If You Knew

Ah, a question I have often asked my artist sons. Personally I don't believe I could do a thing that I disliked, over and over and over. Heck, I had problems (mentally) doing three versions of one painting. I don't think I need to worry about riches from my girls paintings.

I have come to find that the pursuit of happiness requires more than just the pursuit of money.

"if you created something such as cats"

Cats? Is that a typo?


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Dan, no just an example, if you would like to substitute snail intestines in place of cats feel free.

How long do I have to do it? LOL I changed diapers for a year and wiped a butt for a few more....Cats...yeah I can do cats for awhile. ;) If I don't get to be rich and famous till I am old...no. But I can suffer for a little while...ha ha

A friend of mine, Valoy Eaton, his wife tried to talk him into painting flowers, he said he didn't want to be known as the guy who paints flowers, turns out that's what put him on the map, after that he earned a comfortable living as an artist!

TL Mair
http://tlmair.com

Well for your own sake and the sake of your family if you have one or plan on having one, I hope you do it for the money if not for the fame.

Money is really nice to have if you should need to buy your kid an education or an organ transplant.

How much them organs going for anyhow?

I hear livers are expensive!

Dan, I used to use Big Eyed Kitties as an example to my boys. Nope, no, never. For one once you get famous for Big Eyed Kitties you can never do anything else or taken seriously if you try.

I bet they are! I can't afford to be sick or dead!

Sharon that's funny! Yes I would...rich and famous? Why not...then you can paint what you want :)

Kevin that is the trap many get stuck in, once you are known for one thing it becomes difficult to break out of the mold. In my case I might want to do something for fame and fortune but have never been good at doing anything I don't like.

Yes, I would but as soon I became rich and famous I would go back to create the things I really wanted and called the cats as my" cat period".

as long as it supported (financially) what I really wanted to do, sure.

New rule, you would have to continue to create this thing to remain rich and famous. In other words it is not a part time gig or something you do for a short while and then get to do whatever you wish.

I'm a pretty frugal guy, once I'm rich I think I can stay rich without more income. You can keep the fame though.

Sure I'd do it and then subcontract "the thing" out to a look alike employee and create a new identity and a new thing. Or franchise it.

Oh you changed the rules...like paint cats or whatever we hated forever?

Ron kind of begs the question do some artists make art that is so valuable to the world that they do not need to be paid at all?

I think van Gogh is the only example that. I will pass.

New rule as a creative I would easily carry on. Not all artists all the way through their careers make art that everyone agrees is master piece after
master piece. No one here is Picasso. And most of the artists here do not see Picasso as constantly putting out master pieces.
Even in Rembrandt's day after he made his fortune, and he went out of style.

Dave

A great discussion in reverse against the stupid academic decree that any serious artist must have a "consistant body of work" to be accfptable in art shows, galleries or exhibitions on line.

Fame requires recognition, and recognition requires repetition.

My friend Tara worked for hallmark cards and specialized in drawing cartoon rabbits. After a few years of drawing the same rabbit, she hated it and quit.

Stephen,

I looked at moving to a marketing job last week at a reputable international art supply corporation.

I decided after a really great heart to heart with a friend of mine who is an extremely knowledgeable business
woman not to try marketing. So many young folks know all this stuff.

But strategically it would take me much of a year to get up and running on how to sell their product further afield.
I bet six months in there would be a conversation where my supervisor said I was getting nowhere. I then responded this
is how I can get somewhere going forward. He/she then said too late the higher ups see no progress you are out.
Next guy to get my job would get my strategy if I had a good one and they would go from there without me. Odds are.

Every product needs its own organized strategy.

Dave

i will hire a team of assistants to do the dirty works when they finished I will sign them which will give me more time to create what I like.

Hey Dave welcome back!

Repetition of what Burgess?

I would photograph everything, if it makes me rich and famous, EXCEPT BABIES! 😎

Ron,

I discovered something, when banned you can edit your posts still.

But I decided to let old dogs lie.

I had a good relaxing time. I needed some time off. I spent much of today at Starbucks.

I decided what I do with my art matters only to me. So I will treat it that way. It is uninteresting to hear
artists opinions on my art...for me that is. It always gets into nonsense about who has the better art.

