Iso Vs. Noise

Use the lowest possible ISO the situation will allow. Use noise reduction software when you need to. But be careful. Sometimes noise reduction kills the image quality worse than the noise.

high iso will mean noise. it depends on the camera and the image. you can over expose by a little and make it darker, this will push the noise back while giving you some control over the image.

iso doesn't control the light, it allows for a faster shutter speed in the trade off of noise. when you can, shoot with a fast lens and a tripod. or a stable lens.

only buy cameras that have a clean iso.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Thnx Joseph and Mike but the problem which arise is , when i do low light photography, i have to increase the iso... for say1600.. and at this stage, i end up with getting lots of noise, even with a noise reduction software, it reduces the detailing of the image, i want to know like is there any attribute i can use to reduce the noise even if i increase the ISO, please help...
similar thing arises in LONG SHUTTER for wide areas

#1....higher ISO will increase noise. The only way to reduce the noise also reduces detail in the image. There is no secret trick or magic that will change this, it is a fact of photography.

#2....noise prints better than it looks on screen in my opinion. Noise or grain the image isn't necessarily always a bad thing either. Most experienced photographers I know learn to embrace it after awhile.

It depends on what you want to achieve.

Do you want to freeze motion? Than you need a high shutter speed, and you have to increase the ISO, if neccessary.
Do you want to take pictures of cityscapes at night on a tripod? Than you can use the lowest ISO, because motion blur isn´t an issue.
...

With modern cameras, you can use high ISOs, you could only dream of not so many years ago. You have to decide, what´s acceptable for you. You can reduce noise in post processing (especially, if you shoot RAW), but you can´t fix motion blur in post (yes I know, there is a filter in Photoshop, but it can only correct some camera shake).

Colin Utz
www.colinutzphotography.com

@Thomas

I totally agree! In fact, you can destroy the mood of a picture, if you take away the noise. (In Lightroom you even can ADD noise purposely!)

Ok Thomas and Colin, but i have seen many low light wide view landscape photographs, they are too different, they have about negligible noise. like the pics in which most of the photographers get good amount of noise, ok so i get it , total noise reduction not possible , but i m sure, there are ways through which the effects of noise can be diminished!
and
Thomas do really are the noise prints better? thnx for that info, i really didn't knew that..
Colin in post processing also ,like photoshop noise reduction tool, this also decreases the detailing, and also thnx, as post processing is better alternative than photoshop's tool..

Aizen, I think, you misunderstood Thomas and me. Indeed, we think that noise is overrated, and that too much noise reduction can destroy a picture.

BUT (and that´s a big BUT), if you want to sell your pictures here on FAA, you have to stick to the FAA rules, and what the quality editor thinks, what is acceptable to print!

Yeah Colin, Exactly ,i think that much noise reduction can destroy the detailing of a picture...ummm.... wait, i m talking to you in private message.. i m a new photographer and i think i must learn new things and here on FAA , people like u ,Thomas and others can help me a lot.. thnx, . wait i need to ask u about something, i m PMing u

Aizen, I received you PM, but without a question. But anyway, you can ask almost everything here in the forum, and there are many very compentent members, who are happy to help. And by asking here, you can also help others. Many people read the threads here, who are to shy to ask.

Sometimes, you have to wait some hours before you´ll get a response, because most FAA members are from North America, and sleeping now. 😊

There are some reasons why noise is overrated:

Like Thomas said the effect is lower on prints because the range of contrast is MUCH lower on paper.
Many people look with a magnifier or very close to the image. That is not the way you normally observe a piece of art.
The 'noise' on film (grain) was often much higher than on modern digital prints. Some photos were even not possible.

If You think Your noise is too high than do not sell the big prints. I often do not offer the two biggest possible sizes.

if your doing low light, use a tripod. or get a camera that can handle iso better. but they cost a lot. my camera can handle iso 10,000 pretty well. the noise is easy to clean up. but a full frame camera costs a lot more than a small pocket camera. still there are small cameras that can handle the noise, that's why when you shop -that's all you look at. then comes other things like sharpness and so on.

there is little you can do to reduce noise, other than to over expose the shot a little bit and make it darker. however it doesn't work well if you only have jpg, or there are lots of whites in the scene like clouds or glare.

a long shutter may warm the ccd too much and cause other noise issues. only thing you can do is upgrade your camera and invest in it.

i never liked noise, and too much of it will prevent printing. i smooth all my work, but it's tedious as it's a lot of hand work.

too much noise in an image will destroy detail. too much noise removal will finish off your detail. you'll have to find a happy medium for low light work using a tripod and acceptable levels of iso that works with your camera. every camera has a learning curve. and each one you need to play with it to see what that curve is. maybe a tripod with a 1 second exposure, f 16 (might be a sweet spot), with an iso of 400 might be good. its hard to say.

if your new - experiment. if your looking at other pictures and wondering how they got a clean shot -- they have a good camera, and a great lens, with a tripod and know what to do with stray noise. they know the limits of their camera.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

The cure for noise in low light is a tripod.

Even with film, higher ISO film produced grainier images. Its physics. Shutter speed and aperture control how much light reaches the sensor. Higher ISO make the sensor more sensitive to light but at a cost of noise.

