To The New Photographers Here

True. I have not given up and I am seeing lots of good happening

Great words Diana. Well said.

Well said, Diana. Attitude is everything.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Cheers! Hugs!

Great post Diana!

Listen to everyone, read everyone, but trust no one but yourself! The only one that knows what is right for you, is you!

',,, There is NO almightly GOD of photography out there who casts his spell on you! '

Pssst, don't tell Mike!

Well said, Diana. The same can be said for most undertakings in life. Listen to the advice of others because there may be a few gems that will help you hone your skills but don't be fooled into thinking that everyone who has an opinion knows more than you do or creates better work.

Once the newbies are here for a while they'll soon figure out who knows what they're talking about (and can back it up) and who puts out cruddy work but loves to offer advice anyway.

Mike.. is great in his craft, I respect him for that.. but life lives on without Mike...

no it doesn't.

not a good one anyway.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

everyone has their own way of explaining things. i - personally don't sugar coat. i find its a huge waste of time to endlessly compliment people and hidden behind all of that, then you might find info in there. i get to the point. to some that might seem gruff or rougher or even negative, but i say the same things as others, only without the froot the loops. i'd say about 20% of the people don't like it that way... the other 80% do like it straight like that. i tell it like it is. if you don't like it you don't have to buy into it, i don't care much. if some says something you don't like to hear - but its true, you should look into it and put your feelings aside. if you don't agree, then don't agree.

i never volunteer info, i only add if someone asks, i just don't have time in the day to spend on people that don't really care. its simple.

i still remember my metal shop teacher, all the way back from the 7th grade. i never liked him. he never complimented or said good job. if anything he always pointed out what you did wrong... but after all those years i forgot most of my teachers, forgot every teacher i had in junior high, i must have blocked it all out. i remembered him. because he taught real lessons. he never much smiled, but he never sugar coated. if someone was doing something really dumb, he simply said that, and shut off whatever they were doing (in this case getting tangled up in the acetylene hose.)

i don't model after him, but i'm more or less like him. get to the point, and show your teeth only if you need to scare something away.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I rest my case!

you rest your case? in what way exactly?


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Mike, don't sweat it..

Just follow your heart everyone...not the aggressive advise givers!

FWIW, I'm in the "cut to the chase" crowd. If I didn't know better by now I'd think that people who come on here asking for a critique, actually want one.

I am reading and paying attention!

Different people like information given to them in different ways.
I like the way Mike does it.Get right to the point and don't say something is good if it isn't.It does not help doing that.
What I do like to do is point out something that is good as well as the bad points so it isn't all doom and gloom.

Good advice! We go up the mountains and down. Just be yourself.

Ditto what Roy said..Which is also what Diana is saying and the the subject of the thread..yet someone had to put his dig into Mike....shows you that guy doesnt agree with the concensus here..my two cents

Yup, just listen to Momma. If she likes it then its probably good enough to hang in a museum.

often what happens is, people are used to getting lied too. they are used to getting frosting, sunshine and soft flowers. and so when someone hands them a rose and its covered in thorns, they are surprised and shocked that it had thorns, and that's life. if your warned that roses have thorns you would be cautious of that and tread carefully. today we live in a world of nothing but people prancing to and fro showing only the lighter sides of things.

all art goes on the fridge. if you win a game you eat pizza. if you lose a game you eat pizza, everyone gets a trophy just for trying and showing up. everyone wins. so if everyone wins, then no one has to try hard. then they are shocked when they get into the real world... failure has consequences.

many are like that here. they ask for advice, they are new to whatever - i want to sell, why am i not selling? often because they never developed their craft around people that told them about their work in a learning environment. no matter how bad it might have been, it got a compliment of some kind. so when they start selling and they aren't getting compliments - anything they hear now is a shock to their system.

some people are open to the truth as that person see's it.

there are others that are on the other side, they only compliment, they are so used to doing it that anything else seems like an insult. or because they feel bad if they got something not sweet - then the other people feel the same way, and its mean to say anything but sweet thoughts. they read a constructive advice as mean and insulting. and that's not right.

so new people - if you have questions, be prepared at the answers you get. some give poor advice. some never sold a thing yet give you tons of advice how to do it. others may not have the art to support their claims in trying to help you. others are rude or insulting. if you ask for a critique, just listen to them. you don't have to change things, but keep an eye out for the next time. unless of course your a painter and someone says - this won't print, its due to the clarity of the image. if you don't fix it, they can't sell it. (the site won't print it)


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I agree Mike, new people always hearing "you're work is good" can give one a false sense of their true ability. This reminds me of something my Professor said on the first day of a photo class:

'Everyone with a camera thinks they're a great photographer, but truth is everyone with a camera isn't a great photographer and most will never be.'

That rec'd quite a reaction from all the youngsters in the class. My prof often called on me to critique, as I pulled no punches; never sugar coated it. One classmate took extreme offense at what I said about their images. I replied, 'I'm not here to make friends or lie to anyone. Ignore what I say, cuz after all it's just my opinion and that doesn't count for anything. But I ask that when you critique my work you tell me straight, since I view sugar coating as outright lying. Besides I'll never learn anything if everyone always lies to me about my work. Also I would suggest you develop tougher skin, because rejection and people not liking your work is common place in this field. If you take everything to heart, you've failed before you began. Just be true to yourself and always do what makes you happy. Not for money or notoriety, but for you cuz you may never make money or be famous as a photog.'

