Dirty Little Secrets

There are posts made on FAA that don't have anything to do with art (or anything else interesting at all) - you know, cutesy-poo cat videos and other assorted stuff. I never even open those posts.

However, to anybody reading this, this one is worth it. But a BIG caution: if you don't want to read about companies and products you deal with all the time doing things to cheat, lie, and rip you off, then do not read the linked article. The more you read, the more you WILL get pi--ed off. Guaranteed. Thanks, Lance. I will spread this around myself. Nothing like having some fun pi--ing off friends and family! LOL!

Yeah, I really think that everyone should read this. It gives you a pretty clear perspective on the true nature of human beings and the business world. I guess the challenge would be coming out of it without being completely misanthropic.

well I read through quite a few of the "comments" and did not find anything that surprised me all that much. But it was a fun read.

Good link, but I stopped reading about 1/2 way down. I didn't read anything I didn't already know about since I was a young naive guy. Maybe I'm just more well read (and jaded) than other people, but these days very little about greed and the human condition surprises or shocks me anymore.

and i looked it up

http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=casket&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=0

you can get them on walmart. and they look nice. they send it right over to the funeral home in a few days. i didn't check the shipping, but it's like half the price if you go with deluxe models. real jewish people usually put them in a pine box. simple stuff.


---Mike Savad

The link I posted was filtered by the "best" posts (I guess that means the most views/responses?). You can set the filter to "newest" as well. It seems to go on forever. I'm pretty jaded as well but I guess my surprise was in how many different routine aspects of ours lives (and deaths, apparently) we are being conned / robbed.

Lance, the trouble is that if we dwelt on that thought, we'd go crazy. And many people have! Moreover, there isn't a whole heck of a lot we can do about it so there is little point in getting worked up.

@Chuck

I agree with you. Getting "worked up" and not doing anything but driving yourself crazy doesn't help at all. However, imho, awareness is important. For all of those people who aren't "in the know" or who are young and naive or who drank the Kool-Aid at some point; awareness is the key. At the very least, it might help keep people from having money Hoovered out of their wallets everyday. It might help people to defend themselves against the daily swindle that awaits them when they walk out the door (or get online).

Hoovered! Awesome! Haven't heard that one in 20 years. You know you're giving away your age...

Yep. I'm an old fart.

Interesting link Mike. Considering we just buried an older brother unexpectedly and despite having a policy they said he was a few inches wider than a normal body thus we had to pay extra for a wider casket. Of course family members are distraught and can't think straight during these times. Do you really need a funeral home? County morgue and a casket from Walmart. I told everyone there that just a simple cremation and a few sprinkles in any major ocean in the world would suffice for my body.

as an aside I actually know some of the heirs of the Hoover company. There were 2 brothers, one had three daughters and because dear old dad was a drunk they got snookered out of any major inheritance.

We say hovered here in the uk as a matter of everyday

I am NOT surprised by the "dirty little secrets" in the article linked to in this thread.

I sense that many people have zero personal work ethic - they justify doing a job to a level of excellence ONLY in proportion to the salary they are paid, and since many people are stuck working for a low salary, they are stuck in habits of low commitment to performing those jobs.

On the other hand, I regard my efforts as my personal signature, regardless of how much money is involved. If I take on a task, then I take it on FIRST, because I am committed to performing it with some degree of excellence. If I am not willing to put anything into it, then I do not do it.

Even if we are forced to work for small amounts of measurable compensation, still we should work for the sake of living.

I have sometimes asked people, "At what point in your life will you start to perform your tasks with great care? When will you ever perfect the practice of great care, if you never practice great care to begin with?"

Some people act as though they can magically execute the great-care button when someone finally offers them enough money to do so, only to find they they have not trained themselves to care all along, thus, setting themselves up to fail, because they do not know how to physically perform in this mode.

It's like being an athlete - you cannot just decide one day to run 5 miles, not having ever run before. You have to train at running to run well. Similarly, you have to train at performing a job well, in order to actually be able to do it, when the opportunity comes along with greater pay.

The so called "dirty little secrets" in the work force (in my opinion) mostly stem from this false concept of "waiting for the right pay to start working seriously".

@Robert

That's great but this thread isn't really about you and your personal commitment to excellence. There are plenty of people that try to excel at whatever they do. The problem is, imo, mediocrity is rewarded more than anything else. If you strive for excellence, it can make you a target. If you strive for excellence, you might be rocking the boat. The people that have power don't really want someone in their midst that might threaten their position. The biggest dupe of all is that the wealthy and powerful want you to join their club.

I grew up in funeral homes and could never understand why people wanted to be embalmed, looked at in a casket, then stuck in the ground.

Why not devote your body to science?

The thing I noticed reading this is none of these are things you are FORCED to do.

Are companies trying to make money off you? YES! Is that a surprise for anyone?

Do companies have bad employees and policies? YES! Is that a surprise for anyone?

Boo-hoo. Do things yourself, or deal with the way things are.

As anyone who has worked in the restaurant industry can tell you...you don't want to know what goes on behind the scenes in the restaurant industry. But, most times what you don't know don't hurt you. If that statement disturbs you, don't go out to eat.

If what the farmers are doing with your food bothers you, grow your own food.

It is nice to live in a country with so much excess we can complain about such things instead of spending our time trying to figure out where our next meal is coming from!

@John

Yes you do have a choice and you don't HAVE to do anything you don't want to but that's not the point. The stance that, "If you don't like the way it's done, do it yourself." is false logic. The point is that people are making uneducated decisions based on, at best, faulty info and at worst, straight-up lies. They are spending too much money that they are probably doing something they hate to earn to buy products and services that aren't nearly as good as advertised. All of your statements sound logical but if thought out to conclusion, are not. Your basic argument is to quit complaining about your problems because it could be worse. Of course it could be worse but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it better.

yeah the behind the scenes for hotels, and restaurants are just bleah. i worked in a hotel for a month or so, and the prettier it looks on the outside, the grosser it is on the inside. what it looks like in a school cafeteria, is how most places look.


