Start Over From Scratch

you first.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I'm not so sure, we dont have that much room to do anything different. Everything seems to be quite regimented. You can only edit so much on the AR and almost everything else does not count unless you are into socialising instead of sales.

I am learning as I go along soaking up as much information as I can but I find most of it to be quite vague, especislly the marketing aspect. I only hope I am doing everything right but only my sales figures will tell - only sold one so far so I aint doing that well. What would I change or do differently with the next 600 images that I have waiting to be uploaded - probably nothing? I still have a lot to learn in the realms of marketing. I am sure that my actions from now and untill they are all uploaded I will not do anything that is detrimental to my cause.

Do my keywords properly and add descriptions. I didn't and now have no time.

I look something up the other day on my site for reference. FOUR keywords total and none all that critical and all very broad.

I would have keyworded right from the git go.

I would second what Abbie just said.... I was just thinking the other day that I need to go through all of my images and redo some keywords/descriptions.

Better descriptions... I am awful at creating decent descriptions and pretty much just try to cover basic keywords. Now at almost 650 images I doubt I will every go back and edit.

Ditto. I was looking for one of my images the other day to put in a contest so I used the most obvious keyword to search for it in my gallery and that was the one keyword I left out. I know I have a lot of images like that....

Keywords, for sure. I kept thinking I'd go back at the end of each day and beef up the keywords on everything I'd uploaded.

"The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men" . . . and women. ;-)

I am gradually redoing my keywords but I don't have so many images that it's that big of a deal. Other than that there's really not much to do, maybe I would have done more with groups and contests and blogs from the start but you can start doing that anytime, it's not really something to "redo".

Agree with most everyone else I would keyword better from the beginning, I cringe now thinking about how some of my earlier images were uploaded with only one or two and some even zero keywords. Going back and beefing them up a little at a time when I have a free moment

Yup, same here...more keywords and better descriptions. I would also make sure everything was posted to social media like I do now. Many of my earlier images are not posted anywhere.

Definitely keywords, but I'd also spend more time looking at other work that resembles mine and see if it stacks up. I'd be more selective. You can always go back and weed out, but I'm finding that to be a monumental task.

We could do with our friendly bots automatically plucking and correcting what needs to be done, that would certainly keep them happy, lm just imagining them little workers now hungry for letters (words) lol!!

I would have taken art more seriously 20 years ago, rather than having just started last year.

Ditto on that, Joe.

Could definitely do with those Teresa LOL

Doing it different from scratch?

Well, I would hire a social-public-manager-ghostwriter at a low cost contract to take care of all the advizes floating over this forum how proper social marketing should be done. And of course I would chose/invent an avatar that female art-collectors fall in love with.

Key words and better or more descriptions seems to be the common issues here.

It is never too late to add key words of descriptions but it is a huge chore if you have a lot of images.

I would also keep one thing in mind. If you change the titles to add key words to the titles, that will destroy all of the old links that your have out there in cyberspace. I try never to do that unless there is a blatant mistake there somewhere.

I would have never gotten so carried away with so many galleries either.

I would have also, knowing what I know now, had a more organized plan on what I was going to advertise and not just how I was going to advertise it. I try to plan that our a little better now.

Lutz, I have actually been thinking of putting an ad up on the bulletin board at my local Jr. College to find a student to do my SM for me. lol

I am getting that lazy! Plus I bet the average high school student or JR college kid knows more about SM then I will every know! :-)

I have to agree with keywords, that is on my to do list and starting right from the first photo! In the last month or so I have been trying to keyword properly and in order of importance so I am doing better with the newer images but I have a lot of work ahead

Yup had to redo my keywords on all my artwork descriptions, need to flare up those searches in order to be found.

Floyd - What a great idea! I am spending way too much time on SM but who can say how much time is right?

Not think and edit too much. Received an inquiry about trolley pics. Have tons on a hard drive somewhere. Organize better and upload simple but quality images without being too fancy. I haven't a clue where all the original files are.

I did most of it right from the start. I also go through and update and organize from time to time. Sure there were some low priority images that didn't get the best job on keywords and descriptions, but eventually I go over everything. A habit that started long before I joined here. My slides are all labeled going back to 1996. And everything is in order. In fact labeling and ordering everything here is a snap compared to what I used to do. I have my keyword lists for all my stock photo images, so I was off to a good start when I started. I think there is a five word minimum at my stock site, but over the years I beefed it up. They also have a researched out optimum description length for Google which I rarely hit.