~ Charly

Mike is absolutely right. Coddle a child and that child becomes an adult with thin skin and limited coping skills.

I used to live on the big rez and at first I was appalled at how very young children were expected to learn how to deal with hard realities on their own rather than being protected from them. I soon understood how important it was that they become independent and capable early on so they can survive and thrive. Life is tough and those kids could handle situations that would send other kids screaming for Mama. Another take away is that the kids on the rez really appreciated everything they were given and didn't take it all for granted like the entitled brats from my world.

I find the advice on marketing that I read on this site very helpful. There are serious artists who know how to produce great art and know how to generate income. That is an oncredible resoutce and,in my mind,the real value of FAA and this forum. I never solicit opinions on my work because I know some will like some of it,some won't. My motivation and sheer enjoyment of photography are not based on a small sample of opinion.

Thanks for the encouraging post Diana!

When it comes down to it everything is opinion.

Friends and family will lie to you or perhaps it isn't a lie so much as a rather biased truth. Telling someone their work is fantastic when it is not is most certainly not a recipe for growth.

Granted, some of the critiques here can be rather blunt but there is usually useful information contained within. Even seasoned photographers can learn from critique. I do agree with the OP in that one should not take the critique personally but rather look past the mere words for things you can use to better yourself. Ignore that which won't help.

i remember critiquing one person here, and the colors were garish and out of gamut. i wanted to poke my own eyes out. if you could cover a small puppy in rhinestones, then, cover that in florescent orange and green paint, that's what the work looked like. but that was her style. i do wonder if any of it sold though, because i think the question was related to that.

though that crazy color pattern to animal thing seems to be popular right now. but i see that as a phase and it will die off.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I guess everything dies off eventually. The colorful animal images are hung in veterinary offices, so that's a market there if anyone wants to go after it. I've seen them (and I've been to a lot of vets). But whatever ... I think you get more satisfaction out of doing what makes you happy (as Diana says), and if someone likes it enough to buy it, that's the icing. Honestly, I wish the critiques on this site would deal only with technical issues and leave the subjective comments out. If you are going to accept subjective comments, then you need to consider the source.

Nicely said Diana. You can't take the advise personally. But, when you get good advise, use it constructively and learn from it. We all improve with time. Don't let it get you down. I think we all, or most of us, from time to time, get to hard on ourselves. You have to remember that everyone has different opinions and likes different things. I do have to say that for me, I respect Mike's advise most of the time. He did help me to grow/improve and taught me what to look for. I've learned a lot from all the constructive critiques I've received and I'm still learning.

Thank you Jennifer... I hope Mike will be my friend.. cause I am not sure if he can be friends with anyone here... Mike? Friends?

i choose my friends wisely.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Can you be my friend, Mike? Yes?

Mike, you will make my day if you can say that I am your friend!

Diana, don't sweat it..


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Okay, fair game, Mike..

Maybe Mike will be friends with me sometime in the future...

friends are earned, not chosen outright. its based on trust, if the trust is broken at some point, there is no friendship, possibly ever unless earned back again. you can decide which you are or are not.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I am not an advocate of allowing the earning back of friendship. Anyone that would do something to break the friendship, in my opinionion, is not capable of earning it back. In fact, it was never true in the first place. I have no problem with that person remaining an aquaintence...like 99.99 % of the people in my life.

If a friendship was fragile enough to broken, something will break it again in the future.

Wow... drama, on FAA. Who would have guessed...

Going back to the original post. It is easy for someone relatively new to get discouraged even if their work is excellent. A lot, maybe most, critique isn't objective. Even if it was, people still judge value in an image differently. Some for example focus completely on the technical, taking content and message as mere incidentals. Others might be the opposite. As has been said, a person needs to listen, but then decide for themselves.

I am using the discussion for material for the motivational and life posters I am doing...If its OK with Abbie, I will use that last one. perfectly said! Fragile friendships, broken once, will break again"

i'm fairly forgiving and it takes a bit to get me annoyed and i usually give a few warning shots. but a friend potential can end in an instant if they break my trust to a certain point. then there is no hoping to get it back. someone broke my trust once where i worked, and from that point on, they were dead to me. all eye contact gone, silent treatment, not a problem.

i have level of trust rings, that people stand on. i give everyone around 3 strikes or so. because people can have a bad day. if you break one ring you stand further back. it takes a lot of doing things to get back to the level your on. break it again and you go much further back. i re-evaluate now and then to see if they can be trusted again. but those that stab you in the back or try to change you in some way that your not, will never be a friend. that's how i see it. at work when people went from - your an angel. to your a devil and you should die, all because they learned of my belief system. most everyone took a few rings back, and a few fell off the virtual podium.

typically friendship is over rated. i think friends should do for each other and help each other out. there has to be a certain level of bonding trust. if there is none.. then nope.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

So, no one actually wants to talk about self assurance and critique then...