---Mike Savad

The stance that, "If you don't like the way it's done, do it yourself." is false logic. The point is that people are making uneducated decisions based on, at best, faulty info and at worst, straight-up lies"

Don't forget the consumer's responsibility as well. Are they inflating the value of something to make themselves feel better? Are they lying to themselves on why they NEED something? People will blame the marketing but people have to also be responsible for how they decide what is valuable. Diamonds are basically just rocks right? But we lie to ourselves and say they are precious stones. I have heard that DeBeers controls most the world's diamonds and they limit the supply to make them seem more rare than they are. But they couldn't DO that if we all looked at them for what they are...rocks.

Price is based on supply and demand and demand is usually based on how much value we attach to a product. Other than food, water and shelter everything else is perceived value.

When an artist sells an original for $5,000.00 and prints for $50.00 are they just inflating the value of the original? It may be the ONLY original painting but it is not the ONLY version of that image. They are adding a value to the original by calling it one-of-a-kind and people believe it (I happen to believe it). That is an accepted belief. But not everyone thinks the original is worth 100 times more and would be quite happy with the "copy".

@John

I agree with you to a point but once again, there is a line between supply and demand and a con. Sure, you want to make your product look as good as possible BUT if you are offering one thing and supplying something different and inferior, then, as far as I'm concerned, that is criminal. I place a value on my work and that value is what I think it is worth. What I do here is supply and demand in it's purest form. I put a price on my product and I get it. There are those that price their work higher than mine and don't get paid. If I were to advertise my photographs as acrylic airbrushed paintings on canvas, then that would be more akin to what I am talking about. I'm sorry John but trying to justify the giant Three Card Monte game that business has become is just that - a justification.

Lance,

What is the solution?

Gas is expensive because they found out we'd pay $3.50 a gallon. Internet and the stupid cell phones are expensive because we seem to think we have to have them.

Do you think the government should set prices? Should they get into the gas, internet, cell phone and diamond industries like they are with health care?

Do you want them to tell you what you should charge for your products or should you be able to get as much as you can for them?

Thing is we live in a free market and a free market contributes to advancements.

@John

Okay, so now you've made it clear where you stand politically. What does that have to do with my OP? Are you planning on starting a shady business that scams people out of their money and don't want to be regulated by the Nanny State? I'm not quite sure what your issue is. A solution? The solution is for people to be aware of how they are being scammed on a regular basis so they might be able to save their money. Is that not fiscally responsible? You seem to be trying to politicize this. Not everything is an attack on your political beliefs.

Lance,

My "political beliefs" are that they are ALL full of shit. I don't trust them and I don't want any of them more involved in anyone's life than absolutely necessary. You have no idea where I stand politically.

"The solution is for people to be aware of how they are being scammed on a regular basis so they might be able to save their money"

Most people learn that by 1st grade. Ever see a kid save up their money to buy something only to find out it is a piece of crap? Then again, I guess there are people that still send money to that Nigerian prince so is there anything that can be done to protect the ignorant? Ever hear of "Buyer Beware"?

@John

I am quite aware of "Buyer Beware", the mantra of every shady business man who has ever screwed someone out of money. Who is the "they" that is full of it? I'm not sure which school it is that teaches first graders how to be a smart consumer but wherever it is, I want to live there! Wow. Just imagine - a school that makes cartoon laden commercials for sugar frosted cereals obsolete! Neat!

And that's enough about politics.

Lance I shared that page and it seems most, including me, were shocked more when reading the one about the funerals. We sort of knew the others :)

@John

Wow! You must have had one heck of a 1st grade. Because mine didn't get into anything about how the funeral industry may try to scam you. This might be a bit of a shocker for you but not everyone thinks to look up the funeral regulations with the government. But after reading that interesting post, I plan to see what is required in our state. And I wouldn't have known you can buy your own casket and not have to use one from the funeral home. And yes, I did happen to think they keep some in stock, so if that is true and they don't and it is ordered and shipped the next day, I didn't know that either. How wonderful it is for you to have knowledge of everything. Unlike us mere mortals.

@Lance

Having worked in corporate america it really doesn't surprise me. But it's not always my first thought in some areas of life. Like when a family is emotionally distraught dealing with grief from a loss, not always thinking clearly and can get manipulated into spending more money. It may not be illegal, but it's most definitely unethical. But that seems to be what's been missing in the business world for a long time, a bit of ethics. And should anyone try to regulate it on any level to reduce the amount of unethical behavior, we get lambasted.

"I am quite aware of "Buyer Beware", the mantra of every shady business man who has ever screwed someone out of money."

The mantra of people with common sense!

" Who is the "they" that is full of it?"

Politicians. I lump them all together.

" I'm not sure which school it is that teaches first graders how to be a smart consumer "

It's called the "school of life". Like I said, when the kid saves their money to buy some toy that falls apart on day one.

By the way (both of you) I said...

"Most people learn that by 1st grade."

I never said people learn it IN 1st grade.

@Abbie

Yeah, the funeral thread is the one that disturbed me quite a bit. I think when you look at all of the different "secrets" laid out before you, it has kind of a disturbing effect on a different, "big picture" level.

Yes indeed. You know deep down all the little stories, we see them shared around social media etc......but seeing them all one after the other has quite a sobering effect

Doesn't it just?

@John

Then you must have a heck of a Kindergarten or home education. You were grasping all of this by age 4 or 5? Amazing!

@Roseann

Yeah, I've worked in the corporate world as well and I guess that deep down everyone realizes that they are a cold, heartless machine. I think that what is disturbing about the thread is that you really get to see example after example of what exactly goes on and how it affects people.

@Lance

I believe there was a time when people took pride in not just the work and making money, but the quality of the product, the fact that they were helping their community by providing good paying jobs and the economy was in a fair balance with what people could afford, so getting by on one salary was possible. Now it's just about making money. It's funny how many people speak of the benefits of moderation in all things, but remotely suggesting moderation in capitalism and you're a demon of some kind. With the fact that companies can ship jobs to countries with cheap employees, ship it back here, paying any taxes they can't avoid and be able to mark it up 500% and make an obscene profit off of something that will fall apart within months shows the level some business have sunk to.

