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Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Art Is Dead, Long Live Art!

In Frank Zappa's album "Joe's Garage" the last song is "A little Green Rosetta". This is a meaningless drivel song with a catchy tune. Zappa was making a statement that when the government gets a hold of creative endeavors they will be boiled down till there is nothing of significance left. I often feel this way about "public art", what do you think?

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Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

Well, first I would pose the question: what significance do YOU feel public art ought to have? I can't speak for every public venue in America but if you would visit Kansas City you would find some very progressive public art. Our airport, for example, greets people with very large abstract sculptures. One of the sculptures does double duty a a sort of water fall and at night lights up in a very Dan Flavin light display.

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Little public art goes beyond the decorative. Content can not be afforded due to public outrage

 

Robert Kernodle

8 Years Ago

Who is "public"?

To generalize with words like "society", "the public", "the average person", and so forth is an oversimplification from the get go.

I think all these terms are driven by organizations that control information flow. The REPORTED (information controlled) impression of art most likely to be in our awareness is probably a "boiled down" vestige of what serious creative people might consider "significant". But this is just an engineered general perspective.

"Public art", then, is a small subset of art, touted by promoters. Consequently, the PROMOTION of art is lacking in significance, NOT art in general.

Art, therefore, is not watered down. The paradigm that PROMOTES art IS.

 

Joe Burgess

8 Years Ago

I think the problem is that you can't quantify the affects of art.
If you could measure inspiration and influence, society would be more willing to invest in such things.

Joe Burgess
J.B. Imagery

 

Edward Fielding

8 Years Ago

!% for the arts creates a lot of opportunities for artists. In some states 1% of construction projects have to go to artworks.

NEA funds a lot of art in America despite conservatives constant attempts to reduce its tiny budget in favor of more military spending and tax cuts for the rich.

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Public art is art shown out in the public. In this case I am talking about government programs for public art and whether the work that is selected is devoid of meaning and therefore a little green rosetta.

 

Edward Fielding

8 Years Ago

NEA's proposed budget for 2015 is $146 million inside a budget of trillions this is a mere rounding error.

"each direct grant dollar leverages another nine dollars of non-federal support."

http://www.americansforthearts.org/news-room/americans-for-the-arts-news/statement-on-administration%E2%80%99s-fy-2015-budget-request-for-nea

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Edward, all true but is the work produced in these projects worthwhile?

 

Edward Fielding

8 Years Ago

Public art - So graffiti counts?

...

Is the work funded by the NEA worthwhile? I'd say so because when I attend local theater the NEA is often thanked.

 

Joe Burgess

8 Years Ago

Government has no soul.
Can I get an Amen?

Joe Burgess
J.B. Imagery

 

Robert Kernodle

8 Years Ago

If the "public" cannot detect artistic content, then the content is NOT there to begin with. It is merely an artifact in the mind of the creator, who has failed to communicate it or for whom the educational system has failed to instill the knowledge in his/her audience to detect it..

The government, then, might be failing to nurture a culture capable of grasping what significant art is. But worse, there is NOT a general definition of what "significant" art is that lawmakers could push to be a standard. Hence, no standard definition, ... no public art education, ...no public understanding, ... no public grasping of deeper "content".

Artists dug this hole. Now they have to live in it

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Amen.

 

Edward Fielding

8 Years Ago

So I guess we should pull funding of art teachers in our public schools.

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

The one single shining example of brilliant public art is the Vietnam Memorial, which honors the dead without honoring war. And yes, there was a massive struggle with the powers that wanted the equivalent of a general on horseback. I believe there is in fact such a secondary sculpture of Vietnam, but it gets virtually no notice.

 

Robert Kernodle

8 Years Ago

What I am getting at is that if art is so hard or so variable to define, educational standards to teach it are doomed to failure. How can you educate people about what is so hard to pin down? Government regulations are already challenged enough with things that we CAN define precisely. What else should we expect?

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Good example Kevin! There was a sculpture by the artist Richard Serra that was placed in a park. The meaning and content of the work is unimportant to this story but the park was frequented by frisbee enthusiast. The large heavy work cut the park nearly in half. The frisbee crowd was up in arms and eventually got the work moved.

 

Robert Kernodle

8 Years Ago

The title of this thread is ... Art Is Dead ....

I would say that the IDEA of art is dead, instead.

... dead by dissipation, ... going in so many directions that no two people have the same grasp of what it labels, ... like a nebulous mass that no two people can hold onto the same way, ... like a cloud that one child sees as an elephant and another child aspiring to be a meteorologist sees as a sign of fair weather ahead.

How well can you signify (assign significance) to that which morphs so greatly?

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Robert point given, Physicist are looking for the unification theory that combines quantum mechanics with Big bang and all the universe stuff. Very hard to understand and pin down so why teach about it?

 

Edward Fielding

8 Years Ago

Funny thing about government funding of the arts is the opponents want art to be controlled by the government. They want NEA funded (most are only partly funded via grants) projects to only express their narrow values and ideas of what art should or can be.

--

Art can be taught through participation and experience.

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

Hey Robert, perhaps art will experience the big crush on the other end?

