Associates Versus Bachelors Degree.

This is a different country I know but, my bf has a degree, with honours, and it has helped him not a jot.

I will assume, since I am in a different country, that "jot" means it hasn't helped at all!

John...

Employers like to hire people that are able to take a task to completion. Completing 4 years of college with a high GP shows an employer that you "potentially" would be a better worker than someone who has not completed the 4 years.

Employers also like workers that are "teachable" completing a 4 year degree requires that you "learn" how to "learn".

No matter what degree you have in graphic arts.. your job with a new employer will probably begin with the company "teaching" you how they want the work done. But since you completed a 4 year degree they feel confident that you relearn the job their way ;O)

Wow....this should be interesting.

My associates degree was not in the arts (allied health) but if I had gone another two years it would have made a difference in the types of employment I would qualify for in that field (teaching/administrative, etc.) and therefore the amount of compensation could have been greater. However, since I would have been doing a different type of work in that same field that's like comparing apples to oranges.

You touched on that a little when you said you had seen jobs advertised that required a four year degree. Were those job opportunities for a different type of work in the design field than what you would be doing with a two year degree?

Maybe so Bob but an associate degree could teach them the same thing and it is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Well john the other answer to you question is "because they can" ;O)

When there are a lot of applicants for a job the simple thing for the employer to do is just toss out anything less than a BA. for the reasons that I mentioned above. You can't always bring logic to these things.

"Were those job opportunities for a different type of work in the design field than what you would be doing with a two year degree?"

Kathy, it was a graphic design job. Graphic design is pretty much graphic design. Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign is pretty much the standard in the field an I learned to use them all.

Now I didn't learn much in the way of website design. I COULD have but, for some reason, the school thought classes like art history and physical education were more important than website design!

Maybe it's your personality LOL

It might have been if they actually MET me.

John LOL

What Bob said....it also works that way with applicants that are over qualified...not always but try applying with a masters and they want someone with a BA ... you won't be considered either.

It depends on the field. I have an associates but that's all my job requires. At this point if I wanted to move up in my career I'd have to get a bachelors, no way around it because an engineering degree is a bachelors. Right now due solely to my experience I'm classified as a mechanical designer but that's as far as I go in this career without going to a university, my degree is for drafting.

I do think overall "higher education" is being over-pedaled as the way to professional success. I think we need to return to promoting the trades, they are dying.

Hi John

I teach GED classes so I have this conversation a lot.

It comes down to flexibility and competition in the job market.

If you have two people applying for the same job and one person has a certificate (what most GED students are looking at getting) and the other has an associate, the person with the associate wins hands down. Same goes for the AA v. BA fight.

This is really illustrated in the for profit college world and nursing. The for profit colleges are all running adds telling people to come in and get a certificate in nursing to get a quick career. Problem is, the market is actually flooded with people holding associates or higher that are also looking for work so now you have a bunch of people that are up to their eyeballs in debt for a "quick easy career" that can't find work.

Another thing to consider - Which degree will allow you to continue later if you wish? (this goes to the flexibility question) With an associates degree if you ever decide you want a BA you may have to start over depending on what will transfer to your university of choice.

So the quick answer is that it depends on the field you are looking at and who you are competing against.

Myself? After swearing up, down, left, and right that I would never go back to school after finishing a Ba in theater arts I went back and got a masters in special education. The theater arts degree didn't do much for me but the masters landed me a job that is rather flexible, has good retirement, and that brings me great pleasure. There was a lot of cussin' and cursin' to get to that point but I'm glad now that I did. (and there is now a little voice in my head that I keep telling to shut up about a Phd.)

John,

If you are not on Linkedin join. Put your profile very honestly. Put up a few pictures of your work.

Join a couple of groups and then sit back. I get emails from Linkedin every other day. And some
of them are job postings.

I live in an area ripe with job postings. But still you'd be surprised. I dont want any of those jobs.
Yet I was shocked when I finally opened one of the emails.

You are showing initiative. That goes a long way in the graphics world. I think that is why I am getting
so many solicitations to just send in my resume. It is very hard to find people that will take it on themselves to
do anything successful or not.