Stay confident my friends. ;)

Even if the message is objective it can be given in the wrong way.

Hence my how to critique thread under the help tab. It's an art unto itself

Yes Robert! With pleasure.

Would love to know if I have a rung lol but not going to ask and don't tell me.....

Well said HW. It is very easy to get discouraged. Just hang in there. For photographers, Study your photos, make sure horizons are straight (of course there are some intentionally not straight which can be okay too), check for sensor dust, clean up noise, look at other works on FAA, especially what is selling, etc. Carefully look at your images/art up close (this also helps give you an idea how large you can print your images). I'm not a painter/drawer, but make sure you have a good quality scanner and scan at your highest settings. There is no pattern that I've seen. I've only sold 1 print through FAA. But I've sold 2 FAA pillows, and 1 FAA totebag to local clients. You will find yourself asking if you're good enough. Instead of asking that, ask how you can improve and what can you do to help market your work. Marketing is a lot harder then doing the art itself. Keep in mind, you are competing with millions of other artists all over the world. I would rather someone be honest with me, then tell me my work is good, when they think it's horrible.

As for friendship, all I have to say is you shouldn't hold grudges. Life is short and gets shorter every day. We are not guaranteed Time. I learned a couple days ago that a really good friend of mine for the past 23 years took his own life. There were no signs. He left behind 2 beautiful young boys, a family, and a lot of friends who are asking why, could I have done something, could I have been a better friend, did I say something I shouldn't have...... You never know what people are going through. I try to live by "Treat others as you want them to treat you", even if they aren't nice back.

Break trust, I'm done. I've had former close friends realize that they really messed up and come whining around expecting me to pick up where we left off. Really? Are people that obtuse or do they just think I'm that stupid? My challenge in those cases has been giving them a civil response that leaves them no doubt that I'm done.

most people think all they have to do is say - i'm sorry and that's it. when that's just a phrase. it can't take back what was said in the past or past actions. they have to prove it forward on. i also evaluate how they are with other people, or what others have said about them.

many friends these days use the term very loosely. friends are their only for lunch or when they need money or a ride. facebook made the term totally hollow.

while some say if you don't have friends that's sad. i say, your better off without them, then with them if they are damaging you in some way. and for me its tit for tat. i want something out of the friendship, there should be a benefit. at work, all i wanted was intel. people never spoke to me (everyone was spanish and portuguese), i was the outsider. just information about what was going on was enough. in return i would do something for them. usually friendship is very one sided. usually formed by people who don't know how to use the word NO... i've taught so many how to use that word.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I wasn't talking about misunderstandings between friends, the kind of thing that happens in relationships all the time and can be forgiven. I'm talking about betrayals. In those cases "I'm sorry, can we please, please work this out" might make them feel better but by then they've revealed who they really are so it's an insult to suggest that I'd be stupid enough to allow them back in.

Jennifer, sorry to hear about your friend. That is sad. I agree with you on your advice to new photographers. I wish everyone would read that.

Mike, I only have two rungs, so you are pretty generous. On the other side of the coin, I have lost friends by not monitoring what comes out of my mouth.

i never really counted, its more like a ring around me. i can only keep track of so many people. but i usually evaluate people over a very long period of time. rather than a small amount. first impressions don't mean anything to me, because that first impression may not be at all accurate. usually people have a 3 strike system. then i reevaluate it again. because people do change over time.

as far as people liking me, it usually takes a year or so to get used to me.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Those who are true friends cannot be lost due to you being yourself. Over the past 2-3 decades thin skin is abundant and people takes things out of context / personally on a consistent basis. Political Correctness has a lot to do with that. I grew up speaking my mind, some times not very diplomatically, but always have called things as I see them. I was taught to take criticism and allow others to speak their mind w/o quick reaction.

Also that I would have more failures than successes, so be prepared for everything that comes. Personally I could care less if I'm liked or not. Trying to please everyone or ensure no feelings are hurt would wear me out. lol Life is too short and I'm gonna live it to the fullest! Those who know me, understand I would never do or say anything with malice and the rest well I truly don't care.

The Art industry is a dog eat dog world. Rejection is prevalent and self-doubt rampant. It's up to the artist how they choose to deal with it all; quit or move forward with determination no matter what they're told or if they're ever accepted as an "artist". I'm not a great artist, just barely a good one after some years, but that isn't stopping me to work hard to achieve that one day I will be very good. :)

Yanno I was told right out of High School in the late '70s that I'd never make it in the Motorcycle industry, mainly Harley's, because I was a woman in a man's world. I was determined; proved them all wrong, did very well (yes even as a mechanic!) and had built up a great reputation. So for me the Art industry is a walk in the park with my super thick skin. lol

~ Charly

Thank you Diana for your wise words of encouragement!

I especially loved what you said about advice: listen, but if it doesn't fit...don't wear it.

Our vision is our own.
Believing in...and being very clear on what that vision is...brings authenticity and joy to our work.

Godspeed ~

Thanks Patricia!