 

Joe Burgess

8 Years Ago

People like consistent. It's comfortable and predictable. It provides warmth and high-speed internet.
They reward concepts that sustain these things and consume those that challenge them.

Joe Burgess
J.B. Imagery

 

David King

8 Years Ago

What is the purpose of "publicly" funded art? Let's start with that question, in fact maybe we should question whether art should ever be publically funded at all.

 

Ronald Walker

8 Years Ago

David, kind of what I'm wondering.

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

Frisbee is such a growing sport.

We often say things like: no public grasping of deeper "content" (sorry Robert, you were just handy). While this SEEMS like it should be true, and we often find controversy in various places around the country, I believe that we vastly underestimate the ability of the "public" to grasp a great idea. The die hards who fought so much against Maya Lins' Vietnam memorial were proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. She designed and created what may be the most powerful work of art ever done, affecting the art educated and uneducated in the same degree. Even though this is true (and can be quantified) those who argued against it, collected funds and made their "soldiers with guns" sculpture and then got it placed. But to say the public did not "get" it is just not so.

Now, that is but one example. But look at Cristo's work around the world, especially here in the US. Many municipalities fought vigorously against his work, but in the end he financed it out of his own pocket, taking proceeds from video and other sources. And each project was a success and pointed to as a source of pride by the respective communities. They "got" it.

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Robert Kernodle

8 Years Ago

Robert point given, Physicist are looking for the unification theory that combines quantum mechanics with Big bang and all the universe stuff. Very hard to understand and pin down so why teach about it?

The UNIFICATION is hard to pin down, but the components of the attempted unification are very precisely defined. Try combining scrambled eggs with horse manure in an elegant way, and you will see the real problem there, which is a far cry from the concept of public art, which now has no precision in its basic component.

... not that I want such precision, but you cannot have it both ways ... (1) freedom of creative expression, and (2) precision of definition to teach public values and public understanding.

 

Joe Burgess

8 Years Ago

To cover my argument...

I do see the irony of my touting the unselfish while simultaneously declaring that my art is for me.

My efforts are an attempt to carve out a piece of my soul and lay it out for the scrutiny of others.
It is an anxiety ridden process where I explore and expose my personal demons and inspirations.
I strive for impossible perfection knowing that it will never be good enough in my eyes.
I hope to create a conversation that continues long after I do not.

It is all about self and sacrifice...and maybe nude women one of these days...

Joe Burgess
jb-imagery.com

 

Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

David;

Never right to follow the current trend...always keep your own path.

 

Robert Kernodle

8 Years Ago

I was referring to those who focus their energies toward trends and what they think the market wants to see.

[Even so, I contend that this can be a vision in itself. The art of pleasing others through trends is no less of an art than the art of pleasing oneself through one's own art. It requires a leap of attitude. Is it the ONLY approach? -- No ... Is it the BEST approach? - For some, maybe. For others, definitely not. But it IS a choice of how to work as an artist, and I would not demean anyone for making this particular choice.]

Business is business, and if this involves art, then so be it. There are lots of reasons and lots of paths to create art. Do I have MY biases? - Yes. But I cannot use these to criticize others' choices of economic survival activity. Maybe the person who cranks out trendy portraits does OTHER things to gain a sense of deep fulfilling engagement. THIS is not what art is to such a person. Instead, art for this person is pure bread and butter, and fulfillment might be something as simple as a walk in the park on a sunny day to reflect on the success of making money this way.]

 

Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

When one visits a big art museum there are many choices and periods of history in geographically arranged categories. Lots of visitor and lots of choices. Many of the works in the museums were not government approved works and some were government commissioned. Communist commissioned statuary for example with a big head of Stalin or the Saddam Hussein statue. These are still great works of art and made by accomplished artisans.

Seems our society currently in the 21st century baby clothes is fairly commonly on trend when it comes to style of fashion and art. So naturally a good art salesman would want to make available a selection predominantly on trend. But before any of the works in the museum got noticed originally they were unique to their culture and time.

Doubt if a government would commission (by committee) a big graffiti wall but that's possible. Sure would add to the misery of those who hate graffiti though.


 

Fine art Gallery

8 Years Ago

Speaking of graffiti, if something like Banksy's work, I would contribute, and support. I don't think the government will support this though.

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

When one goes to Berlin and looks for the Wall you can find sections in many places. Several sections were set up and the public encouraged to create their own graffiti art on them. Over the years some of the paint has peeled and others have written their personal messages of hope in those places, creating an even more layered work of public art.

Art Prints

 

Fine art Gallery

8 Years Ago

Very beautiful public Art!

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

It is very moving. There are many moving reminders of the ugly past of Germany in Berlin. They do not fear making amends nor pointing out past mistakes.

 

Fine art Gallery

8 Years Ago

I remember the time When Reagan speaking publicly to Gorbachev, Tear down this wall. It was a truly moving time of the history.
Kevin, It is very interesting point.

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

Yes, and as to the idea that Communist "art" was great art, well, I walked into the old East Berlin and observed a lot of public art made under Communist rule. If that is great art, spare me. It was ugly and soulless, with little or no form so it could not be criticized by anyone, except an actual artist.

