Advice Please

unless they have the money up front, i'd run from this. a no name person, who is so no named she may have to go vanity on it, has no budget, but wants 2 dozen drawings - and i'm guessing the ones you have aren't good enough.. i'd say no.

most people that have approached me that was writing a book had the same deal. it was for charity, they can't pay, can you do it for free. can i have a cover, etc. no publisher, no money, etc. only work for those that can pay.

i suppose maybe you can tell her, that for XXX dollars, you can make the cover. the rest will have to survive without all the pictures. not sure why she needs so many anyway.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

It's up to you, of course. She's been painfully honest, but read between the lines. You're not getting paid for this

Is she asking the printer to print it for free, too?

That was my first reaction too but I must admit I am drawn to her idea since I am a cat lover. I just don't want to commit to a huge project without compensation. I will ask her if she means the entire series has 24 illustrations and ask her what the first one involves. She said:

"The first story is about a tiny black kitten lost in the rain. A nice lady finds her and rescues her. It is told from the perspective of the kitten but without being anthropomorphic. The first story is very simple and is for an audience of one to four year old children. At times, the story asks questions like, "What do you think the kitten will do?"

My idea would be to do the first story for charity. I have started a small organization called, "The Black Cat Protection Society". It's goal is to educate children on the plight of black cats. They are the most difficult cats to place for adoption because of the misunderstanding and myths about black cats. I would like to start doing local storytellings for various local cat charities. The proceeds would go to help these organizations."

Valerie, that's a great question. i can't imagine there are 24 illustrations in that first book so it might be the whole series. I will have to get more info. I really don't know how to answer this"
"Please give me your thoughts on this and let me know if you are still interested. I would also be interested to know the amount that you would want to produce the art.'

Valerie, that's a great question. Also, I can't imagine there are 24 illustrations in that first book so it might be the whole series. I will have to get more info. I really don't know how to answer this:
"Please give me your thoughts on this and let me know if you are still interested. I would also be interested to know the amount that you would want to produce the art.'

if you can make it very, very, very simple art. like a cartoon that takes 10min, then maybe you can get into it. but you won't get advertisement for it.

as for black cats, i would look into the witch/occult/goth communities. they would probably prefer black cats.


i think she will be shocked how much money it can cost, because making something for a book, is no different than making it for a wall.

for now, i'd get all the details, ask about these 24 images, how large, time frame, etc. it seems like a lot for what i'm guessing is a small book. if you want to get into it you could do the cover, however i would still suggest on licensing something you already have, and use that as the charity.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Karen, I can't imagine that you could produce these illustrations for even $250 each, but lets say that's the number. x24 = $6000. That's cheap. But here's my point: She could say OK, lets do one and see how it goes. Your first illustration could well run to $2000 because you need to ramp up, settle on a style, go back and forth. IF $6000 is the number (and I think that's too low) it almost breaks out to $3000 for the first one and $3000 for the next 23.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

(as for black cats, i would look into the witch/occult/goth communities. they would probably prefer black cats.)

That's a good one Mike.

I don't think I could do one in 10 minutes. she saw my work so she knows my style. I'm sure she must realize you don't just crank them out and your are right, it's no different than making it for a wall.

I looked back on my emailing with her and forgot that I had already replied and said that I wished her luck but have to say no to this. I just emailed her again and asked if she meant there are 24 in the whole series or just in the first book.

You would end up spending more run-around/collab/wasted time, together with creating the art, than she would in actually writing the text (which ain't much) for toddlers! If she's serious, she would have already done research as to illustrator contract fees.

"I do have about a dozen stories already written and they have been well received by the children that have been exposed to them.".... So, who/where were these children?

Personally, I would respectfully decline. It sounds like the beginning of a massive headache. JMHO

Dan...makes a lot of sense.

Sarah....that's true. I've been down this road before.

i'm thinking she has no idea how long it takes to make it, and wants it in full color - as a donation. i still wouldn't fall for it though. i'm sure she is getting money of some kind from it.

this does sound like way too much work, that will lead to nothing.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Thanks you all for your input. As I said, I forgot that had already declined but i emailed her again just to find out about how many total illustrations and how many in the first book. I'll let you know what she says.