Get a flash if you need to freeze motion or a tripod if nothing is moving.

Thnx Rudi, Mike and Chuck!
i have realized that using a tripod will reduce the noise to greater extent in low light shootings! (by Chuck and Mike's post)


and yes u are right Rudi, if there is much noise then bigger sizes should not be offered! yes!

And Mike , u said right , i checked the picture details of the best pix with low light, they use a very high quality camera and lens to reduce the noise, i think i must invest more on the lens,
and reducing it with any software carefully on every detail is what i found to be the best. talking about glare, exposing it to proper extent will work i think.. !

thnx for the suggestions

Sure Edward! freezing the motion works very nice with flash, but for a shiny object it many times add reflection glare to it.. like reflecting the flash, causing the object less visible...
with a film as u said, yup i agree on tht!

thnx for the suggestion

the best thing is not to have to reduce any noise. shoot in raw, select areas with noise with masks and softer just those areas - like the sky. when shooting with a flash you have to bounce it off something or soften it to reduce glare. always know that if your in front of something reflective it will glare back.

a good lens might help some, but it won't remove the noise, it only allows for a faster image. get a prime lens if at all possible.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

depending on the subject you can look into image stacking to reduce noise... I use it on night shots and stars once in a while...

Longer shutter speed, smaller aperture. The darker it is, the longer something has to be stationary to show up in your image. I enjoy long exposures from 2 minutes to 7 hours. If you ever see those beautiful images of moving water, a lot use filters in order to keep the smaller aperture and lengthen the time. I used a lot of film over the years for long exposure, but then you have to figure out reciprocity, color shifting, and strange contrast that will do the same thing with different types of film..

The more you practice and play around with your camera, the better you will get at it.

Many nice advises and explanations on thread.

ISO and noise problems are so specific in photography.
High ISO can produce a lot of noise and destroy image.

From the other side even with ISO 400 -ISO 800 the best and most expensive cameras and lenses can produce a lot of noise and out of focus files , it depends from lighting condition.

Stories and reviews on web sites about cameras and their "amazing ISO results " are one thing and reality is another thing.

So, to avoid any potential problems with ISO and noise there is one and only solution- TRIPOD, especially for less experienced photographers.

Try always whenever and whatever you can to shoot with tripod .
On that way you will avoid any potential problems with ISO and noise and your files will be always in focus .

You can shoot with aperture priority and to leave camera to do the rest, you can shoot with longer shutter speed you can do whatever you like when you have tripod.

It is not necessary to buy some very expensive tripods , you can use and small tripods with $30-$40 .

You can find a lot of tutorials on Google how to shoot with tripod with aperture priority or different settings, also tripod allows you to shot HDR images with 3 different exposures .

For example even in studio where I have perfect lighting condition with ISO 100 , F8-F9 and shutter speed 1/160 when I shoot advertising campaigns I always use tripod .
It is a huge difference in quality with tripod and "shooting from hands" when I speak about sharpness , focus and all other things in professional photography.

For example when you watch on TV some Formula 1 races or football matches you will see that all photographers use tripods - simply it is A MUST for professional files.

Tripod and for example cheap Panasonic Lumix camera together can produce far better results then the most expensive camera $60.000 worthy if you shoot from hands with that expensive camera without tripod .

If you give me choice for example to choose between Tripod + Lumix and from the other side the most expensive camera with shooting from hands , my choice will be Tripod + Lumix :)

Best regards,
Milan

Here is a good article about noise. Essentially, it says that using the lowest possible ISO for the situation is not always the best advice. A higher ISO with a brighter exposure will give you a less noisy image than under exposing with a lower ISO.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8189925268/what-s-that-noise-shedding-some-light-on-the-sources-of-noise

With faster lenses, you can open them up to let more light in and reduce the ISO. Of course, like anything, this will come with a different set of trade offs. And faster lenses are expensive.


quote "i have realized that using a tripod will reduce the noise to greater extent"

Tripods do not reduce noise. They allow you to shoot at slower shutter speeds and thus lower ISO's without motion blur from camera shake. You still need to compensate to let the same amount of light in some other way (longer shutter speeds, wider aperatures etc)

HeyMike thnx, i shall work on tht glare and bounce back thing. And a prime lens? better for particular distance shooting... i think it won't be good enough for shooting on different objects and the type of view, like it has a fixed focal length ,so won't be much effective in different type of shootings like Macro And Infinity... still better choice for selective shooting...

and mask editing! yes.. it will not only reduce the overall image's detailing, but give our required noise reduction to selected areas!

Hey Chris, indeed "image stacking" the best possible option so far, BUT the down point is u need multiple SIMILAR images in a short time, say if we stacked 5 images, of same phase at an iso of 100 indeed the pictures will be with negligible noise and sufficient lightning we need.. but for fast moving objects, or phase changing objects, image stacking is not possible! we can't get the same phase image for fast moving object.. say a Waterfall.! but still it's best for stable cityscape! thnx

Kevin, yes, the more we use , the more are we familiar..


