What Is The Reason?

An interesting question, M. Danl. We are not encouraged to sign our work, I guess... but you make a good point :D

- Richard Reeve
ReevePhotos.com

some people don't want to pollute the work. some people don't know how. in your own example i don't see one. many are photos and many feel they don't want it. mine is faded in the corner, you have to look hard for it.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I have been asked by a few sites not to sign them. That and I just don't care for them. In the process of reviewing images I often see signatures that are distracting and take away from the image.

Do they forget? no
Are they not proud of their accomplishments? no
Shy? no
Or just don't care? no

Most likely the reason is that these are prints, not originals. With photographs/prints, a signature is not traditionally done on the image but in the margin.

I only sign my pastels after I photograph them. I sometimes enter images into competition, and many artists don't want their signature showing. It sometimes can create a bias with judges...either good or bad.

Because if your selling prints, its not a real signature, just a digital picture of a sig. If you had a choice to buy a famous photo or painting with a real signature or a digital one for the same price, which one would you buy?

I prefer to sign mine. But if the painting is so small that my signature looks like a big ol honkin eyesore I just digitally sign it.

I think a lot of artists just don't know if they should or not, it is more ignorance that anything else, With regards to originals, I think it brings more authenticity to it because it is done when the paint on the canvas or panel is still wet, Signing the back of an original can be forged easily after the fact. In my personal Bio I emphasize the fact that all work is signed by me.

When I forget to sign an original someone always reminds me, they just expect it. Since the prints available here are scans of my originals the signature is there. I've seen a lot of prints that have the artists signature from the original reproduced as is. That doesn't make it an original signature anymore than the print is an original, but people do expect to see the artist's signature on a painting, original or print.

I do forget sometimes. But usually I put it in the corner and fade it until it can just be seen.

Prints don't get signed within the image, but rather in the margin or on the mat, like Edward said. If I had access to the original before it was framed, I would sign it. But the nature of POD prohibits that. It's a sacrifice I am willing to make to avoid the hassle and responsibility of fulfilling orders myself.

I would sign my photos if I could get my hands on them. If I could make a separate digital signature for each print size I might consider signing beforeI upload. But I find a too large signature to be distracting on a print. And too small looks dumb. That's why. Isn't that obvious?

Signing photos is not traditional BTW. I do it at the request of my collectors on prints done at my direction and after I inspect them. But in some circles it is considered amateurish to sign a photo. People looking for me can and do find me without the aid of a signature.

All of my original paintings are signed. This is a POD site. I just don't care if a signature of my work shows up or not on a print.
If someone wants my signature, I will gladly offer a hand signed reproduction that has been inspected and numbered, at a different price schedule.

I get a couple emails a year asking me why an image in one of my ads is not signed or why they could not find the signature. I have actually lost sales because the potential buyer did not see the signature. I have has people refuse to buy a print because there could no see a signature.

I have never had anyone say they would not buy a print because they could see a signature. I am not saying that has not happened because I wouldn't know it did unless they told me.

What we are talking about is what we used to refer to as "plate signed" instead of hand signed. Meaning that the original work was signed and when they made a "plate" of the image for printing, the signature would show up in all the prints. On a POD site there is no hand signing going on. The signature will only be there if you sign the original piece so it is in the file when you upload it. This would be the same as the "plate" signed open editions of the past.

I know for a fact that a lot of people want to see signatures just for the bragging rights. I have had people tell me that.

I see the example in the image above where they have signed in the margin. Some people sign on the mat. I don't like either one. When you sign on the mat and the people want to change the mat, the signature is lost. When you sign in the margin you have eliminated the choice of framing/matting right up to the edge of the image. I also don't like seeing signatures on the back.


Of all of the expensive, signed and numbered, limited editions I sell, I can't think of any of them are not signed in the image itself. Almost all of them are using a black sharpie. One exception is one artist signs in gold ink.

There other reasons to sign your work. One of the most mentioned is the fact that it gets your name out there. This is a good reason to sign on the front, in the image.

Signing with the copyright symbol © following your signature is still seen quite often. You can make the © by holding down your function and alt key and use you numbers pad and type 00169. The thought is that this will strength your copyright protection.

If you belong to an association of some standing in the art world, you can also add their initials behind your signature.

I sell a lot of western art and several of the artist sign with the Cowboy Artists of America initials.