If anything I would get outside help on my bio and photo. Which I still need to do.

For new people I would say don't skip keywords or descriptions. Treat each upload as the most important one. If you can't be bothered doing it right it may be better not to do it. Because you generally only get the new advantage once. Make the most of it. And keep the image view in the order you want. Not just the default order because its easy. It pays off when you get multiple sales on one customer order like I get regularly.

Here is my checklist: http://fineartamerica.com/showmessages.php?messageid=2567813

Oh and what is SM? If I don't know I doubt many others do so if you can't say what you mean why bother? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM

Social Media

Not bother even attempting to commercialize my art. Seriously.

.......not put so much blame for my lack of sales on my wife......and kids..and their kids and my dog and cat and Wednesday......and you and him and her and them and this and that but mostly Wednesdays.......

SM is social media

Wow, this is a cool thread...can't wait to read responses.


I would probably stop writing on discussion forums, but it so happens that I'm a social person who can't help herself...shame shame.

I would stop panicking about stupid stuff. The details will work themselves out in time. I'm here to become a better artist and I have become a better artist.

Oh and I almost forgot! Don't delete your images! You can edit them and choose better ones! If you delete your images, google still has them, AND I cannot tell you how many phone calls requesting the images I deleted because I thought the photograph or painting wasn't good enough. Don't delete, just edit your images when you want to weed out. Nothing is perfect, but if people can't get to your work from google, you're in big trouble with print sales.

Also, once your ratings with google are bad, you'll have to climb out of that bad reputation, I almost want to change my art name to Marie-Claire Kaiser to end my bad reputation of folks not being able to get to my site due to so many deletes...BUT I'm still deleting a lot so I can't even learn my own lesson I'm trying to teach. Don't delete.

Here on FAA, still not sure what the true key is to sales: Key words, Descriptions, building social media.......have been working on all of them, but haven't seen a big surge in sales. I still am not sure of everything I can do here. I keep looking around on the site to see if I need to discover something else to do. I haven't been a member long, but I would say putting more time in posting new images and being recognized in groups might be helpful.

Actually pretty satisfied with how I went about things here...I snooped and read pages and pages of posts in the forums long before participating, asked for critiques pretty early on in RAW CRITIQUE Group, tried to learn from that at the same time was learning about software editing...which I did NOT know about when I started, learned that here. It was a bumpy trip self teaching on the software, still do not know how to utilize all of that my programs can do but I certainly know more than I started.

I joined faa just a few months before my 70 yr old mom had 3 way bypass surgery. A good part of 2013, she was back and forth to the hospital...75 days over four trips, first for the surgery (30 days in ICU) then another for fluid on her lungs (sent back from nursing/home per my request because the nurse didn't 'hear' any fluid but there was fluid) then two more trips later in an ambulance from the house. Not a fun year for either of us, we live together and unfortunately her health is really not that great now either. Visits to the kidney doctor have been added to the to do list as it seems she is one step away from potential dialysis, seriously I hope we can avoid that but? I am now pretty much a 'caretaker' way way sooner than I would have expected and that was not something I ever wanted to do, even though I love her...there's a reason I never wanted to be a nurse. SO... the forums and online 'friends' and mentors I've met here the last two years were and still are a huge mental distraction and life saver for me. Thanks for that, btw! lol

Sorry for the TMI, as to what to do different art/photo wise, maybe take more advanced photography classes? Finished my degree in Commercial Art and Advertising 30 yrs ago? More dance classes? Maybe not though, the accumulation of other life experiences have made me who I am today and I'm okay with that, mostly! Actually more dancing, I wish I had that..and I mean dancing with a partner, I love that connection of two moving as one on a dance floor, which is an art.

I'm glad you gave us too much TMI. Melissa, that is interesting and what a great daughter you are to your mom!!

Thanks for sharing and it was easy reading and I couldn't wait to get to the end of your story to see what you had learned. But I'm learning from you. Your story is about giving. That's so important.

thanks Lisa, it really was too much! lol!

I have no struggle with keywords or descriptions. I went to my sister to edit stuff. I really went fast and furious to add up
followers etc on SM. I added 20 extremely well thought out academic works. I then added 76 commercial works in just slightly over
a year total. I feel made for this. Highly organized for this. Not everyone is.

