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Does Painting Make You Psychotic?

Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 3:36 PM

Do you ever work so much painting that you begin to feel as if you have entered an alternate reality .. The pain your body is in some how fueling this out of body experience to the point of sensing if one is not careful one can tumble down into a psychotic Dali like seizure...????
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Oldest Reply

Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/10/2012 - 3:40 PM

i think you should switch to water based paints.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 3:45 PM

That would be easy but I'm not sure it would alleviate the phenomenon ....... damn I need a coffee..............


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/10/2012 - 3:50 PM

when i tossed the nail polish around, it was a bit of a high, not sure how people stand it to get high off the stuff. but overall i don't feel much emotion for anything i do. i'm more formula based, even if it's babies eating babies, i don't feel much for that stuff.

though i also don't drink anything with caffeine in it, so that might be it as well.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: I F A Shores on 12/10/2012 - 3:51 PM

No but, coz I work in a small room, it does make me high, sorta


Posted by: Kylani Arrington on 12/10/2012 - 3:51 PM

That only happens to me when I've been working on a piece for too long... slumped over the canvas with paint all over my hands and arms or my face. If it's been over two hours, I need to stop. It becomes too emotional and that's what makes me crazy.

Although some might argue that it's the paint itself...


Posted by: Dazzle Zazz on 12/10/2012 - 3:57 PM

I can relate...after a few hours crouched behind my camera, in the dark, staring into flashing disco lights, my hand cramped into 'the claw' and my brain stimulated by loud music (triggers some of the lights) and dizzying flashing, not to mention some of my new lights interfere with the camera view screen and create bands of moving light in colors across the view screen (doesn't show up in the photos) but makes it very difficult to even see what you are taking a photo of....when I come upstairs to normal light, and a grey colorless day, it seems strangely like I have been in some sort of alternate reality. And reality seems a bit dull in comparison.

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Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 3:57 PM

do you think being in touch with your emotion facilitates these kind of experiences? I have to be working for a long time also under a dead line either self imposed or in reality to really get there..
Dazzle flashing lights can trigger seizures


Posted by: I F A Shores on 12/10/2012 - 4:03 PM

And reality can seem a bit dull in comparison



Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/10/2012 - 4:09 PM

if i focus too hard and i just want to get it done i'll get a sort of tunnel vision and all peripheral vision darkens and all i see is the work. but i really have to be in the zone for that to happen, and i try not to let it happen because i find creativity leaves a bit.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/10/2012 - 4:13 PM

Rabbit holes are good. (sometimes) I tend to like them.


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 4:14 PM

Mike I've heard you say before that you were not in touch with emotion when working... yet your work has such a strong sentimental draw in a way or a heavy object orientation... Do you not feel a connection to the images you produce?


Posted by: Dazzle Zazz on 12/10/2012 - 4:17 PM

Robert, only if you are prone to having them, which, after having stared at flashing lights as much as I have, I have ascertained that I am not susceptible to having a seizure from this activity...thank goodness :)


Posted by: Angelina Vick on 12/10/2012 - 4:22 PM

I'm not sure I can say I've experienced what you described...the bordering on the psychotic part.

But...I can say that I know I reach points where it's almost obsessive. If I have a lot of good ideas, and I am achieving what I set out to do...sometimes I just don't want to stop working. Even if I need to do other things, like eat, groceries. Finding the perfect groove for my's not something that happens all the time. So I just keep working until I'm totally spent sometimes. It's like finding the perfect comfy in my bed...who wants to move out of that?


Posted by: Xoanxo Cespon on 12/10/2012 - 5:16 PM

@Robert, I don't, but I do often vanish during the process :-)


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 5:24 PM

I'm at a point right now of visual distortions and sensory detachment .. I will do one or two more hours work than shower, eat and hope to come in for a smooth landing..........................Xo I don't how to vanish but I can get really really small.........................................RJ


Posted by: I F A Shores on 12/10/2012 - 5:25 PM

O My! I thought he said Varnish .......