Artist Signature Identification from Artbusiness.com http://www.artbusiness.com/signart.html

Signing your art is an integral part of the creative process. The instant you apply your name to a piece of your art, you declare it to be officially finished and ready to be exhibited in public. No matter what your signature looks like, what form it takes or where you put it, no work of your art is complete without one.

Your signature identifies your art for all time as having been created, completed and approved of by you and you alone (with the exception of collaborative works, of course). When someone wants to know who created your art, your signature tells them. When someone sees your art for the first time and wants to know who the artist is so that they can see more or learn more, your signature helps them find you. When you're not around to identify your art (and sooner or later you won't be), your signature identifies it for you.

Last post on the subject, promise! lol

Here is another reason why I know for a fact that signatures are important to collectors.

Every once in a while someone will buy one or several plate signed but not hand signed open edition prints by the same artist. Then they will tell me they must have the delivered by a certain date because they were meeting the artist that day and wanted to get them signed.

Floyd

Thanks for presenting strong reasons to sign.

Danl,

I sign everything. It is very useful to see Floyd talking about people buying who want signatures.

I have skipped two images out of 12 where I did not sign them.

One is the Global Warming piece. I felt it was a universal statement. I would like it to be used one day
by any global warming movement. So I left off the signature.

The other was The Girl with a Pearl Earring. Perhaps it is the most beloved Vermeer. I did the least work
on it of any of my pieces. I feel slightly uneasy about my ownership of that derivative work. So
out of a deep respect for Vermeer, whose work clearly is in the PD, I left off my signature.

Also the Young Lady aka the Pearl Earring piece is black in the lower right hand corner. I feel like any signature
would have to be brighter, obvious it can not be black on black. It would take away from the image.




Dave

Sometimes I ask myself the opposite question which is, "Why the H-E-double hockey sticks did I sign that painting"? :-)

Seriously though I always sign my work when I feel it is finished using just my last name preceeded by the copyright symbol.

Bill Tomsa

http://billtomsa.blogspot.com/

Danl, there are two distinctly different markets. I most certainly can understand why originals and numbered prints should be signed. Clients pay well for these and deserve to have a signature, as well as documentation.
I see no reason to have mass produced POD prints show a printed signature.

...unless, of course, artists need to feel more important than they truly are, in a vast sea of obscurity.


AHHHH, copyright....I forgot to mention that my signature ALWAYS included my copyright.

Indeed, if I'm buying an Ansel Adams or Van Gogh for $40 I definitely want the signature on it. lol

Selling POD prints with an artist signature would only dilute the value of a real signature.

Ideas on artistic value are kind of dicey.

Prints or originals.

Dave #Bridburg

I sign my images and limited edition prints. Mass produced releases are not signed or if they are it's because the collector sends to me and I sign then and send back.

Ed, there's this company in China that will paint you an original van Gogh fo about $40....signature included!!
now THAT is a deal!

Ed,

Do you sign any of your work?

Why not?

Dave

http://anteism.com/blog/glossary-of-art-print-edition-terms

"Why do artists really sign prints? It makes them worth more$$$? Makes the print more of an original because the artist has come in contact with the print? To authenticate ? I think a signature should be used as a method of showing that the artist has approved the print. The artist is stating that this print is of quality in visual craftsmanship and longevity. "

LOL.....

Thank you, dear Roger......the recent photo at an important family celebration....glad you like me this way....

So often , by just not getting around to it, originals of mine get sold without a signature on it...

I enjoy the image, centuries from now, of "experts" arguing whether a particular piece is a "Swezey" or not.


Since the inception of the internet, though, I'm constantly being forced to find a way to sign pieces I made and sold decades ago


Edit:

Viva,

Love your new smiling avatar

Painters yes - photographers no.
Check out Digimarc encrypted watermarking if you are worried about theft.
This is a POD. Its purpose is to sell PRINTING and framing materials. We are salesman. Artists should suffer, starve, cut off their ears, and seek out brick and mortar galleries who can make money off of you. But here, we are merely competing for someone's wall space. No reason to get snooty about it all.

I forgot to add - NOBODY wants you taking a sharpie out and signing their pillow or duvet. If its important to them they will send it to you. I've yet to get a request for a signature. They know who took the picture. Its not a lack of pride. And if you enter a photo in a contest you do NOT sign it.