I believe the term is "human capital". If mega-corporations started plugging that factor into their calculus of how to grow, then we'd all be better off. It's all about the "bottom line" which doesn't take into account the human toll of making money. The attitude that the bottom line is all that matters is a very myopic one. If these companies took how their policies affect the community into account, then it would definitely improve the status of that community as well as add long-term stability and growth to that company. Detroit is a perfect example of why this is important.

don't ever assume anything that is very expensive has high quality even if they say it has a multi-point inspection. in one of my jobs they took pride in quality, but didn't push for it. it was numbers only. if you did good work, then you had low numbers, if you had low numbers, they would fire your or threaten to. so you would rush everything, and it showed. we had a high return rate on these things we made. they tended to fire large amounts of people all at once. and it took like 3 months or more to train new people. they had voluntary overtime for a while, then it became mandatory. i had to actually get a doctors note because i couldn't handle the stress of being there. it was hard to be there for 8 hours, let alone 10 or 12. and they would force like 10 hours a day for 5 days, another 8-10 on saturday and even forced people on sundays. for months they did this. people were delirious.

we had to make very small things and it takes a lot of concentration and skill. during this time we had sent so many mistakes out that we lost huge contracts. someone even died. they just keeled over and because no one knew what to do on how to save her, she was oxygen deprived for like 5 min. she died later. then they wised up and eased up on things and got training and equipment.


in another job, i replaced someone who had bone cancer and later died. everyone in that company had a serious ailment of some kind. one guy was pressure testing cylinders (like for propane). he we alone, it popped, hit him in the head, blew out the light, it was black in there. when he woke up he thought he went blind. it was so unsafe in that plant, right now it's being cleaned up for toxins. luckily i was there for only a few months, but that place should be torn down. right next door people had cancer there as well, due to x-raying parts wrong.

i worked in a greenhouse where a cat got stuck behind the wall. it was a large greenhouse where the buildings were tight against each other. with no way to get it out, it meowed, died, stunk and is probably still there. the whole place had that same vibe to it - just dirty and gross.


---Mike Savad

@Lance

I think what's going to wind up helping out the communities are the small and medium sized businesses.

I have to ask these questions, though I doubt anyone will answer...

Which "evil corporation" built the computer you are typing on? Which "evil corporation" generates the power you use to run it? Which "evil corporation" processed and packaged the food in your fridge and pantry? Which "evil corporation" made the car in your driveway and the gas in the car? I could go on...

Life for humans on earth has never been easier than it is right now, especially in the western world. I am VERY grateful for this. I enjoy these things that evil corporations create. Obviously I am not alone. They don't buy the crap they build, they sell it to you and me.

Yes, things go on "behind the scenes". I can't think of an industry that would be immune to this. What goes on behind the scenes at the place that makes the paper your prints are on or the company that makes the paint you use? Sometimes these behind the scenes things are done on purpose because they don't care or they are trying to save a few bucks to maximize profits. Sometimes it is before we learn how dangerous a chemical is. Sometimes there is no viable option for another way.

So we sit on our comfy couch eating cheese puffs complaining about what the evil corporations are doing. I guess it is easier that way.

It is easier to blame them than it is to blame our own actions. To hide behind concern while we consume and consume and consume the garbage they feed us.

If I am anything I am honest about this. I admit and acknowledge my part. But I also admit the alternatives are harder and I don't want to do it that way. Funeral homes sell people things they don't need and use chemicals to embalm a body for no reason. What are the alternatives? Do you want to dig a hole for grandpa yourself in the backyard? Humans are the only animal that buries its dead. Do you want us to just lay where we fall? In the end, our bodies are disposed of in a social acceptable way.

There is an old saying about seeing how sausage is made. I could watch sausage being made and still eat it. I could kill the pig myself if I had to. I will not point my finger at Jimmy Dean's and complain about how they are mean to those poor pigs. I eat the sausage they make, I like it and I am grateful they do it for me so I don't have to do it myself. We have one of the safest food supplies in the history of the world. That is a fact.

Like I said, ask anyone in the food industry and they will tell you that you don't want to know what goes on behind the scenes. But most people go out to eat and you know what? The vast majority don't get sick! If you look at how much food we food we consume in this country every day and compare that with how many people get a food borne illness the numbers are quite impressive. So we ignore what might be going on in that kitchen so we can eat.

Why do corporations out source jobs? It is easy to blame it on the greedy corporations trying to save money so they can line their own pockets. But again, the consumer plays a large role in that. Why is Wal-Mart the huge corporation it is with stores spread across this country like zits on a greasy teens face? Is it because people like the atmosphere and the sophisticated conversation down at the local Wal-Mart? No, it is because we have been drawn to everyday low prices like moths to a flame. But again, it is easier to point the finger at the corporation than admit our part.

If I sound upset I guess I am. I grow tired of the whining and complaining and the ungrateful people, especially in this country. We got it made. How easy it is to forget this. We are spoiled children. Why am I the only one that can seem to admit they are grateful for the way of life I have? Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen to much praise from others.

@John

I will try not to tread on you when I say I think you made your point when you proudly stated "Buyer beware!" I think that any potential customer you may have will be glad that you gave them the warning before they buy one of your pieces. All that you have stated AGAIN are rationalizations for shady, back-handed, sociopathic, sleazy business practices. Like I said before, these are nothing more than justifications for greed and selfish behavior. Corporations could act more responsibly if they wanted to but they simply don't care. There are, of course, exceptions to any rule but that is not what this thread is about. I would also appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about how I live my life. There are a lot of people struggling for survival in this country. Just because you are comfortably eating pigs and cheese puffs doesn't mean everyone is. Do me a favor. If your going to write a book on my thread, speak for yourself.

I think that any potential customer you may have will be glad that you gave them the warning before they buy one of your pieces

Well, I don't know what goes on "behind the scenes at FAA...do you? Maybe they use puppy blood for red ink?

" Corporations could act more responsibly if they wanted to but they simply don't care."

Corporations is a blanket term, it means nothing. There are bad ones and good ones. Does it make you feel better to lump them all together? You say there are exceptions but don't mention any of those. You like to concentrate on the negative. When you say "exception" are you implying the majority of corporations are bad?

" I would also appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about how I live my life. There are a lot of people struggling for survival in this country."

Well, you are using a computer (a luxury in some countries) that, I assume, was made by an evil corporation. Care to tell us the brand? Does the maker of your computer have any dirty little secrets?

