Vegan Struggles

Hi, Lesley! Not sure how camel bone figures in with your photography ... ? But I'm with you in avoiding animal products and leather, for the most part. If it were me, I'd decline, also.

Oh, I feel old all of a sudden. I had to look up "straight edge". Oh well... Anyway, although I'm not vegan (now), I'd make the same decision. 'Cause what are the chances that she'd be coming by camel bones in a natural way. Yuck.

Everything dies, so I'm glad to see someone making use of the whole carcass, just as they used to do back before 3/4 of an animal was wasted.

(I'm a vegetarian who is also an osteologist, so I've got a thing for bones)

Am I missing something? What is it you make?

Where do you find camel bones? Not that I would want any just curious.

I think camels are raised as both pack animals and food in Iran, Jennifer.


This thread reminds me of a joke I heard recently:


How can you tell if a person is vegan?

Don't worry, they'll tell you.

:)

People are primates and basically vegetarians but have a taste for flesh which causes trouble in the animal kingdom.

What is the issue here? If you cannot touch the bones then decline. No need to make a song and dance about it.

I used to find camel bones in Kansas... they were pleistocene camels, but camels nonetheless :)

Jennifer - the woman wanting to make the art using camel bones is in Iran, no shortage of camels there.

And what is straight edge?

Thanks for the support Patricia and Peggy. :)
I sell only prints here because that's what FAA specializes in.
I sell physical items that I make on Fiverr, Etsy and eCrater.
Keychains, fridge magnets, bracelets, necklaces, notebooks, painted vinyl records - mostly music related 'cause that speaks to my true heart. 🎶
https://www.fiverr.com/marqueeofstars
https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/MarqueeOfStars
http://marqueeofstars.ecrater.com/

And yes, @Cynthia that's why I put the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory meme up. I get that what I believe is a joke to many and I accept that.

Straight edge is really just "a subculture and subgenre of hardcore punk whose adherents refrain from using alcohol, tobacco, and other recreational drugs. It was a direct reaction to the sexual revolution, hedonism, and excess associated with punk rock." @JC. I was into hardcore music as a kid, but not the self destructive acts that went with it. When I was introduced to straight edge one day, it really spoke to me and I never looked back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge

The Chimpanzees, Bornean Orangutan and Gibbons as well as man are omnivore primates.
For about 2 million years human type life has always been omnivore - they were Hunter gatherers. Homo Habilis and Neanderthal man after them, had diets that were typically meat heavy, with the addition of berries and vegetables.
The vegatarian lifestyle is relatively new and began to arrive after man had become sedentary, and learnt to farm and grow cereals.

Nice!! I shared your Fiverr shop on FaceBook, as I have several musicians in the family, and you've got some great gifts there.

OMG! Thanks so much, Patricia! I appreciate it!

Thanks JC for asking what "Straight Edge" is! And, thanks for the explanation Lesley...I had no clue.

I am not straight edged, I am cutting edge....sort of.....

Dave

I agree with Heather. Everything dies. Life goes on...

First off, I just want to say that that pic of yours is amazing, John. I love it.

So, everything dies. Oh yes. I know that all too well. But that's not what I struggle with. It's the appalling life that leads up to that death. If oil pastels were made from the fat of a cow who died naturally, happy in her field - awesome - I'd use them. But no, that's not what happened to her.

Animals have to be suffer and die for us humans, of that I have no illusions - but maybe not so many have to live a horrible life for *me*. Hey, I don't mind having to be a bit more dextrous with my synthetic watercolour brush so as to not have a naked sable.

Pastels are made with animal oils? I had no idea... I just work with oil paints.

I know Craypas and it's parent company (sakura, I think?) don't use animal products in their pastels. Most art supply companies list the ingredients right on their website. I learned not too long ago that a lot of watercolor paper is sized with gelatin. Strathmore papers don't use animal products, though.

" If oil pastels were made from the fat of a cow who died naturally, happy in her field - awesome - I'd use them. But no, that's not what happened to her"

But they don't kill cows JUST to make pastels. It is a use of the bi-products of making meat isn't it? A way to assure we use as much of the animal that gave its life for us. Nothing is wasted, be it a cow being killed for meat or a lion killing a gazelle for the same reason.

How would you feel if instead of using it to make pastels, they threw it away?

BTW, Thanks for your comments on my shot. The skull actually came from a deer that died of EHD. A disease spread by flies that slowly and horrifically kills the deer it infects. We had a bad outbreak a few years ago here and a large portion of our deer population died because of it.