Dave

"I do think overall "higher education" is being over-pedaled as the way to professional success. I think we need to return to promoting the trades, they are dying."


David (and others)

This site is associated with Mike Rowe (from the TV show Dirty Jobs)

http://profoundlydisconnected.com/

They agree with what you said.

My life was absolutely totally changed for the better when I earned my BA in graphic design from a good university. Do doubt. In the 80s when I was creative director at a large pi blushing company we required BAs from all art school applicants. One time I stretched my requirements by promoting a young woman from the paste up area who had an Associates degree. She was a great hire and I never regretted it but she is the only non-BA I ever hired. Businesses need standards.

I agree with Kevin. I have a bachelor's degree in fine arts, specializing in graphic design, from the University of Florida, which was one of the most well-respected art programs in the state at the time (early '80s). Worth every penny.

I noticed a common thread. Kevin and Valerie both mentioned the 80's. Was it different then in pre or infant Photoshop days? Graphic design was "harder" in the pre-computer age. Could that mean fewer people wanted to do it?

I agree with Kevin that businesses need standards but couldn't (shouldn't) those standards be the portfolio of work?

I have an associates degree in fine art, A bachelors degree in art education, a MA in painting and a MFA in drawing and painting. I teach art at the elementary school level. Technically the only degree I need is the bachelors. That being said I feel like I learned a great deal about art at each level, no regrets.

Yes, having a BA opened doors for me. But that was a personal decision that happened to work out. I enjoyed going to a University, so I would have done it anyway. Some of my friends were more interested in buying cars and clothes, but that was an empty life for me.

John: My experience is that formal education doesn't guarantee you anything. Rather, it is part of an overall package of formal education, job experience, contacts, skill at marketing yourself, having good references and a clean background check, plus some other factors like what the economy is doing and whether demand for your training is going up or down. Some of it is just who you are, and whether you're smart, and work hard, and can play well with others in a job setting.

If you don't have job experience in your field, people will let you volunteer to do things that they would never hire you to do (because of a lack of experience). I've done this myself, deliberately set out to put job skills on my resume through volunteering, and it worked. It can also help to not be too picky about which career you go into -- there have been some points in my life where, as far as I was concerned, if it wasn't illegal and it came with a paycheck, it was a good job.

I've seen people with associate's degrees, or no degree, do very well, and I know of at least one person who had a degree from, I think it may have been MIT, who spent years working in a bagel shop -- it was his student job, it took him something like 10 years to break out of that. After I graduated from college, my first job was: McDonald's (in the next town, my home town didn't have a McDonald's). Later, my half-semester of personal typing in high school was my meal ticket.

Most of us start off entry level, regardless of our education. What the education does is bump you further ahead in the line. Where the undergraduate degree finally paid off for me was when I went to work for what turned out to be my "real" career, and applied for a training program as a Contract Specialist for the federal government. I know for a fact, because they told me, that I got the job -- and others didn't -- because of my degree and which school I went to. I also got better access to training courses, and more prestigious work assignments, in part because my education made upper management perceive me as having more potential to grow professionally than some of the others. That said, I also have a law degree -- which I got later, at night, while I continued to work full time. The simple act of going to school at night helped my career. Other people were getting their undergraduate degrees at night, and they also were very clearly viewed as more motivated and career oriented.

Circumstances change. Recently, I was reading an article that said (I don't know where they got the statistic), that there is an 80% unemployment rate for new law school graduates - (there are reasons for that... law students are cheap to educate, all you need is a teacher and a classroom -no lab sciences, etc., some colleges use their law schools as a source of funding for other programs - so they're graduating way more lawyers than the market can absorb). Anyway, after doing the artist/stay at home mom thing for about 10 years, the chances of me getting employment as a lawyer in this market are slim to none. On the other hand, I was talking to someone at Redstone College, which teaches people how to build and repair airplanes, and they said they can place every person they graduate: with a 2-year degree. You have a point about the value of trade school.

Sometimes it helps to move to where the jobs are. If the jobs in your field are growing on trees where David is, by all means look at what Connecticut has to offer. When I graduated from college, I had no car and no money. So I worked at the McDonald's job at night to earn the money to move to Washington DC where there were a lot more jobs (translation: any jobs at all), and I could get around using the Metro system, without a car.