I dont believe in competition.

Dave

EXCEPT BABIES?

WHAT ABOUT PUPPY DOGS?

Dave

Repetition in regards to consistency, Vincent.

Where I agree with your sentiment, I can see why that "decree" is suggested for a successful career.

"WHAT ABOUT PUPPY DOGS? "

... ok ... puh ... I need the money ...

Dave, I partially agree with you on the opinions of others. There comes a time where you just need to trust in yourself and your own vision. There are a few who I pay attention to however. I understand where you are coming from thinking other artist just want to tear one's work apart as a type of competition. I don't feel that has to be the case. I have many artist friends who are gifted in many areas far more than I but we seem to pull for one another. Competition? Not so much as we are all different people expressing ourselfs in various ways. There are many ponds out there!

Ron,

I have people in my life I can get good opinions from much of the time.

Online the most vocal people can be the least trusted at times. As in real life. Just experience talking now.

Dave

Well, you are right also from the standpoint that most of these people, myself included, only exist from the internet. For example even though I claim to be a 5'x7" 57 year old suburban dude you don't really know if that's me. I could be 6'5" 25 year old football player! Always take what you hear online with a grain of salt.

That avatar makes me look a lot better than I do. But dont tell anyone else here.

Dave

Our secret!

Odd that I put most of my trust in who is who based on the concept that most people are too busy and tierd to make stuff up. Course as you know every once in a while there has been someone doing just that.

Ron,

My agenda does not fall into line with anyone else's. So why put it out there? I dont want or need anyone else's agenda.
I wish all of them the best of luck with sales etc.

People need a better separation. I need a better separation. They are not making things up at all. Just not useful stuff for any of us.

Your threads are academic questions. I like that. It is theoretical stuff, some could argue made up. I do not think any of it is.

Dave

No, that is part why I am struggling, sometimes I wish I caved in but for the most part I am glad I stick to my guns and am a happier painter doing it from my mind one idea to another with occasional commissions that I want to do if they agree to my thought process. Galleries would say do more doggies or whatever and I would refuse . I am struggling so bad sticking to my ideas though it makes me wonder if I would be more comfortable caving in and DON"T want to ,keep in mind I support my whole family including my disabled husband. I don't know why I don't sell more. I sell soso but in my eyes it could be better, well I guess everyone would say that for themselves also lol

I am lucky in some ways in that I make my money by teaching art. Unless I am in reality a massive, powerful football player!

Leah,

Experiment. Do not cave in at all. Artists do different things. Go back and forth from your concept to something you think is all commercial.
Not an either or. Grow. Do not do a purely commercial painting mind you. But something totally different to find more ways to sell.
You are very talented that talent will show through your new concepts well.

I started in art school as an adult student by accident. All the lessons were new to me. I went to the professor a man like Ron theorizing about
art on my first day. I demanded I get an A. I had never done that to professor before. He laughed. We became very good friends as student and teacher.
He put me through my paces and I got A's and one A plus having him for several classes.

Being put through the paces I could not have a loyalty to just one style or concept.

My thought....grow, dont change who you are. Add to what you do. Schedule for it.

I wish you well.

Dave

My suggestion of consistent body of work would be 'quality". But show judges have always wanted everything to look like a brand or similar like in Ronald's work which all looks pretty much the same to me in terms of color and form. This is a big mistake and many show artists are protesting by banning shows who's judges are in this theme of thinking.

Looking at art history there is little from each famous artist that is consistent except originality.

Vincent,

I have come to know a Gallery owner in my neck of the woods. I visitor her once a month to see what she has up.
I entered her juried show. I was not a finalist. Which is okay. I did not like a single thing that was part of the final show to be
juried. Not a thing. That is okay as well. I am far too critical.

After the show was finalized, I asked my gallery owner friend about the show. One of her comments she made and meant as a principle
of how show outcomes come about. She said being in a show is a crapshoot, nothing more. She really wanted me to see that. She
is in her early seventies. She has more experience in the arts than 90% plus of us. She is an artist. She is a professor currently teaching art.