Posted by: Janine Riley on 12/10/2012 - 5:25 PM

More like keeps me from becoming psychotic. Gives me something tangible to obsess about - & is a great distraction to avoid interacting with people that can tend to make me feel psychotic. Lol.


Posted by: Shana Rowe on 12/10/2012 - 5:29 PM

Yup, painting drives me crazy, for the reasons Angel already described. It's funny just earlier today at my regular job, I was wondering how good for me painting actually is because when I am on a binge, my regular non-painting, 9-5 life is so hard to get through. I would rather be in my own little world painting. It seems painting is an obsession, and it is also a fantasy land for me, where I can make my own world. When I am not in that world regular everyday life can seem so depressing. (Besides when I am spending time with my husband, he always makes me happy ;) ) It hard forcing myself to go to work everyday when all I can think about is being home doing artwork. Everything else seems so meaning less.

When I am in a good groove, I can't sleep because there are to many ideas floating around in my head. When I am in the middle of a painting I usually will do it in one sitting because I am so engrossed. Then when I am finished hours have passed, and I am dizzy because I am hungry and didn't even notice. Not to mention the strain on my back. I have been trying to slow down lately and take more breaks in between, and it has helped some.


Posted by: Xoanxo Cespon on 12/10/2012 - 5:29 PM

LOL Beth, By the time I varnish (if I do) I am usually back :-)


Posted by: Tony Murray on 12/10/2012 - 5:30 PM

"Do you ever work so much painting that you begin to feel as if you have entered an alternate reality .. The pain your body is in some how fueling this out of body experience to the point of sensing if one is not careful one can tumble down into a psychotic Dali like seizure...???? "

Yes, but it's a good psychosis. Your brain can create some very powerful drugs.


Posted by: Xoanxo Cespon on 12/10/2012 - 5:30 PM

Thanks Robert!!! It might be that just "one small step...." :-)


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/10/2012 - 5:30 PM

nope, not really. i work with shots based on what other people should feel, based on lighting, angle, shading and color. once i make one i forget that i ever made it and move on to the next one. it's just a picture really. i might feel distracted, but i don't think that's one of the emotions.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Dan Daugherty on 12/10/2012 - 5:39 PM

I have to remain very "Aware" and safe in order to even work on my Sculptures. I don't want to cut off a finger or Torch someone walking into my shop...LOL... But I have been so involved in my work that I forget about time...And the good part, forgetting about pain sometimes, although it always seems to catch up to me.

Like Angelina said...When things are coming together who wants to stop.


Posted by: John Crothers on 12/10/2012 - 6:07 PM

Another question would be

Does a psychotic painter KNOW they are psychotic?


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 6:09 PM

he can only tell he's psychotic in relationship to others...


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/10/2012 - 7:21 PM

How much for a decent psychosis now days? Mine are worn out. No trade value at all. I prefer Carlos Castaneda to Dali.


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 7:23 PM

now we're talking A Separate Reality.... gotta dance between the two worlds like an actor....


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/10/2012 - 8:35 PM

But, which world is real? What if they are all real? It is good to drag the minds images from one world to another. Wish I could take a camera.


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 8:40 PM

Yes they are both real only separated from one another.. it's when we try to bring them together in the same room that it get's pictures aloud least you miss it


Posted by: Mary Bedy on 12/10/2012 - 8:43 PM

I haven't done an oil painting for 20 years, but you guys are bringing back memories. I used to find a scary spot where I was completely wrapped up on a portion of a painting, unaware of anything else, then the panic would set in when I realized I was not getting it right and the more I tried to blend and fix, the worse it got....Of course, that was oils, I have never been able to get the hang of acrylics because I'm a "blender". I could spend an hour blending a 6 inch portion of a canvas. And yes, I had the tunnel vision.


