A Few Suggestions To Get You Selling

Marketing 101 by Mike Savad
Why Your Work May Not Be Selling - By Mike Savad
Evaluating Your Own Work To Sell – By Mike Savad
How To Critique And Edit Your Own Work For Better Sales

there are lots of posts about this already, no need to make another thread about it.

are you asking how you should make sales? or are you asking us to help you to sell?

you should only be advertising yourself, not others, or you confuse your brand.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"no need to make another thread about it."

I guess there's also no need to make more art, write more books or compose more songs -- the world already has enough of those things. Right?

Selling art is of major interest to many forum members. There are lots of ways to do it. What works for one person won't work for everyone, so I would say input from every angle is welcome.

If someone dislikes social media but is only doing it because they "think" social media is the answer, they will not be successful. The same for art booths, blogging or creating tons of art for the sake of quantity. If one is going to take on sales and marketing duties, the tasks must resonate with the artist and fit his/her temperament.

If success were the result of a formula, we would achieve it more consistently. In truth, the variables that contribute to the creation of success cannot be fully calculated in advance. In other words, no one has "the answer."

Individual success is always the result of modifying existing strategies to fit with one's own strengths and quirks. That means the "this is what works for me" threads are incredibly valuable. It doesn't matter that someone's promotion idea seems ludicrous and that you would never, ever do it. Another artist may have exactly the right temperament and art to be wildly successful with it.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

So Dan, are you saying an artist that doesn't like marketing at all has no hope of selling no matter what he does? I think that's a dubious thing to say. I beleive there are artists that don't care for marketing but make it work for them. I kind of like blogging, and I do try to say something interesting in my blog posts rather than just spam, and I've been blogging my art for nearly 4 years, haven't had a single sale from it. I have no desire to do twitter, facebook or pinterest, but according to you I shouldn't even try, so I guess I should just give up and be only a hobbiest? Am I misunderstanding you Dan? If so please clarify.

I think we need to celebrate the fact that Mike resisted the temptation to point out Issac's crop marks.

i didn't look that carefully, because i was sure if it was because he wasn't selling, or wanted to join forces or something. but yeah, there are presentation issues with a lot of them.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"So Dan, are you saying an artist that doesn't like marketing at all has no hope of selling no matter what he does?"

David, I'm saying marketing is like exercise. If you hate running but force yourself to do it, you set up stress levels (both physical and mental) that defeat the purpose. You're much better off finding an exercise that agrees with you that you'll do consistently.

There are many ways to the top of the mountain. Stories about the various routes people take to get there are valuable to those on the way up.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

The only "exercise" that would agree with me is the one that has the best "time spent to results ratio". Blogging has not been it. I did read your free e-book, and it is well written and I don't disagree with anything in it, I have read many similar articles before. However when I read things like that I just feel overwhelmed, almost to the point of my chest getting tight and starting to hyperventilate!

the basic steps are:

have a nice variety of good work
have a niche so you can advertise to that group of people
advertise to that group of people.
always upload new stuff and keep it fresh.

make sure the images look good, avatar looks good, bio, descriptions, tags are in good order. always use the same avatar for every place your in. don't advertise other people unless you want your brand confused.

if your good at face to face, do that instead.

blogging is only good if you have lots to say and its interesting. it's not a magic book. if you don't have anything of interest and no one follows, then your wasting time. if you come out really pitchy about selling your stuff, no one will buy it either. its more like a discovery of an artist and your followers will see that. if they see its your work, they will feel tricked and just leave. your better off pushing your stuff every place, get your name known and have other people show off your art (that write blogs for a living).


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

" However when I read things like that I just feel overwhelmed, almost to the point of my chest getting tight and starting to hyperventilate!"

I know! Believe it or not, the chief reason I wrote the book was to help artists rise above the confusing cacophony of marketing "how-to's" to arrive at the all-important "What should *I* be doing" and how that action fits into their sales picture.