I would have gone to bed a bit earlier with a lot more consistency.

I have put up my art for discussion. I get really tough on folks who respond in more critical ways. I have not been
nice enough, kind enough or understanding enough of fellow posters here. I am not saying I am turning over a new leaf.
Talk would just be cheap. But on this journey I am getting to know myself better than I have in all my life. So I am seeing
the errors of my ways.

I have to say to the people who help or criticize I hear them loudly and clearly. I learn and train my eye each time. I get a good bit out of it.

Over the last 4 months I have come to see many artists here for the talents they truly possess. Many folks here are exceptionally good/great artists.

Dave

I wouldn't waste my time arguing with posers.

LOL JL

Dave

Kind of off topic...but regarding social media and the hiring of high school or college kids to do it....I would not be so quick to think they can do it any better than you. You need life experience and a business sense to do effective social marketing. You have to be consistent and the person needs to be reliable. And you have to have some computer savy. I do not think young people today (for the most part) have any of those necessary quailities. Just my 2 cents

Agreed, David.
These discussions have and continue to teach me so much about not just the art world in general, but in also how best to represent my own efforts.
I owe the people around here a big thank you for their contributions and patience.

Thank you.

i can't think of a single thing i would do differently. it took me a month and change of near constant uploading to get the original 1200 files here. partly it took a while because i had to lift the stories and such from another site. i suppose the only thing i changed midway is to put my description into the ITPC. so now i can do it on any site with ease. if that was inserted it wouldn't have taken as long as it did.

not much more than that, because i can always go back and add words or descriptions. i suppose if i knew then what i know now, i would have cleaned the images more before i sent it. i still have some that aren't printable. but either don't feel like editing them, or will just get to it at some point.

each place i send things too i tweak what i do, so when i got here, there wasn't a whole lot i needed to do, or anything i would do differently.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

i agree with robert, you can't buy social media people, nor should you hire anyone. its easy to get followers because many will follow back, if they are into that. but they may not be your buyers. but finding followers that may become buyers is the hard part.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

i have found in my golf game , business and in life generally, you need to find what works and then formulate a routine that is repeatable so you replicate auto atcly... back on topic... im still finding what will work and correct my 3 months of mistakes every day

The problem is, how do you decide how long to give a plan or activity to start working before you decide it doesn't work?

DK,

I agree with that, but to develop that line of thinking, you can be more targeted if you have a sense of who will buy your art.
Then you leave all the followers in place on SM as your integrity that when a truly interested client looks you up they see
your SM profiles and followers. So no follower is wasted.

None of us have the golden touch. We do not make art one moment and it sells the next. Broad based marketing aims for the masses.
People buy artworks one wall at a time.

Dave

you try many experiments at once. see which ones catch. its no different than fishing. you have an area, set the hooks out, different bait. nothing happened, try a new bait, nothing. try it at different times of the day, in different spots, try dynamite in the water.

there may be no fish in that lake, so you move on to another lake.

like right now i'm doing a new style, colorized photos. they are different than my normal stock because these are live places, but other people have them. using my own style, what topics will sell best? i have no idea. so i make a number of different subjects and keep making them to see what things may work best. i'll make more if they work well.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

think of it like this: your a singer. you manage to create 4 albums, but only a select few know who you are. all you need is one good song or video and people will take notice who you are. suddenly everyone knows who you are and loves you. but it often a takes more than one song to make you famous. but if they like your current work, they might like your past work. but without trying the new things you may never be seen.

i like using PSY as an example. most of his songs are kind of terrible. slow and a bit agonizing. then he made that gangnam style, and you still see people today galloping around, he became an overnight sensation. now i kind of wonder what he would be like if he started with that song first, maybe he would be the next michael jackson. hard to say.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"you try many experiments at once. see which ones catch. its no different than fishing"

Except there's no way of knowing where your sales come from on FAA, so if you are doing multiple things and get a sale you don't know what thing you were doing caused that sale.

I could not disagree with you guys more.

There are kids in these schools that have already forgotten more about Social Media then all of us combined know.

You don't hire people and turn them loose. You hire them and you train them to do what you want done in the manner in which you want it done. And you get the right person by interviewing until you find the right person. Social Media is a whole lot more than just getting the right followers and it is something that can be taught.

