Is This True About Search Results ?

Votes (and sales) count in search hierarchy, comments do not. I'm not sure about favorites.

I think it's PART of the algorythm. But it's not the only thing that matters.

Do a search for a keyword you're interested in and check out the top 5 or 10 results. Some will have no votes, no comments, etc.

Sales is the key factor. One sale will boost that item considerably in the rankings, especially if it was way in the back before. Other things help too...but making sales is the best way to improve search rankings.

it will help you a little bit. however joining a club to comment on each others stuff will be counterproductive. i'm willing to bet that the views - probably weigh more if they come from the outside in. but selling things keeps you high up. but it has to be consistent, not a sale here and there.

i decided a while ago that the votes and such only count for a total of what you have. so if you have 1000 pix, but only 20 of those have votes for a total of 20 votes, you won't rank as high as someone with 3 images with a 100 votes each.

now why certain ones are higher than others i don't know. i have stuff up there that i never sold at all, and yet it ranks higher than things that have.


---Mike Savad

Search takes into consideration many different factors when determining the sort order of the images.

It takes into consideration:

1. the relevance of your image keywords
2. the number of times an image has been sold
3. the number of times an image has been favourited
4. the number of times an image has been commented on (by others. Your own comments on your work do NOT count)
5. how long an image has been on the site
6. the number of times an image has been featured in a group
etc...

There are more than 25 different criteria that the search engine evaluates.

Hope this helps

Wow Beth, thank you for the answer. I've never seen a site (POD or otherwise) actually tell people what ANY of the componants of the search algorythm are! Usually the answers are vague at best.

even knowing the answer, it's still pretty vague. it's still a guessing game in the threads.


---Mike Savad

I doubt it that Search takes the relevance of image keywords into consideration for its ranking.

If Search can take the relevance of image keywords into consideration, how come it still shows images with not related keywords on page 1 in Search results (example: a bowl with cherries in search result for apple)?

Obviously "apple" is not an appropriate tag for that one. It is, however, being used as a keyword for that image. So, when one say "relevance"... relevant in what way? relevant to whom? The system cannot look at the picture and say which keywords are not appropriate. By saying "the relevance of your image keywords" it sounds good..but when you think about it...doesn't really tell you much.

Thanks, Jeff, that's exactly what I meant. You said it so much better than I ever could :-)

So in essence everything is worth the effort to move up in the rankings. Sales can only begin by working the other stuff.

the essence is - promote outside the site to get sales, don't rely on the search if you can help it. sales begin when people can find you, and they can only find you if your on the first 10 pages or so. and you won't be there unless you sell.

so.... it means you have to get people to get interested in your stuff from the outside. and anything else may help you get higher than other people who just upload their stuff and leave. like 20% i would say would be the stuff we said above - comments and such. 10-20% are your keywords. the rest is getting them in here. and getting them to your store in particular.


---Mike Savad

Thanks Beth for given an excellent clarification on how the search feature works!!! I am going to pay attention to what you have stated. It brings a ray of hope to those new artists who do not have the means to have multiple blogs or websites that promote their work to others like the established successful artists know about, spend time developing and adding to and can afford. I would imagine they don't even need to participate in groups or contests as they don't need any votes or believe comments help much.

So come on you undiscovered artists,now is the time to get going on FAA and look at and promote each others work!! Best of luck to everyone!!!

i don't use blogs, i right now, only use twitter. i push it on other sites, but mostly there. mostly you want as many eyes to see it as you can. because you don't know who is lurking. they might be reading this right now... yeah i see you, don't look away... anyway, they will look at your stuff from the forum, they might see it in a contest or the group, or where ever. every bit helps.


---Mike Savad

Mike, if you push your work on other sites do you direct them all to go to FAA to make a purchase? do you ever order your artwork for use in selling to galleries or people that you know? Just wondering how it works......

@Mike, I am on Twitter but I don't quite know how to use it. Do I follow people around, I feel like a stalker! "Hey you, pssst I got a painting you might like!"
Seriously I do not know how it works really.