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 8:48 PM

Mary, I often get into trouble when I brake new ground and do my best work, an anxiety that I can't maintain it so I keep pushing till exhaustion and frustration derail it...


Posted by: Mary Bedy on 12/10/2012 - 8:58 PM

I often found when I left the room and didn't look at the thing for a couple of days, it wasn't as bad as I thought when I came back and really studied it. I was a traditional oil painter anyway (that is, let it dry for a week between sessions), so I had some time to think about how to fix something when I got too frustrated with it.


Posted by: Kip DeVore on 12/10/2012 - 10:07 PM

I think it can make us kind of weird -- not the chemical kind of weird, but the emotional kind of weird...


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 10:13 PM

so again emotion is being connected to this crazy place we go..? there must also be some fear involved no?


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/10/2012 - 10:13 PM

"You can't get there from here" or can you...............


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/10/2012 - 10:49 PM

Some people actually paint for the joy of it...I do it for the suffering....


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/11/2012 - 12:50 PM

"there must also be some fear involved no?" Fear is a luxury not many artists can afford. But you know that Robert


Posted by: William Allen on 12/11/2012 - 2:02 PM

Like Angelina said, it's hard to stop, when it's going good, dispite the fact you should be doing something else. A conversation sometimes heard in this house; "Hey Bill, It's time to eat." and I say,"Can you hold it off about a half hour, the canvas is talking to me." Then she says, "OK".( she understands.)mmmmmmmmaybe we're both Phychotic.....


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/11/2012 - 2:11 PM

Yes fear can not be indulged in .. Allen, when I'm "out" if someone is talking to me
I understand only one word at time and once they've finished I usually say" What?" and have no idea what they said


Posted by: Kip DeVore on 12/11/2012 - 3:57 PM

Yes, fear is involved -- fear of the canvas

It is nice to be able to paint for the joy of it


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/11/2012 - 4:02 PM

Thanks Kip, I feel anxiety for sure but I don't feel the Joy of Painting very often..I feel satisfaction perhaps.. my body has been put through the ringer and I still paint with vigor but I often feel trapped and second guess my choices in life..


Posted by: Daniel Rauch on 12/11/2012 - 5:13 PM

unused talent becomes a curse


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/11/2012 - 6:45 PM

For some Robert, pain is something to seek out. It becomes an end in itself.


Posted by: Shaunna Juuti on 12/11/2012 - 7:07 PM

I feel nervous sometimes even scared when I try a new drawing or pastel because Im not sure if I can get my vision and my hands to work on the same level. sometimes it happens and other times it doesnt , I feel all the emotions when I make art because I am an artist that sees the drawing if it was right infront of me . for instance Daisys red blanket ...It was a vision of seeing her snuggling her favorite blanket in the whole world and because I seen and felt what she was seeing and feeling I could bring it to life .


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/11/2012 - 7:10 PM

That is what it is all about Shaunna


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/11/2012 - 7:23 PM

Well I'm in enough pain to be inspired...Yes, I get bored doing the kind of work I'm good at too...


Posted by: David Larsen on 12/11/2012 - 9:59 PM

Am I the only one that does not get stressed out or anxious when I paint? I find it very soothing and relaxing. It is alone time. Even when I have a bad session, I simply scrape it off, regroup, and try it again later. It is not a huge stressor.

Also, I've got to say that I'm pretty satisfied with where I'm going. Most of the pieces I start turn out okay in the end. In fact, I even knock it out of the park once and a while. That is not to say that I think I'm god's gift to painting or anything. I'm just happy with my progress.

In addition, I've never had any alternate reality, out of body experiences when I paint. It is simply time spent between me and my subject. In fact, if anything, it is my time out from the rest of my life. It is quiet, relaxing, zero stress.

Painting definitely does not make me crazy.


