Another Story From Mr. Lik

Good luck to him. As he's worth $440M I don't really suppose he gives too much of a hoot what anyone says :D

I'd be more than happy with 0.25% of that in the bank!

- Richard Reeve
ReevePhotos.com

I like his background -

"Mr. Lik worked very hard and had sex with many models."

I pity the fools buying his work as an investment.

“Just a nice shot of Yosemite,” Mr. Lik said, summing up Adams’s work. “Right place at the right time.”

oh my....

Thank you for the link, Rich.

I was recently in Vegas and visited two of Peter Lik's galleries. I was very impressed with the man's work, the presentation of the art on the black or dark gray walls, and the courteous and informative sales people. No hard sales pitch from them, just interesting information how some shots were taken at different times of the day and blended together, etc.

The quality of what I saw was very impressive.

I like Peter Lik and congratulate him on his successes. I felt the same for the successes of the late Thomas "Kinkade". And also for the kitsch of the late Marty Bell too.

Taking advantage of the moments are what these artists did.

Making it in this "dog eat dog" atmosphere is a pretty hard thing to do. It's always easy to take potshots at the guy on top.

Glenn,

Are you saying that I posted this to take pot shots at mr. lik? Or Thomas?

Rich

Rich,

I think there are some shots taken in the article... wouldn't you agree?

“It’s an abomination,” Mr. Hoppen said of “Phantom,” in an article that ran in England’s The Independent. “Art, whatever the medium, is something that moves and informs you or changes your opinion. This has nothing to do with art or creative photography, and the tragedy is that it brings the whole business down.” He declined an invitation to elaborate.

Here's a slant from the article... "A lot of Lik buyers just want an appealing image to hang on their wall. But others have read about the emergence of painting, photography and sculpture as glamorous and profitable assets, and Peter Lik USA gives them a slice of that action. Or so they believe. Like many people who regard contemporary art as an investment, the slice is often worth much less than they realize."

Those are very familiar statements that I have encountered from naysayers for many years. And sometimes they are mere hitmen hired to bring down a competitor.

The Artnet information that you point out, and the entire article, has some redeeming qualities about it. However, some of the information from places like Artnet cannot be complete. Purchases that don't cross their path do not get counted. As someone that has worked in the secondary market, I found that there is tons of activity and information that does not make it's way to these sources. I know Thomes Kinkade and that many secondary pieces at the height of his popularity sold for extreme amounts to those who had no other way to get them except the secondary market. I always mentioned to my associates that as long as Thomad Kinkade held his personal credibility, and the economy did not take a major dump, those prices would continue to go up. Well... both situations nailed Thomas Kinkade. His personal problems and the economy torpedoed his standing. His work is still popular, but the luster has come off from the secondary market, unless it is a rare bird.

No Rich... I don't recollect mentioning your name.

P.S. Thank you for sharing this article.

I think the article summed it up rather well. No interest from the art world. High pressure sales tactics promising phantom investment potential. Beautiful vivid landscapes with saturated colors sold to rich tourists. Bogus record sales claims. Photographer has no interest in art or artists, just in it for the money.


Basically covers all that has been said before.

Tons (776) of used Peter Lik's for sale here: https://www.artbrokerage.com/Peter-Lik

Ha ha ha! The only difference in Lik and most people here is he is filthy rich and a bit arrogant. Some here are arrogant without being rich. I only recently heard of Peter Lik. I think I was flipping through channels one day and they had this documentary about this guy trekking through Death Valley taking photos. I think that was him but not sure as I kept on flipping through channels. Same when the baby lady came to FAA. I had no clue who she was and some thought that was hard to believe. Ansel Adams I have seen his work all over the place but never went to Yosemite pretending to be Ansel. Personally there are better photos here than the one that sold for the record from Antelope Valley. What does it all mean? I don't see why he should have an interest in art and like most of us here and here for only one thing for the most part. Cash! Some want and need less than others. I would be happy with a few sales to keep my tank filled to take road trips! Not holding my breath to be the next Lik, Adams or Kinkaid.