@Sydne - I put a link to a new image, or a link to my artistwebsite. I tweet to all my followers and to certain big names that I follow. I get an almost 15 to 20 immediate hits - lead to sales - I'm waiting. A couple of years ago I was doing well - then it dropped off. Mostly my fault as I devoted time to another site and WORK. Now I don't work - except my art.

i never order my own stuff, i just don't need more stuff around. i'll try to send them to my artist site, but i'm not fussy. i have a website, i have stuff on redbubble with my links to here.

for twitter you find people that may fit your pictures and follow them. they might follow you back. then you add tags that fit your stuff. after a while they build up. if your better with facebook then work on that. make a webpage or a blog. it all depends on what you have time for.


---Mike Savad

VERY interesting.

I had always thought the number of votes was relevant, too.

But it's not on the list.

So I guess votes don't count.

They count Dan.

Beth said; " There are more than 25 different criteria that the search engine evaluates. "

She listed six.

votes count, but i don't think they are a strong pull. i have a feeling it's a part of a formula where one thing works with another. like if you have many votes and over all comments your higher than just people with just votes. this would prevent people from cheating the system. so that's one theory. there are a number of things that help, i don't think he would go out of his way making a system with votes, if it didn't do anything.


---Mike Savad

I wrote an email to Sean a couple months back asking how the search engine worked. For some strange reason, he said he could not reveal the algorithm to me.

Yupp, knowing the system allows you to game the system....

Have no doubt, if I knew, I would.

I'm convinced in the general FAA search, it's SALES!, SALES!,SALES!!

For FAA that makes sense....Works that have a proven record...and works from members that have a proven record.

A Catch22

Now, there are, also, valuable alternate FAA search listings: "Most Comments", "Most Votes" etc....That some members work assiduously to be at the top of.

I would have been extremely surprised if he had given out the "secret formula". Also, if we don't know, then changes can be made without a zillion people complaining...

But people complain anyway.... oh well....

Ya know Roger, the two, sales and comments, tend to go hand in hand even for those of us that do not actively seek comments.

When you get a sale, you tend to get comments on the image that sells, thus my top sellers are at the top of the search either way you sort it.

"...there are a number of things that help, ...making a system with votes, if it didn't do anything."



Over at 500px, the more votes (higher "affection" as they call it) you get, the longer you stay in the forefront of the site where people will see your work. From what I've seen over there, it's pretty much the same items that sell on a consistent basis.

Even SALES!, SALES!,SALES doesn't always push an images forward when it comes to Search results.

Proof : e.g. keyword Chicago:
A few of my Chicago images sold several times and very well before xmas, but they are still glued to the spot where they were right after I uploaded them last September.

Imagine all people are green ... I believe that some people are greener when it comes to Search results, even if they had no sales at all.

Perhaps being "greener" is one of the unmentioned search criteria... ;)

I guess so, Jeff :-) 'Greener' is the secret component of the algorithm for Search and for Today's New Uploads.

Supposably it cost money to advertise the link on FB??

I used google ads to drive traffic here, paid for keyword searches so that my link would be shown on top of the google search. no sales. but for some of you it might be an idea to try it out.

Perhaps the question of why some with sales zoom up the charts and other don't can be found in the "weight" of the sale. I.e., a 24x36 sale of an acrylic or a metal will give a greater boost than an 8x10 print or a greeting card.

This has three good tags , but appears in not one single search for those tags, just as I said about it three years ago....still the same images for the tags are static.........and I don't look anymore so I can keep my health in check.............but...............this sold last week (not a card) ..........just what 'weight' does one have to have to get put into the tag search, if even a recent sale doesn't get it indexed.........the search is dead, long live the Cache.............(am sorry I bothered)..........Big Enough? Will somebody in Search honour my tags, my sale???????????????????

Keyword relevance could include such things as how far down in your list of keywords the one being searched on comes, whether it has sold on that keyword search, how many keywords the image has (if it has five keywords then each one might get a 20% weighting, and if it has 100 it might only be a 1% weighting).