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 9:36 AM

David, do the you ability to zone out? I don't, painting makes me hyper aware .. I can't veg out on TV, if I watch a good movie I'm up all night reliving every moment


Posted by: Robert Kernodle on 12/12/2012 - 2:13 PM

... been away from the FAA forums lately, but when I took a look today, I saw this painting-psychosis thread that looked interesting, so here's my thought:

Maybe painting does not make a person psychotic, but rather, a precursor psychotic leaning drives a person to paint to begin with. Then the psychosis (via obsessive focus) can take full hold, if the activity proceeds long enough.

In other words, painting doesn't make you crazy; crazy makes you paint (^_^).

- Robert Kernodle


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 5:37 PM

This is a corner of the room I've been working on 8 hours a day for 7 days in the city.. It's been a sensory depravation launched into a fantasy world, returning to the mountains today I saw the real light with much more appreciation ...
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Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 5:40 PM

i still say it's the fumes, open the window, turn on a fan. all that paint in one spot... it should do something bad. even latex paint, i think it has ammonia in it. it had something that offended the nose anyway...

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 6:04 PM

I get a similar reaction when working outside in the open air..I had the window open with a fan


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 6:05 PM

maybe it's the colors? or your concentrating just a wee too hard on it? well, just don't cut off your ear or anything.

.... you'll never get the blood off the canvas.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 6:07 PM

mmmmm.... you don't have any paints that have mercury in them do you? how about those walls - lead paint? those are potentials if your right near them. looks like you smoke so maybe if your hands had paint on it, your digesting it?

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 6:15 PM

I had my blood tested a few years back for metals and they said I had unusually low levels especially for a painter.. and I don't smoke anymore...I did tile work a long time ago and once had to do an entire bathroom floors and walls in those little black and white tiles from the 20s and had an even worse reaction...


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 6:28 PM

maybe you need more metals?

then it could be related to epilepsy and the pattern of colors are a trigger. i suppose the easiest test is to look at a checkerboard and see if that does anything. or look at an optical illusion of just dots, the one that makes it look like they are flashing or are connected by lines. your eye would flicker between them and it could cause a reaction. how are you with florescent lights? does the flicker make your brain buzz?

you might want to see a doctor about it in case it does get worse. i'm guessing epilepsy because you seem to follow some of the traits, if it's not fumes, or metals, i'm betting it's something with that in mind.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 6:29 PM

this will put your brain into the loopy zone, i'm curious how this makes you feel.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert Kernodle on 12/12/2012 - 7:15 PM

The chemical reaction is NOT in the paints or in the air you breathe. It's all in your brain.

This is your brain -- [APPROPRIATE ILLUSTRATION]

This is your brain on painting -- [ILLUSTRATION OF SCRAMBLED EGGS]

(^_^) ....hehehehehe!

I once spent months on a 9-foot by 6-foot pencil drawing on my then efficiency apartment wall. I didn't ask the landlord first whether I could do it. I eventually moved away, and I bet the refurbish people gladly painted right over it, to prepare the apartment for the next renter.

- Robert


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 7:21 PM

good dx mike..I have a brain tumor that impairs my vision and also have a long history of seizures..Semmicks avatar gets to me


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 7:47 PM

so there you go... i guess that the pattern must fire in the area of the tumor and create this newer fun side effect. i wonder if you had a color over your eyes if it would cut down on the issue. for dyslexics, if you wear pink sunglasses it cuts down on the distraction. sometimes the words will jump around on the page, so maybe the same thing will help you? it will taint the colors you use though so you would have to experiment.

is the tumor on the right side? on the creative side? it would make sense if it was. i'll get a little dizzy if i over think something, though i think that's just brain noise.

i wonder if you listened to music if that would help, something to distract the brain while your doing something in color. try different kinds to see if there's a counter. like if you listened to heavy metal, something with a dense theta beat, would it worsen it? or if you listen to something like gaga or gut wrenching madonna which should stir a beta beat, which i think should effect the left half of the brain, same with classical music, maybe all that might counter balance it?

