined as "Artist", a mighty "Fine" and "Decorative" one too...

"Ed, are you qualified to be entertained? "
Absolutely, i was born into qualified... and besides you should see me in the nude, funny and very entertaining to some...

"Do you have the right pedigree? "
No, unfortunately i have to wear socks in public...

"Were your parents entertainers?"
In a rather peculiar and unintentional way, yes very much so...

"Does your joy reach a level consistent with your mental anguish?"
Probably, i think my "Win" is about as big as my "Wang"...

"Do you depend on others to tell you when and if you are entertained?"
NO... but then again it may depend on what they have to offer or threatening me with...

"Do you easily laugh at jokes you didn't write?"
I think so, but i also think that i may have written them all to date... +>))

Dan the patterns you repeatedly demonstrate is thinking everyone should or does think like you and that you speak for the majority...apparently by many comments and the hits these threads are actually popular..when you're pointing one finger you have three more pointing back at you... You're not holding a mirror you fool... you take a small bit of information and run with like it's your own...And Claude, aren't you a little young for this kind of discussion ?

It appears that a few decorative artists and hobbyist take exception to this thread instead of the issues that it brings up. Why? What seems to be the problem?

They don't call this a "Forum" for nothing...lol





(sorry for breaking the "no video rule";)

Thank you Kristine Plum, unacknowledged because of the egos here, for her thoughtful impersonal reply.

Just wondering who thinks "live and let live" is somehow not happening,
Was there a death I am unaware of?
If this thread is about murder, I am not for it, even bad artists deserve to live...

Yes lawrence, it's verbal blood sport, they've come to try and hang the hangman.....

EVERYONE PLEASE STOP YELLING !

who's yelling? I'm a whisper! -W

@Penny, Bad artists?? (edit- do you mean like, you naughty misbehaving artists out there?)

Would you elucidate on that?

@Mark, Hobbyist??? are you using it in a pejorative manner? It sounds to me that your definition of a "fine artist" is the closest you can get to a hobbyist!!!

@Ed, I also think is great entertainment and I am quite sure Mark too !!!

Although sometimes it is a bit like "Shock Art" :-) Short mind gaps, but with nasty side effects!!!

I'm just back from Taco Tuesday...ED!! Beautiful. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm getting a pedigree later in the week. I think you're an artist. And a fine one, too.

"Dan the patterns you repeatedly demonstrate is thinking everyone should or does think like you and that you speak for the majority"

RJ, you're obviously not reading any of my posts.

I do acknowledge that you have hacked together a splendid array of unrelated cliches which are irrelevant to this discussion. Very pretty. But don't be afraid to write your own, original thoughts. I won't bite (or will I?) :-)

Coarse artists are more fun than fine artists.

I've read your posts Dan and often you try to be helpful ..good way to keep the super ego satisfied ..no big deal, we're all human..I know it's hard for you. I tell you your information is not your own and not fully understood or thought out and you tell me I'm not thinking for myself?..You're child's play. You want to play the hero, go ahead.. you have enough balls to be outspoken and that is mostly why others go...yeah i agree with Dan..duh ricky dicky doooooo.....

Dan and Charles.. Do you guys have a problem with responding to the issues brought up in this thread? What are you afraid of?

I agree with Charles.........this is a great party........um, what was the topic?

Mark, what, about the dead horse? I have responded.

When I'm serious people complain; when I'm light-hearted people complain. Can't win. :)

Mark, what exactly *is* the point here? What is it you are trying to say?

I thought I expressed earlier that I thought your dichotomy was nonsense. If you have a specific thesis to put forward, do so.

issues Dan................ I don't mean your internal issues.

Mark, if you're looking for different responses, then you need different bait.

from Mark;
There are, of course, many other factors in doing art but the above seem to cause a great deal of dissent on FAA.

What do you think?

To quote Vivian " I think what you're trying to differentiate is the artist's INTENT" Yes Vivian this is my INTENT


I think it's all right here guys he asking you to look at INTENT and where you see the lines drawn.... he asks" WHAT DO YOU THINK?" his first part is his own take and when he says " Of course , many other factors" he is admitting it....SO WHAT DO YOU THINK? is there a division do to INTENT? or is it purely a popularity contest?

This requires critical thinking skills, something the U.S education dept is not good at teaching...

Wing................. Did you bother to read the beginning of this thread? Take care of it.

I think decorative artist think quite differently than those in the fine arts. Decorative artists have a different intent to the way they work even thought the skill sets needed are about the same. For instance: Do you need to pay attention to the average available room above a couch? Art you concerned what decorators are currently using for color? What predominate colors in your images sell best? What subjects sell best? Endless marketing questions, and so forth.
The Fine Arts are different. Different problems. They could care less about the above. They need a dealer. Artists usually don't deal their own work. They need a different dealer. (the current one is a crook) They are working on the next show or they are hanging a show. Working on a catalog. Hanging out in coffee houses and art bars. Living the life style, in some cases anyway.
What I am saying is there is a big difference in the two directons in art. Of course there are many shade of grey but I wonder if there is any real communication.


T

There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types, and those who don't.

(Old joke.)

Look, there are things that people like to make, and things that people like to buy. If you're talented and lucky, you find something that intersects those sets that you enjoy and you're good at. Otherwise, your only choices are marketing or adapting to make things that people want. Most artists fall somewhere in the middle and use a combination of these approaches.

There is no simple, strict division of artists into two camps. The entire idea is nonsense.

Or, look at it this way: if someone was just trying to make money, would art really be the easiest way of doing it? And on the other hand, if an artist really doesn't care about money, what is he or she doing on a print-on-demand site?