@John

Yes I am using a computer and it is made by a corporation that probably does have secrets. I would have to be a naked Luddite or very, very wealthy to avoid this. The point is that education and awareness helps to make the secrets less dirty and the corporations (meaning publicly traded companies) a little more responsible and maybe a little less evil. That is really the only point to the Reddit thread and this one.

Positive affirmations about corporations sounds like a great thread for you to start.

"Yes I am using a computer and it is made by a corporation that probably does have secrets. I would have to be a naked Luddite or very, very wealthy to avoid this"

I don't think you could buy or even build a computer without parts made by an evil corporation. But you could just give up the computer.

"Positive affirmations about corporations sounds like a great thread for you to start."

Why? I am doing it here!

Actually Lance I was (and still am) debating trying to put together a photography book that shows how hard farmers work to feed us. I live in farm country and I SEE what they do. I appreciate what they do. I don't take it for granted.

This is in response to the complaining that is common today about the food industry. It kind of seems, based on the reactions, that nobody here would care about a book like that.

@John

(Sigh) Yes, I should just give up my computer in protest of the evil corporations instead of using it to spread awareness. That makes so much sense.

I think you should write Willie Nelson and John (The Cougar) Mellencamp and see if they'll fund your book.. OR you could do it through http://www.kickstarter.com/

Before you do so, maybe you should read this. http://nelsonfarm.net/ or this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/12/gmo-wheat-lawsuit-idaho_n_3430961.html or this http://www.alternet.org/food/monsantos-rural-police-state

"(Sigh) Yes, I should just give up my computer in protest of the evil corporations instead of using it to spread awareness. That makes so much sense. "

Whatever helps you sleep at night!

Yeah, yeah the evil Monsanto. I don't even have to read your links, I have read plenty of complaints about them. But none of the complainers can ever tell me how to feed the ever-growing population without such research. Tip: organic farming ain't going to do it.

@John

Um. So you're are for the poor hard working farmers EXEPT when they are being sued by Monsanto for saving patented, genetically engineered seeds instead of buying a whole new crop's worth every year?

Hmmm..

If they own the patent, they own the patent. I know that sounds bad, just like medicine being patented. But those are how companies make money and money is what keeps companies going and looking for new ways to make money. What company will spend millions or billions developing a product than give it away? One that won't be in business long.

Profit seems to be a dirty word around here (ironic when you think of how many people here have prices on their work) but profit drives innovation. Money is one hell of a motivator and the reason we have so much stuff today.

@John

I'm all for making money. Companies like that make obscene gobs of it. At a certain point, once the profit margin is so high, it becomes more destructive than anything. All I've read from you AGAIN is oversimplified justifications for greedy, sociopathic behavior. "I know that sounds bad.." That's because it is! Seriously, if you must have the last word, state something without having to qualify it. Own it.

@Lance

LOL Get used to it. John LOVES to make assumptions about people and to condemn us all if we should speak out about educating each other on unethical business practices. We should all just shut-up and not question anything. You don't need to know what's in your food, just be grateful you have it. He complains about people when they make uninformed decisions yet also complains when you ask for more information to make an informed decision. Oh and you missed one on Monsanto: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/11/monsanto-protection-act-extension_n_3908249.html

He says all we need is food, shelter and water. Which is true. But is neglecting how people get it today. We need to have money to buy these things, which means we need a job, which means we need a way to get there, which means a car or public transport. But look out, you'll be condemned because you should be building your own house and growing your own food, which means scratch the job because you won't have time for anything else. And you should be walking wherever you need to go.

He thinks we're all against profit when what we are against is making obscene profits on products that break five seconds after you buy them. He believes we all shop at Wal-Mart because we're too cheap to shop elsewhere, which is true in some of the cases but the majority of shoppers at Wal-Mart are likely those who can't afford anything better. But they shouldn't expect a decent product for their hard earned money.

"Money is one hell of a motivator and the reason we have so much stuff today." Yes, and the wealthy used to pay a much higher income tax and were, as a result, reinvesting more in their companies. Now they can just send their pre-tax dollars to another country to avoid paying any taxes on them. Such a benefit to this country.

@Rosanne

It's all good. I'm sure that along with my original post, John and I have probably provided several people with a decent amount of entertainment on this fine Friday the 13th evening. ^_^

Oh and this..

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38691586

"I'm all for making money. Companies like that make obscene gobs of it."

That does seem to be a common thread that the anti-corporation crowd shares. Vague terms like "obscene" gobs and obscene profits. But if you ask them how much is TOO much they seem to be puzzled. Duh, OBSCENE amounts of money.

Tell me why outside forces should determine how much a company should be able to make. I doubt anyone here would like to be told how much they can make on their art. If someone offered you a million for one of your works how would you feel if some random person said "that's too much, that's obscene".

The fact is nobody is FORCED to buy anything. You CAN go without or go with less or search out a company that you think doesn't make obscene amounts of money. But do you do that? I have noticed that nobody bothered to tell me who makes the things I asked about earlier. I am not surprised. Answering that question may make one look a bit hypocritical. I image many, if not all, of those things are made by companies that make obscene amounts of money. Buying their products contributed to that obscene amount of money. Corporations don't usually make this obscene sums from a single purchase. Often they make obscene amounts from millions of small purchases. You don't sell millions of products by offering a product nobody wants. You are contributing to the problem you are complaining about.

Like it or not, that is the bottom line truth. Sure you can make post on discussion boards hoping people will "wake up" but you have to understand the people you are telling to wake up are also the ones contributing to the problem. People LIKE modern conveniences (Lance and Roseann are using computers right) and you had better have a viable alternative if you want to change minds.


Remember the outcry when people found out dolphins were being caught in tuna nets? There was a huge outcry about that. So much so that the large tuna companies started printing "dolphin safe tuna" on the cans and people bought those cans. I don't know if they still put that on cans because people have a short attention span when it comes to their "causes". But people still bought tuna. Nobody cared about the tuna getting caught in the nets, only the cute little dolphins.

That is the problem I have with most of this. There is no structure to most causes.

"We have to work to make money to buy food."
But the companies that employ us make too much money and they do terrible things behind the scenes.

"The food producers are using gmo's and are destroying the environment"
We will soon have to feed 8 billion people and we either clear forest or grow more food per acre..

"Funeral homes take advantage of people and sell people things they don't need"
We don't want to dig the holes ourselves or let people lay where they fall.


