You Know Too Much, You Suck!

I think you have hit on something here Ronald, sure to stir the pot. For the (many) years I have been painting there have always been the opportunities to learn how to. How to do this or do that in a technical way. As if merely technical mastery would then create good art. I do believe one must know there craft but a work done with masterful technique, and no life to me is a failure. But the "old masters" crowd will surely disagree.

But knowledge is power, lol.

On the flip side, ignorance is bliss.

Mastery of the craft is only a start, it is like a writer who is very good with grammar, great and good! Whats next? look before you leap. He who hesitates is lost.

The more I learn, the less I trust myself.

Joe Burgess
jb-imagery.com

Are you asking how much art training do you need? I don't think you can have too much. The greatest artists mastered the technical and then took it further…or backed away from it…but they had the knowledge to know the difference.

Now in my 80th year of Life....Mostly involved in the visual world, one way or another.

Allow me to say,

I was the recipient of a marvelous Art education

It has never been a case of "What I learned."

It has always been of "What I DISCOVERED"..

And that made all the difference.

Right from the first year attending the very special High School (High School of Music&Art now Laguardia High School, NYC), preconceived blinkers were removed from our eyes, and instead of having it replaced with a new set of rules (blinkers)..we were encouraged to SEE...A Clear Open Eyed FREE Vision.

As a result throughout the following 65 years, I rebelled against anyone telling me how and why things are or should/shouldn't be the way they are or seemed to be..

Diane, so right. But I think Ronald's question goes beyond jusy how many classes or where one went to school.

Jani, you have kicked the sleeping giant. One needs to understand how, and one needs to understand why and why not, certainly. The conundrum comes in when you see people say things like "well, I really don't care about the rules, this is just how I do MY art" then set back and wait for the MoMA to "discover" them. If you can't be told, you can not learn.

I can look back (can't we all) and see things I did many years ago. In some cases I wonder why I am not working that way anymore, even though I feel I have grown. I can also see how I was doing things then that allowed me to grow. BUT I grew in leaps by attending graduate level course at SFAI and SAIC. NOT because the instructors told me HOW to paint, but because they led me to see how to paint better.

Anyone who arrives at a place and stands there, will soon find the rest of the world has moved on.

My art is continual discovery - I have a BFA - earned - after I was reasonably successful as a water color artist for over 10 years - it nearly ruined me - the 'education' - perhaps what I didn't 'know' I didn't need to.

Roy, interesting that you said your BFA nearly ruined you. Each time I went to college and got a degree it took a few years for me to be able to paint decently again. I think the reason may have been just the sheer volume of information I had to process. On the other hand once I got past this hump I feel my work grew marketably in both concept and quality. It has been 24 years since I finished my MFA and I still am in the process of learning but these days the pace is much more casual.

Sometimes you get so involved in one subject that you loose touch with reality. It's good for the soul to pull back and do a reality check. Am I full of crap? I'm I so lost within my little world that I've lost touch with regular folk?

Edward, I agree with you about self-imposed reality checks. But I also think being out of touch with "regular folk" is one of the hallmarks of a great artist.

Joe Burgess
jb-imagery.com

It is not the job of the great artist to bring themselves down to the "regular folk " level but rather to give the "regular folk" something to reach for. So I agree with Joe on this one!

define 'regular folk' I think I might be one of those. :P

Melissa, most of us are, even though we want to "stand away" as it were.

Regular folk know how much a gallon of milk costs.

Edward is that regular or organic?

Perhaps you can over-think your art, but as a rule, most bad artists don't know or think enough, and most mediocre art doesn't have anything much of value to say.
Thinking, perhaps particularly on editing what is published, would greatly improve the overall quality of art, in my opinion.
Before art can speak to you, it should really have something worthwhile to say.
Yes, art can be primitive, and natural, and elemental, and flow from non-linear thought and emotion, but those kinds of thinking and knowledge are important to art.
Consider my vote for thoughtfulness, whatever form that may take.

Knowing your tools, knowing how the attributes of your art interact with each other, these kinds of knowledge can be important.