You have to find people that know how to use Social Media and then train them how you want them to apply those skills to your benefit.

Mike, how many people have you ever hired? How many employees have you ever had?

As for never hiring anyone? That is just nonsense. Anyone that aspires to a decent lever of success is going to have to have hire people to get there sooner or later.

I have been hiring college kids for years to free myself to do the things that need to be done that only I can do, or the things I want to do. In this case it would free you to make more art and make more uploads. That is going to net more sales, more money.

Go to my profile and look for the blogs and read the articles on advertising and specifically the one Understanding Advertising and Why You Simply Can Not Do It All

http://fineartamerica.com/blogs/understanding-advertising-and-why-you-simply-can-not-do-it-all.html

To figure out how long you stick with a program you have to start with good planning and that starts with knowing where you have been and knowing where you want to go, having specific goals on and having some concept on how to get there.

Is it about goals or is it about systems?

"Except there's no way of knowing where your sales come from on FAA, so if you are doing multiple things and get a sale you don't know what thing you were doing caused that sale. "

This is why you do not launch several adverting plans at once unless they are connected in some way. Of course that really makes them the same plan.

The biggest problem I see on FAA is there is a basic lack of understanding of what and how advertising is and how to use it. And the entrenched denial that it works or one needs to understand it.

I am not sure what you mean by systems but I do know that one needs to set goals.

You can't just say my goal is to get rich or make money. You need specific goals.

When I made my first upload on FAA I had a specific goal I wanted to achieve within the first year.

It was to have x amount of uploads and x amount of sales. I had previous online selling experience so I used that history to base those goals on.

I failed by 50%. But I was not discouraged in the least bit. Why? Because FAA was totally new and it was no likely that I was going to reach those goals. And I learned things that I could not possibly have taken in to consideration in the beginning. The keyword his is "learned". But I did not wait the entire year to reset my goals. It only took me about six months to see that I was going to fall significantly short.

Scott Adams explains the difference between systems and goals quite well here;

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102964992706/goals-vs-systems

Systems makes more sense to me than goals. The challenge is acquiring the knowledge necessary to develop an effective system.

Lisa K! Iove that whole post but this is special...

"so I can't even learn my own lesson I'm trying to teach."

We are all in that same boat! lol

I also like the do not delete and that you can edit.

I would also mention that if you edit the title, that will break all of those links out there.

David K., to me this is one of those articles that has basically taken tried and proven "systems" or ideas and use new terms to describe them. Not saying there is anything wrong with it.

To answer the question you originally asked, the goal would be ten sales a month... the "system" would be the business plan that would include the marketing and advertising plan that you use to reach it.

I forgot to add a response to this statement: "The challenge is acquiring the knowledge necessary to develop an effective system.'

That is why I keep saying take two classes form your local JR College. Salesmanship and Marketing... an not they are NOT the same thing.

Floyd,

Great response about hiring a student, college or high school, or even just a 20 year old never mind school.

I go to a local donut store. Next door the donut shop owner rented out a space to a baseball card store.
The baseball store owner has two 20 years who are dead broke working on commission. No pay. They love him anyway.
I think they get 10% per sale. They use his Ebay account and run with it.

The baseball card store owner is making far more than the donut store owner. The cards shop owner is waiting for his lease to end,
he wants bigger digs.

One of the 20 year olds has become a friend of mine. He is so broke he is working as counter help now in the donut store. No car he
can not get a better job at Starbucks. He is a great kid, he pays his rent each month just barely.

Dave

I'm not a salesman Floyd, and never will be, apparently I was born with the anti-marketing gene. If that means I never sell any art then I guess that's just the way it is.

I think you missed the main point of "systems vs goals". It's summed up quite well by Scott with this paragraph.

"My problem with goals is that they are limiting. Granted, if you focus on one particular goal, your odds of achieving it are better than if you have no goal. But you also miss out on opportunities that might have been far better than your goal."

DK,

I have to admit I did not read the article and I dont want to get into goals or systems. I just make my presence on SM and elsewhere try to work for me.
I use one to be seen more. And the other methods to try and target. So I guess I have a system and my goal is sales and wide open.

All that said the quote you just showed us is a horoscope type of quote. It sounds good, but means next to nothing. It can be applied in every situation
just like a horoscope.