That basic understanding is critical, because often the early stages of success look and feel like failure. If you understand what you're doing, why you're doing it and where it fits, you can make an informed decision to keep on going instead of throwing in the towel.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Dan, you really did do a good job of condensing what it takes to successfully market art in that book, unfortunately it really does seem to take so much to market art successfully. I'm afraid I'm just not cut out for it, at least not while I still have to hold down a full time job.

Thanks, David. It doesn't take too much to keep the wheels turning once your marketing is up and running, but getting that machine up to speed takes time and can seem daunting. Just do one good thing at a time -- something that makes sense to you and fits your personality and art -- and eventually your marketing machine is rockin'!


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Dave, having an account up and running on Fine Art America is a great step in that marketing too - so when your chest starts tightening up maybe that's a "glass half full" aspect to brighten up the day! Then when you add a facebook page or a twitter page onto your bio, you can link to and from here. Each time you add a new net presence it works exponentially (if the accounts are half active) to grow your overall profile.

When you have different social media outlets, they actually provide material for each other almost automatically. For instance, when I make a new video, it is always cool to tweet a shout out about that, or post it on facebook and it's not like I'm hitting people over the head with a hard sell sales pitch, trying to get them to buy something.

Slow and steady...

Listen I'm with Dan on this one. As for the negative comments you're entitled to them and I like to take lemons and make lemonade. I just noticed that alot of the discussions about selling work were ones that said "what you could be doing wrong", "what could keep you from selling" and things of that nature. I started a discussion with the opposite connotation "what are some POSITIVE things you could do to get sales" no one likes to be criticized into improvement, we need to be encouraged into successful scenarios.

People want to team up and push sales for each other; I'm all for that, remember there is strength in numbers.

Isaac I with you for the most part but unfortunately my experience in teaming up turned out that my partner walked off with the show and impart just used it to elevate himself. I won't do it again. Sadly but I agree with Mike on that aspect

Only in the art world do people make the suggestion that somehow competitors pushing each other's products is a sound marketing plan. Can you imagine used car dealers doing this? Should Microsoft plug Apple products? This kind of marketing only makes sense if the people involved have complementary products and the marketing is organized and targeted.

Strength in numbers? The problem isn't that there aren't enough artists selling their product.

Yes David you nailed it. Sometimes sculptors and painters can team up. Artists don't think like business people. Often its done to afford the expenses....or if two artists are good friends first and they think they can rise above common sense business.It just doesn't work. Time and time again ego and common sense business wins

there was no negative comments. just because i didn't agree doesn't make it negative. you started a conversation then left for 2 days. at the same time leaving a vague idea of what you want.

being encouraged will not help you. usually if your not selling thoughts of good feelings won't help you to succeed,it's usually something your doing wrong. if you become sad because you asked for a critique - then your skin is far to thin to be successful.

there is no advantage at all advertising each other's work. so i lose sales to you, and you get them - and that helps me how? it sounds more like a lazy man's way to advertise, one person kicks back, while the other one does all the work. the only time that works is if you have two matching products. i sell beds, you sell pillows. i sell tables, you sell magazines. and so on. but we sell the same things, there is no advantage to the other person. the only way another person would really push the other persons work is if they got a cut of the sale. but it would be totally impossible to track that.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I think Isaac's idea can be used like having a subject art Pin board and pinning others works including your own, there is strength in numbers. I've been considering doing this only choosing art myself at FAA for Pinterest for subject boards. I'm sure there are other things that can be done that would not impact the others in a negative way.

David said, "Only in the art world do people make the suggestion that somehow competitors pushing each other's products is a sound marketing plan...This kind of marketing only makes sense if the people involved have complementary products and the marketing is organized and targeted."

Totally agree!

There is alot that goes on in the art world that does not work.The problem is its the way they have always done it, there used to it. Many of us hear are painters and photographers so anything here is not necessarily unbiased as each person is trying to get there own work out there.