Thinking and knowledge are closely interrelated, and so my answer to a re-stated question on thinking (vs knowledge) is an attempt to shift that perspective back.

I can't remember who tossed this quote up on the thread earlier but it works quite well here. "Beware of artists, they mix with all classes of society and are therefore most dangerous". Queen Victoria. Point being artist live at one level due to a lack of money but must mix with the upper class since they are the ones who primarily purchase art. So artist in some ways can be said to have no class. (Take that as you wish!)

Gregory, good points!

Ronald,

I have been having my mid life crisis for a while now.

I made a call to an older good friend of the family last night. He considers me a son.

I had been looking into a Vanguard European mutual fund. I wanted his opinions.

I kept discussing the US FED policies from the crisis in 2009.

My friend finally stopped me and said you care about the past, I dont I care about how it will perform going forward.

You can not fix the past. You need to know where you are going from here.

In art terms that means will your aesthetic matter and why? What did you put together as your work in a given
new piece of work.

Someone really nice the other day was asking about Happy art. Most of what we think of POSSIBLY as happy
art is flowers. To make only flowers, not true of the poster mind you, To make only flowers would be leaving out
a large part of what do you want make going forward? Flowers? Or what?

I take longer periods of time to think about what I want to see my finished product look like. I dont slap a few ideas together.

So if an artist's work "sucks' maybe it is because they are slapping work together. Timing or taking time for the process
going forward is important.

Dave

David for most of us that is true. I don't think the time taken or the amount of thought involved equates quality in art every time however. Lets say you have a tiny little brain like mine. I could think "deep" thoughts forever and it might not improve the work. Each artist has their way to approach and create their work. What works for you might not work for me and so on. As you stated the process of creation is very important but there is a great deal of variance involved.

I can't imagine how any amount of knowledge could be too much....unless it induces "analysis paralysis".

I think that many artists have the philosophy of being a vessel. Not too concerned with the final product as much as the process of creating it. They can churn out one piece after another and are only satisfied when they're doing it. Little forethought and intention; a lot of action. I understand and respect this mentality, but feel that it generates a lot of "noise" within the community.

That being said, I've been curious about exploring that aspect of myself.

Joe Burgess
jb-imagery.com

Ah Joe, the old process Vs. product thing! I am old fashioned enough to value the product, it is after all that which goes out into the world and expresses my own voyage to the world. I am modern enough to value the process but find the importance to be more therapeutic for me than anything else.

Honestly no matter how much you had absorbed, understand, vibed, those technical art techniques. What matter most is how you would be able to apply it, and create that masterpieces.From there you would have what you call your own "Style".

I would think if you seek someones opinion it is based on the idea that their opinion imparts some knowledge to you. In any case there must have been a time where you learned to trust yourself and your own opinion, (based on the accumulation of knowledge) more so than others. This transition , to me at least defines the difference between being more of an art student to being more of an artist.

Does an artist ever stop being a student of art? I can't imagine I'll ever exhaust all the learning possibilities in my lifetime.

David, the learning for a lifetime part was covered. Question up now is when does one make the transition from art student to artist?

I know PHD's in Art who suck at creating art, but they sure know a lot. I know PHD's like my sister who create amazing works of art. She likes my stuff, even though her head is shoved full of 15 years of knowledge and mine in bits and pieces I read and one year of post-undergrad work in Ancient art and architecture. I think the answer is it depends. Look at the masters. Some were self taught. Some were studied. It really honestly depends less on the artist and more on the innovation and the world in which the artist creates....

When does one go from art student to artist? The minute they are born. No degree makes one an artist. Maybe it qualifies you to teach in within certain organizations but lack of degree doesn't prevent someone from being an artist.

How about when does someone develop their own identity or vision as an artist? Perhaps when they stop copying other people style? When they stop asking for critiques?

Bingo!!! We have a winner..

Edward Fielding

I think you made an excellent point..

Kim there is no PHD in studio art, only in art ed. History stuff like that. The MFA is the terminal degree in studio, FYI. Edward the point has nothing to do with a degree. This point is when do you progress from being an art student to an artist. I have known people who even late into their carriers have to depend on others for their guidance. There is a great deal to learn in this field not only technically and formally but conceptually as well. One is not born a brain surgeon or a professional baseball player, it takes time effort, study and practice. Big mistake to think art is different.