It goes on and on and on and on. Complaining is easy. Anyone with a forum (and in today's world anyone with access to an internet connection has a forum it seems) can complain about what is WRONG. Very few, if any, offer any REAL solutions. Very few, if any, seem willing to make personal sacrifices for what they say is right. So they just complain and complain and complain. They sound like spoiled children that don't appreciate what they have. I don't think they will EVER be happy.

John, you seem to just have a problem with anything that disagrees with your very narrow view of the world. You also seem to have a problem recognizing when you've been defeated and you also seem to have a problem with letting things go - to the point where you come up with silly, overly broad rationalizations for your absurd stance.

Just because you wrote another tome to say the exact same thing you said in several of your other comments doesn't make what you said correct.

Also, I'm not necessarily anti-corporation. I am anti-abuse-of-power. Obscene profits means a profit margin that is so high that the human toll that it took to make it does not justify it.

Actually, John, a lot of people I know DO make sacrifices.

Obviously we cannot all be little perfection houses but some do their best with what they have to work with

That is not the issue

The issue is the people who abuse that power. That not only make a decent profit, which, of course they should, but who do it at the expense of people in the worse time of their lives.

Profit is not a dirty word. Exploitation is.

Using people who are already poor, low, uneducated etc. Who sell things not necessary to people who have lost people, Who use countries where people are starving and pay them under a low wage, JUST for that profit.

The funereal services have people at their very lowest. They abuse that power... they Exploit for that profit.

THAT is when I take offence.

No problems with profit margins at all and many companies deserve it. Exploiting people for that profit I do have issue with.

Now, you can argue their corner as much as you like but I will ignore it as I have my opinion and it will not be swayed on this because it is something I believe as adamantly as you seem to believe yours :)

How did we go from following a link to thread full of whistle-blowing, to this debate it became? First off, ANYONE could write and post whatever they want on a forum like Reddit. Just because they call it whistle-blowing, does not make any of it true. A disgruntled employee could register on that site and make comments just to take revenge.

Lance, to base your arguments in this thread from a site like that, is nuts.

--------------------------------------------------

I would also appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about how I live my life.

I had to re-read John's post, but I did not see your name anywhere in it?

Do me a favor. If your going to write a book on my thread, speak for yourself.

That is just funny.

--------------------------------------------------

I actually don't normally agree with John, but in the case of this thread I do. Lance you accuse John of having a problem with anyone who does not agree with his narrow view of the world, yet have your re-read your rants on this thread? I would say you have the identical problem. In fact, most of us do.

It is interesting to me that both Lance and Roseann end up resorting to personal attacks instead of sticking to the debate. Why is that?

I am actually surprised that this post Posted by: Roseann Caputo on 09/13/2013 - 11:56 PM did not get reprimanded, as it is nothing but one big bash on a fellow member of FAA.

Yes Monsanto owns the seeds that they spread from their trucks passing farms then sueing the farms because Monsanto seeds took root in their soil.


http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-12-2013/monsanto---seed-patent-laws?xrs=share_copy


Granted this is on Jon Stewart but that doesn't make it any less true sorry guess can't embed link maybe the page will show

David, can you provide a reference to proof that this is the case?

Or did you, let me guess...... read it on the "internet"?

Tiny see the video link granted it's the Jon Stewart show but he is generally more factual than main stream or cable news outlets.

John, you seem to just have a problem with anything that disagrees with your very narrow view of the world. You also seem to have a problem recognizing when you've been defeated and you also seem to have a problem with letting things go - to the point where you come up with silly, overly broad rationalizations for your absurd stance.

Just because you wrote another tome to say the exact same thing you said in several of your other comments doesn't make what you said correct.

Also, I'm not necessarily anti-corporation. I am anti-abuse-of-power. Obscene profits means a profit margin that is so high that the human toll that it took to make it does not justify it.

Absolutely correct, Lance. John constantly does that. Again, you're not supposed to question it or it's complaining. And it's not just obscene profits, but it's the quality. I don't mind someone making obscene amounts of money, as long as the product they are putting out is worth the money that's being paid for it.

Actually, John, a lot of people I know DO make sacrifices.

Obviously we cannot all be little perfection houses but some do their best with what they have to work with

That is not the issue

The issue is the people who abuse that power. That not only make a decent profit, which, of course they should, but who do it at the expense of people in the worse time of their lives.

Profit is not a dirty word. Exploitation is.

Using people who are already poor, low, uneducated etc. Who sell things not necessary to people who have lost people, Who use countries where people are starving and pay them under a low wage, JUST for that profit.

The funereal services have people at their very lowest. They abuse that power... they Exploit for that profit.

THAT is when I take offence.

No problems with profit margins at all and many companies deserve it. Exploiting people for that profit I do have issue with.

Now, you can argue their corner as much as you like but I will ignore it as I have my opinion and it will not be swayed on this because it is something I believe as adamantly as you seem to believe yours :)

Very well said. And quite sensible too.

I am actually surprised that this post Posted by: Roseann Caputo on 09/13/2013 - 11:56 PM did not get reprimanded, as it is nothing but one big bash on a fellow member of FAA.

ROFLMAO! You believe that it's bashing?

http://www.iowafarmertoday.com/news/crop/groups-appealing-court-decision-favoring-monsanto-on-seed-patents/article_bce7cd64-1c87-11e3-9dae-001a4bcf887a.html

Yet again, no solutions, just complaining.

How is it a narrow view of the world when I ask for actual SOLUTIONS to problems? Simply complaining about perceived problems with no solutions is a narrow view of the world. At least I had the "courage" to ADMIT I enjoy the benefits of the society we live in. I ADMIT I freely buy products. I can watch sausage being made. I see the world as it is, not some Utopian dream world that isn't going to happen. I see the same problems everyone else does but understand that there is not a lot that can be done if we wish to maintain our lifestyle.

You know forming little groups to complain is not a SOLUTION? One person or 1,000 complaining with no real solution is not a solution. You all remind me of the 99% group that was very loud and vocal, yet somehow never actually SAID anything of any significance.

As far as funeral homes yes, it is a weasel thing to do to sell people things they do not need in a time of vulnerability. But you know if people weren't so afraid to talk about death and dying and what they want done to their bodies when they die it would be a hell of a lot harder for shady funeral homes to take advantage of people. See...THAT is a solution to the problem.

