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Andrew Fare

8 Years Ago

Should Free Shipping Be Permanent?

Should FAA try and work out a viable way to make free shipping permanent. Would you support a modest price increase to offset any additional costs? Would you be willing to sacrifice a small portion of your commisions to make free shipping permanent? If it was made permanent should there be a minimum purchase order to get free shipping?

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Arletta Cwalina

8 Years Ago

Someone will loose money on this idea. The question then should be - who will pay for the free shipping?

No, I don't think there's a way to make it free and I don't want to increase my pricing to cover the shipping from my side forever. It's great to do it in occasion just like give the discount code or promotions. The more agencies give away for free, the more they loose and have no chance to grow properly.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Been discussed several times before.

This is the first time I have see Sean offer free shipping but we are told that he does test the waters now and again.

I don't think it would be realistic to think that FAA is all of a sudden going to be able to absorb all shipping costs on an ongoing basis. Making that request to me would be suggesting that the pricing has been way out of line in the past. On the other hand if Sean can see from the experiments he has done in the past, that the cost of shipping would indeed be covered by increase in volume, than so be it.

But I don't think it is realistic to all of sudden see free shipping and us not participating in covering that cost either through adding to our profits on in higher fees.

As the saying goes, there ain't no free lunch.

I would like to see the free shipping be optional for each member. I seriously think that so many would opt out that it would give the people that opted in an advantage.

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

Amazon has free shipping only on certain items, or it's available if you pay ($99 yr) to use the Prime (2-day shipping) option.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Amazon is betting on the a whole lot of people paying that fee and then not buying enough to use it up and then end up being charged for it year after year because they forget they signed up for it.

I personally find it disingenuous at best. I think there is a better way to go overall.

 

Brian Wallace

8 Years Ago

Really, you can ask yourself, should the the world have "BLACK FRIDAY" all year long.

 

Abbie Shores

8 Years Ago

I think not but its not my call

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

Concur, Floyd, but there are folks who do use it regularly. One of my brothers and his wife order a lot, plus stream quite a few movies through the service. I guess it ranks up there with the number of businesses that count on gift cards being bought, but never used.

I've thought about the Prime service, but it would not be cost-efficient for me. The use of free shipping (within limits) here however might be beneficial though, for members, and Sean (volume perhaps).

 

Joseph C Hinson

8 Years Ago

No.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Abbie, what is the scuttle-butt on FAA doing free shipping all the time?

I personally would love to see a pay more and opt in option.

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

"...a pay more and opt in option."


Interesting option, Floyd. What if sales did not increase? Would there be an option to return to the standard (lower) fee and opt-out of it at membership renewal time?

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Sean seems to be big on opt in and opt out so assuming it would be practical, yes I can see that.

But I have every confidence that sales will increase. But I have to also be honest with you, and this is the pragmatic side of me that is brutal, but it is the way I see it. It would work best it only half or less of the sellers here opted in. Those the opted in would be sought out by the shoppers, imho.

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

"...It would work best it only half or less of the sellers here opted in..."


That's probably what would happen, especially depending on the amount the fee increased to. Too high a fee and the number of participants will be smaller, imho.

 

JC Findley

8 Years Ago

Amazon's free shipping is not free and WELL beyond the $99/year. Again, I will use the 2 liter soda as an example. As a prime member, I get "free shipping" so looked into ordering Diet Sundrop from Amazon. At $6/bottle, or between 3 and 6 times what I would pay for it in person, I think the cost of shipping is absorbed in the cost of the item.

So do you want the cost of your product to fluctuate with the price of fuel?

 

Joshua House

8 Years Ago

It would be a nightmare to have to deal with all the people who chose to opt in pay a significant fee and then still don't sell because there's no market for what they produce. Imagine all the people who come in whining now and multiply it by what, ten fold? One hundred fold?

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

"...I think the cost of shipping is absorbed in the cost of the item. ..."


Yep, probably is, plus the number of Prime members paying $99 a year probably helps defray the shipping costs also.

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

"...Imagine all the people who come in whining now and multiply it by what, ten fold? One hundred fold?"


As part of the Opt-in have them check a No Whining Allowed box. if they whine they're booted from the program, with no refund. Whining is just human nature, it's how one [tactfully] does it that is the trick. ;)

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

And that is why they would be able to opt out again, Joshua.

Anything is possible if it makes sense and there is more money to be made. We are not going to work the details out in this thread, that's for sure. The coders would have to work all of that out.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Greg! A no whining box!! Hell man we need that now! lol

Sometimes you just hit the nail right on the head and in some few words! I just love that, even when it is me being nailed! lol

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

;) Staple of my success in the military. No bitching, just go to work, do the job, and complain later....or while doing the task. :)

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

JC is correct of course.