Do what you need to do. Persistence pays off. You'll get there.

No idea. I have a Licentiate from London [LRSM]

Not in visual art though :)

John Crothers said: "I noticed a common thread. Kevin and Valerie both mentioned the 80's. Was it different then in pre or infant Photoshop days? Graphic design was "harder" in the pre-computer age. Could that mean fewer people wanted to do it?"

That is an excellent question, John. No doubt it WAS harder, as we did everything by hand, even down to rendering everything in markers and colored pencil...NO photography of any kind was permitted (except in photography class). If the print ad you designed featured photography, you drew it yourself--ALL of us had significant training in drawing and were pretty skilled. We did not even have a copy machine to make duplicates of anything! We used a light projection machine called a Lucy that sat in a tiny darkroom. Talk about the dark ages. lol

As for fewer people wanting to do it...each design class at UF was limited to 30 students back then. No doubt they are much bigger now.

My class was the last class to graduate before UF brought in Macs. We were taught every skill a commercial artist would need at the time, including cutting rubylith and mechanical production for printing. All of it made obsolete by digital processes. Kind of sad, but I enjoyed every minute of it. I learned computer design when I worked in an ad agency several years later. Taught myself Quark Express and Illustrator on the job.

So, obviously, much has changed about a graphic design education. However--the fundamentals of good design and the history of art are still necessary. Hopefully they are still spending plenty of time on those. Anyone who has gotten a graphic design degree without spending a good bit of time in those areas just has what I would consider a vocational education. Sure, you can probably get a decent job, but you won't be as well-rounded or well-educated an individual.

When I worked at a magazine we never looked at anyone's degree before hiring a freelancer. Just looked at their previous work.

A permanent job might require more education because they might expect you to move up into management at some point.

The past yrs in the job world has been.."who you know not what you know". But I will say when it comes to your pay...you will get paid more if you start with a bachelors vs associates if you do land a job. But it all depends on the job, the boss, where you are, etc

Ex. I have a bachelors in Art & had a very hard time finding a job in any art field. I was working in a kitchen(hated it) at a nursing home and got stuck there for 10 yrs. Then b/c I knew the administrator at another facility...she took me into a different department that I have never done bc she knew my character & work ethics & knew I would be ok. Luckily I had the bachelors degree or I wouldn't of been able to get the position according to regulations.

I made it to the 3rd level of management (CEO, Directors, Managers), as a Manager of an entire department for a company that grossed 60 million a year and had fewer than 100 employees when I was 25, with no degree.

Then I got burned out and quit LOL.

I've encouraged my son to get a BA and more. While, I've done very well for myself with zero degrees in a world where degrees are critical, I would hate for my son to learn by the school of hard knocks. Since I am able to pay for his degree, it's a lot better for him than it was for me. I had to work and go to school and I had already learned to succeed without college. I believe that my son will have more to market himself with, but the degree can only work for him if he's willing to work very hard regardless of what he has as documents to show he pulled through with college. He has to learn NEVER brag, work with others nicely, and to make peace with those who may NOT be degreed, but are managing him.

Yes, the people I've known who have made it up through the ranks with no degrees have been very smart, capable people. They just don't happen to have *formal* education. It never pays to disrespect them.

'I graduated owing $0.00. So all I wasted was my time'.

Learning is never time wasted.

Cheryl, my wife and I have been working in the professional world for nearly 40 years and I could count the corporate people who worked up the ladder without a BA on one hand and have a couple of fingers left. Yes in some areas it works like acting and non corp sales. But not the norm.

Kevin, I agree it's not the norm. That's why the ones who do make it are usually impressive people - usually they don't let people know they don't have degrees, if they can avoid it. They're out there, though. I negotiated government contracts, so I dealt with a larger volume of corporate executives in a wider range of industries than most people do... either that, or businesses that do government contracting have a slightly higher ratio of non-educated to educated corporate executives. Since I dealt exclusively with government contractors, I was working with a biased population sample. Also if you include upper ranking managers who don't quite break into the President / Vice President levels, you get more people without undergraduate degrees. Often contractors are required to propose specific job categories with specific education and experience levels with the labor rates pre-established by the Department of Labor, so the playing field can get very rigid. People without degrees would have no access to many of those jobs.

