Amateur Or Professional?

And this one:

"It often happens that two schoolboys can solve difficulties in their work for one another better than the master can. When you took the problem to a master, as we all remember, he was very likely to explain what you understood already, to add a great deal of information which you didn’t want, and say nothing at all about the thing that was puzzling you.

I have watched this from both sides of the net; for when, as a teacher myself, I have tried to answer questions brought me by pupils, I have sometimes, after a minute, seen that expression settle down on their faces that assured me that they were suffering exactly the same frustration which I had suffered from my teachers.

The fellow-pupil can help more than the master because he knows less. The difficulty we want him to explain is one he has recently met. The expert met it so long ago he has forgotten. He sees the whole subject, by now, in a different light that he cannot conceive what is really troubling the pupil; he sees a dozen other difficulties which ought to be troubling him but aren't.

— C. S. Lewis

I see myself as a human who does what she loves! Life is good!

it depends what i'm doing. when i'm out and about, there are times when my mind goes blank and i have no idea what i'm pointing at. until i see it at home and then i know it a good shot. i don't have pro gear except for the camera, my bag, and other stuff are homemade for the most part, i don't dress the part. most of my things are the icing, the post work and presentation. there are others that set up shots, sit around for the right light, camp out on a mountain, hire models, etc. i don't do any of that.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Ah, the obsession with labels again! I don't know. It's hard to say I'm an amateur when I make a living from it, but I don't have appointments to keep and clients to deal with, and I only work when I feel like it. So you decide, I really don't care.

Ed, that's a fantastic quote from C. S. Lewis. Unfortunately, that situation arises here ALL the time. Someone will ask about their art and someone (you know who) quickly jumps in with keyword advice and technical information completely unrelated to the art or the question. It pulls the entire discussion off track.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

This question is timely for me today for, as we speak, I am uploading my first novel to Amazon. Yes, it is another kind of art, but it is still art.

Since I have never sold a novel before, I would consider myself an amateur. But I have written it with professionalism, and if I have sales, then I guess I can change my title.

As far as my other work: Director, cameraman, photographer, graphic artist, mixed media artist and a few other trades, I am a professional.

Chuck Staley Concept Art

I'm not concerned with labels. I'm just thinking about approaches to your work. Nothing to do with how you earn a living.

I'm a professional amateur, thank you very much! When I'm stalking wildlife, I approach it in professional manner so as not to disturb the quarry. In my excitement with locating the quarry, I forget everything I know about photography and just fire away like an amateur.

While I may not make "a living " from my Art, it makes my life worthwhile .

Professional is in the technique, not the paycheck.

I'm becoming more professional as time goes by! Thinking about things from the buyers perspective. I mean we are asking people to shell out a nice chunk of change so why not give them the best we can in a professional manner!

Lol, Kathleen. I've been there. I've practiced composition enough that that part usually happens naturally but a new environment or something unfolding quickly can throw me off guard.

....

Craig - I see the business side of the equation separately. Certainly that end of the business you want to be as professional as possible.

I would have to say that I'm semi-professional striving towards professional. I've been able to cut the hours of my day job to part time with the profit I'm making from selling my work. This frees up so much time to devote to photography...the editing, the traveling, the marketing, etc.

When I can quit my day job and completely am able to make a living solely from photography, I'll consider myself a professional in my field.

To clarify - thinking beyond income and hours....

For myself - I get bored when I think I've master something. I like learning new things. I'd hate to lose the hunger to learn new things that an amateur enjoys.

Amateur. Let me qualify that, serious amateur.

Professional infers that you make your living, or a fair portion of it from what ever it is that you are doing.

Amateur can mean that one is simply not good at something. On the other hand in many professions there are amateurs who know and are better at what ever it is, than many of the professionals are.

Ahhh ok I should have paid more attention to what you wrote above. Then it would be what Kathleen said..."professional amateur". Serious enough to be professional but still holding on to the amateur, to never stop learning and discovering.

Edward, I always approach my art as a professional. I don't consider anything else. I work hard, take classes in my medium, challenge myself and try to make the next piece better than the one before it.

The cycle of learning can go on forever as long as you remain curious and are willing to explore new ideas.



When declare yourself a professional are you stopping this process? Do you become less of a risk taker?