Maybe its one of those things, or some of those things, or none of those things and something else entirely.

And maybe over on Amazon, they sort them in a different way from FAA's sort order.

Well, Paul, you can't know, but I wondered all of that and more for years here and said so, and came up with zilch and lost my health from the disappointment of my (don't know about anybody else) tags NOT being honoured here much, and have been told long ago 'admin' is aware of the indexing problems.......supposedly fixed........so, if they promise sales matter....where's my image, then..????? Sales, comments, votes, fav's.......got 'em all........but............I don't give a rat's behind anymore..........somebody found me somehow........a glitch , lol , and no thanks to search.............and....I'm not on f/b to promote myself and this place; not on twitter; not anywhere........how lucky can a girl be...?


the tags:

Tags: red paintings, red abstract paintings, red rhapsody paintings, wall paintings paintings, art paintings paintings, red canvas prints, red abstract canvas prints, red rhapsody canvas prints, wall paintings canvas prints, art paintings canvas prints ...........etc etc etc

Vivian, this may be good news for you. I only tried this one thing. If you put - red rhapsody - into the FAA search engine, under All it is a fair way down the first page. But if you use the dropdown menu Recently Sold - it is the first image.

Thanks with all my heart, Marg...I truly did despair.....but, FAA is as good as its word, and I am so grateful..........I did tell Beth I'd shut up back a while ago, but then all this talk got me frazzled up again..........it's better when I don't speak about the search and I did have a quiet period away from the subject.........and could have avoided all this if I'd thought to look at Recently Sold..............um......do buyers look at that ? Anyway........time for me to rest and recoup.........and celebrate a great success........thank you for doing the search, Marg...........Cheers.......Vivian

Vivian, I'm glad you're happier now. Also, every time you upload an image, after giving it time to appear in the search engine, just look under - Recently: Added - in the dropdown menu of one of the tags you used to make sure it is there before you look through pages and pages of images under All if it's a popular subject.


Edit: It's the same to see (in the dropdown menu) - Most: Comments - Recently: Commented On - etc



Vivian, I just had a quick look under - red abstract - (10000+ images) and it is on page 3 under Recently Sold!

Thanks yet again, Marg...........much appreciate your efforts.......you've given me peace of mind.....a rare commodity nowadays.....wishing you well, Cheers, V.

Thanks for your suggestions, Dan and Paul, but in the Chicago case it's neither "the weight" of the art itself nor the position of the keyword in the list of keywords.
Trust me ... I tried them all.

I'm sue this goes for other keywords, too, and I hope it will change some day.

Im still frustrated and confused, A local Bank was intrested in a couple my piece and TRIED ......YES Tried to find my work on here by just putting in last name 14 pages under Bennett and not one single piece of my work was on there,Three pages were dedicated to one artist with same last name, I have been on here 5 mos 33,604 views mostly other artist and bot's, I have over 1500 votes,750 plus facebook likes,985 plus tweeted, 600plus google plus,168 comments from other artist,21 plus features in groups ..You get moved up on here by many of the above and mostly sales,but how can your work sale if not being seen....oh yea key words,I use key words, and on some I didnt and there's no difference in who views my work. Just very discouraging in so many way's.

Scott..........surely you emailed them your AW link, or sent your business card with that link?

I think we have to repeat the title in the keywords.

If you have something called "Beautiful Morning" and you use keywords like "sunny day, sunshine... etc" you're not going to find your work when you search for "Beautiful Morning".

Just an opinion.

No I happen to be on phone with Vice Pres, (regarding another matter)He asked me were he could find my work, told him to come to FAA and type in name, He called few day's later and said he couldnt find it, I should have told him to type in full name I guess,It's okay did direct sale with another site doing the work and shipping,I got just as discouraged when I puched in last name only,If three pages of one artist with same lastname came up
plus acouple other without putting in a first name then some thing of mine should have came up were as it would have lead him to my site..I have had others tell me they are having same problem..