There's another difference: Lik's actual prints are radiant, and just glow. To me, they are a lot like the Cibachrome prints of yore. Sure, he's a great promoter. Sure, he hires whatever guides, equipment, and does the research to be in the right place at the right time. Make no mistake, he respects that last item, and it shows in his photos. I'm sure that any of us here would like to get the snowball of money rolling down and landing in the pocket that he has, and it's no accident.

But consider who might be the actual artist. Thousands of photographers visit antelope canyon, have an assistant throw sand down the hole, and get the shot. They're not all the same, but they're all rather similar, too. Who is the real artist? I nominate the scupltor who carved the canyon. All others are, to some extent, just the admirers of the work of the master artist.

Here's an icon caught by more than one artist:



I photographed this on 20070413_1201 (12:01pm Arizona Time), that is little before local solar noon. I wonder which of us photographed this icon first, and who photographed it before us? More importantly, I wonder about the turbulence, floods and events and forces that aligned to "randomly" create this marvelous feature. Does it bother me that he's made more money from his work? Nope. If he can do it, that means that we all can do it. My piece is every bit as close to my heart as his might be to his. The treasure of the experience, of being there and witnessing the original work is what warms my heart. Money would be fun, though.

Edward,

Sales and aggressiveness are part of almost every success story. As for not having any interest in other artists or the art world... by having that attitude he doesn't hear the naysayers and those who are constantly crying and whining about things. Some are nothing but dead weights to those who desire to progress further. There are tons of people like that in the art world. Lots of talent, but no drive or strength of character. He also doesn't get wrapped up in the critiques or opinions of others. That makes him a free bird.

Did they prove bogus sales claims?

As for interest in art... it seems to me he has a great interest in the experience in the creation of art. It just happens to be his own. He's so wrapped up in it that he doesn't have time to be worrying about others.

I like this one Gregory! We must also bear in mind that while FAA prints museum quality stuff there are printers that are so meticulous with their methods that they send a pair of white cotton gloves for the buyer to use when handling the prints. Shipping thousands of prints a day is not going to get you that quality. But our buyers are not spending that type of money either.

Glenn,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to show a lack of appreciation for his marketing and this applies to Thomas as well. They are/were great Marketeers! My point in posting this is to show that good or even very good images can be made "special" images with the right marketing. Kincade was a "master marketeer" as is Lik. And as Kincade/Estate experienced, when the marketing hit the "wall" the value of the "art" burst,like all "investment bubbles".

The same will happen with Mr. Lik.................

Rich

Gregory,

The image that Craig posted is much stronger than the you you posted. And if run through the "Lik" process, would be a big seller!!!

Rich

I never thought Lik was a great photographer, but he is a marketer, and I wish I knew his secret, I would barrow for sure...if I didn't have to sell my soul, not saying Lik did though.

TL Mair
tlmair.com

I have seen hundreds of images just as good as Mr. Lik's of the same scene. Without the phantom. Right time right place just happen to earn him millions. Congratulations to Mr. Lik.
I am envious of the timing.

As it is with anything, there is a time and window where opportunity must be taken advantage of. Peter Lik has done that. It's not necessarily that he created this frenzy about himself. Without others that saw a story and talent, he may not have made it to this stage. But what is intriguing about him and Thomas Kinkade is that they do have a story. They have lived out experiences that are adventurous and it builds the mystique about them. I invite anyone to read the course that Mr Kinkade took to popularity and say that it isn't an all American success story. From poverty to riches. Peter Lik is quite similar... and as someone above mentioned, he documents his experiences in travel quite well.

For those who constantly say "let the art do the speaking" I would counter that when the talented artist himself has a real and interesting story, or an expressive imagination, it is like mixing combustible materials. It gives salespeople something to talk about and buyers to think about.