That is the best you can come up with, John?

I believe I just said that many people DO make the changes necessary to stop this. Perhaps you were not reading my response.... All that wasted typing :(

Let's try again........I totally agree with you on what should be done. As I said, I know people who DO make the changes and we do what we can.....

Now..... we also are allowed to tell you why we do not agree with you without being accused of being complainers.. I do not think I accused you of anything in my post?

Debating by attacking the other side is not a good way to debate. and now I AM out of here and back to work

Abbie,

Yes there are people that live their lives in a way to stop what they perceive as problems and I applaud them. If someone has a problem with the big corporations and they do not buy things they create then that is the BEST solution as money talks louder than actual talk!

But it seems people like that are actually pretty rare. It would be a much harder life without buying from corporations. For example I don't think it would be possible to buy a computer or even build a computer without using parts created by a large corporation.

Don't you think it is a bit "ironic" to complain about corporations making "obscene" profits using a computer likely created by Steve Jobs or Bill Gates?

Isn't that like filling up your car at the local gas station so you can drive to the protest against the big oil companies?

To me a complainer is someone that protest or complains about the way something is without actually doing anything about it or having any solutions to fix it.

Example: If you don't like how Wal-Mart treats their employees and all you do about is go on the internet and tell people it's not "right" then you better not SHOP at Wal-Mart because you would be nothing more than a complainer in my book. Like I said, complaining is easy.

@Tiny

Actually, I don't have a problem with people having a different point of view than my own. All I did was explain to John why his argument is so ridiculous. (Because he is defending the indefensible). I do, however, have a problem when the viewpoint is horrendous. I mean, there is a point when your value system is so utterly out of line that it needs to be quashed.

When I told John not to make assumptions about how I live my life, I was referring to his (once again) broad generalization about Americans and how we live our lives.

My arguments aren't based on the Reddit thread. They are based on every fact and statistic that I've every read or seen about the subject. The Reddit thread does confirm a lot of this but my arguments aren't based on that alone.

There was no argument until John chimed in and started defending the poor, defenseless corporations that were being beat up on by us mean ole' creative-types - which, I might add, we weren't really doing. He was actually upset about the Reddit thread.

Some of us HAVE stopped shopping at Wal-Mart. What about the people who don't make enough money to shop anywhere else? Do they have a right to complain when something breaks a month after buying it? I mean the average person would complain if something broke a month after buying it.

I haven't gone to a BP station to get gas since the oil spill. It's a small little boycott which BP doesn't feel at all but it gives me piece of mind. I also stopped going to Exxon after the Valdez spill. I can literally count on one hand the number of times I've gone to an Exxon station in the past 22 years and in all of those cases, it was an emergency situation. I haven't eaten at a McDonalds in 2 years and that was only because my girlfriend wanted to go. When I told her how much wood pulp was used to make her chicken biscuit, she stopped going as well.

I was referring to his (once again) broad generalization about Americans and how we live our lives.

It's not just America Lance. I live in Canada and I see the same attitude John is describing, here as well.

Maybe you are different than the majority, but the majority are to blame for what the west has become, not the corporations. If the majority did not have to have everything, lots of THINGS, most of the major corporations would not be in business. No, everyone needs the fancy car, the boat, the big screen tv in every room in the house and the latest cell phone every darn year. Gadgets for this and things for that. Maybe you are different Lance, but that makes you the MINORITY.

Do you know what it takes to make all those THINGS, the majority buy up and go into more debt for? Oil, Electricity, Gas...... and yes..... CHEAP LABOR. The next time the majority want to complain about human rights with big corporations, take a moment to think about it when going to buy the latest iPhone.

Roseann talks about people that complain about the THING that breaks a month after buying it from Walmart. Maybe the question should be, did they really need the THING in the first place!

The majority blame the banks for the economy, yet look at the American and Canadian household debt stats!! The majority have put themselves so far in debt, in order to keep up with the neighbors and HAVE everything these major corporations can offer, that they will never dig out of it. Then what happens when they realize what THEY have done to THEMSELVES. Take responsibility? NO WAY! They find someone else to blame. Hey it must be the corporations fault! They sold it to us!!

No one wants to take responsibility for themselves anymore. And we are passing that mentality on to our kids as well. I see it every day.

The corporations have their own issues and maybe some day they will be held accountable for their part, but it really chaps my ^%$ when I hear the majority blame the corporations for their plight, when it is the majority's own GREED that got them where they are in the first place.


EDIT - Of course if the majority can't blame the corporations for their plight, they will start blaming the media for advertising the THINGS to them.

" What about the people who don't make enough money to shop anywhere else? Do they have a right to complain when something breaks a month after buying it? I mean the average person would complain if something broke a month after buying it"

There is a reason people say "you get what you pay for". That usually holds true. Sure expensive stuff sometimes breaks after a month and sometimes cheap stuff last for years. But if you buy a cheap knock-off from China you really shouldn't be shocked that your $10.00 designer handbag's strap fell off after a month. You really have no reason to complain.

@Tiny

I have to actually agree with you to a certain extent on that. We do buy into their b.s. way too much. That being said, I'm not sure if you can appreciate how much we as Americans are bombarded with advertising at every turn. We are systematically inundated with sexual imagery, fear and guilt / shame to sell us everything. We are constantly being told how inadequate we are because we don't have this product or that. If we are able to keep a clear perspective on anything, it's a feat.

There is a reason people say "you get what you pay for". That usually holds true. Sure expensive stuff sometimes breaks after a month and sometimes cheap stuff last for years. But if you buy a cheap knock-off from China you really shouldn't be shocked that your $10.00 designer handbag's strap fell off after a month. You really have no reason to complain.

So what you're saying is if you can't afford to buy better, too bad?

Roseann talks about people that complain about the THING that breaks a month after buying it from Walmart. Maybe the question should be, did they really need the THING in the first place!

For one person it was a bread maker. She was hoping to cut costs by making her own.

The majority blame the banks for the economy, yet look at the American and Canadian household debt stats!! The majority have put themselves so far in debt, in order to keep up with the neighbors and HAVE everything these major corporations can offer, that they will never dig out of it. Then what happens when they realize what THEY have done to THEMSELVES. Take responsibility? NO WAY! They find someone else to blame. Hey it must be the corporations fault! They sold it to us!!