Put the public has bought this "lie", swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

I am perfectly willing to let the public pay too much when they have been to lazy to figure it for themselves.

Caveat emptor.... they did this to themselves with out any help from me. I was late coming to the party and was one of the last big print dealers to go to free shipping on eBay. But finally I had to do it to compete.

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

JC,

Kroger has/had their Big K soda on sale, buy one get one free for $.99 ;)

 

Loretta Luglio

8 Years Ago

If shipping were free it would come out of the artist profit somehow. Most stores do offer free shipping in the holiday season but for the rest of the year the customer expects to have shipping and taxes added to the cart when paying. Raising our prices to accommodate this only makes us less competitive.

 

Arletta Cwalina

8 Years Ago

From FAA FAQ:

Do you offer free shipping?
No. We never run free shipping promotions. Shipping is never actually free. If a website is offering you "free shipping", they are simply marking up the prices of their products in order to cover the shipping charges.


This is what I am talking about - it's never free, someone will pay from his pocket this or that way. It can be called FREE but it will be with hidden cost elsewhere.

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

I guess they need to update the FAQ blurb to state "occasionally free shipping is offered during special events".

 

Chuck Staley

8 Years Ago

When I worked in retail at the Writers Store, shipping made the store a ton of extra money each year.

You can bet all the vendors profit by charging for shipping.

As Arletta says above: "...someone will pay from his pocket this or that way. It can be called FREE but it will be with hidden cost elsewhere."

 

Patricia Strand

8 Years Ago

Would be nice as a perk for membership to have free shipping to ourselves (without raising the base prices to cover it). I'm always getting ready to purchase one of my own larger prints, but then after the shipping is added, I back out. I'm really cheap.

 

Tatiana Iliina

8 Years Ago

The thing with "free" shipping that does make it attractive, regardless of whether the item price is simply inflated, is that the shopper actually knows the total they will pay (import costs excepted). The difficulty with many sites is that it is very hard to find out what the shipping costs will be. Sometimes you have to "join" or register with the site and sometimes you have to even enter payment information before actually being able to see shipping costs and terms. So, when you know it's "free" it simplifies your life.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

"You can bet all the vendors profit by charging for shipping. "

No, you can not bet on that. I have 12 sights and my shipping department loses money.

On eBay if a buyers thinks you overcharged them for shipping and complaints to eBay, eBay will investigate and they will close you down if they find that you have been doing it on an ongoing basis. Same thing on most of my other sores that I do not host myself.

My branded sight from one of the nation's best publishers charges a flat rate on shipping and I know they can not be making money because I know what it cost me to ship the exact same box they ship to me.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

"This is what I am talking about - it's never free, someone will pay from his pocket this or that way. It can be called FREE but it will be with hidden cost elsewhere.

No one has said that is not true. Of course the money had to come from somewhere. I have posted that dozens of times all over FAA threads.

But the problem is the public perception is that it is free. When the vast majority of the public precises something to be true even if it is not, you have to deal with the perception, not the reality.

The perception becomes the reality in those people's mind. That is what you have to deal with when it becomes the accepted standard, right or wrong.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Tatiana Iliina, exactly right.

My wife shops a lot online (or anywhere else for that matter! ).

She is certainly well aware of the fact that there is not free shipping. But she hates to have to go through the process of putting it in the cart and jumping through the hoops to see what the real final cost is going to be.

There is lot to be said just about the convince factor.

 

Laura Fasulo

8 Years Ago

In general I think the shipping is reasonable the shipping on certain larger items can be a deterrent

$75 to ship a 48 inch canvas is steep

Laura Fasulo - sofloart

 

David King

8 Years Ago

The words "Free Shipping" has the magic effect that the words "Free Food" do. I'm always amazed at what people will give up for "free food" (an hour of my time for a $5 hogie sandwich? No thanks.) and "free shipping" gets people to buy things they wouldn't otherwise buy, people are often too lazy to do that math and realize in many cases "free shipping" is not a good deal. It is a great marketing ploy though as we've seen the past couple days, however, assuming the volume is what is making up for the shipping costs would that work on any other day? Maybe it's been gangbusters yesterday and today, but would it increase the volume enough in January? And after a few months once people get used to it would it increase the volume at all? I'm guessing as others mention it would require an increase in the price of the product to make up for it.

 

Andrew Fare

8 Years Ago

This 2 day free shipping event is probably not a good indicator of how things wil go because nobody knew about in advance. You're right though David, free shipping is a very alluring thing. I would imagine shipping costs and the unpredictably of shipping costs is a major irritant for online shopper's and in my opinion is the weak link in the chain. I definitely think it's best to institute a minimum purchase to qualify for the free shipping though.