I think Lik is a pompous you know what solely based on his shows and interviews.

I admire his success, and a good portion of his work though.

There were some axes ground in that article to be sure, but I do agree people probably think that the work will be worth more as time goes on, and a lot of it will never be.

A good portion of the people buy the photos to decorate with though, not to invest, I am sure they are happy as the work does occupy a space well.

With most "products", it's not necessarily the best one that wins in the market place, it's the best marketed one that's good enough. This is true for cars, computers, and toaster ovens...

I would have to say, at this point, that Mr. Lik's images are less than his marketing. In the photographic world, he is currently "king". He is by far, a better marketeer than a creator of art. As was Thomas.

If someone actually did pay for that image, as announced in the press release. I would be surprised! Seems like a Donald Trump kinda thing to me!

Rich

I was duped back in 2000 when Tiger Woods was on fire! I was watching one fo the Home Shopping Networks and they had these cards that were graded with some uncut sheets and so on. It was about 2 in the morning or some ungodly hour and they were going on and on and on about how valuable these cards would one day be. I think I ended up paying like almost 300 dollars for the whole thing. They are in a box some place and maybe one day they will be worth something but probably not in my lifetime. There is just too much Tiger memorabilia out there for them to even be a factor especially since they are not even done by one of the big name card companies like TOPPS or Upperdeck. With the amount of prints they are pushing I couldn't possibly see those prints going up in value even if they are limited to 995. Every year a new crop appears.

My final post on this and I will move on. I've been to Vegas more times than I can count on two hands and have yet to stumble upon one of Lik's galleries. I was taking photos on the strip on one trip outside the Aria and stumbled upon what they call Gallery Row and the high end retail shops called Crystals. There was a gentleman outside in a black suit, white shirt and tie presenting this gigantic landscape print. It was an awesome image no doubt and I think it was going for something like 12,000 dollars or more. Granted it wasn't in the heat of the summer where temps reach 120 or more but I was working up a sweat in a short sleave shirt walking down the strip. There were three galleries in a row one being sculptors presented by Cirque and the one he was representing I believe was Rodney Lough Jr. But the point I am trying to make is one must willing to pay a price or risk it all to get to that level. I couldn't even imagine standing out there in that heat trying to sell prints in a suit but if that's what it takes then that's what it takes.

Okay Rich...

Your handing out back handed compliments though!

We all know what opinions are like. As far as Lik goes and Kinkade goes... they both stand heads and heals above in most cases. Living artists that make it big are rare birds. Kinkade was one when he was here, and Lik, who is still here, has breathed air that we only dream of.

To say their marketing was better than their talent is just another opinion among the many. We disagree on those counts. So do all those who love and own these artists work instead of ours.

I hate to hear these kind of remarks towards others on the same path. They smack of sour grapes... and a reason why we butt heads so often in conversation. Success breeds contempt.

No amount of marketing or great locations or beautiful showrooms will sustain a bad product. At the end of the day, Lik produces a consistently superior product.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

It could be art is taking a turn because of the marketability of the internet and other marketing as Mr Lik is an example. I recently posted a video of a museum art expert who has written books and knows the museum crowd also works for various museums setting up shows. His mantra was it is OK to have beautiful art! I knew this for myself but to hear the museum trend setters say it was interesting. I don't think business will be as usual with artists like Lik leading the way. So much the better for the rest of us and I think this trend of thinking outside the museum box will continue to snowball.

Edward I don't need to point at anything. Most people who purchase actual art for their walls have heard of the man. They know he sells his art for $$$$ and $$$$$ and up, and while I don't have the name, I do have pieces they are intere$sted in and they only cost them $$$ or at the top top end $$$$. I've had conversations with real customers about Peter Lik, one even said one of my pieces reminded me of his style. That is out here in boondocks Kansas, you can't tell me other people haven't heard of him too in more art savvy places in the world. What harm has he ever caused me?