I remember going through my Dad's papers years after he had passed away (when my mother passed). He was an artist and illustrator but I was a musician then and not an artist yet so didn't ask him much about it. I saw an invoice for a series of fruit illustrations that he did for someone (might have been for a sign or something). Each fruit was $25. I wonder what that would be in today's money.

walk away, wait never mind, run away.....I was once contacted by a company about using some of my pictures in promotional material and advertising, same song and dance, they didn't have any money but the "exposure would be good for me" I said no thanks.....for the record they are band and currently sponsor a big concern pavilion on the Boston waterfront.... yeah I am sure they didn't "have the money"

in today's money - $25. people are very cheap.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Ouch! How could it be? Still $25......oh my.

Clearly, she hasn't done the homework re book publishing. She probably hasn't even done a storyboard or layout for the first book, if she even knows what a storyboard is! Small budget? Her budget/her money or the charity'sI Gee, is she the charity? "The Black Cat Protection Society" -- is that "big" cat or "kitty" cat? Is it a legally formed organization? Has she set up a website for this charity? Too many questions... no clear answers. I suspect the book(s) would be DOA!! Walk away!!

Yep. That's what it sounds like. i think she means well and has good intentions but is either very misguided or naive. I am getting my running shoes ready.

there are many out there that are clueless to how much things really cost. if they were real they would say that they had X amount to spend. and not bring up a charity. you here that and its' the money flying away. the artist gets the short end of the stick, while the book would probably sell better with the pictures. do keep all the mail from you and her talking, so you have a reference just in case she takes an image anyway.


i can see her saying - either:

1. she agrees on the main price, but orders just one image for the first charity book for a low amount of money. and you never see the order again.
2. she says there will be more orders, but still gets the first one for a low price, its for charity after all.

in any case, i don't see this one as a good deal

the fact she said she isn't paying, and would go to a hobbyist because after all, hobbyists love working for free on something that they can't do something with the images afterwards.

the other question to ask is -- are these images exclusive?


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I'm not a fan of running away. Give her a price and make her say yes or no, or "lets negotiate."


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Maybe it's just me... but illustrations of all black cats for little kids sounds a bit on the dark side. I would think kids want COLOR and lots of it, i.e., fat tabby, tuxedo, spotted, persians, polka dot, etc.!!

So, she is looking for an illustrator, found a cat lover who happily announces it in her biography and says that the first books profits go to a cat charity THAT SHE CONTROLS.

I know that Abbie dislikes when people use the word scam for something that can't be proven to be a scam but this quacks like a duck.

Yes, but the whole idea is to educate them about the plight of black cats and starting the "The Black Cat Protection Society".

Dan - i will see her response and take it from there. good advice. Thanks

I don't actually think it's a scam...I just think that she--like SO many other people--undervalues the work of an artist. I highly doubt she would ask any of the other publishing vendors to contribute their work for free. Even if I were tempted because I liked the subject matter, I wouldn't do it. It sets a very bad precedent, for ALL artists.

Here's an update:
I said "Are you saying there are 24 illustrations in the entire series or in the first book? Are you paying to have it printed or have you found a printer willing to do it for charity?"

This was her reply:
"I am estimating that there would be 24 illustrations in the first book. It is a picture book. That could be adjusted as we could have some pages have the illustration cover both sides of two open pages. We could also rely on repeating simpler images on some pages.

I have not approached a printer at this point as I do not have a completed project. I could attempt to find someone willing to do this on spec or for charity. I will also research the cost to have it printed myself. If I did get a printing made, we could recoup the costs first and then donate the balance to charity.

What I am hoping is that I can get the work out and get a good response. Then I can take that and go to a publisher in hopes of producing the rest of the series. If that doesn't pan out, we would have at least had the pleasure of producing one beautiful book and helped a good cause as well."


Val - so she hasn't approached a printer.