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 7:56 PM

Right cavernous sinus entangled in optic nerves and encasing the internal carotid ... the black spot is the carotid... I do better with tinted glasses and I don't like music unless driving or alone and usually it's about the lyrics..I have almost perfect pitch and can pick up a musical instrument and teach myself to play it in a very short time...the artist Semmecks avatar from FAA jambs my brain...
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Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 8:08 PM

yeah i just looked him up, it engages both sides of the brain and that causes conflictions, i would bet those stare o gram things do the same thing. i wonder if you listened to either trance or something classical. vilvadi where he uses a combination that doesn't give me a headache. though the trance should be the beat kind, not the one that switches channels on you, inducing dizziness. just a rhythmic sound. like i need to hear multiple beats, certain kinds of heavy metal will have like a general beat, then a smaller amount of beats (hard to explain), seems to relax me and keep me concentrated at the same time. but i have to feel the music so bass is needed.

i wonder if simply wearing an eye patch on that side would be enough to slow the feeling. because near as i can tell the patterns or color combo is simply exciting the tumor in an odd way and causing the feeling. might be a valid experiment since the tint seems to help a bit. you'll look like a pirate though.

you should put a price on that brain, it could probably sell.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 8:15 PM

I was going to donate it to science Mike.....................I've been told an eye patch may be in order someday but I can live with where I'm at right now..... I play the prayer flute and harmonica ..the flute calms me and harm charges me.I like to chant a good funeral dirge .. have done hand drumming but not in a while.... I live with a head ache almost 24/7.. are you epileptic ?


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 8:30 PM

the picture or your brain? you might want to hold off with the brain until your dead....

part of the music is that your playing it which will probably charge a different area of the brain. where listening to music will excite a different part. the visuals of a brain are in the back, i think the front is memory and lower than that, thought? i guess maybe the tumor is in the thought area of the brain....

not epileptic, but i do have self diagnosed discalcula, it's like dyslexia, just as hard to spell, but instead of switching letters i do it with numbers. 3 or more forget it. i had a shipping and inventory job once. i didn't know i was doing anything wrong. my eyes would see the number, in my head i would know the number, my hand would write it's own version, i would see it like it should be written, it was wrong. 669 696 stuff like that. i didn't know i was doing anything wrong until they fired me. they said i kept doing it and it wasn't the first time - why didn't you say something the first time it happened? we didn't want you to feel bad. so firing me, will make me feel good?

from that point on i still catch myself but only because i read the number from different segments or backwards to check myself.

they say that dyslexics - their mind works differently then others. many cast them off as being dumb because the words don't stay on the page and it's hard to concentrate. but what's really happening is, the right half of the brain can be like 4 times or more faster then the left half. the right brain solves patterns, while the left gives meaning to the shapes. so by the time the left brain parsed the word, the right brain finished a long time ago. but because letters are just shapes, and often likes to group things up in an order that makes sense, the words may rearrange themselves.

like united - will always read as untied to me. because the line in the -i- and in the -t- are universal in shape and can move without a problem, same goes with numbers.

and i learned how i read things when i started to study japanese (not so much now since i do the art stuff now), but when i read english i find that i will usually look at the third letter in, skip to the first, then try to guess the word based on length, shape, etc i'm right most of the time, but it depends which i read it from. same with road signs. read it with my right eye and it makes little sense, read it with my left and there's meaning (it makes little sense since the brain sides switch, but there are parallel brains in thinking processes, hard to say). i do know that i think in pictures and videos, not in words, so all of that may have something to do with it.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 8:35 PM

thinking about it, i wonder if your increasing the size of the tumor by feeding it with all the painting your doing, and if you used an eye patch, or just a cool compress each day if the symptoms would lessen.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/12/2012 - 8:39 PM

I was told to push myself visually on top of painting I am reading a lot, something I only do in stages..when i stop reading it's harder for me to pick it up again..after a few weeks reading I can do it with less pain..the one eye doesn't track well so I see slightly double and the pupil doesn't react the same...