Ok, going to try this from a slightly different angle. There are how to draw books on everything. For example let's say you want to paint a landscape. you get your how to draw trees book, your how to paint skies book, your how to paint rivers book, your how to paint clouds book, your how to paint mountains book and so on. Each book has useful information in it and you might seek some kind of reference from time to time but when do you make the transition where you realize "Hey I can draw, I don't need all of these books!" Mind you this time is not the same for everyone but how much info do you need? I personally had to learn the basics of the craft of painting, I did this through college. I learned a great deal of the conceptual side of art in grad school. Once I finished that I felt that I was self reliant as an artist. Odd thing was about six years after finishing an MA I found myself in an MFA program, something I felt was a waste of time and money. What happened there was interesting in that I found myself learning a great deal more about art and yes ultimately I feel it made me a better artist. These days I just learn and study what I wish as I slime through the process of art. Most of the time I don't ask advice especially conceptually but I still learn. Can you over think art? Do you over think art? Is this conceptual thought process new and only seen in "modern art" or has it been around forever and is part of the basic makeup of art? Could you care? Are you headed to get a glass of wine or a beer at this moment?

You've confused me with the book thing Ron. Anybody that only studies books that tells him/her how to draw or paint specific things is always going to struggle to create art. I don't believe there will ever come a time when I'll want to stop studying books on art. I may be reviewing books that focus on technique a lot less than I used to but I'll always be learning and seeking more information.

Sorry David, tried to give an example to clarify the thought. Might have just muddled it up more!

We are in a constant learning mode, if not consciously, then subconsciously....every time you look at a sunset, you should be realizing something new. every minute you are alive and experiencing life, you are learning....so i guess when you stop living, you stop learning.
the end.

Knowledge can have many sources, it doesn't matter. What's different between us is what we do with the knowledge we have. I can teach you mathematics, but only you can incorporate that knowledge into the tool belt of your mind. Knowledge is the secret code. But even if you can decipher it do you understand it.

There are all kinds of people in any profession that although impeccably credentialed can't actual do or understand their field. In fact we'd probably be stunned at the 'empty' credentials out there.

In math it's easy to remember how you just memorized a procedure but really had no idea what you were doing, like counting. So one guy aces the test but can't make change for the burger he flipped and the other guy that got a C but understood counting goes to Wall Street. It's not any different in art. Yes there is knowledge that will open new worlds. But even if you don't know where you got that knowledge from, it only matters that you know to use it.

--Mary Ellen Anderson

We love art big time and I see you do as well Ron and everybody else too. With many it's a kind of religion with no room for blasphemy.

To simply draw a drawing of something or idea is a great thing if one can "get into it" for the whole of the experience. During this process there is no room for thinking. I think it might be compared to sex in that it's a very personal thing.

"Even the least skillful artist can draw a conclusion." (™)

My African Leopard Tortoise awakes each morning with the sun in his face. What's on Kobi's mind? He is going to "seize the day".

To know what will and won't work is knowledge and since no one is perfect then there never is enough knowledge. Philosophically then the act of thinking is although the result of knowledge it is not knowledge itself.

If thinking is knowledge in itself than the most important thing to know remains unknown until it is first recognized by some enlightened sense of awareness. Sort of like having a pig roast out on the farm with live music where there was too much BBQ sauce but not nearly enough ribs!(and someone forgot to bring the booze) Either way a loss.

The most important thing is it's altogether on one place to work(art, BBQ ribs, music, booze, happy people, etc). Don't forget the potato salad and cole slaw!