Dan - What price could I give her? If i say I will do one or a cover for lets say $300. What does that accomplish?


I don't like this sentence:

"If I did get a printing made, we could recoup the costs first and then donate the balance to charity."

WE?????? Is she expecting me to contribute money?????

I think I should just say no.

Karen,
Your last 2 paragraphs clearly show that you have thought through this offer far more than the person who made it.
I see that you have already responded...I look forward to hearing her response. I think it will bring closure to this type of solicitation.

Mike said, "i don't care much for kickstarters, i know people here use them all the time, but i see it as begging on the street for loose change and i think people abuse it. i think you should earn the money to make the things you want to make and not get it from other people. if your sick and dying. if you have no way to make the money and so on, then i see no issues. it should be to help someone. but to make calendars, or to help them get a better camera or something like that. i consider that abusing the system."

EXACTLY.

I guess maybe because it would NEVER occur to me to ask another professional for free work that I don't approve of it here. I was not aware, Floyd, that this IS happening in most other professions. Bartering, at least makes some sense--if I have some home repair to do, maybe I could design a business card for the handyman in exchange for the work. But to flat out ask him to do any or all of it for free??? Positively, absolutely not. It's just rude and disrespectful to him and his livelihood.

I don't mind kickstarters if the objective is to cover the costs to get a product to market that I like and the rewards are appropriate. People aren't asking for free money on kickstarter, they have to offer something of value in return for your pledge. I pledged support recently for a new design for an electric eraser, being a mechanical designer I knew it a was very good design and I really wanted one, and was willing to pay a lot more because the cheapos you buy in the art stores are just awful and worthless. Unfortunately the kickstarter didn't get fully funded.

Back on subject, I agree with the others, charge what you are worth, if they are not willing to pay move on.

"Back on subject, I agree with the others, charge what you are worth, if they are not willing to pay move on."

I totally agree, that is a valid position that each individual has to make if it is right for them or not.

But to me, it is perfectly legitimate thing for people to be looking for partners, joint ventures, supports or what ever you want to call them and ask for sweat equity participation.

if that writer was a known person, and they had proof that they have sold before, and you can find that. and or if that person met them half way and said, i can pay you later, but here's half up front. then maybe a deal could be made. but the fact that the person is confused about how they think they will own the image after its purchased, and they had no intention of paying, and they never wrote a book at all, then its not much of a venture.

the other party needs to give a little too. spending hours making something new - and not getting paid, and not getting anything at all for it, is a raw deal. if she had the images already, she might be able to take a chance, but then after reading about how she thinks its hers now - i would pull it right on back.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

It seems that Karen has made her decision so there is nothing to gain by discussing the op any further.

I only want to say one last thing or two.

If she was a known author with successful experience, she would not be looking for help the way she is.

It goes with out saying that there would be a lot of details to be worked out and agreed upon. The fact that she did not have all of her t's crossed and i's dotted really doesn't mean that much. She admitted she had never done this before and it was basically a startup venture. To me that offered an even greater opportunity because being an infant start up, YOU would have more input as to what the project would turn into. Depending of course on how much involvement you would want.

It is my opinion that there is much more to be gained by looking at any opportunity from a positive, open minded perspective then one of oh, here's another leech trying to get something for nothing.

having an open mind is one thing. putting in a lot of work, and getting nothing out of it at all - is another. she has to make it from scratch you know? she wouldn't have any input, the book isn't done yet, and it sounded like a hobby to me. once she tells her friends writing books that she got an artist to give her a design, or all of them - then she will be known as the one that gives free stuff away.

its not a good deal any way you look at it.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

This was a pretty much wide open offer to get involved in at any level one chose. As I said, all those details were yet to be worked out.

No one any where is saying she should have done it and got nothing out of it. No one is saying she should give anything away for free.

Making something from scratch is converted to a value, just like any other product. That has to be weighed and taken into consideration just like any other asset. The author created here story out of scratch also. It is her creation. The idea is here creation.