Nice one, Robert! Thanks for bringing us all back to earth :-)

Just be sure to use a archival sharpie. Not like this fail:



If the artist signature shows up on a duvet or pillow what will that mean at the future auction? Will an iPhone 4 cover bring in more $$ with a signature or without? Buyers should keep this in mind when cropping.

Thank you,Robert

A couple of years ago I had a client order a series of my barn shots. They wanted them signed before framing so I had them sent to me, and then I signed them and delivered to the client. Are they "more valuable?" Well, since I sell so few photos the are "rare" but probably not. As an artist I like to see my signature on my work, but POD does change things in most circumstances.

I paint and draw, I then take a photo of the image and toss it onto this sight. The Pod print, if produced, is not my work. It is merely a reproduction of my work. Sort of like if you have a work reproduced in a magazine or book. There is no need to sign it. I don't know about the artist on the site who only produce pod prints that has always been an odd concept to me.

This has been a very interesting thread. (smile)

I have nothing of value to add because I tend to find all the ideas and opinions interesting.

Some of those opinions that have been shared are ideas that I think needed to be there for a lot of us who read the forums but rarely respond...so thank you to those of you who said the unthinkable that we all think a lot about while we read the provocative thoughts of some of our fellow artists.

From this thread, I've decided to sign all of my work while it's wet, although it will be a much smaller signature.

I know several artists that copy the masters and I've always felt perplexed why they don't create their own originals...that said, some of the copycats do a better job than the original artists in some ways. LOL...still I don't think it's stupid to copy one of the masters. This art does sell! JUST DON'T copy Disney characters!

Anyway, thank you for all the entertainment folks.

I am not having a go at anyone's art, but on the topic of signing and derivative art, some of the thinking seems to be stuck back in the 1960-90's before Giclee printing.

There is not a nickel worth of difference between a $5, open edition print and a $5000 signed and numbered print assuming they are both printed on the same printer. I know that is the case where I have my work printed. The idea that the signature was saying the artist is approving the quality of the work was valid way back before Giclee printing where there was a dozen different quality levels of printing. That is just not the case any more.

At all of the major publishing houses where they sell very expensive limited editions and lower priced open editions, the prints are printed on the same printer.

And why are the same people saying over and over again that the signature will not add value to a POD print when I have not seen one person even suggest it would.

I know I haven't. What I said was that some people like to see the artist's signature and they will maybe not buy because they do not see on. I am not talking a hand signed signature, I am talking the plate signed signature as I described above. I know this for a fact because I have had people tell me how important the signature was to them.

As for signing in the margin as was diagramed in the sketch above, that too is a thing out of the past.

Years ago before acid free matting, all museum quality framing left one inch or more of the paper showing all around the paper artwork. They did not bring the mat right up to the image because the acid in the mat would "burn" into the image and destroy it. Seeing that the margin was there, people signed there. But that is not the case anymore. I sell limited editions all the way up to $5000 and more and all of them are signed in the image, including photographs.

With today's acid free, museum quality mat board you can bring the mat right to the edge of the image and it will not suffer any acid burn like it used to. So if you sign in the margin below the image, once again, that is less desirable then having the signature in the image where it can be seen when matted to the edge of the image.

I did museum quality framing for all of the local museums and art galleries in my area for years and years. I know a little bit about what I am talking about.

The originals I own and have hanging on the wall have the signature, title and edition number below the image and in pencil. Pencil is harder to scan and doesn't chemically alter with time.

Looks great and does not distract from the artwork or react with the print.

Prints I've seen in museums are also displayed this way. Often with the mat not even touching the print. I don't care if someone won't buy a cheap print because there is no signature, they can purchase a more expensive edition.

Ed,

It depends on how mass market the artist wants to get. POD has large elements of mass manufacturing to it.

I am not addressing the signature part directly YET.

I mean that if you price high you lose sales. People will not OFTEN follow. The paper as Floyd is saying is the paper.
And most collectors are not rich by any stretch of the imagination.

I am not saying exclude limited editions. I am saying since the paper is the paper and a PS signature is something many want, and
free advertising, then it is a matter of price points.

I am not sure I am following you anyway, are you saying you have open ended prints and limited editions of the same images?

The paper is the paper.

Dave

Art sells its self or not.

Signatures tie the artist's work together into a portfolio
to some extent.

POD is not the topic, but in large part has to be because this is a POD site.

Just an aside, I am getting a lot more data from Google Analytics. My most interested
market is the News/Weather watching audiences. Decently low bounce rates, long times
looking at my art and I only have 12 images up so far. High page views rate.