Eventually its more like the lottery! These threads get old because they are not reaching potential buyers. Same with twitter and other similar strategies of liking, favoriting, etc. It only benefits the website and very little benefit to the artist who thinks he/she is moving up in the search. Even the artist website have a link back to Pixel so its not even a true standalone marketing tool. 10,000 followers that are artists is not helping me. Versatility does!

it also fails because i created a custom follower base in places like twitter. and the stuff i sell, and the stuff you sell - have a totally different client base. pushing another persons work wouldn't work anyway.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Gee whiz, I didn't think selling art on fineartamerica.com was so serious. I just post random digital artworks here that I have created in the hopes that someone outside of my city will see them. If I make a sale here then GREAT, if not; I won't cry about it. I am a jack of all trades when it comes to art and design, if I choose to do commercial work I can easily adapt to Advertising Graphic Design and I have a separate portfolio site for that. I really don't need fineartamerica.com to support myself, this site is just a bonus for me. Don't get me wrong, I love fineartamerica, I just don't bet my life on it. There are many ways to make $ with art online, and in the real world as well, and I am not limited to selling here, life has a multitude of opportunities to be of service and to help others and be compensated in some way.

You're right Mike, your work and mine is like apples and oranges, you have a very set niche/style and I applaud you for your dedication to that and I also think your work has an amazing asthetic, keep up the good work.

I like having my digital works here because anyone anywhere can view and purchase them in a variety of formats. More art from me to come soon.

-Isaac

Thank you Isaac

for many people this site is a real business, not a passing hobby.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I hope it works out for you Isaac, I really do, however the reality is that most business partnerships end in misery. Even marriages only have a 50% success rate.

I'm no Ford or Coca Cola nor would I want to be. I'm talking about partnering with friends and colleagues on an HONOR and VOLUNTARY basis. I have no competitors in the art or business world and I don't want to be worn out trying to beat such out. If you think partners or collaborators are going to cheat and steal clients, money and ideas then you will always have to combat that and you will work solo as you choose; win or loose. I'm about building and working with a community of artists where we contribute to each others success and triumphs not "mine, mine all mine" lol ok.

but that's just it - it works against you and not for you. i'm not comparing your to a huge famous company. just 2 companies that sell the same exact thing for the most part, sending their customers to the competitor.

friends? then you should go local. online no one is really a friend. a friend is something you can see in person, everyone else is an acquaintance at best, power goes out, friends are gone.

best you can do is to start advertising others on good faith they will do the same, but you know that won't happen. just look at all the follow groups, and the vote groups. if people actually followed those rules like that, you would have 1000s of votes. but a few will do and the rest will take. and that's how it is in the art world. and if there is nothing in it for me to help you, then why help you or anyone at all?

this is a business, this is where my salary comes from. it would be a total waste of my time and energy to advertise someone else. and that's all it comes down too. you have a finite amount of time and energy and i'm not going to waste it on someone else. you can pat people on the head if they make a sale, but who really cares about that? i know i don't care if i'm patted.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I don't know Mike... looks like you and I live in two different universes.

"but that's just it - it works against you and not for you." This is your perception and view and if that's the way it is for you then so be it. I seek (a) mutually beneficial relationship(s) not detrimental ones. We choose who we decide to work with and the paramaters for the working relationship.

I come from a different universe, in mine I have real world friends that are both online and offline friends at the same time, some local and some not so local. I would team up with them (those into the arts which makes up for most of them) or someone I developed a trusted relationship with over time not just some random online stranger. I don't want to "pat someone on the head" for making me a sale like some "golden retriever" that got me a sale and I condescendingly thanked him/her and went about my business, that would be kinda rude don't ya think?

Here are several examples of successful collaborations between artists, some lasting for years:

Andy Warhol and Jean-Michel Basquiat
Robert Rauschenberg and Jean Tinguely
Mark Rothko and Philip Johnson
Luis Buñuel and Salvador Dalí
Gerhard Richter and Blinky Palermo
Chuck Close and Philip Glass
Man Ray and Lee Miller
Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns

Many artists work very well with others; that's part of the reason Andy Warhol created his Factory.