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 8:42 PM

i still wonder if making the other eye stronger would actually help. but i'm not a doctor so i don't know if it would hurt more. it's just my reasoning that if you have a sore spot, that if you poke it it will always be sore or more sore. but if you leave it alone it will go away. i doubt it would go away in this case, but maybe it would me either more balanced, or the area the tumor is effecting will be transfered to another part of the brain if it's no longer in use. or so goes the theory.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Isabella F Abbie Shores on 12/12/2012 - 8:45 PM

I am , RJ....epileptic


Posted by: Isabella F Abbie Shores on 12/12/2012 - 8:49 PM

Mike, my bf is word dyslexic. He sees things far more logically and all things for him are he sees things as images. His temper is short if he has to read things and he suffers headaches etc through reading


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 9:14 PM

if i see a word in my head it will be there for a second and just fade, often the word is a red or a maroon color. i can read more or less fine, but numbers, forget it. though try the pink sunglasses on him. i heard it does wonders

you might try using photo gels as an experiment to see if that works.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Isabella F Abbie Shores on 12/12/2012 - 9:22 PM

He already has a pair :)


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/12/2012 - 9:31 PM

maybe a different color? different shade? sometimes they say it's the lighting source.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/13/2012 - 11:05 AM

Do you still have seizures Beth I know we talked about this before? I was on Medication that was making them worse, since off the med I have a much better life for me.... Do you guys think our different brain functions show up in the work? I had a doctor say that he thought my eye problems actually helped me see light in a more acute way..


Posted by: Isabella F Abbie Shores on 12/13/2012 - 11:11 AM

Do I think it shows up? Absolutely. Not so much in the work I do for others but, for the work I do for myself, yes.

Yes I do still have them but thankfully petit mal and few and far between now. Did stop breathing in the last one though... thank heavens for bf LOL


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/13/2012 - 11:24 AM

Do you feel like working to hard aggravates it? I know when I'm stressed I can't spell to save my life...


Posted by: Isabella F Abbie Shores on 12/13/2012 - 11:26 AM

Surprisingly it doesn't seem to unless I am tired too. I am a pretty laid back person in the real world so that helps :) Life is not worth stressing and the illness causes enough by itself, RJ. I think it is okay to stress over the things you can change and just go with the flow on the rest


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/13/2012 - 11:52 AM

Does Escher's work bother you? How about some of the mathematical illusions? What happens when you look at Semmicks icon?


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/13/2012 - 12:08 PM

Escher never noticed but than again his work always bored much id, like some overindulged nerd going oh this is cool...Semmecks image jambs my brain..I see it one way then almost as hallucination I see it the next, my brain wants to get out of it but can't then it goes back and forth without my control and hurts my head


Posted by: Mike Savad on 12/13/2012 - 12:17 PM

in his case it's when he sees something and it uses both sides of the brain, there will always be confliction, that's what makes illusions work. the right side sees the picture, the left tries to make sense of it and the battle of the two is what makes it fun. but he has a major short on the visual part which i guess is making things hard. so like images with checkers, those dots, that negative space thing will do it. while perspective illusions should be ok because it only involves half the brain, or so goes the theory.

---Mike Savad


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/13/2012 - 1:00 PM

"Ther are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors to perception". Huxley Could be you are knocking at a door you may or may not want to go through.


Posted by: Robert James Hacunda on 12/13/2012 - 1:56 PM

Yes Mark My doctor/shaman told me it has left me privy to certain information I would not be privy to otherwise.


Posted by: Mark James Perry on 12/13/2012 - 2:37 PM

I'm extremely interested in what else the witch doc has to say. Could be time for peyote, You never know.


Posted by: Penny M on 12/13/2012 - 7:43 PM

It's a good question, based on the discussion board tonight...


Posted by: I F A Shores on 12/13/2012 - 8:13 PM

Probably the best asked for a while, Penny


This discussion is closed.