My thinking on this has been to simply use Twitter to follow as many @CNN followers as possible.

After talking price points and volume, I am drop my prices to what Floyd suggests. Will write you Floyd
for the price schedule you generally see in the market place for common prints.

I feel lucky the CNN crowd is paying any attention and a good bit more than anyone else. It is the broader market.
I dropped my auto DM on the app I use on Twitter. Instead of folks dropping me as I follow them they need to
see my profile more often than not. Curiosity killed the cat.

Well I am straying from signatures to marketing. They are in the same ballpark.


ADDITION: Floyd I just copied your prices. In line with the general market. Thanks,

Dave

I don't think buyers care about a signature one way or the other. They just like what they see or not as an object to hang on their walls.

... unless, of course, you are a famous dead artist, and the buyer is a collector.

And, as someone already pointed out, this is a print-on-demand business website, and so I tend not to care too much anymore about a signature on the items that people buy here.

... as long as I get the proceeds of the sales.

My original paintings, on the other hand, all have my signature. ... different beast.

Robert,

Curiosity killed the cat. People look automatically for the signature.

And like dating today, people then Google everything they want to know about
the artist. Why not?

I wanted to know a woman a few years ago, but by the time I went up to talk to her
for the third time it got very strange. I knew from Google a good bit about her background.
I was haunted by Google. It was very very awkward for me. I had no intentions of stalking her, but
there I was cyberstalking. Creepy.

Robert somewhere out there are your cyberstalkers, your job is to find them. LOL

Dave

David B.,

How have you arrived at your conclusion that, "People look automatically for the signature"?

Are you sure that this is not just wishful thinking?

... maybe live in a close encounter with a physical painting, ... sometimes, ... but on the internet? ... print-on-demand? ... consumer driven?

I doubt it.


As for cyber stalkers, I will send out brain waves immediately to foil them.

People look at a work of art whether it is a print or an "original" in the same manner. Eye control is the same
for either venue. If people like a work of art, and perhaps if not, people look to see if they know the artist.

Is this the long lost Rembrandt that Molly said Grandfather had stashed away? Or is it just another
no name artist who could not fight his/her way out of a paper bag? Who made this piece of......

Dave

Robert,

A new waitress at the diner wants to go out with me. She has had some personal problems,
but is doing well. I like her, but she needs time. We have discussed things.

She asked my friends about me. They told her I work as an artist. She has my domain name.
I saw her today and asked her if she had seen my art. She sputtered slightly and said not yet, too
busy. And she is, she works like a dynamo. I also found out this new waitress has two boys just today.
I was not cyber stalking her.

I donno about this......

Dave......are you reading my signature??????

Dave

Point made

I've had several instances where I had forgotten to add a signature and was reminded to put one on by the collector. In fact I was scolded for only putting on my last name and the buyer insisted on me signing both first and last. I'm hardly known outside friends and family. People just expect art to be signed by the artist. I only paint originals, but the painting gets scanned after the signature goes on so it's on my images here. I think digital is only different in that the signature has to be added digitally, I think people still want to see that signature POD or not. If the signature is small and unobtrusive what's the harm in including it anyway?

Robert

If you want a print of Warhol or Max or who ever, you want to know it is a print of a Warhol or Max. There are so many digital artists out there that imitate art for a lesser price. People are often fooled into believing that it is a Warhol or Max. Same style. Same technique. Same everything. Perhaps the subject matter is different, One could swear it was the work of a noted artist. However, if the artist's signature was printed with the piece, it may deter others from copying it.

My wife's boss had us over for a party. I complemented her newly purchased artwork. It had a signature and she makes a lot of money so I was interested in where she found it. "Pier One" she says.

Almost anybody could fake a famous signature with photo editing software.

Once proximity to the physical work itself and a lineage of reliable contacts between the work and the buyer are removed, it just seems not to make all that much difference anymore.

If I deal face-to-face with tangible, original media, then my signature has more significance. Otherwise, I could be just anybody claiming to be who I am.

Ed Pier One? A step up from FAA?

LOL

Dave

Hey it looked good. If she didn't tell me I would have thought it was an original work.

I will say this about signing, one never knows when or if they will "make it" as an artist. We are fortunate to own some nice works. One is a Miro with his signature on the work, in pencil. I thrill when in my minds eye I see Juan Miro signing that work of art.