Collaboration and creativity go especially well in music:

Lennon and McCartney
Rodgers and Hammerstein
Elton John and Bernie Taupin
Rodgers and Hart
George and Ira Gershwin
Gilbert and Sullivan
Don Henley and Glenn Frey


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

how many people have you advertised, and how well as it worked for you?
your saying - you would do it - have you actually done it?

listen do what you want to do, but on here, i know for one, i'm not pushing someone else's work.


famous people don't count because people already know who they are and how to separate their work.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"famous people don't count"

Mike, many of the collaborations I listed above started before anyone ever heard of the artists involved. Lennon-McCartney, for instance, worked on songs together for six years before anyone noticed.

You need to remember that not everyone has the same incredibly narrow view of the world as you. There are many paths to the top of the mountain. Collaboration is among the most proven success formulas.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

so dan who do you advertise? who are you sponsoring? how many people on your team? how is it working out for ya?


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"how many people on your team?"

Mike, my core musical partners number about nine and my personal extended depth is about 30, not including their extended partners. I've switched out half the band to cover last-minute gigs. I couldn't do that without working relationships.

This piece was a collaboration with another artist:



We have done several; Sweet Rustic Pine is our most successful.

We had a very cool thread a while back where FAA artists invited us to transform their art; this turned out well, starting with an image from Robert Kernodle:



Rather than you constantly telling people over and over and over and over and over and over how they will fail, why not either try and be helpful or stay out of the discussion?


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

It seems to me that helping others helps yourself generally, whether that be a formal or informal relationship.

What the poster is suggesting I believe is just that, and asking how we can do more of it to everyone's benefit.

Note that people are all dependent on one another, we just pretend we aren't.

Clearly a much more useful conversation than did you do your 40 marketing pushups last week?

i'm not talking about music - in music you kind of have to team up. you can't just be a single player for the most part. i'm talking about art. are you planning on teaming up with isaac?

stay out of it? why? like you stay out of copyright threads? yeah, sure...

there are enough people in my camp that feel the same as i do, if you want to team up go ahead, but i'm not not one of those. i'm always helpful. but i can't pat an idea on the head for the heck of it.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"if you want to team up go ahead, but i'm not not one of those."

Exactly, Mike. You have nothing to contribute here except your negative, narrow viewpoint and Debbie Downer personality.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Ah Mike, you've made this discussion the interesting tug of war that it is.

I have and do work alone.
I have and will continue to collaborate too.

Some of my best work has come from the critique, request and vouching of others. I also enjoy and continue to comment, like and favorite the art of other FAA artists.

Many of my commercial gigs/jobs came from someone vouching for me and my abilities, I've worked in teams at major publishing companies and will NEVER "box myself in". I'm looking to spread the art, love and share the wealth.

Dan and HW: THANK YOU! I know you get it.

-Isaac

you only see one side of it don't you? every thread i'm in, you join - then then put me down specifically. every time. why? i have no idea. you can contribute your ideas, i will mine. you can join with him, i have no plans on it. i see nothing coming from you that really helps the thread.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"every thread i'm in, you join"

Exaggerate much? LOL! Like I have time to correct everything you say :-) No, people are smart enough to figure out your game without my help.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

my game is to help people, you on the other hand like to side with those that like to infringe. but that's you. in any case this banter of yours has nothing to do with this thread.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Collaboration to make art and referrals to help someone looking for something different than what you make are two different things from marketing. We all want to be helpful, but I see no benefit to me in marketing another landscape painter's art, I have a hard enough time marketing my own.

Co-op art galleries are a perfect tried-and-true example of artists teaming up to market themselves.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

They are teaming up to share the cost of rent, and whichever artist is working the gallery that day is usually plugging their own work, not the work of their "partners". This is a very common complaint I hear and read about from artists in coops.