Dave

I would keyword better. In the beginning I used phrases instead of words,which showed my ignorance. When I researched ELK, (and other keywords for wildlife, etc.to see what poped up on the generic terms) it was interesting the images that show up that seem to have nothing to do with the search keyword. Does that provide that image and 'edge' to being seen? I wouldn't have the patience to wade through pages of images that don't have anything to do with the keyword if I was a buyer. So I'm now keywording better I think (and correcting previous images) but still fall behind images that are improperly keyworded. (I also came across someone's image that had many, many more than 500 characters on their keywording and not sure how that was allowed.) And I also joined groups and didn't interact or participate. Lots of regrets that I am slowly correcting. Ignorance is not bliss, just ignorance.

DB, I disagree, I think that quote is chock full of substance, unlike a horoscope. It does sound like you are taking a systems approach though.

David K.,

I think I am saying I simply do not agree with everything that guy is saying. He is taking something that is really very simple and making it twice as complicated as it really needs to be. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

That is why I keep saying to take a class.

Any good instructor will set out the goals and the "system" or method of how the is going to reach that goal on the first day. That goal is not going to be to turn you into a super salesman. He is going to teach you about selling from both the buyer’s perspective and the sellers' perspective. He is going to teach you the fundamentals, the basics on which everything else is built on.

Right now I see people floundering all around and reading all kinds of stuff and ideas and opinions and they are all over the place.

Someone used the golf analogy.

You can go all over the web and get all kinds of information on how to play golf. But if you lack a basic understanding of the game, the rules of the game, the fundamentals and lack a sound foundation on things like the grip, the swing, the use of each club, you are never going to be a decent golfer.

Same thing in selling and advertising. Some people here are listening to and reading everyone and have no foundation or understanding of the fundamentals that a good instructor will give you to better understand and evaluate and apply (or not to apply) all of that stuff they are reading.

No one has ever said anyone has to be a super-salesman or eve a good salesman. But why in the world wouldn’t a person want to at least gain the basic knowledge of selling, advertising and marketing if he/she is trying to sell a product, any product?

""My problem with goals is that they are limiting. Granted, if you focus on one particular goal, your odds of achieving it are better than if you have no goal. But you also miss out on opportunities that might have been far better than your goal." "

This the kind of stuff I am talking about. These things go without saying and if you have a basic understanding of how a good business plan works, and you have one, those "limitations" simply can not happen.

Floyd, I think you are still missing Scott's main point, but that's okay, I'm not interesting in beating that to death.

Not everybody is capable of being a salesman or marketer or whatever you want to call it, (and is why I've largely been a failure in our modern culture) I have to try another way, if it doesn't work then it doesn't work and art will forever remain a hobby for me. There are worse fates.

you don't need to know where they are, only that they are buying a certain theme.

do realize floyd - pushing your work - work that is already well known (ansel adams the rest), is far more easier than pushing the work you actually made. so hiring random people to find you random people, to sell work that already has a name to it - is by far so much easier than pushing your own brand.

people have heard of coca cola, so all you have to do is tell them you have that soda and if they were looking for that, and you sent out people talking about your soda, people will buy from you. however if your selling your own brand - Roast-a-Cola (roast beef flavored soda) - i'm certain you would have a much harder time despite all the teens you hired.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Mike Savad

ITPC?

Italian Travel Promotion Council?
Indonesian Trade Promotion Center?
Irish Tractor Pulling Committee?
Iraqi Telecommunications and Post Company?
International Tamoxifen Pharmacogenomics Consortium?

Good discussion, I would have to say also understanding the keywords and photo description. It seemed like a nightmare and now I go back and reset the keywords, but then I am retired from my chef's career and I in between being in the movies and TV I do work on my keywords...most importantly market my own work, I have images worthy of sales just do not work harder promoting them...... And then if I had to do it over again, I would be nicer than I am currently and not bite my lip as much....lol, lol, lol That is it.


Cheers, Michael Hoard Principal Actor, Artist, Photographer and Writer.

@greg if you use photoshop and hold ctrl shift alt I - you can enter that mode. its probably none of those acronyms if got it right anyway... and it allows you to fill in your title, copyright, description, tags, and any other data you want to include. when i upload that info is already filled in. plus i can at least copy it out when going to other sites. this way i don't have to rely on it being there in another site, all the info is contained in the image itself.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

i got it backwards
IPTC (International Press Telecommunications Council) but i did get the letters right.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

In over 40 years of selling my own images using basic advertising and understanding selling stands on it own Mike.