I agree with Dan, everyone thinks he is ripping people off, except his buyers who love his work. I learned a long time ago I am not my buyer nor my portrait client.....I wouldn't pay my own prices for something for my wall, and I wouldn't pay someone for portraits what I charge either, but the point is there are people who will.

My dentist has four different very large Peter Lik photos on his office walls.

Now I have to go back and tag or even re-title my antelope canyon keyhole photos with the word "Cavity:.

Does the name Nicholas Roerich ring bells for anyone? Roerich immigrated to the US from Russia after the 1917 revolution and became the Thomas Kinkade of of his day. Worth millions in the early to mid 1900s he was into the occult and hobnobed with important politicians like the VP of the us Henry Wallace. He has some of his works in museums around the world, mostly museums endowed by himself, and in Russia. Today he virtually forgotten as an important artist however the Nicholas Roerich Museum is still in NYC where on can see 100-200 of his paintings. Who knows why he was not picked up by subsequent generations when many of his Russian contemporaries were? I do suspect that Kinkade, for one should have built his own museum prior to his demise.

@Floyd - Really? Listen to the debates on minimum wage....

What is it with dentists and art? Mine has every surface covered. Most of it hideous. I think if mine had four Peter Lik's I 'd wonder why he kept finding problems and pushing for braces.

*** I stand corrected - not from NYTimes but artnet.com:


---------------
New York Times Exposes Peter Lik Photography Fraud
http://news.artnet.com/in-brief/new-york-times-exposes-peter-lik-photography-fraud-264858

I never can get more than a few sentences in on those stories because most of the authors are so busy spouting venomous bile about their perception of the "legitimacy" of Lik's photography that I really don't care if he inflated prices or not. So very, very tired of the art world "old guard" embracing thieves like Richard Prince while howling about anything related to nature photography as beneath them.

I wonder what his work will be worth 50 years from now without his marketing, hmmmm

"New York Times Exposes Peter Lik Photography Fraud"

Umm, OK. Where's the fraud part??


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Ed, your "fraud" link is an irresponsible writer's review of the New York Times article. The word "fraud" doesn't appear even once in the Times article.

You are WAY eager to bury Lik. Why?


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

As usual,when I post something like this, the same cadre of folks come out to "disagree" regardless of the facts that Lik's images are over priced,way over priced. And IF someone actually did purchase that print for the millions that Mr. Lik's company suggests, then I have some land here in Florida that I think would be a bargin, you know, once the water is removed and stuff.

Since there is NO history of any secondary market sales and in this day and age, EVERYTHING is known, then this is very scammy!

I think he's a very good photographer, but a much better marketeer, as I've mentioned here a few times, as was Kinkade. And the inherent "investment" system that he uses, to "encourage" buyers, is a masterful piece of work.

WHEN the next economic downturn comes around and these "investors" start to liquidate their "investments" the afore mentioned bubble will burst. That's just how these things work.

This stuff happens ALL the time here in Florida, so I kinda know where of I speak.

This isn't "sour grapes",since I wouldn't want to be in his shoes or even be part of his entourage.

People making judgement on the "quality" of his work, really aren't qualified to do so,sorry. This is a scam and will eventually come out. Because YOU don't see it, doesn't make it not true.

When I post something, there shouldn't be a "knee-jerk" reaction from you guys, since it's Rich. Sometimes I post stuff and I know what I'm talking about.

I'll leave this open until tomorrow, to allow anyone that feels they have some rational response, other wise, don't bother, you've already "made your bed",

Rich

Since Mr Lik has not promised anyone a return on investment, what do you think he should do Rich, Send him your advice on his business. I'm sure he is open to your notable expertise in how to present his work.

The reason it's the usual cadre of folks that disagree with you is probably because they are viewing things from a totally different perspective. And yes Rich, it does sound like sour grapes. If the bubble bursts they ( the purchaser ) have nobody to blame but themselves... if they are strictly buying for investment purposes. But then again, it won't just be Peter Lik's stuff that will be found to have less value. So will yours and mine. That's the way the cookie crumbles for everyone.