That skull could have just decomposed in the woods, never to be seen again, or I could have done this with it. In my way the animal, in a small way, lives on.

Interesting to read about SE: After seeing a lot of great punks and rockers burn out and die young over the years - straight edge sounds like a good life plan. Just add "no texting and driving" to the list.

There are some great websites, Cynthia that help me stay true to my beliefs. Like
http://emptyeasel.com/2009/01/29/the-vegans-list-of-art-supplies-art-products-free-of-animal-ingredients/

My differentiation, John, is the life of the animal leading up to its death.
If lions started keeping gazelles in feed lots in terrible conditions I'd have a problem with that, but the gazelle runs free and does its gazelle thing to the bitter end.
For me, I do my best to not use any of the cow (or any animal) product myself, leaving it for others to use. That way, maybe fewer cows have to suffer 'cause, even though it's products are being used, there's less of a demand...

Well, Edward, I'm not entirely sure 'no texting while driving' *entirely* fits into the poison free lifestyle, but I can appreciate its health benefits... :D
Try the (non-militant) lifestyle for a bit. It's quite rewarding. *JoinUs* *JooooooinUsssss* Hee hee hee

Thanks Lesley DeHaan for the interesting thread!!!

Karma is a bitch. Animal proteins are a number one cause of cancer as well as all rates of disease. It's much better to eat beans and rice. Way to go!

Does FAA use animal products in their packaging I wonder? And would that be a deal breaker for you?

Wrong group there Dean, it is more the anti paper crowd that the packaging would offend, actually though, the paper industry within the US is very renewable and replant their forests after harvest.

I do my best, Dean. There's dead animal in the rubber of the seals of my car, I have to take my vaccines, and there's nothing I can do about the keratin in packing tape.
I can't expect a corporation to change to vegan friendly packing supplies for me, but I do what I can.
I guess I was just really shocked yesterday morning, in my pre-coffee state, when I opened an email and saw carved animal bone (I at first thought it was ivory). I mean, my friends eat burgers and such around me all the time and I compartmentalize it. I just hadn't prepared myself...

To each his/her own. I'm not a vegan, but I occasionally serve vegetarian meals. My family likes them, and it's convenient to know a few recipes that most people like for guests who don't eat meat.

I'm allergic to tree nuts and peanuts. It's difficult to find enough variety in protein sources to eat vegan food all the time if you have to eliminate nuts. Tofu works... beans work in small doses (digestion issues...) depending on whether the vegan will eat milk products - which don't involve dead cows, dairy might work. After that, I start running out of ideas....

I only have one answer for Vegan's - BACON

I was a vegetarian for ten years and it was surprising to see just how widely animal products are used. I guess to be a strict vegan in today's society is near impossible. FAA might for example use animal-based glue in its packaging. And I also read somewhere that lots of foods contain an x percentage of accidentally crushed insects (there are even legal standards as to how much).

Whilst I was off the meat bacon was indeed one of my biggest temptations. Tofu bacon is not an option. I've now found a free range solution that the packaging assures me comes from happy pigs who have lead a decent life and were fed properly.

All through my childhood, I ate bacon, RoyD, 'cause I was told that I loved it. I tried it cooked in every which way but just couldn't stand the stringy fat and flesh rolling around on my tongue. As I started figuring myself out, and separating what I liked from what I was told I liked, I stopped putting meat in my mouth long before my Straight Edginess. I wasn't "vegetarian" because, in the small farming town I grew up in, that word didn't exist. I just wouldn't eat meat.

The only label I had attached to me was weirdo when I went to a friend's house and wouldn't eat the meat of the main course. When I ate only the corn, peas and potatoes at the town's annual pig roast, I got condescending looks paired with stage whispers of how my parents paid $8 for me to attend and I wasn't even eating the pig.

Fortunately, I had learned parents in the sea of cruel children and judging adults, who supported me and helped me as I accepted that meat in my mouth was horrific to me.

*TO ME* I have no problem with everyone else eating what they want. Pretty much all of my friends love bacon, and burgers and chicken strips, and if they suddenly look up at me, remembering my lifestyle and worried about my reaction, I'm like, "Be you, man. This is my issue and no one else's. Eat your burger, finish your beer and I'll drive you home when you're ready."

Hi Lesley,
You're not the only person on the planet that I've met who doesn't like meat, or who doesn't eat it for other reasons.