A crapshoot. That comment told me quality is not really at the heart of the matter.

Dave

Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

Vincent, hardly a mistake and not hurting me in any way, I am doing fine. My style or approach has never been a calculated thing just grew this way. Posting some older work in a second. Doll picture from early 80's, other from Early 90's. Things change.

Interesting and thought out advice David, I actually try new concepts of my own all the time and test them Hence Light Headed lol I like what you said and working on a project where my husband comes up the the titles which are really good especially since he has a major brain injury and I am painting them , first is harvester of souls which is done and up here already, Nightmare Circus is his latest title and I am working on it , the work in progress is up here. I am doing this for something different and it is great to involve my husband and challenging me :)

One of the things about jurying a large show is just how overwhelmed the judge or judges get. All the work becomes a blur after a while, most of the times the jurors have a score sheet but as time goes on exhaustion sets in. Some luck is involved as to where in the line up your work is seen. There is also the political side if there is more than one judge. One judge may love a work where as another loves an entirely different work. This can cause an impasse unless there are three judges then it often comes down to two judges working together to get their favorites prizes over the third judge. Shows are very much a crapshoot as Dave said!

This reminds me of my son's schooling. He went to film school. The day he signed up, they slammed the door on mom (me) the one paying the bill. They informed me that he had a lot of reality that wasn't going to be easy on him. And they were right.

The passion it takes to succeed in art is too much at times, but artists alone, are probably the only ones that can understand such a question like this. Most are probably willing to do only so much.

Leah,

You are making your own form of surrealism. You are very talented. But you are very unsure of where that leads commercially. I hear you and understand that.
The concepts are far flung, yes you do extreme experiments. Yes. With surrealism and humor in the mix.

What would happen if once per month you worked on an extremely detailed landscape? No surrealism no humor.

I am not trained to paint. I can draw extremely well. I am doing my own thing. So lets set that aside.

If you completed twelve terrific landscapes over the next year would they sell like hot cakes? Buildings possibly included if you live in an area where
perhaps you took a photo to paint of a landmark that would sell. I do not know your part of the country. Landmarks, farms, mountains, winter scenes in such and such a town. You would choose the theme(s) carefully to sell.

Seeing your work, I have a lot of faith in you. If you do this do not sell the originals to any of your friends. Go for more money this time. Either know of a gallery to use a year from now that can sell them. Or put them here with proper keywords to see what happens. In this endeavor see if you can market to people you do not yet know.

This requires studying why a small to larger group of people would want a particular form of art before you begin.
You can only gain a lot of insight from such an exercise.

If you were writing a novel, you would only get published by a major publisher if they felt people would read your work. And in larger numbers.
You need to think of what people want to hang on their walls. Is that caving in? In my training we discussed not only that, but how they would
want it hung. Where the picture hook should be on the wall. I do not think I caved in, I enjoyed learning about that as an aspect of making art.
How it is viewed is critical. And that begins a whole other topic that is much lengthier.

Dave

"All the work becomes a blur after a while, most of the times the jurors have a score sheet but as time goes on exhaustion sets in."

This is where it becomes important to create things that stand apart from the pack.
Something that's impossible to get lost in the blur.

If you're painting cats, I'd imagine it could easily become just another cat painting.
But if you're painting ankles...mmmmm

Sorry. Wrong thread...

Joe,

Everyone in the show I was discussing were doing really different things based on past art theory.
Nothing new just completely different. And frankly when the theories were actually invented way back when,
but after WW II, well those original artists did better work. JMO

What won was actually the worst of the finalists as I see it. But I am far too critical.

It is a crapshoot. Quality is not involved.

I have to add something my gallery owner friend was very close to saying, when a gallery sponsors a juried call who enters is even
more of a crapshoot.

My theory is new. No digital artist made the final juried show. Like I said only well worn post WW II concepts were in the final juried show.

When I joined FAA at that time some folks were discussing why have fine art on a site for decor. I wish what was in that final juried show was up
to the standards of being just decor like some people sell here. That would have been a major improvement. Post WW II art is completely disposable.

Dave

Name one person that applies to.

If you're asking if people do a job they hate just for a paycheck, then welcome to America.