 

David King

8 Years Ago

Kevin, a local museum here has a huge collection of soviet era impressionist paintings, while they are not as "happy" and colorful as western art I think they do have a lot of soul, and probably document the soviet lifestyle better than the official government propaganda even though they were scrutinized by the politburo.

 

Joe Burgess

8 Years Ago

But it IS a choice of how to work as an artist, and I would not demean anyone for making this particular choice..

I wasn't trying to demean anyone.
I just noted the differences between the two approaches, and my belief that only one is capable of social change.

Joe Burgess
J.B. Imagery

 

Neven Spirkoski

8 Years Ago

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Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

Of course you know that Picasso the most famous of free world artists, was in fact a communist and was very proud of it. Sculptors who had been doing the monuments for the Third Reich were instrumental in smuggling Picasso out of Paris safely before the invasion. Many American artists were communists as a sort of popular thing in the 1950's.
Even Missouri's Thomas Hart Benton was a proud card carrying communist for what reason I cannot imagine. It must no have gone well with box buddy President Truman I'm guessing.

On graffiti I'd rather see that then pretty pictures for sale at local private art galleries I'm used to seeing.

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

Picasso was a Communist the same way Diego Rivera was, that is when it suited them and as long as their friends praised them. They each lived fairly lavish lives basically disconnected from Communism. But they did like to go to the parties. Also Vincent, you mentioned graffiti in relation to US public art. I was merely pointing out it can be a viable public art function, as it is in Berlin. You don't like it? Well, your privilege. Like the Vietnam memorial it seems to move a lot of people in a very emotional way.

 

Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

I always loved graffiti here and there but most I've seen is not more than a mess. Still it looks better than gallery art with pretty pictures of barns and sunsets.


By the way I opened FAA and a new print was sold. The artist is "Vincent van Gogh" He has an FAA account in France and an Arab is running it. Seems FAA will let anybody sell anything on this site. Real live artists are taking a back seat here to mass print sales of off copyright famous artists.

 

Jason Christopher

8 Years Ago

the pillow has risen! long live the leg!

 

Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

Kevin,

Art from all political arenas has it's own power.

 

Joe Burgess

8 Years Ago

I think the question here quickly evolves into...

At what point does art become propaganda?

Joe Burgess
jb-imagery.com

 

Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

Ok yea.

 

Robert Kernodle

8 Years Ago

What art can you think of that has led to social change?

In my fragmented ignorance, I cannot think of a single piece.

 

Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

It's a very intriguing question Robert! Usually it's life before art and not the other way around.

 

Joe Burgess

8 Years Ago

As I've stated above, I don't think its effect can be quantified, and that's why society is hesitant to invest in it.

Joe Burgess
J.B. Imagery

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

Robert, virtually ALL early Christian religious art for a long period of time. Prove it you might say. Well early Christian art was created to illuminate the Bible and the word of God and thus encouraged by the Vatican. This was done for the simple reason that the masses (vox populi) were ignorant and needed pictures with which to learn. One can, and art history books do, argue that such images were instrumental in spreading Christianity to the European world. This practice continued for centuries and spread from Italy to far flung places like Germanic areas and the British Isles to the Nordic countries. In actuality changing the world. These effects continue up to today as the two major religions of Christianity and Muslim stand on opposite sides of whether "images" are appropriate to depict their religions.

There may be, and probably are, other examples but this one is so large and evident it becomes seeing the forest for the trees situation.

 

Fine art Gallery

8 Years Ago

Isn't it true that Art history tells us there is a strong relationship between Art and religion.
There is a theory. In very early Art which is Cave Art was a religion or ceremonial purpose, etc.
So religion which we communicate in a foam of Art creates world most conflict. Yes It does make sense.

 

Kevin Callahan

8 Years Ago

While what you say is true, what I meant was that "art" did have a major influence before the fact. One could argue that without the art to accompany the texts that Christianity might have died on the vine. We do know that art did help move it forward. A case of art influencing the world.

 

Vincent Von Frese

8 Years Ago

Cave dwellers had a need to communicate through visual language as they may have lacked much of a verbal one. Hence the cave drawings were functional art like black boards to help teach the youngsters to focus on the hunting art so as to assure survival. The better craftsmen in cave wall art throughout the world did elaborate and move into what we call art today. I think by incorporating designs and color combinations based upon animals and war comprises most of the art.. There were few if any celestial cave paintings. I have two three thousand year old pre-historic axes which were carved in Missouri but considered art since they were perfected beyond mere function.

Keven, I agree with your view.
It illuminates how pictorial symbols and paintings communicate to the world about stuff like religion and politics. The symbols or war and peace incite action in peoples. Probably one reason military symbols and flags operate as identity signs for groups with one picture says it all.

Consider the peace symbol of three lines in a circle, the cross, the swastika, hazardous chemicals, sword, crusader shield, etc.

Visual language is stronger and more reaching than words alone but in concert with words. I figure earlier civilizations each with an inconsistent language had trouble communicating with each other and like even today no one universal language other than symbols exist.

Vince

 

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