Ricardo your probably right cant hurt to try,,

Scott, your name is searchable in the data base but it HAS to be your full name unless you have it in your keywords.

If you search for JC Findley, you get 1400ish results. If you search for just Findley, you get 114 or the ones I have my name listed as a keyword.

I did an exact search (meaning complete name) and couldn't find one of my drawings.
Then I tried to search for the keywords... I knew I had a unique combination "chick" and "confetti". Then I found the drawing.

Ricardo, not just opinion but fact. The FAA search does not find titles, just keywords so you have to repeat the title in the keywords.

I didn't know that.
Thanks.

Hey Thanks JC I'll work on that..

You are the only Scott Bennett BTW.

I suppose that Search could be made far more intuitive, from what you've said. It would help a lot.

Keyword relevancy can be determined by which photos are viewed after a search on that keyword. After a while this helps sort things out. So something like that is probably in place. I know of one other site that used this approach to weed out "spammed" keywords.

Comments by JC Findley seem to help. I got a sale on a photo shortly after getting a comment from JC.

Anything I can do to help.

I know this conversation was started awhile ago, but I stumbled upon it and since I am new to this site I thought i'd ask a question pertaining to keywords.

I am wondering the best way to make the tags/key words work best for me. For example - Vivian Anderson noted the following:

"Red paintings, red abstract paintings, red rhapsody paintings"

As some of her tags. I thought that maybe if the words were separated by a comma then instead of an exact phrase needing to be searched for then the search engine could take variations instead.

Is that the way things work here or is it better to list exact phrases?

Thanks in advance!

Denise Boineau

If people search a phrase then I believe that you will be higher in the search if you have the whole phrase as on tag. I think this was mentioned somewhere in a thread. So do both as a phrase and individually.

the search is basic, it doesn't like phrases, however if you give it one it will prefer that over single words.

car,red

red car

if someone typed in red car - the bottom one would be first. you don't have to add paintings because the system does that. putting both versions in is a good idea, anything that might get people to see your stuff is a good idea. as long as it's not spam. also add plurals, and leave out spaces because they count.

---Mike Savad

QUOTE: "Comments by JC Findley seem to help. I got a sale on a photo shortly after getting a comment from JC.""

Based on the message above it sounds like the only foolproof method is for JC to comment on your image.

JC - Can you go comment on all my photos this evening?

Nice to finally figure out the secret....

Thanks all for your input. It does help to get advice from those with experience and not have to recreate the wheel!! Oh and hopefully it will be my pleasure to be introduced to JC Findley! It's nice to have friends around here!

And I must say I am quite impressed with all of your work - Dave, Mike and Bradford! I feel honored to be in your company here.

Well yes, that and sales. How do you think work ought to be ranked besides sales, views, favorites, and comments?

It appears to me that when one is engaged in the process - the opportunities allow one to become ranked higher.

I wish general public could vote on images, just can't imagine someone creating account to vote on image. one vote from the same ip is the best policy tho

the public buys the images, that should be enough. voting doesn't help that much though. and i think it's lumped together with other factors just to prevent the voting clubs from being effective. like i'm betting you need outside sources of people coming in, and not just the internal stuff.


---Mike Savad

I still like the idea, maybe there are people like me who just likes to vote on images not necessarily commenting.

I'm just experimenting, but I completely reset my visits the other day on an image that had 260 visits and 30 votes but was still on page 10. I reset the visits to zero and now it is higher up. Maybe there is some math involved in the formula. How many votes to visits? I've only done it to one image, but you could try experimenting with things to move up. Also, I find keywords work better with a , between each word. Search never liked my phrases.

I sponsored search results to my blog to get one of my pix to show up on the third row. When I am not logged in and I type the keyword, my pic doesn't show up in the search results. Yet, when I am logged in and search, it is right there on the front page. What's up with that? Is it worth it to sponsor search results?

when your logged in, it just shows that you sponsored it. however if it's a common word and 900 other people did the same thing, you have to share. if you refresh the page you'll see it rotates.

sponsoring gives you a chance at being on the front page for given words, but they still have to be unique. like new york is probably taken. bronx or some suburb, there will probably be space in there so the rotation is smaller. anything to get you in front of the eyes of a buyer is always a good thing.