Quite often I've been called a Professional but I don't see myself that way..... then again I'm not sure I will ever label myself as a "Professional" or an "amateur" I prefer others to decide on their own what they think......and I will just continue to create.........

Maybe when I am more confidant I will see myself the way others do. Do I want to be a "professional" Artist? Most definitely.......My idols are who I see in that light and with that title therefore, I cannot put myself on the pedestal I hold them up on.

I have been featured in a Magazine, I have a few licensing deals under my belt ........does that matter? What makes one a professional? Maybe when my art ends up on a coloured pencil package I will allow myself the Title of "Professional"..........We will see, but for now I am just Sheena .

EDIT: One of my idols commented on one of my posts the other day and I melted..........(I guess thats a pretty amateur reaction)

Im profesional in being newb.
free giwe away: http://i.imgur.com/s1BS4Gk.jpg

I approach my work as a professional....because I am one.
This is what I trained for and how I pay my bills....to 'work' in any another mindset, would be counter-productive.
Utlimately, it would turn my status to amateur.

No room for play once you are a professional? All work?

I'm still pretty clueless ....I guess I better get some more confidence. I present and act in a professional way......but does that make me a professional?

Definitely amateur. Even if I were to go pro, I will always be an amateur. There are so many different types of medium for photography. How could anyone ever be an expert for all? There is always more to learn

I work with a playful attitude...does that count?

Yes Sheena it does, and I am confident you should see yourself as a professional. Maybe you enjoy it so much it doesn't seem right to be a professional job?

Jack of many trades - master of few - professional - what's that? How you approach your work - it should be professional - like you "know" what you are doing - whether with the camera, the paintbrush on paper or canvas or board, or on the computer. Rather than "professional" and amateur - it should be "mature" and amateurish"

I see a negative side to professional. If you can avoid that, hone your art, then the label is unimportant.
I see the "average" professional photographer as nailed down to a studio, and a rather boring portrait business. Rather than look for interesting people to shoot, in interesting light, he has a standard studio setup, and runs a portrait factory. He might take it on the road and shoot school photos.

Boring, often sterile, limited creativity? If that's professional, I don't want it.
You can throw in the professional wedding photographer. An inventory of 30 group poses, and appeasing bridezilla and her mom. Retch.
So if being a professional condemns you to being the equivalent of a cubicle slave, then you can have it.

If professional means creative, growing, and capable, then fine, I could aspire to that. Both flavors of the word are in common usage.

When people ask upon seeing my work, "Is this your full time job?,...I blithely reply, "It's not a job, it's a Calling"

Artist

There you go, Roger! =)

Calling Roger.....

....calling.....

Dont hang up!!

LOL

Dave

LOL!

The CS Lewis quote is excellent -- funny!

I consider myself narrowly a professional; broadly, a rank amateur. In the narrow area for a type of landscape watercolor I do, of which there are only a few posted here, professional; for most of my others here, amateur.

"It's not a job, it's a Calling"
Pastor Roger, ordained artist!

Gregory - yeah the drudgery of being a pro - having to pay the bills. Actually having to justify expenses. Having to pick mainstream subjects.

Amateur - picks and chooses subjects based purely on interest. Buys the latest equipment without concern of making it pay.

Once you decide you are going to make your art pay, it changes things.

Kip - I find the CS Lewis quote right on the money. Someone might have 50 years experience and give me amazing advice but I might not be ready to take it in yet. What I might need at the moment is the tip from one of my fellow amateurs who just figured something out.

....

You could be a wedding photographer who does the same old package of stuff or you could become something more, something more innovative by re-imagining what wedding photographer can do. Keeping your eye on what the top photographers are offering.

I sold my first piece of artwork when I was 11 or 12 years old. Was a 22" x 28" crayon drawing of a greyhound dog(running) and was used in a feed mill window to promote dog food. Cheers,did I become a professional? I studied for 4 years in an accredited (guess means I got a degree) art Institute. I worked for many years as a designer/illustrator and earned my living doing art. I also entered art exhibitions over all my years as an artist, sold some, but not always. So I like to consider I'm a professional in the field of art.
Here on FAA it doesn't matter, you can be an amateur(just beginning) or a professional(with sales and years of experience). There is no separation of the two. And either has a chance to sell....PRINTS or an original thru direct contact with the artist/photographer.