 

Mike Savad

8 Years Ago

it would be great if they did, but the costs would be out of this world. however he does get discounts through bulk things at the place he prints at. and or he could subsidize the costs to make them look lower or be lower.

i think it would depend what they order though. paper should ship pretty cheap. canvas to bulgaria probably not.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

 

Don Zawadiwsky

8 Years Ago

One topic I don't see mentioned in this discussion: If everyone took advantage of free international shipping under this promotion, the shipping costs would be astronomical. If you don't believe me, just go to the cost calculator for FedEx / Oops / USPS and play with even a small package international rate.

I think FAA is counting on the fact that not all orders will be shipped internationally. If they were, no way this free shipping promotion would work. So while it's nice to offer free international shipping, how often is it actually being used that way? My guess is not that often and that the majority of orders will be shipped inside a country as opposed to another one. Maybe we can get metrics at some point to see how many orders were placed nationally vs. internationally.

 

Cynthia Decker

8 Years Ago

Nope, not permanent. A couple times a year would be great though.

Based on my sales over the last two days, clearly free shipping is an incentive to buy for some people. However, in order to make this permanent, the base price of the products would have to be increased. I don't want that. FAA shipping is generally very reasonable anyway.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

No way in the world could Sean just absorb free shipping. His entire business model is based on "plus" shipping. To just automatically think that there is any way to just start paying all the shipping costs is not reasonable. It would totally blow his business model out of the water.

If you have ever run a shipping department or seen the numbers on an accountant's spreadsheet, you would see that. There are standard rules of accounting that will tell you what your costs of shipping, inbound and outbound, should be. If you are not within those ranges, they will be noted as such on any official audit that is done by a CPA. Of course if you have no bank loans or stock holders, you can get away with it if you chose, but it is no way to run a Navy, imho.

As for permanent free shipping, of the 12 sites I was able to convert to free shipping, all of them have seen increased sales. In all cases I simply build the shipping costs into the selling price. Never see even the slightest hic-up. In fact the more expensive your art is, the easier it is to build in because the shipping is a much smaller percentage of the over all price as a rule.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

"Maybe we can get metrics at some point to see how many orders were placed nationally vs. internationally."

Don't hold your breadth on that one! lol

You could take your own survey by watching the recently sold page and tracking it and making you sure you get a large enough sampling to make it a viable survey.

But you would have to be able to track the stuff that is sent to an overseas country but produced in that country by one of the 14 world wide suppliers.

I do no not offer free shipping on overseas shipments. That is the way that is handled.

 

Melissa Bittinger

8 Years Ago

Most people are not dumb enough to think it's actually 'free', they know it's built in but the beauty is the price they see is the price period. For the sake of the debate, let's say it IS really free (like the past two days) and the seller has absorbed the cost. For online selling of merchandise, I figure that is balanced out by NOT having a brick and mortar storefront with potentially high rents. Just a cost of doing business.

I DON'T order as much from here as I would because s/h is all over the place and I can't anticipate the costs easily. I did order two items last night...because the shipping was...FREE...would've ordered more if I'd known in advance, I could've reserved some funds :o)

 

Greg Jackson

8 Years Ago

" Most people are not dumb enough to think it's actually 'free', they know it's built in, but the beauty is the price they see is the price period."

Absolutely.

 

Mark Tisdale

8 Years Ago

Just because Sean doesn't have a store you can walk into doesn't mean there's no expense associated with his business. I wouldn't expect him to magically wave a wand and absorb shipping prices. He still has servers he's renting, storage space for all the work we're uploading, etc. Never mind a few people's salaries. Doing it occasionally, well, he has to balance the books but it certainly generates some buzz for his site. So, it might be worth it without raising prices and just consider it a marketing expense, but beyond that as several have observed, prices would have to change. And the most logical place is the base price.

If you haven't recently priced shipping, I have for something I was working on, and if you were to order an 8" canvas print - the smallest you can, the price is nearly $14. For a 8" normal framed print (frame and mat of course being larger than 8"), it's right around $17. Go take a peek at the average price of an 8" print on the site, and keep in mind the artist controls the price for the size not the product chosen, you'll find a great number of them the artist mark-up wouldn't be enough to fund the shipping just for those products. I'm not sure some would break even for a single card shipped. So, if it's coming out of the artist mark-up then you have to make sure the artists charge enough to pay the shipping! LOL By the time you've coded that hot mess to make sure that Artist X enters enough to ship for free, you could have just raised the base prices and been done with it. It would take a lot less development cost.

I'm torn on the whole thing. It's a nice promotion, and I know people are getting used to thinking things ship free. But at the end of the day Fedex doesn't have a free shipping box anywhere. So it feels deceptive to me. Maybe the norm or soon will be but still feels off to me.