" Graphic design is pretty much graphic design. Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign is pretty much the standard in the field an I learned to use them all."

Photoshop is not graphic design.
Illustrator is not graphic design.
InDesign is not graphic design.

Those are software programs. They are production tools.
Designers -- real designers -- get paid lots of money. Computer jockey's get scale.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Amen, Dan! That mindset is why everyone who had access to "desktop publishing" in the late '80s/early '90s thought they were a designer. Infuriated those of us who had actually spent the time and money to learn design, not just how to use software programs.

I was working on a two year degree in Teleproduction for my TV work. A year in, I interned at a TV station and then got hired before completing my degree. Not having that slip of paper never hurt me. I like to tell my basketball-loving son that his old man was a "one and done" in college.

I believe in some fields, interning is actually the best training for the job. When I got hired on by the company I interned for, the next new guy was a four year college graduate from a university. He worked in all areas of the campus media (radio, print, TV) but never actually interned. Later, he said not interning was a huge oversight for him and his professor. It was touch and go there for him for a while, but he did make it in the career and has since moved up a few notches at bigger stations.

Cheryl, you of course are quite correct. These successful people did it on a different path, but they are few and the norm is against those of us who are not "outstanding" but merely good. My great nephew spent time in the Navy as an electrician. He left then attended a civilian program and is an electrician for a large corporation. I would consider that success. The trades are good if that is where you want to be. If you aspire to a traditional white collar job a BA is still the best track, hands down. I grew up in farm country and today many of those still farming have some college and many of them have BAs in Ag from places like Iowa State. It is a different world from the 50s & 60s, or even the 80s & 90s.

Dan, thank you for that clarity. As a pro I can not tell you how many times I have heard "oh, we have a person who can do PowerPoint" then they send the project to me to fix. Running software and doing it at a truly professional level are two quite different things.

"Those are software programs. They are production tools.
Designers -- real designers -- get paid lots of money. Computer jockey's get scale."

Know any "real designers" that DON'T use those (or similar) products in their job?

Of course they are just production tools but try getting a graphic design job today without knowing how to use them!

Ok, there are two kinds of help, real help that you use and helped you get a job.

Certainly from the get the job angle it helps to the extent that it sets you apart. If it's an english or art degree that are almost as common as high school diplomas then not much. But certainly, for the most part it does give you an edge.

Now as far as did you learn anything useful that probably depends on the personality more than even the institution. I see people all the time with master degrees in finance that can't read a financial statement, people with engineering degrees that don't 'see' mathematics, and people in art that have no aptitude.

I think very few people get their degrees because they wanted to learn something but just for the hiring edge it's suppose to get you. This is a far greater waste of the money, than the job situation as it means they aren't as capable as they could be. So employers start devaluing people with degrees that learned nothing and were only in school to get their papers. It's not enough proof anymore that you know anything by just a degree. You have to have done something else with the knowledge you learned to get the hiring help you expected.

Even for me my first degrees were simply required by my folks (teenagers are universally stupid). I had to go back for round two because I knew I hadn't been paying attention the first time and I really do naturally care about the knowledge not the certificates.
-- mary ellen anderson

I always worry that I'm just wasting my money on my son's education in the arts. I'm happy to pay for it but I encouraged him to go into a field that he loves, but I don't think college can teach anyone success. It's purely a personality that succeeds in my humble opinion. In my not so humble opinion, one has to shake a lot of hands, smile, lie as they give speeches; make a lot of money; own exactly what they want, have a lot of time and vacations, and they have to be fit, impressive to look at and hated by everyone. Sorry for the run-on sentence. So can college teach you how to be successful? I doubt it and the aim of education is different than what most people consider successful. I guess my point is this: does education produce a better job and if college produces a job, is it necessarily a better income than working as a waitress making lots of tips or opening a lawn mowing company? I am really hopeful that it does but doubtful for some odd reason.