I'm gonna crack open a brew pretty soon myself.

last masterpiece
michael dillon
............a piece to make my mother smile
if there's to be no more
a masterpiece then,worthy of
her refrigerator door
crayola alla prima
a family portrait piece
figures done Picasso style
and colored like Matisse
with purple grass and pink brick house
orange plane in the sky
a yellow dog and big gray cat on the
red walk running by
cursive e's of chimney smoke rise through a flock of v's
flying past a golden sun's
squiggly line degrees
A piece to match as best I could
the art I made back when
my pallett was a cigar box
of crayons to dig in
not too big,maybe eight by ten
construction paper size
seemed to be the best I think
to catch my mothers eyes
she'd place it when I'd finished
with a magnet held in place
among the notes and recipes
she'd always find a space
a special place of honor
like she'd always done before
when she once displayed each masterpiece
on her refrigerator door........

When learning to paddle a canoe, it's good to understand physics, and particularly Newton's laws of motion. It's also good to experiment, and be instructed so you have experiential knowledge of the various techniques that can be used, not all of which are intuitive. (In a "High Brace", you lean way out to the side of the canoe, and plant the paddle as far as you can comfortably reach, and vigorously pull water under the canoe or kayak. This is an excellent maneuver for steadying your craft, in spite of the fact that it begins with what would a rather precarious lean if it were static. It is a dynamic move, and works extremely well. If you do hit a rock, you generally lean toward the rock you hit, not away, to keep from being capsized.) These techniques are easily demonstrated, and imitated and practiced.

However, in an extreme rapids, you can't really "think" about any of this. You must just react instinctively.

I think it's much the same with many kinds of art. You must study and practice the elements of your art, but when doing the actual art, it is often best for it to flow without excessive deliberation. I imagine that this is particularly true with painting and drawing, where time is often of the essence, or you only get one shot at each element. And quite otherwise for digital art, such as photoshop, where ctrl-alt-z allows quick and easy undo of any operation.

Several artists I know spend time and money on workshops in painting, stone carving, bronze casting, ceramics, and mold
aking. I do not need any of those because I know how to do what I need to do technically. I also get bored easily with intense labor. So my conclusion is one needs to know the minimum to function and a little more to specialize. No need to learn any more than necessary!

Vincent, sort of agree.....The only thing is if you don't know something a lot of times you don't know you don't know something. So the something you don't know might be something you would want to know instead of something you don't need to know or something you don't wish to know or even something that you might wish to know if only you knew something about the something in question. That would really be something to know!

That's a very important point Ron, "You don't know what you don't know". I could tell last year I needed input from somebody I trusted, that while my paintings were improving I thought they probably needed a bit more, but more of what? So I started attending a weekly class with an artist I feel knows a few things that I don't know, and the way the class is structured is that there's no real structure, just work on what you want with some guidance and input from the instructor. The suggestions she's made for my paintings have been relatively small things but they are making a noticeable difference that I consider to be making a significant improvement. Without her help I'm not sure how much longer it would have taken me to get this next level.

i think a formal arts education is to be admired and a great asset! Any kind of degree does transform people. It develops your ability to think. And from what i gather the most successful artists have studied art.

For others who dabble and develop their own kind of creativity, and become proficient, it might be expecting too much to do a degree, esp in later life, and self education can bridge the gap. That might simply be no theory - all practice. Denying creative expression without a degree would be ridiculous. There is also the cost issue for many... And hey! - just doing your own thing is quite fine too. Being obsessed with rules in a creative process might be very inhibitive. It, as usual, might depend upon the individual. And as as the above post (David's) exemplifies, a formally trained artist might help one bring more out of a piece. On the other hand rules might cripple you. so horses for courses etc sink or swim, leap and see. Due respect. And without the education most of us will not fully understand the art! but hey, will we ever understand all if it...? As diverse and messed up and creative and unusual and simple and intricate and naive and masterful and humorous and profound... as we are!

I have never taken an art class before, i would like too. i would like to learn the nuts and bolts of the types of art I'm trying to do.I would like to paint but i don't even know where to start brushes ,what brands of paint to use, how do i clean my brushes, if i want to really want to paint without taking a class i have to learn all that myself. How i have learned so for is i go to art supply stores where i buy pastels, paper, ect.. and i ask them what i need or i go to a frame shop where they help me frame as long as theres a good vibe and its fun, and if not i go to a different store! I get knowledge anyway i can the computer,this discussion,friends as long as its fun and not so serious. I think it depends on the teacher,other students,and the vibe. good,fun,happy! i don't have time to go to a class but if i did id have to find the right one!