Absolutely, Charles.

It sounds like Mark is simply mislabeling his divisions. There are Commercial Artists (the term I believe he is looking for) and Fine Artists. Yes, skill sets are similar. But (according to the IRS) one is concerned with auto insurance on his Mercedes and the other is concerned with bus schedules.

And some of us think...

"You are perfect in your Uniqueness"

So would the commercial artist advise the fine artist to get off the bus? stop making fine art (which doesn't sell to mass markets) and produce something salable en mass?


FYI
RJ is here cause I sent him here, he was spending way too much time 'in his head', he was on 6 medications taken 8 times a day, having siezures, blackouts, headaches, pain you wouldn't believe, I thought some outside communication would release him from himself, and it has off and on. I am the sell out here, putting him on POD, not him.

Although he is more of a hitchhiker than a bus-type...

I don't sell here. At first, I wanted access to 'one at a time' notecards. They wouldn't let me have a "fixed" design so I didn"t use the service. I like the discussion boards. I want to know what the "everything is art and everybody is an artist" crowd is like. I have found that not everyone is that way on faa. Some true artist here. and some others..........................

I want to break down the essence of my art.
The process involves 3 major elements:
Being there
Seeing it
Producing an image of it.
It may ultimately be decorative, or it may not. Technical skill matters a lot. Designing a chair that won't collapse matters a lot, but technical skill never disqualifies art from being "fine art".
To me, the main "art" occurs in step 2, seeing it. But there is a certain art in "being there", the art of love. If you don't care enough to be there, then you can't get involved in a quest for visiont, and you'll never get the opportunity to experience to the "aha" moment of "seeing it".
To me, it is immaterial if "there" is in a machine shop, in the wilderness, in the home, or in the presence of other human beings. If it replicates a vision, it is art. If it does it with the right "je ne sais quois", then it's good art. If it does it very well, then it's fine art. So to me, the fine means not the subject,, the medium, or any ulterior motives, it's "artistic quality".

"I don't sell here."

Ah, so now the problem becomes more clear: you're in the wrong place.

First line of the "About" page for this site: "FineArtAmerica.com has revolutionized the way that artwork is bought and sold around the world."

Not that you aren't perfectly welcome here, but really -- this is like going to a chili cook-off and complaining about all the meat and spices.

All the "pc" quotes on the planet cannot discount the "uniqueness" of personalities / desire / need.

There are "types"...there are "two camps"...etc. among "artists". There are also points in their distinctive differences/similarities that the line between them blends.

Both "types" have similar dealer/decorator crook problems...need for catalogs...etc.

Mark...if I'm not mistaking...is talking about the completely different types of "head" artists (humans) come with, not technical ability or talent an artist can have.

He's talking about the "Leo Castelli" types/days....and...What Soho, NY used to be about before the "decorator" shops took it over!!

But I could be wrong ;)



Penny...

No need to defend/explain RJ to the unknown. ;))

Depending on ones personality…This "fine art" purity club, so many want to be a member of, can be one lonely existence without $uccess to help in playing the true “fine art” game.

And those who relish in it's difficulty do so for a variety of reasons....and many times one of the reasons is fear of being accepted/allowed to wear the "label", regardless of how well it really fits.

You know it's all a game, eh? ;) ....the mind is a game.

Mastering any "game" on this planet requires angst and separation....patience and individuality...whether taking the bus or waiting to get picked up by a stranger or mom/dad.

“Identity” travels by many modes ;))

Thanks Lawrence,
RJ can't talk now, we are packed up and only have my computer out, besides he's reading Tolstoy,
but I have been reading the posts to him and he laughed and said,
Yes Lawrence, it's lonely at the bottom...

do an "exorcist" head turn...
see...you're not alone ;)

"on it"...not "of it".

It's tough at the bottom....

but worse at the top.....

From Marlene Burns

Subject:
decorative vs fine art

Message:
hi mark!
i cannot post in the forum or use the intermail system for a year...but i did want to comment on your thread. i have been in business over 40 years and i openly claim to do both.
i call my fine art, my serious work....that is the stuff i do daily...what is coming out of me, my process. if i end up with a product at day's end, it is a bonus.
my decorative work is what i do that is :
1. light hearted
2. less costly
3. often in this season's designer colors to serve as an adjunct to their beautifully designed homes that need finishing touches AND
4. most custom work ( since the color rendering removes my element of spontaneous creation )
and there you have it...feel free to quote this banished person from the kingdom. lol

"Decorative Art" vs. "Fine Art" = false dichotomy.

I do not accept the premise.

"Decorative" indicates a CHOICE concerning what to DO with art.

"Fine" indicates an ATTITUDE concerning how to THINK about art.

Olympic swimming vs. Fish swimming. There is NOT a "vs." that sensibly applies.

- Robert

Robert K. Good observation. Not bad at all. But then, I refer only to faa, not the "real world". I like to throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks. If it sticks, I try to find out why.

The art that sells is boring for me to produce...The art I enjoy doing doesn't sell.
I despair that people are don't like me...
Oh well, can't help bout the shape I'm in. Can't sing, ain't pretty and my legs are thin. :0)
Merry Christmas One and All.

Mark,

Yes, dichotomies make for interesting discussions. Many times, however, they trick us into making absolute divisions where, really, there are none. I have fun disrupting this human tendency - to choose one side or the other - just as you have fun entertaining this human tendency. Hey, I think I just implied a dichotomy there (i.e., dichotomizing vs. not dichotomizing) (^_^).

Gray, some of the world's highest paid fashion models can't sing, ain't that pretty, and have very thin legs. Maybe you missed your calling.

- Robert