What I find amusing is your insistence that you have some kind of corner on facts... yet you haven't brought out anything except some articles. I just looked up some secondary market values on Thomas Kinkade's work. Some have gone down... and others have held their own and gone up. Pretty good for such a huge economic downturn that hasn't really returned. Peter Lik is a phenomena that rolls against the tide of the true economy... and those who just can't understand it are confounded.

Here's a fact... there is no guarantee that things will hold their value. Dan quoted Peter Lik above...

... “It’s like a Mercedes-Benz. You drive it off the lot, it loses half its value.”

Doesn't sound to me like he is pulling wool over anybodies eyes. That he has created a market is nothing more than astounding. That you think his work doesn't live up to the hype is opinion... not fact. Some will agree with you... and others will think that it sounds like envy to bitterness.

As for there being no history on secondary market sales, I dunno, and don't care personally. But I did see an episode of "Pawn Stars" where one was purchased at a pretty decent price. He didn't get what he wanted for it.... but he took home some bucks.

Well Glen I personally have no axe to grind but when a person like Lik sets up sales and marketing and claims sales in the millions, he certainly has promised something. At least implicitly, but then that is how a scam works isn't it?

Its a fact that Lik's art overpriced.....

HA! The fact that people buy them.... thousands of them....in fact would suggest otherwise. Seems like he is priced well for his own market. Sure they aren't worth as much on the secondary market, but the secondary market doesn't determine the price of a purchase directly from the Artist....never has, never will. Something is overpriced if it doesn't sell because people aren't willing to pay for it.

And yes that fraud link is just a really really bad article with a headline designed to garner clicks. It doesn't even interpret the article it quotes correctly.

I'm sure that this comes off as a Lik worshiper, and I am really not. I just think its crazy the hate that comes out towards him because he is successful.

Kevin,

I agree with Thomas Zimmerman. If people are willing to pay the price, what's the problem? Is Lik supposed to allow others to set up his marketing plan? Is there some kind of group that is supposed to tell an entrepreneur what he is to do? Has someone refuted those sales figures... with facts?

Implicit? You are only scammed if you are promised some kind of return. And you are a fool if you buy on those merits without understanding the risks. That folks are willing to part with their hard earned money for a Peter Lik photograph is a statement in itself. It's not as though he's scraping the bottom of the barrel! People who make money are usually a little bit more enlightened as to value. They like to be affiliated with winners... not whiners.

Aside from that though... he has some very nice work. More impressive when you see them in his gallery setting. You actually are grinding away with opinion Kevin. That's all this exercise is... opinions of which many are laced with animosity. It isn't as though Peter Lik was born with a silver spoon in his mouth either.

Caveat emptor...

I for one am encouraged that evidently even a mediocre artist can gain riches and popularity through hard work. More power to him, and may all of you benefit from his example. If you can succeed with greater artistry, more power to you. No sour grapes here. On the other hand, if he's is actually engaging in unethical behavior, you can be sure that in the very long run, he'll regret it. That's not for me to judge, however, even such as I know not to buy an investment at the peak of its value.

"This isn't "sour grapes"

It's totally sour grapes. And envy. And jealousy.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

I don't like rip offs. Just as I don't like those telephone scammers who call me at dinner. But go ahead and assume everyone is greedy.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/directory/peter-lik


Unfortunately most people who are scammed are too embarrassed to admit it.