What do you do for protein in your diet - other than Tofu, beans, nuts/peanuts, or dairy products? I would be interested to know if you've found additional sources of protein, most non-meat recipes I've found that contain protein are limited to the above listed protein sources.

Lesley I have pretty much experienced what you have. But believe it or not, bacon has different gradations. The stuff I am now baking in my oven occasionally is just in another league from all the other factory stuff I have been eating. Happy pig is a nice concept. Live a good life, get slaughtered in a humane way and become delicious bacon...it's really not that bad.

Having said that, I still eat vegetarian. I am lucky to have some excellent vegetarian Indian places nearby and they are so good they make me wonder why I even bother with meat. There are also some 'hardcore' Thai/Chinese places around where the tofu is a full fledged meat substitute and sometimes even surpasses meat. Good tofu prepared by a skilled chef can be divine. But still, hard to find at most places where tofu or vegetarian is an item on the menu to shut up vegetarians.

Had the gluten free/dairy free vegan ice cream the other day though and someone needs to be put against the wall for that. It was so nasty it gives vegetarian/vegan a bad name :)

I'll be honest, Cheryl, to my doctor's horror I'm very anemic... but I'm still very active with hiking almost every day and kickboxing 4 times a week.
I cook with Seitan and tofu (yes, I like tofu) and eat tons of peas, beans, and seeds like sesame and sunflower. I love edamame when I go to a Japanese restaurant with my friends.
But let me tell you, quinoa is keeping me alive. I love it and eat it all the time. So YUMMY!

Lesley, I feel as you do for the most part. I actually eat fish on occasion (which makes me a pescatarian, actually), but meat is not needed to get enough protein. I eat eggs and dairy. You don't want to eat much tofu, as it is goitrogenic, and soy is not meant to be eaten in large doses.

I don't believe people need as much protein as is led us to believe. The Italians who came to this country at the early part of the 20th century ate mostly vegetable-based foods, but the American school system pushed meat on the children.

I wish we could all eat according to our comfort and beliefs and not be judged or made fun of because of it.

Lesley, just gulp some Geritol a few times a week and you'll be fine (for the anemia). I was severely anemic several years ago when I was a heavy meat-eater, strangely enough. I needed therapeutic iron to bring it up.

Happy pig is a great concept, Dean. Something I can really get behind that.

Indian food is a great option for me as well. Our outings are to Indian restaurants more than most other places.

Chinese places, I've learned that I have to say that I'm a "Buddhist Vegetarian" too keep all animal products out of my order.

I have sensitive teeth meaning I don't eat cold stuff very often, so I don't have to suffer through chocking down subpar icecream...

I like tofu, too, but there are a lot of people who don't.

Edamame and Quinoa... forgot about those, and I do like them.

For anemia, what does your doctor think about you taking iron supplement pills? Your doctor is not the one who could develop health problems from anemia -- you are. The doctor's just the messenger. If s/he's telling you you're anemic, you should do something about it other than horrifying your doctor.

The doc put me on some iron supplements and had me change my diet to help absorption awhile ago and it has helped bring my iron count up. I feel really healthy even with my iron level - I'm rarely tired and am really active.

Ok, sounds like you & your doctor have it under control... I'm not a doctor, not my area of expertise...

@Lisa: "Animal proteins are a number one cause of cancer as well as all rates of disease."

Wow! Really? I would be interested to see a credible scientific reference for this statement. Any particular "cancer" or "disease" you had in mind? I am so worried now I had better stop eating meat immediately as I'm worried about getting Lyme Disease or lung cancer. Then again perhaps I should just wear long socks and give up smoking...

First World problems.

@David: what are first world problems - vegans or illnesses? I think both have been around for millennia :D

I kinda have to agree with you, Richard.
I started this lifestyle with both eyes wide open. I know that using animal products is right for most people in the world and if I told them that what they are doing is going to cause them to have a horrible death, well, I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty GD unliked...
If you are curious about the negative effects of ingesting red meat, there's a concise read about the body's reaction to it here
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/possible-link-between-red-meat-consumption-and-increased-cancer-risk-identified
but, TBH, I don't care. Cancer, car crash, anemic shock whatever takes me is fine. I just want to life a life where gross stuff doesn't touch my tongue or skin... 😝

Oh trust me, David, I get that a lot.
Visiting my best friend's family in rural Philippines was insane. My lifestyle was so foreign to them that they were offended. How dare I make such a white-person choice and not use every resource available. Anything that could be used in "my" family's village (they took me in as a Pinsan very quickly) was taken and consumed.
I ate what I was given while there and just passed my friend the truly objectionable foods behind my back.