As usual, you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

If you want to talk about public domain images, let's talk about YOU selling public domain images and putting your own name on them. You are hardly in any position to suggest you are taking the high road.

It simply does not matter what you are selling.

The fact of the matter is, anything can be sold using standard advertising and marketing practices Anything. My images, public domain images, your images, their images anyone's images. And it is going on all day long all over the the net and all over the streets.

Anyone that would suggest that is not the case is simply in denial or simply has some other agenda.

But let's get back to talking about public domain images that Mike seems to think are as easy to sell as falling of a log.

I sold a medium to large PD image today and I just went to the search and there was several people selling that same image, some for more money and some for less.

How many of you selling your own images have a dozen or more other people selling that exact same images?

I sold that image because it is one of the images that I advertise the hell out of. There are not only dozen people selling that image on FAA but there are hundreds of others selling it on the net.

Mike has a lot of problem with me any anyone else, selling public domain images and is constantly using that to discredit what I say about advertising for reason I will never understand beyond just plain lack of understanding of how advertising works.

this is not about taking a higher road.

your selling name brand products using name brands to attract attention to yourself. where as us - the ones that make art (And no this is not a pot shot at you), don't have the same weight as chagall, or rembrandt, ansel and the others. so simply telling people to do this and that is not going to help unless you can prove that your methods can sell your own "Art" without the help of famous names. and i do know what i'm talking about.

the images i have that are PD - are colorized, i added my own creative input and can copyright those images as my own if i wanted too. i don't simply buy work and sell it as is. but that's not what i'm saying here.

why you feel you have to put other people down to make yourself look "better" is beyond me.

and yes it does matter what your selling. very much so. the difference is - people know the product your selling. you don't have to do the leg work adverting the brand. the brand is already known. every time you chime in here you state you sold a specific artists work, but hardly ever your own. they saw a name brand they recogized and because you were there you got the sale. and that is fantastic. but... if your only selling your own work, you have to do that leg work and that's far harder, especially when you creating new work all the time.

there should be no one at all selling my exact image. that's why i change them.


i just don't understand why you think i'm attacking you or what you do or sell - when i'm not all. i just have to point out that your not really selling your own art per say... but your speaking to an audience who is trying to do that very thing.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

its kind of annoying to think that anything i say that goes against your grain is automatically an attack.

EDIT

sure just close the thread with the last word insulting me... but i can say that without a doubt that i sold way more of my OWN work over your own, even in all 40-100 years of your experience.

putting me down shows that you either "don't get it" or your making this all up.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

" every time you chime in here you state you sold a specific artists work, but hardly ever your own.'

No Mike, I have NEVER stated a specific artist's work that I have sold on FAA. Not even my own. So maybe the fact that you continue to make those kind of false statement is why I feel you go on the attack. Not to mention the time you said that me and all other people that sell public domain images were "part of the problem here".

And maybe it is because you keep making false comments about how much of my own art I am selling when you have no idea what I am selling.

I deliberately do not mention specifics of what I am selling because it simply does not matter!! That's the point! Would you be suggesting I am trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and hide the fact that I have a mixed gallery of PD and my own work when all they have to do is click on the avatar?

Apply basic advertising and marketing and you can sell anything if you do it right.

I suggested I was thinking of hieing a college kid and your respond with "you can't buy social media people, nor should you hire anyone."

"telling people to do this and that is not going to help unless you can prove that your methods can sell your own "Art" without the help of famous names. and i do know what i'm talking about."

How much more clearer can it be that you don't get it?

I don't have to prove that the standard methods of advertising and marketing work. If they did not work, then it would not be a $467 Billion a year industry!

And I am not telling people to do this or do that much beyond going to school or get professional guidance. Something you think is not necessary and you scoff at every time I mention it.

And how often do I say, "read everyone and trust no one and make your own decisions"? Does that sound like I am telling people what to do?

I have had enough of Mike's nonsense.

I am sure that it comes to no surprise to anyone Mike and I do not agree on things. I simply feel he lacks the skills and knowledge in the selling and marketing area due to his limited experience.

Thank you to all that participated.