I don't know if it's necessary to draw the line, sort to speak... I don't call myself one or the other. I'm a full time artist and make my living at doing this....or at least try too although my sources of income might suggest otherwise but it all comes from the arts in one way or another... visual arts, performance arts, literary arts...

Interesting question Ed... no solid answer on this end.

Cheers, Barbara

I don't see it as anything solid. Just perhaps an attitude to stay curious, passionate and as the MIT Media Lab puts it - be a live long kindergartner. https://llk.media.mit.edu/

Always learning and discovering new things to get excited about and try. Without the baggage of having to know everything.

If you receive money for your work, you are considered a professional. Amateurs get trophies and ribbons.

First you believe you are a professional and act upon it.

Great link Ed.... check this out... I want to make one of these for my granddaughter....so cool https://llk.media.mit.edu/projects/3868/

Now that would be fun to play with.

Cheers, Barbara

Hiya Ed,

I am a professional artist. I have supported my family, paid for my home and purchased all my cars with money made from my art. Years ago I was an amateur but being a professional is better for many more reasons than I care to mention.

My income is currently from selling my work and my teaching but that wasn't the point of this discussion. Oh well.

Amateur and I'm feeling like I have nice friends. I have some pieces that I know aren't grand but I have them posted on my webpage because I started my page to not only sell but to showcase my work as I learn. However I do share my best pieces (or what I think are) in groups and I'm feeling frustrated cause they go unnoticed to others work. Guess I am far off from being a professional photographer.

"In your approach to art do you see yourself as an amateur or professional? Before you answer consider these quotes:"

Why should we consider the quotes first...are they some kind of "professional" on the subject? ;))



Approach it any way you want...but the final product better be "professional" in appearance ;)

Edward,

RE:.."That's all any of us are; amateurs."

That, I assume means we all have something to learn.

But if one is confident enough in one's self, to be committed,..that one is a Professional

I have studied art all my life. I wanted to be a graphic designer and illustrator for as long as I can remember. I got a little side-tracked after high school, but eventually found my feet back on the right path, got my BFA degree, and began making money in design and illustration right away. I spent years in advertising and marketing, creating art for businesses. Now, I create art for myself, but it people seem to like what I'm doing. Still, it took years of painting before I crossed the line from calling myself an amateur to professional.

One has to be ready to learn new things. In these days of rapidly changing technologies one can't just master one thing and declare themselves a pro. It takes constant learning of new skills. What may have worked 10 years ago is now obsolete.

...

As a carry over from another thread. You can wait until you're a professional writer to start blogging or you can jump in and start doing it like an amateur.

professional amateur.

So true, @Edward Fielding. To be a graphic designer, you need guru knowledge of art and design software. I laugh when I read job postings for graphic design and they want them to be able to do copywriting as well. Most likely, either the design or the writing will be amateur. Can't have both. And 10 years ago, a painter just needed to know how to paint, but now, knowledge of Photoshop is crucial if they want to sell online.

Just because there is alternative, more modern technology doesn't mean that an earlier technique is obsolete. Eugene Atget, for instance, continued to produce wonderful prints of early 20th Century Paris using the salt printing process long after it was obsolete, but you won't find museums dumping his prints because his methods were "obsolete".

Does it detract from my "professionalism" (if I am regarded as professional) that this image was shot with on a large-format film with an emulsion that dates from the 1950s?


For that image I had to use a hand-held meter, select a filter and adjust for it, develop and scan the film and then process the final product in Photoshop. Anyone can argue that a very similar shot could have been taken on a 50MP camera, had a B&W filter slapped on it and be uploaded without further ado, but which of those processes is more "artistic"?

Is it more or less professional and/or artistic to know about salt prints, darkroom techniques and how to use a t/s lens to correct for perspective and DoF, or to rely on photoshop?

Now, if you are talking about wedding or industrial photographers (or graphic designers) they do need to keep up with the latest techniques and trends to keep their customers happy; but this is meant to be an artists' site and, surely, if an artist choses to use an old technique as a medium of expression that is entirely valid.

It's not artists who have constantly to be learning new skills to keep up with the market (though there's nothing to stop them doing that), it's commercial workers in the media industry.