There is nothing magic in making anything from scratch that you can not put a value on it. It is done everyday. It has a value, no one is denying that or suggesting it doesn't. The gal making the offer never even implied that anyone should work for nothing.

As the first proposal was related to us, the money was deferred, and I agree there was a possibility that, as structure, there was a big chance there was not going to huge money. But those are the things that can be worked out and restructured when you get in early. If you can't get what you want, you pass. Pretty simple stuff.

The opened minded positive approach is going to get you further then the oh, well another leech approach.

I can not image going through life with that attitude.

From what little information that we were given, I would have probably had a hundred questions I would have asked and suggestions that would have made depending on the answers I would have gotten.

There was simply not enough information given here to base any of those negative assumptions on. Those assumptions come for the outlook of the one making them, not the facts that remained unknown.

I agree that I would be wasting my time PLUS doing most of the work, maybe even ALL of the work. It's a picture book for 1-4 year olds. Can't be too many words in there.

She probably assume a publisher will love it and take it on. But, her other statement "....or we could self publish...." tells me she expects me not only to do all that work for nothing but add money to self publish as well.

Floyd, when you donated your frames did you also have to make those frames? Let's assume you were asked to make 24 frames and if the artist couldn't find a venue for a show to display them would you split costs to rent/find a venue? At least it would be a finite amount of time you put into making those frames whereas 24 images (paintings or drawings) can be tweaked forever with no compensation.

BTW she hasn't responded to my last message to her.

she comes back and asks you for words that rhymes with cat...



---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Or pictures of children, miscreant adults and dogs.

I once had an artist come to me and wanted more than two dozen free frames. Every frame shop in San Luis Obispo where she lived, 40 miles north of me, had turned her down.

I asked to see here work. She said she did not have any with her. I asked her why I should give her free frames. She said because she had a one women show in a gallery in Los Angeles. I asked her if she was any good, she said she would not be in that show if she wasn't then said she really didn't what them for totally free. She would pay me for the ones where she sold the paintings. I asked her how many she will sell, she said she hoped to sell at least four or five of the 24 or so paintings.

I asked her to show me here work. She came in two days later with 3-4 of her paintings. There were fantastic!! But much larger then I was expecting.

I asked her the name of the gallery and the telephone number of the owner. I called him and he verified she was in the show. I asked him how good was she and how many paintings he realistically thought he would sell. He said he would probably sell a minimum of 5-6 but hopefully more.

To make a long story short, I framed the paintings. I held one of her paintings that were not going to show until she paid me for the frames that sold. She came back and paid me for ALL of the frames and paid me to frame the one I was holding. The guy in LA wanted all of her stuff on a permeate bases. Years later she was still buying all of here frames from me and kept buying from the gal that bought me out.

She later moved to San Diego and opened her own gallery. She has since been taken from us by cancer.
Seeing that she had already been turned down by several other frame shops, I could have easily said, oh, gawd, another leech artist looking for a handout.

But that is what having an open mind and asking the right questions can do for you.

Oh, I also should mention that because there was a chance that I may never see my money or my frames again, I made all of those frames myself. You might even say there were made from scratch. lol

Karen!

I wrote that out before I seen you question. How timely was that...?

Yes did the framing myself, when ever I gave away of loaned frames to an artist and they had to be custom made, I made them myself. I did not want to add to the cost of wages to the cost of the frames of those frames. Plus I usually did the work on late at night, early in the morning or on Sundays so it it did no disrupt the work flow of the shop.

but there is a big difference here, you know she is a painter, can get a show, can maybe get sales from this and so on. but in karens case, she's making a childrens book, about a topic that couldn't possibly sell well, and seems to be depending on the pictures to make the whole thing work for her. in your case, you were almost promised she would make money. this person sounds more like they will be doing it as a vanity press.

and you held one of her paintings hostage until she paid. and you were paid. this person never mentioned a payment. and is willing to go to a hobbyist instead.

a painting takes time to make, i can't say how long but a week is probably an under estimate. a frame, once you have the measurements, what like an hour or so? you could bang them all out in a day or two. paintings from scratch - it could be a year long project with no promise of a payment.



if we retold the story based on the original

a lady walks into the store, she wants 2 dozen frames, she has no money. she has no art, she wants to be a painter, and has plans on maybe being in a show, where she might sell some things if she can do the art. she wants free frames, with no money up front, and she may never get into a show.... -- do you make the frames?