I think that "Keeping up with the Jones" went out in the seventies. Now it's "can I afford to send my kids to a decent college?"

So you're saying that banks have no responsibility at all for the current economy in this country?

@Tiny

Yes I do blame the minority that run everything for the problems of society. They have enough money and power to stack the odds to a point that it basically rapes the poor and middle class in this country. I can give you graphs, charts, facts and figures to back this up but I'm willing to bet that that wouldn't sway you in the slightest.

@Tiny

Why is this company still in business?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

"I haven't gone to a BP station to get gas since the oil spill. It's a small little boycott which BP doesn't feel at all but it gives me piece of mind"

That is a start Lance. But you do know that ALL oil companies have a negative impact on the planet.

I understand that it probably makes you feel better (like the dolphin safe tuna) but in the big picture it isn't enough. You say my argument is ridiculous and I am defending the indefensible when you can't see (or WON'T see) the facts that are in front of your face. Oil is bad for the Earth. Drilling for it, refining it, burning it. Avoiding one or two gas stations doesn't absolve you from YOUR impact on the planet even though you REALLY want to act like it does.

That is why I wouldn't ban BP because I know this. I ADMIT it. I damage the planet with my actions and I admit it. I ADMIT I like the convenience of driving my car. I don't pretend I "need" to or "have to so I can eat" I just admit it, I LIKE driving more than walking. Because if you cut through all the touchy-feely BS on subjects like oil people drive because they LIKE to. Defend it any way you like but you use oil you can't complain about "big oil".

I also support big, evil heartless corporations. I enjoy a lot of the products they make. I will do what nobody else seems willing to do. I am on an hp computer, Midwest energy provides my electricity and propane, I have food from Kraft, Hershey, Heinz, and Jimmy Dean's. I drive a Ford and frequent the Marathon station near my house. My TV is a Samsung, I own a Playstation 3 and an iPhone 4s.

I enjoy all of these things. In their own way they make my life easier (especially the food, electricity and propane). Do these companies have dirty secrets? I am going to assume they ALL do. Oh well. I weight their benefits to the cost and have decided the benefits are greater. If I didn't feel that way I would give them up, even if it was really, really hard to do so.

Like I said, I can watch the sausage being made. I am not pretending it is made by happy little elves in a magic workshop deep in the forest where the animals play with each other all day long in perfect harmony.

"I have to actually agree with you to a certain extent on that. We do buy into their b.s. way too much. That being said, I'm not sure if you can appreciate how much we as Americans are bombarded with advertising at every turn. We are systematically inundated with sexual imagery, fear and guilt / shame to sell us everything. We are constantly being told how inadequate we are because we don't have this product or that. If we are able to keep a clear perspective on anything, it's a feat."

Lance that sounds like a cop-out that attempts to remove all personal responsibility. Boo-hoo we can't HELP it. They put pretty, shiny objects on our screen and I HAVE to buy them. If people do this stuff because they are that weak and feeble then I say to hell with them, they SHOULD be taken advantage of.

Thing is the VAST majority of people are not that helpless, even if they want to pretend they are.

"So what you're saying is if you can't afford to buy better, too bad?"

Here's an idea Roseann, why not SAVE for it?

"For one person it was a bread maker. She was hoping to cut costs by making her own."

The last time I looked (and it's been a long time) a good bread maker is expensive and a loaf of bread is pretty cheap.

Also, didn't people bake bread for thousands of years before the invention of modern bread makers? Couldn't she just buy a bread pan?

understand that it probably makes you feel better (like the dolphin safe tuna) but in the big picture it isn't enough. You say my argument is ridiculous and I am defending the indefensible when you can't see (or WON'T see) the facts that are in front of your face. Oil is bad for the Earth. Drilling for it, refining it, burning it. Avoiding one or two gas stations doesn't absolve you from YOUR impact on the planet even though you REALLY want to act like it does.

That is why I wouldn't ban BP because I know this. I ADMIT it. I damage the planet with my actions and I admit it. I ADMIT I like the convenience of driving my car. I don't pretend I "need" to or "have to so I can eat" I just admit it, I LIKE driving more than walking. Because if you cut through all the touchy-feely BS on subjects like oil people drive because they LIKE to. Defend it any way you like but you use oil you can't complain about "big oil".

But again, John, you like to say that people don't "need" cars or oil, but you offer no reasonable alternative to how a family can survive in today's world without a car.

I have to actually agree with you to a certain extent on that. We do buy into their b.s. way too much. That being said, I'm not sure if you can appreciate how much we as Americans are bombarded with advertising at every turn. We are systematically inundated with sexual imagery, fear and guilt / shame to sell us everything. We are constantly being told how inadequate we are because we don't have this product or that. If we are able to keep a clear perspective on anything, it's a feat.

I've learned to ignore the marketing. I will appreciate a well-done commercial, but I have no desire to buy the product. I stick to what I need, do my research and buy American made when I can. In some cases it's not available, but you do the best you can when you can.

Here's an idea Roseann, why not SAVE for it?

There are those who do, but I'm referring to people of a very low income. What if it's an article of clothing and it falls apart within a month?

@John

I said it before. Not all corporations are bad. I also said I'm not anti-corporation. I am anti-abuse-of-power. You keep saying repeatedly that you are tired of the complaining but that is exactly what you are doing. Complaining and protest are nothing more than communication. Communication does change things. Yes, it is important that we are aware of what goes on behind the scenes. It is important that we are educated about the realities of our society - especially the uncomfortable ones. There is a reason that slaves weren't allowed to learn how to read.

By your reasoning, we should all just sit around fat, dumb and grateful for all of the hydrogenated vegetable oil, bleached enriched wheat flour and high fructose corn syrup that is being pumped down our throats.

The last time I looked (and it's been a long time) a good bread maker is expensive and a loaf of bread is pretty cheap.

Also, didn't people bake bread for thousands of years before the invention of modern bread makers? Couldn't she just buy a bread pan?

Not all bread makers are expensive. Yes, a loaf of bread is pretty cheap, but if you make an initial investment on the maker and the ingredients, it will save you money in the long run. The bread maker will also save some time for her. It makes the dough and bakes it. Gives her time to do other things around her living space.