One can study the works of art made by others which interests them to learn the most. Imitation and copying is the best teacher in studio apart. Teachers who guide students in any field provide the best opportunity for aquiring knowledge I believe. For art philosophy and history one must read to learn.

Blaine you say?:

"but i don't even know where to start brushes ,what brands of paint to use, how do i clean my brushes,"

I my opinion, you are asking the wrong questions. The materials you use can be important but what is most important is HOW you use the materials you have. Even a beginning paint set and a bit of reading on the net will get you started. Who gives a flaming leap which brand of paint, which type of brushes, or whether it is canvas, board, or paper. Just Paint! Most local high schools have some type of adult learning, often beginning drawing and painting and they cost anywhere from $15 to $30.

Blaine,
You're doing just fine with the art supplies you have, but.... since you want to expand beyond that: The people at art supply stores are a good source of information on which art supplies to get, and how to use them. Just don't get sold on a lot of expensive stuff that you won't use.

I still use the cheapest acid-free drawing paper I can find, for drawing. Do use real drawing paper (not copier paper, for example) because drawing paper has a better surface. For drawing with pencil, I use Ebony pencils, I can get better gradations of shading with them than the #2 pencils children use at school. To start, I would not recommend buying a pencil set with different hardnesses of lead, it's a pain to change out pencils and remember what each pencil does in terms of making lines and shading. Ebony pencils are relatively inexpensive, and you only need one. Get a good sharpener, it makes a big difference to keep your pencil the same amount of sharp throughout the whole drawing. Don't use a super-sharp point, it digs up the paper, and the super-sharp point is gone after making about three lines... you'll spend all your time sharpening your pencil. Do learn drawing skills, it's very frustrating to paint if you can't draw the things you want to paint.

I paint with acrylics... which are a good medium to start with (I think) because you don't need a lot of oils and solvents, you can just use water, and you can clean your brushes with water. It's easier for beginners to use than watercolor, because if you make mistakes, you can let it dry and paint over the mistakes. Just don't let the acrylic paint dry in your brushes, that will totally ruin your brush. I do what they tell people not to do and leave my brushes soaking bush-down in water while I'm working on a painting, so the paint won't dry in them. You can buy pads of canvas-paper at the art supply store. That will get you the texture of canvas, without the cost of canvas. Tape the piece of canvas paper onto a hard surface
(a dollar-store clipboard will work, for small paintings), because the paper can bend and warp when it's wet. Once you get so you can make paintings that you think are worthy of framing, then start using canvas-board. It's cheaper, takes less space to store, than stretched canvas, and you can buy cheaper, and a wider variety of, ready-made frames that fit the canvas board. Stretched canvas requires bulky frames that are more expensive. Basically, when framing canvas-board paintings, all you do is take the glass out of the frame and put the canvas board in where the glass was, and install the D-rings and wire.

Pastels can be frustrating if you buy cheap pastels. The cheap ones don't have enough color in them, and the expensive ones are very expensive. If you want to draw using color, I recommend colored pencils. There are plenty of good brands, but I use Prismacolor. I stick with one brand, so if I use up one pencil that has a color I use a lot, I can replace the pencil with another one of that exact color. It's especially nice to be able to replace the exact color if you're doing a big drawing and you use up your pencil before the drawing is finished. A set of about 10 colors should be enough, to start, then add individual colors on an as-needed basis.

There are lots of free tutorials on You-Tube. Some are better than others. For beginning lessons on painting, try the You-tube videos. Some of the oil-painting tutorials work just fine for acrylic painting. You can also thin out acrylic paints with water, and get watercolor effects -- although real watercolor paints do work better if you want to do watercolor.

If you want to learn how to paint, it is good to learn how to mix colors. I think a good starter set would be one that has about 10 colors in it. As you get better you will figure out which colors you need to add to your set to get the look you want.

So... that's my free advice...

Cheryl thanks a lot for the great advice! really helpful thanks for your time u put into that!

and thanks to all of u for your knowledge!