Hi Milan, i like your Tripod thing, a tripod can fix things like shaking and long exposure problems, but the more better your cam , the more better it works with a tripod! an yes , a stable image, and more detailing,

so i think for low light stable photography like a cityscape or a wide field where everything looks at "stop" motion! I shall go with A TRIPOD and USE IMAGE STACKING .. even at low iso like 100! even in dark i can get superb quality images! yes.. like other tricks, this also needs to much efforts! and a single wrong image can ruin the stacking!

thnx all for your suggestions!
I

Exactly Kevin! Exactly! i was wondering how can tripod help reduce noise to a good extent.. umm.. i think till low extent it is possible as the objects are in focus and much detailing..! it can help reduce image shaking and for long exposures!

thnx Loree, it's a best and like "first aid" to noise, no not best, but still that increasing a little ISO and increasing exposure can help!

You can sometimes improve things by selectively reducing noise in the most obvious places (eg skies) but leaving it alone where there is detail. You can use layers for that or just lassoo the area you want to adjust and add a large feather.

the prime lens is usually faster and sharper than a zoom type lens. if many of your scenes are static like a landscape, then a prime is probably best. otherwise a walk about lens with a wide/medium range is better. but you want a faster lens.

the only thing you can do is experiment. try a series of things, write it down as you go and see what works and what doesn't. when you find a combo that works, if you have a phone, download a program that lets you write things down. i use color note for android. i keep all the settings that worked the best so i don't forget them. i check and modify. just be sure to also write down your normal settings so you don't forget those.

there are also ways to control some noise using blurred color channels, but i've had mixed results with that. i'll usually use median set to 15, set to a black ask, and i paint the areas that need adjusting.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

You are welcome Aizen,

try with tripod , ISO 100 , aperture priority and you will be surprised with amazing results and quality.

One more thing and main trick - when you shoot with tripod DO NOT press the camera button with fingers because even with fingers you can slightly remove camera and destroy file.

This is the most important thing !

When you shoot with tripod , put camera on tripod , put tripod on position where you want , make frame which you want to shoot and then activate camera button with wire.

http://www.digital-photo-secrets.com/tip/3405/when-to-use-a-cable-release-and-remote-shutter-release/


Best of luck on your journey
Milan

If you're going to use a tripod and a cable release you might as well use mirror lock-up, too.

I put the camera on a two second delay for tripod shots of stationary subjects

HI Paul , very much thnx for the mirror lock and cable release thing! i am sure they are best to prevent the shaking! and with Lasso tool..? i was thinking to try it with mask tool.. ok i never did with lasso , i am gonna definitely try that! :)


HI Milan, i always try to protect that shaking thing, but i get the correct image only after a few attempts, a wire is definitely a better alternative ,especially in an instant photography! this thing is gonna help me a lot :)


Oh Yes! what an Idea Joseph! a camera shot delay! yes! it can help to prevent the shaking with fingers on pressing the button! it will not able prevent the cam from shaking but also help to stabilize with the thing! but this thing is best for stationary objects!

Hey Mike the only and the major drawback i found in prime lens is it's fixed focal length , oh yeah, tht's y its called a prime lens! but a collection of these lens with variable focal length will be hell of a photography kit, but definitely its gonna cost me an epic! very expensive!
and oh yeah superb logic Mike! writing the best combinations, i never write, i just try to get a random best combination with all the things i know! but i never thought of noting it down..it is definitely gonna help me! i will take my tablet and make all important notes of my combinations in it! :)


thnx to all for suggestions

Using flash is indeed another way to deal with this issue. But I didn't mention it because that's a science in itself. At a minimum using a dedicated flash in the hotshoe is the way to go. Even better is a flash bracket to move the flash away from the lens. Then there are flash intensities and other adjustments you can make. It's pretty complicated and takes a lot of practice.

Hi Chuck very useful thing u said, i must learn to use flash intensities, u mean we can change it right by moving it using flash bracket.. right!! hmm.. i even use lamp sometimes to work on tht!

Here is tangential info that may or may not be of interest. Long exposures are the norm in astrophotography. Noise can be reduced by cooling the sensor to cryogenic temperatures, as I remember. So a cold night might be better than a hot night with regard to noise in you photos. Usually winter nights offer the best sky viewing, also. Other problems arise, like cold batteries don't work very well.

Aizen, before getting too wrapped up in learning flash photography, I'd recommend getting really good at using the tripod and other methods of low light photography first. I personally found flash photography a little overwhelming. I was forced into it due to being asked to shoot a wedding for one of my daughter's friends.

Hello Gregory Scott! really ? temperature? ooh! so i was wondering there's a little difference as i m using the cam's optical zoom and it getting a little heated and so a little warmness inside cam makes it more noisy! it's like a photography hack! thnx !

Hey Chuck ! lol.. ok! i m gonna be ok in those tripod issues first! :D then i will try flash photography ! i sometimes try it.. like an object in a well lit room , when i use lamp with flash, with the object being in macro focus, all the part except the focus becomes complete black! with each detail in the object and not at all any glare! I think its a type of flash photography too!

ok but as u are more experienced , i m definitely going with low light and tripod perfection first! :) thnx for tips! and i m gonna seriously follow them! :)