What wrong with asking that good parts be used and the maker be well made?

"But again, John, you like to say that people don't "need" cars or oil, but you offer no reasonable alternative to how a family can survive in today's world without a car."


Like I told you before Roseann people survived without cars for thousands and thousands of years. Most people in China don't own a car. You may call that unreasonable but just because something is VERY hard doesn't mean it is unreasonable. It can be done and it has been done.

"There are those who do, but I'm referring to people of a very low income. What if it's an article of clothing and it falls apart within a month?"

First of all low income people can save for stuff, it may take longer but it can be done.

Second, don't places like Goodwill sell brand name clothing cheap?

"I said it before. Not all corporations are bad."

So what did BP do that was bad? Spill oil? Do you think they did that on purpose?

"Complaining and protest are nothing more than communication. Communication does change things"

Sounds to me like this protesting and complaining is more to get OTHER people to change things.

"Yes, it is important that we are aware of what goes on behind the scenes. It is important that we are educated about the realities of our society - especially the uncomfortable ones"

And if someone ignores this information or doesn't care they are unreasonable and ridiculous?

"By your reasoning, we should all just sit around fat, dumb and grateful for all of the hydrogenated vegetable oil, bleached enriched wheat flour and high fructose corn syrup that is being pumped down our throats."

I admit I would rather do that than grow my own damn food! How about you?

"Not all bread makers are expensive."

But it sounds like the cheap ones break in a month. Notice I said a "good" bread maker is expensive.

" it will save you money in the long run. The bread maker will also save some time for her. It makes the dough and bakes it. Gives her time to do other things around her living space."

Yes a bread maker saves time and effort. Doing it the "old" way is hard and takes longer. But the "old" way is cheaper. Buying bread is faster and easier than a bread maker but it cost more in the long run.

There are choices there, plenty of choices. If you can't afford a quality maker than take that option off the table (or at least save until you can but one).


"What wrong with asking that good parts be used and the maker be well made? "

They DO that, it is what you get with the more expensive bread makers. Are you trying to say some company should use the same good parts as the expensive bread makers but sell them at half the price?

Like I told you before Roseann people survived without cars for thousands and thousands of years. Most people in China don't own a car. You may call that unreasonable but just because something is VERY hard doesn't mean it is unreasonable. It can be done and it has been done.

Yes, they did. That was also over 100+ years ago. Most people in China have healthcare, too, so what's your point? HAS been done. Many years ago. Single people living in large cities will use public transportation, walk or bike. But I'm talking about a family, getting their kids to school, getting to their jobs, going to the grocery store. People need food, shelter and water. For food and shelter in this world you need money which you get by obtaining a job. You need to get from your home to you job. In today's world, a car is used. In the early 20th century horses and carriages were still used. In today's world, if you can't get to your job and someone else can they will get the job. You say build your own house and grow your own food. But you still need money for the land. Again, a job is needed. So is a car. Now if you wish to repeat this same nonsense over and over and not admit the truth that in today's world many people do need cars.

First of all low income people can save for stuff, it may take longer but it can be done.

Second, don't places like Goodwill sell brand name clothing cheap?

For things that are unnecessary such as iPods, smartphones, I agree. Save your money for the best product you can get. Yes, Goodwill sells clothing, I'm not sure they all have brand names. What happens if they don't have your size?

BP's earnings: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/apr/30/bp-record-profit-safety-record

BP's safety record: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bps-dismal-safety-record/story?id=10763042

OSHA statistics show BP ran up 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, while Sunoco and Conoco-Phillips each had eight, Citgo had two and Exxon had one comparable citation.

Look at their numbers compared to their competitors. Their record is atrocious. So yes, I think we all have the right speak out against it. And boycott it. And question why are they still in business in this country.

Yes a bread maker saves time and effort. Doing it the "old" way is hard and takes longer. But the "old" way is cheaper. Buying bread is faster and easier than a bread maker but it cost more in the long run.

There are choices there, plenty of choices. If you can't afford a quality maker than take that option off the table (or at least save until you can but one).

And when she buys the quality one and it breaks? I take it she has no right to speak out against that either?

They DO that, it is what you get with the more expensive bread makers. Are you trying to say some company should use the same good parts as the expensive bread makers but sell them at half the price?

Nope. I'm saying they shouldn't be allowed to sell their substandard crap to anyone. At all.

Companies used to care about a quality product. Not any more. Just how much money they can make screwing people over. It's really pathetic.

Roseann,

If someone wanted to give up their car bad enough it could be done. Again, it would be hard but that doesn't mean it could not be done. How would they do it? I don't know. Like I said, I have no desire to give up my car. I also am not complaining about the evil car companies or the oil companies. I appreciate both of them for making my life easier.

"For things that are unnecessary such as iPods, smartphones, I agree. Save your money for the best product you can get. Yes, Goodwill sells clothing, I'm not sure they all have brand names. What happens if they don't have your size? "

You are acting like people wake up one day without any clothes. If they don't have clothes in your size, come back next week or go to another store, I know they are all over here. Goodwill has whatever people donate and people donate brand name, decent clothes.

If someone wanted to give up their car bad enough it could be done. Again, it would be hard but that doesn't mean it could not be done. How would they do it? I don't know. Like I said, I have no desire to give up my car. I also am not complaining about the evil car companies or the oil companies. I appreciate both of them for making my life easier.

So you have nothing to stand on here. Just your word saying it can be done. But no idea how. Again, I think you're being very unrealistic.

You are acting like people wake up one day without any clothes. If they don't have clothes in your size, come back next week or go to another store, I know they are all over here. Goodwill has whatever people donate and people donate brand name, decent clothes.

You act like there's never a time in their life when someone does needs something within a time frame and it's too much to expect to get a decent product for their money.

@John

I love how little empathy you've shown through this entire thread. I love how you've tirelessly defended sociopathic business practices where huge sums of cash are used to sway the masses to act against their own best interests. That's quite a feat. You should be proud. Reading your endless repetition has really stimulated and enlightened me.

As enlightening as all of this has been, it is growing tedious and it is consuming too much of my time. The great thing about opening a thread is that I can close it after I have the last word.

My last word comes from someone much smarter than me.

“Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence.” ― Leonardo da Vinci