---Mike Savad

FAA tells us some the factors (just 6 out of 25, apparently) that supposedly affect search rank, but the relative weightings of those factors, that information doesn't have much value.

I suspect that past sales is by far the biggest factor. Whether it's worthwhile to work on any of the others (voting etc.) we have no way of knowing, and the formula could be changed it any time, so we'd be proceeding entirely on faith.

How for example could 'relevance of keywords' possibly be measured, except by tracking actual sales?

If 'votes' actually mean anything, that's unfortunate because hardly anyone ever votes, because they don't notice the button and/or don't understand what they're 'voting' on. If the button said 'Like", then people would know what it means and maybe use it.

'relevance of keywords'

Actually, it has to do with exactly what is searched for. For instance, a search for green barn an image with ,green barn, would be more relevant than an image with ,green,barn, and conversely, an image with ,green barn, would show in a search for green or barn but not be as relevant as on with ,green,barn,

Edit, this is from JC the artist's research NOT official FAA insider info.

I was curious, so I did an experiment:

I signed out and searched for a word that I have a lot of images under. There were over 1,300 images that came up for that word.

7/36 on the front page were mine (4 'sponsored', and 3 others...2 had a lot of votes/comments/etc... 1 had 0 votes and only 1 comment, but I had sold as a card)

On the next 2 pages were 12 more of mine.

Just thought it was interesting!

JC - myabe I'm not geeing it - but the site code, not being a 22nd century AI, has no idea of what's actually in a photo. So how could we possibly be ranked on keyword relevance, unless someone at FAA actually looked at every photo and scored the keywords? Obviously that is not happening. So if 'keyword relevance' has effect on search placement - which I doubt - it could only be the result of people searching for a given keyword, finding your photo, and BUYING it.

Jim, your statement may well be true but I cannot test that as an artist.

When I say keyword relevance I am basically talking about search word to key word relevance.

There are many ways to search for a subject but how well your keywording, or more specifically key phrases, match what is searched is a type of keyword relevance.

Again, say someone is looking for a green barn. You have a red barn with green plants. You have both "red barn" and "green plants" in your keywords. That image will come up in a search for green barn because both green and barn are keywords. It will not come up as soon as an image with "green barn" as a single keyword phrase nor will it come up as soon as an image tagged with green and barn as individual tags. (All other things being equal btw)

Jim...I think relevance of keyword refers to what someone searches for relevant to the list of tag words...jc's example of green barn is a good one. Another would be if you and I have a photo of a dog with the exact same sales votes,fave etc but dog was my first tag, and dog was your second, my pict would show up higher in the search because it is a more relevant tag in comparison to the search. This piece has nothing to do with the actual image...just the relevance of hat is searched for vs the list of tags we put in. Hope this makes sense.

Are there other ways to get votes besides entering in contests? Something posted in a discussion made me wonder about this.

As to looking at all images...even without looking at an image, over time and many many clicks, the type of relevancy you speak of could be found (or at least guessed at).

Ex. Our dog picture again...mine shows above yours because of words (as per my example above)...but yours gets clicked on 20 out of 100 times it shows on a viewed page...but mine never gets a click because the dog is tiny and in the background and so the searchers don't ever look at it. Over time the algorithms could figure out based on keywords vs. click throughs that your image is relevant to dog and mine really isn't.

This type of intuition was part of googles genius a long time back...wether this is coded here...I don't know...no way we can test it. On the other hand...the word version is pretty easy to test (and I have).

Matt

Jim, that is so true about relevance, which is why my first tag chosen is hopefully right,but I find that my first tag does not get me into that tag/search page,and that the fourth,or even 'hidden' tag, is chosen instead by FAA system....so frustrating.Obviously, other criteria are at work,as we know.
I am though so happy that the tags/images are indexed so quickly, nowadays.