As with any successful collaboration, marriage, partnership or team, each party has to keep their ego appropriate to that union. If anyone gets out of balance for too long, the collaboration fails.

This isn't an issue of whether collaborations work or not. They do, just not for everyone.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

I think both Isaac AND Mike are correct in that from their particular viewpoints and the people they attract will agree with each.

I happen to think Isaac has a great idea. Would it work for me? I would hope so but Mike is a proven big seller so his way absolutely works for him.

We do what is best for us. Period.

Nice thought Isaac.

Isaac,

Did you model this or copy this from Rembrandt? And $122 for an eight inch print? Not the original. I forget by now what
the topic is, but in general it is about your art. Dave

Sorry Isaac I see I am off topic. I went back to the OP.

I dont directly collaborate with anyone. I do not live by any stretch of the imagination
in a vacuum. I steal beg and borrow constantly. I dont mind others doing the same.

I do not market with others. I do compare notes on marketing with others. I often do this behind
the scenes. You are welcome to chip in or ask questions behind the scenes.

Dave

Dan,

The ideas in your Rustic Pine are very good. I played around with such concepts
months ago after seeing some work from the 1980s. I will now try to dig up a link.
No luck. The works from the 1980s were where several photos of a room were
shot. The photos were placed to show different parts of the room together.

For instance a shot of a woman in a chair by the fire place. He son in the next photo
next to the chair. Her husband and daughter in another photo showing them in more
of the room over the chair. etc.....

I know all of that is off topic, but I have an a sort of on topic question. Why did
your image take a collaboration?

Dave

"I know all of that is off topic, but I have an a sort of on topic question. Why did your image take a collaboration?"

Dave, there was no image when we started, the image was a result of the collaboration. We thought working together might be fun and productive, and it was.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

The actual finished piece has roots in cubism. Layers of different perspectives.

I like it. I have a similar model if you will in mind, but I can not find the images. I keep
forgetting the guy's name. He is a New Yorker with a studio in CT.

Dan, Mike is a moving target in one corner of a small room. LOL His negativity is not
a simple matter. Much of what he is doing is a cultural thing, not simple negativity, but
real feedback. I think you know that.

Mike is also playing a large numbers game. That is the only way sales are made on an
ongoing basis. There is no other way. No one just simply has the art that with every view
anyone will buy. How focused any of us are on one customer at a time such as professions
as Mike focuses on or your focus on people upgrading or remodeling a living room per se,
is the norm. The other way that is more successful is mass marketing on SM. Very few
folks here are actually hitting very large numbers on SM. Most of them are not here in this forum.

Mike taps into the larger numbers too some extent.

What Mike has not thought about yet is the possibility that his very large marketing efforts
could or possibly could go much further with lower prices. There are larger numbers of people
on the fence price wise than he has ever imagined. Just my most reasonable guess.

Dave

i can read this you know... dark corner? yeah right, flowers need light and lots of it.

i don't have a numbers game. i started at 1 like everyone else. i make new work every week. its not a matter of having lots, its having a selection of things to choose from. you can have a lot too - that won't give you sales. what will give you sales on an ongoing basis is knowing what people like and what they may hang in their house, and being original at the same time. numbers will not be the magic formula because i was selling just fine when i only had 400 things on another site. it what you make, how you make it, and who you advertise it to.

nor am i negative. why people think a person who speaks their mind is negative is beyond me. and speaking against the grain is not a bad thing.

buying large amounts of viewers, or just accepting any person on social media - is not a way to make sales. if you only have people that like red cards, and your trying to sell blue ones - you won't get any sales.

lower prices???? no.

i got more sales since i increased the price.

people won't buy more from you just because you decreased the price. people who like your work, will buy your work. simple as that. other stores tried the lower profit must mean more sales idea -- and it fails. because even if you made more sales, you don't make more money. and this is my salary, why would i take a cut in pay? especially when they have no problems at all buying my things at the prices i set?

if your going to come up with idea, see if they work on you first.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com