Those phantoms are not as rare as one might think:

Just let it go! lol Or blog about it so you can get the people that hate him to buy your stuff! He has many haters out there too. If people are gullible enough to buy a print of anything thinking it may be worth something so be it. All the education in the world is not going to save them. Plenty of sites on the internet about how shady the art world is. Same with the stock market but you have the President of the United States telling people how they should invest in the market. So easy to say that over 100 years blah blah blah returns but what happens to those caught in the middle, retires and their portfolio is cut in half? They can't continue to work and they can't retire peacefully. Based on your theory everything is a scam. Every commercial on t.v. that use the right marketing words. FAA says upload your photos and start selling today! Is it true or false? Of course its true but can be false for those who don't comprehend the english language very well and don't know the steps to selling. No different from wannabe art collectors. There is an art to collecting art.
Edit:
Took me a whole 2 minutes to find the article below:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/24/art-auction-christies-personal-finance-picasso-desoto.html

In the art market, the corresponding phenomenon is the tendency of work by undiscovered artists to do better. Moses has collected data on 12,000 artworks that have shown up at auction at least twice since 1875. Smaller pieces–with starting prices of $25,000 to $100,000–clearly outperform the famous pieces–those starting out at $1 million or more. The compound annual return on the cheap stuff comes in at 8%, compared to 2% for the art that is already at the top of the price charts.

Food for thought for wannabe collectors:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/24/art-auction-christies-personal-finance-picasso-desoto.html

I don't see what the controversy is here. The guy is real good at marketing. It does not appear he's being fraudulent, however without having experienced the sales pitch first hand in one of his galleries I couldn't say for sure. I do envy his drive and ambition to sell his work, I wish I had just 5% of that. I'll admit I've never heard of the guy before I read this thread. I've visited high end photo galleries in Park City, Utah though, (Fatali is one) with large copies selling for several thousand dollars and never experienced any sales pressure.

I have nothing against the guy, however I'll make the observation that arrogance and hubris are more recognized in celebrity than modesty and craft. That's today's culture. How else would someone like Donald Trump have a TV show?

Very true. Sadly today celebrity comes first.

So many false accusations and so little time! Where to start. Let's start with simple, Dan! NO, it's not Sour Grapes, I wouldn't ever want to be a "Peter Lik". My entire reason was to show how good images can be parlayed into a mega market, as did P.T. Barnum and "the Donald"! This is the same thing as "Pet Rocks", just more expensive "rocks".

What all the FOD's are missing, is just because a bunch of rich people buy stuff, that doesn't make it "ART", one has nothing to do with the other. Here's another example of "limited editions" and the "promise" of increased value: Beanie Babies! Over $6 Billion sold!

"Ty Warner, a man who basically sells little bean bags for a living, pocketed about $6 billion. In 2003 Forbes magazine listed him as the world’s 44th richest person -in league with software giants, media moguls, and Arab sheiks."

Take a minute and visit eBay and see what's for sale of Mr. Lik's work and while you're there, click on "completed listings" to see ALL the sales.

Glenn, with your association with Mr. Kinkade, you should recuse yourself for judging Mr. Lik's work. IF you think/thought that Mr.Kinkade was truly a "world class artist" then any all other remarks,fall short. "Tickle Me Elmo" comes to mind.

So, if you have the time, read this from Edward's post:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Peter-Lik-Fine-Art-Photography/nationwide/Peter-Lik-Fine-Art-Photography-Peter-Lik-Scammed-Me-Las-Vegas-Nevada-Nationwide-1143219

I do, after 30+ years in the Commercial world of Photography, competing with National ranked photographers, working for major magazines, running a 10,000 sq. ft studio, know a bit more than most here,about photography. Simply just happens. There are a handful of people just like me, that contribute on a regular basis here and many more "lurking". I get invloved in discussions that I have some knowledge of and usually stay out of the others. (See Dan's recent posts)

Last week, when a new member posted images that he said were his, I was one of the first to "smell a skunk!". Why is that Glenn,Dan,Thomas,Floyd and others? Experience that's why, so get over it. There are people here that know more about stuff than you do and you may know more about your stuff, seems logical to me!

Bottom line, the "Lik Bubble" will burst,because it's based on salesmanship and not value.

As I mentioned last night, I will close this,since the lack of "rational responses" from the FOD's, well aren't rational!

Rich