 

Rowena Throckmorton

8 Years Ago

Honestly, I've worked in shipping before, and FAA's shipping rates are quite reasonable. There's another site that offers coupon codes for "free" prints all the time, but you have to pay shipping. What they charge for shipping is what the item should cost to begin with. I'd much rather have the "free shipping" be offered every now and then for holidays, or site anniversaries.

I got three totes shipped to me from FAA for the same price as shipping for one--most places add $$ for each additional item. For larger items--framed prints, specifically, the rates here seem quite reasonable considering that you ~want~ to know they are handled and packaged carefully, and correctly.

If you're discussing the Amazon model, a "buy more, save more" option might work better. Many online retailers of all sorts offer free shipping once you hit a certain price point. All of this is up to the site owner, of course, but since we're throwing in opinions...we all "earn" our keep to some degree with the free advertising we provide the site. Think of all the hundreds (thousands?) of us sharing the site on social media every time we promote our own art. The freedom we have on this site to manage ourselves how we choose--work hard/sell hard, or just share some stuff and friends stop by to purchase every now and then, and to set our own markups, well, that's something I wouldn't want to see changed just to give "free" shipping. The other POD sites place so many restrictions on the artists, but they wouldn't exist if the artists weren't there!

Anyway, the cost to the artist, and the freedom to determine my own fate led me to choose to make FAA my online home. Free shipping wasn't a factor.

 

Melissa Bittinger

8 Years Ago

I order supplies for my non art business from a company that offers free shipping for orders over $100...so I wait until I have that before I order.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Melissa, and that is another way FAA could offer free shipping. Make it contingent on a dollar amount. There are many ways this could happen and make everyone happy.

But I do think it is not for everyone and it should be an opt in choice for anyone that wants to use it. But I am not sure if that is even possible.

 

Andrew Fare

8 Years Ago

And don't forget there are now fulfillment centres all over the world so that helps cut down on shipping costs if he decides to go that route.

 

Jane Linders

8 Years Ago

I think shipping should be free if they buy over a certain dollar amount. Over $500? I'm tweeting, pinterest and facebooking about the free shipping all over the place today.
No sales yet, but I AM getting a lot more traffic.

 

Mark Papke

8 Years Ago

A few months back someone bought a framed 60" print and told me the shipping was $300. While it would be great to offer free shipping, someone would have to pay for it and that $300 shipping cost would have brought my profit on that sale down to $100. If I raised my price by $300 dollars I probably would not have gotten the sale. It has to be paid somehow and to offer it permanantly would cause someone loss of money and I don't want to be that someone. Nor should anyone else have to be either.

 

Loretta Luglio

8 Years Ago

In our 2nd day of free shipping had anyone seen an uptick in sales? Nada for me

 

Mark Papke

8 Years Ago

Not for me either, and I promoted it too. I don't have the following that alot of these guys selling do.

 

Frank J Casella

8 Years Ago

When I shop bhphoto.com or adorama.com there are select items that are always free shipping ... and, yes, it is the most economical method ... so I think it might be a trend coming in the industry. Wait and see. ....

 

See My Photos

8 Years Ago

How will you cover loss from returns? Shipping is usually not covered.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

Mark, they paid the $300 one way or the other. It was the same out of pocket. It does not matter if it was on the back end or the front end.

But you are talking a really large, oversize package. Of course it was expensive and it got hit with an oversize package surcharge.

No one would expect a system that would not take that into consideration.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

"How will you cover loss from returns? Shipping is usually not covered."

The buyer ships returns back on their own dime unless it was due to some sort of product error. I only order a pick up if they can prove that it was some sort of error. Other than that they have to ship it back on their own dime and then a determination is made and refund for shipping if the error was on my side. Over the years, this has just not been a big problem. Just part of doing business.

If I see the error was no my side, I will not always even ask for a return. I just let them keep it and ship a new one. Cost of returning shipping and dealing with it when it gets here is not worth it in a lot of cases.

We are not reinventing the wheel here. This is being done by few hundred or thousand retailers all ready. The fine tuning would have to be made, but the template is already out there.

 

See My Photos

8 Years Ago

If the artist cover shipping with Mark ups and item is returned will artist be willing to cover cost of outgoing shipping for returned items. Sales now are only confirmed after 30 day waiting period. Faa loses on shipping for items returned.

 

Floyd Snyder

8 Years Ago

I don't think the oversize packages are going to set the norms.

We kind of already covered that. Not all things will automatically qualify for free shipping. No where is that happening accept in the case of what is going on in this special Sean is running. And I doubt it will be come permanent policy. But hey, who knows!?

Any on going policy, if there is one, the details will be worked out. As I said above, this is going on all over the place. It is not like Sean would be reinventing the wheel.

 

This discussion is closed.