Absolutely not. You can't put a price on happiness, and art is one of the very few things in this world that makes me happy. Better to be alive and poor than dead with a big inheritance to pass on.

Now, if I only had to sell ONE, I am ALL over this!

I used to think being alive, but poor was the problem.

Boy was I wrong.

Being happy and poor is the solution. But making money and being happy is a worthy goal.

What am I saying?

Dave

Ron,
My statement about your presented work looking the same is meant looking similar in a superficial manner. At first glance it looks similar. Not done by anyone else for sure!

Each work has it's own personality and compliment of character. So your evolution as an artist resulted in this unique and recognizable imagery ........not unlike the recognizable individual style of most famous artists have achieved I believe.

One measure of success as an artist has been the number of imitators or followers by other artists.

America's most successful artist (can't think of his name)has been recently criticized as a fraud and not worth the millions he's been getting due to lack of imitators it has been said. Then there is the possibility that if one were multidimensional in style and form they as artist's would be in-imitatale right?

i painted a cat once - and half times...

Repetition i think, has never been my strong suit or desire in either imagery, style or medium...

Sure the money might be good, but i probably wouldn't show up for work.

I had a chance to work as an illustrator for the animation department at Hallmark Cards. Potential employees of Hallmark had to be judged by how accurately they could copy the style of the leading cartoonist. I tried but failed. The artist had one stroke thick and thin lines. Could not do it.

Several artists I knew told me it was a slave factory. Engravers however do well since the company publishes metal objects and coins at a mint. Once retired from Hallmark some artists made it really big as the company always backed their former employees.

Even if it weren't for the money, I would paint anything, any time, for how ever long. Certainly whatever the subject, they would need to be different. Otherwise they could just be printed over and over forever.

Hallmark does animation? Cartoon-like animation? I didn't know that. Would I recognize any of it?

Hallmark had a big cartoon card division. It was the most successful card division they had. It is called "Shoebox".

Had? Do they still?

I remember going on a tour of the Kansas City Hallmark, it was both impressive and nauseating to me at the same time. One of the reasons I avoided going into commercial art were the cubicles the artist worked in, I could not see myself doing that.

Cubicle??? Horror...

My father was rightfully worried about how I would make a living in art and took me to where he worked. He was an aeronautical engineer and took me to the commercial art section of the Naval base. Once again cubicles, his intent was to motivate me but it actually had the opposite effect.

"Cubicle??? Horror..."

Yes, it is a horror but I gotta pay the rent.

I know Shoebox cards, but how can a still be animation? Now I'm confuzzled.

David King, paying the rent is the issue and some can handle the commercial art scene. I choose teaching but some find the thought of that to be horrible! I have several friends who are very gifted artist, who paint houses for a living.

I agree, making commercial art in a cubicle farm wouldn't be much less miserable than what I do now, but at least I'd be developing some serious technical art skills and learning the business. There are many very successful fine artists that "paid their dues" with a commercial art career first, basically their commercial art career was schooling for their fine art career.

My late mother was a commercial artist.

I grew up with her studio at home and she did free lance work in between big company jobs as an employee where she designed ice cream cartons, and packages, etc. She worked in New York on 5th Ave. and in south Florida as a freelance card designer and for a big gossip news paper. She made a very good living as an interior layout designer for architects also. I have most if not all of her original hand painted card designs.

David King that is true, I have a friend who spent 20 plus years working as a commercial artist. Quit went back to school and got his MFA degree. These days he teaches part time and paints houses. Interestingly enough he has no regrets and feels his time back at college was well worth it.

Ronald,

In terms of craft alone would you consider yourself having peaked and if so at what stage in your career?

Vincent, not really I am still learning. I feel my work is still improving. Back in 2010 I went to the 10-10-10 show which was the reopening of the Crocker Museum in Sacramento. There was a Thiebaud retrospective going on. What impressed me about his art was not the work which he did ten or twenty years ago but the work which he had just done in the last year. He was 90 I think. If an artist of Thiebaud's caliber continues to improve, technically , formally and conceptually at the age of 90 there is hope for us all!

Ronald,
great to know!