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Karen, please understand I am not saying you should take this offer. That is none of my business. Only you can decide that.

All I am saying is that the knee-jerk reaction in these threads always seems to be the same. Another leech trying to get something for nothing form the poor put upon artist.

That, in my opinion is a very sad position to be coming from.

It is like the poor guy that wanted to sell the FAA gift certificate he won... he was immediately labeled a scammer. Never mind the fact that he sold one before and the buyers name was known to all. All they had to do is email the previous buyer and find out if he was scammed. Final that buyer showed up and sure enough it was a valid transaction and offer and was not a scam at all.

The glass is always half full approach will serve a person much better in life, imho.

I will tell you right now Karen. This gal is not totally naive. She had the good sense to see that your work, if you had decided to do it, would have been a huge enhancement to here book.

Did you ever get a the text to any of her books she claims to have written, especially the one she wants you to illustrate?

That would have been my first question to her. No the money. The money may depend on the potential of here writing ability or if she was really lousy, there may be no amount of money that would want you to be associated with her.

Mike, I am not going dignify your crazy analogies that you dream up to support your own case.

Every case is evaluated on the merits of what is known or what is yet to be leaned. It is as simple as that. There was and still is a lot of missing information here. You assume the worst, you always do. I never do. I have made a ton of money looking for reasons do things, not making up reasons to do nothing.

I have ended up in some pretty sweet deals because I was open minded enough to look at them in a positive light.

How can you possible start any positive relationship with some one who's first reaction is always the same.... leech looking for a handout.

i'm not dreaming anything. your case - you knew she was a seller, you knew she was probably going to sell, you verified it with another gallery and you held something of hers until you got paid. its not remotely the same as a lady writing this book.

i'm not assuming the worst, i'm reading what was written.

i see no money in this deal at all. its not about being open minded or not, this person wants free art and doesn't have a name or a book to show for it. because a relationship involves trust, and if the other person doesn't show any trust at all, you can't trust them at all. if the same thing happened to you where they had no art, no gallery or anyone to vouch for them - would you have done this deal?


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Here is something else I would have done if I was even slightly interesting. I would have called her on the phone and just a got a much, much better feeling for the person you would be dealing with. Email is not the great communicating device that the world like you believe it is.

what if the frames took you a week to make each one - would you still go on with it?


i can't imagine how phone call would solidify anything. if she has no money, she has no money.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"i see no money in this deal at all."

Never assume there's no money or compensation, no matter how crazy the initial request sounds. Always be a professional. Give them a price, ask for more info, call them -- whichever seems the most appropriate.

Always remember the money doesn't have to come from them. It can come from a family member, business associate, bank loan, credit card, etc. Compensation can be ANYTHING you agree on. I've accepted luxury boxes at sports arenas, office space, vacations in Vail, a two year old Lincoln Continental, dinners at upscale restaurants, gym membership (that was sort of a waste for me!), and spa treatments at resorts (which I trade or gift for other things). Often you can turn things you trade into a lot more money than you would have initially charged.

We are creative individuals. Be creative!


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Karen said, "It's a picture book for 1-4 year olds. Can't be too many words in there."

That made me laugh out loud! You are so right. How much writing work can SHE possibly be contributing to this project of hers? Seems like YOU would be doing vastly more work than she is. I think you made the right decision.

if anything at all, maybe you should make your own book...


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Let me repeat this, I think you may have missed it when I posted it earlier: Mike, I am not going dignify your crazy analogies that you dream up to support your own case.

You are just coming up with non existing scenarios that support your position. That is exactly what I am talking about when I say looking for reasons to not do something.

Every single opportunity is weighed according to the merits of that opportunity based on the facts and details and potential that either does or does not exist. Not a bunch of what ifs that don't exist.