If we weren't supposed to be eating cows, nature would have made them a lot faster. Case in point: You don't see any Cheetah Burger restaurants.



Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Vegans around for millennia? What alternate reality are you living in?

Do we really need to hear complaints about the difficulties stemming from a personal choice.

What's next, nuns complaining about how hard it is to maintain their vows of chastity?

Im not a vegan but I came across something last night in a vlog. Meat takes 2-3 days to digest in a humans intestines. Can you imagine? A steak in your intestines for 2-3 days in a 98.6 degree environment? The smell of roadkill comes to mind....just grosses me out to think of it. Im gonna do more research to see if this is a valid find.

Each to their own, but I'm still stuck on the mention of not sitting on leather seats. I've not heard that before.

Melissa: The stomach acid probably kills all the germs & bacteria. Think of it as marinade... your own stomach's recipe.

I also tend to think that article may be wrong... if you become violently ill, you only upchuck the last meal or two... then you're pretty darned empty... and barf doesn't smell like 48-hour roadkill, it smells like stomach acid... which can be pretty nasty, but at least it's not the unmistakable odor of rotting meat (unless you ate rotten meat in the first place...).

Aren't you glad I responded to your post? lol

(sorry, Leslie, this must be really grossing you out ... if it is, just don't read it)....

Cheetah Burger lol

Maybe Straight Edge, then, is what we used to call Square. Or maybe Rectangular.

If you eetah cheetah burger, is that cheeting?

Interesting read.

One of the reasons I like meat is it takes a while to digest. Steak and eggs for breakfast will hold me all day.

But isn't it great we live in a place where we can choose our own path, regardless what others think?

I second what JC said. The thing is, there isn't any perfect way of eating. No matter your choices, people still get sick, they still get cancer, have disease, etc. We all make choices and take risks every day.

Being diabetic I've done a lot of reading on nutrition, metabolism, and what happens in your body after you eat. I've come to 2 conclusions, the western world eats far too many processed carbs, and far too much meat. And we all would do well to eat a little of everything and not too much of anything. Moderation is something most people have a very hard time with, no matter what lifestyle is chosen.

@David: I was simply asking for clarity to your 3 word statement. That's all :D

And no, I don't live in an alternat(iv)e reality, but of course there have been vegans for millennia. Not through choice perhaps, and not permanently but that wan't my point.
As an alcohol-imbibing, meat-eating, Pastafarian I genuinely couldn't give a shout what people do to themselves in their choice of eating, drinking, spiritual, sexual, artistic, or any other endeavors. Just so long as (a) their views aren't forced on the unwilling (especially children), and (b) it doesn't require others to alter their behavior to accommodate their peccadilloes.

@Richard

I think you're confusing vegan and vegetarian.

Being vegan is definitely a conscious choice which is why I'm wondering what point there is in complaining about it.

Nah, honestly I'm not confusing vegan and vegetarian, really. I am sure there have been plenty of times throughout the millennia when many people have had vegan diets, albeit temporarily or simply forced upon them by near-starvation diets, but that's not the point. Vegan/Vegetarian/Fructivore/Beer and Sausage/Coprophagy etc. it's generally a personal choice of diet these days in an affluent society and I agree there's certainly no point in complaining. In answer to the OPs initial question, I don't see any "struggles" at all. This post began as a question on whether a vegan should make something out of a bit of camel bone. As I said right at the top of this post: "What is the issue here? If you cannot touch the bones then decline. No need to make a song and dance about it."

However, we have all turned it from a solo dance into a party, so let's swing! :D

Greg, it's true. I won't buy a car with leather seats, and I stopped buying leather products quite a while ago. Leather handbags gross me out. But I'm not overboard about it. If leather turns up here or there, so be it. I'm glad I have the freedom to choose, and I'm not complaining.

Richard, you still seem to be.

Vegetarians choose not to eat animal products.

Vegans choose to not, or at least strive not to, use any animal products at any time.

Anybody who's ever fasted knows that you'll still be pooping out stuff many days after you began fasting, meat or no meat. I used to fast for 10-day periods regularly (4x a year) and I was a vegetarian at that time. Your innards hang onto that stuff for a long time!