You say you see no money in this deal. I know you don't, that goes without saying. No one that approaches all of these kinds of requests as "just another leech looking for a freebie" would.

"i'm not assuming the worst, i'm reading what was written.'

And I have a totally different perspective that suggest to me that what is written is only part of details that I would want before deciding what you have already made your mind up to without even wanting to explore possibilities.

"i can't imagine how phone call would solidify anything."

That is a total miss-characterization of what I said. I never said a phone call would solidify anything. I said: I would have called her on the phone and just a got a much, much better feeling for the person you would be dealing with.

That is exactly what I said, including the extra the bad grammar and typo.

Again, this is just like the guy with the gift certificate. I don't see why anyone deems is necessary to put a neg spin on this. This is a legitimate offer by all indications. It may be lacking in many aspects.

She says this is not a complete project, she says admits she had never published, she admits she is looking for someone to do this on spec. That is pretty straight forward. She is not an accomplished publisher. She admits that too. If she was, she would not be here looking for this kind of help. But i see that that too may actually be more of a positive then a negative. If you can't see why that is, then no, you will never see these things as an opportunity.

no. your missing the point of this.

you already had someone that was going to make money, you didn't trust her and contacted someone else and you held something of hers until she paid.

and if it took you a week to make one frame - what would your answer be?

the scenario i wrote is the same one as the lady with the book. sorry if you can't see it that way.


we are talking about a person who wants a picture book for 1-4 year olds about the plight of the black cat, a person who hasn't made the book, found a publisher, a person who was confused about how the art belonged to her, and she didn't mention paying anything at all.

calling someone to get a feeling? listen, business is business. your better getting it all in writing then using a phone. a sweet talker can easily talk people into things. i personally only work with email because you need a paper trail. besides what can this person possible say, that she hasn't said already about a deal like this?

i don't see why you must argue with everything.


i don't see this as an opportunity because i doubt she can bang out 24 designs in a few a days. while she's not getting paid for this one, a real deal might come along. its not the same as making a few frames up. these things take time. and its not like the artist you made frames for would come back and say... i don't like that frame, can you make it a different color? because that's what will happen with this.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

There is always the possibility that an opportunity is missed and I gave this plenty of thought. I brought this to discuss here because I was undecided at first and wanted opinions. I didn't think she was a leech or looking to scam me. I checked her FB and felt she was just young and naive which she confirmed by what I related here. This would be one massive headache for me. Much too much effort for what was proposed.

It has been an interesting discussion and I thank you all. If she contacts me I will certainly let you know.

Karen, I never in any way indicated that I though you were approaching it as if she was a leech. That was obvious from your first post. I have said that it was your decision to make. Not mine or anyone else. My position was more of a generic one that had little to do directly with the specific offer and more to do with approaching these sort of offers with an open mind. Not necessarily directed to anyone.

It appears that you did that as the offer related to you and you probably made the right decision as the offer related to you.

Made to the right person in the right forum this maybe would end up being a great opportunity. If I was still publishing I would be asking you for the referral as soon as you made your final decision that you did not want to get involved.

My wife and I are both cat lovers, I know how to get hings published and I know artist that can do the drawings and have done book illustrations before. But my wife would kill me if I even hinted I was thinking of getting involved.

The thing I have a problem is that you can pretty much rest assured that the next time, the next 50 times that any legitimate offer, and I believe this was a legitimate offer, is made here, you will get the same knee-jerk response form the same people. That has been how it has been for three years I have been here, same people, same closed, leech looking for a handout attitude every single time. Why would I expect that to change?

I do not include you in that group. Never seen you say anything like that. In fact quite the opposite. I have seen you very opened minded and willing to lean and try new things and work hard to make sales.

It is not an argument unless someone makes it one. Just because some one disagrees with another person or has a different opinion that is not an argument.

I will continue to post opposing opinions where I think they are warranted. I will be the one that decides what I post

I would suggest that anyone stop reading what I have to say if you find it so disagreeable.