Let's Have A Talk About Pictures With Meaning

Good subject.

Thanks JC, I think so too.

As Artists, we have the ability to illustrate to MILLIONS.
We have the opportunity to influence MILLION.
We have the power to communicate to MILLIONS.
We can produce just about anything to touch MILLIONS.
We can produce even meaningful art which can impact MILLIONS

Thanks for asking my view on this, Bill. From one Bill to another, it is FANTASTIC!!! It is ,without a doubt in my mind, one of the most truthful, beautiful things I've read today. I applaud you, Bill, for stating it and I hope all 100,000 members on FAA will read that list and appreciate the fact they have the freedom to do so. I also hope they have the insight to realize that they can, in their lifetime LOSE IT ALL! Don't raise your voices against what havppened to fellow artists in Paris. Keep your heads buried in the sand and pretend artists weren't killed for creating their type of art. Disagree that it was art, if you choose to. But don't ignore the fact that if free people - free artists - don't speak out against these murdering s.o.b.'s it is very likely the only art you wil be producing in 20 years will be propaganda posters for ISIS and, if you're lucky, North Korea.

Righto Bill. Artists certainly have an influence in out society (not getting political). I have gotten attacked (physically) for my work as well, so I know. We think of everyone else who is in the media and all, and really.....it is the ARTIST who has the greatest power of communication for we can communicate to any age group, any mentality, rich and poor, and any nationality. WHO else can do that but...........................the ARTIST!

Well said, Bill and thank you so much for saying it. Even if someone doesn't speak our language or we their's, we can still communicate thru images and symbols. You are right, it is not a matter of politics its a matter of free speech Now if we can get more artists on FAA to speak up.

"The pen (brush, lens, etc.) is mightier than the sword." Power to the artists!

Bill Tomsa

I AM CHARLIE!

Hey Charlie, While Paris is not hitting home too much here, as I am dealing with frozen pipes and trying to install and extra ordinary woodburner (I have the bloody fingers to prove it too). There is so much going on in the world that there should be no shortage of issues for artists to represent in the Art World.

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I am surprised and somewhat saddened that more FAA veterans have chosen to remain silent on this matter. We all took the above oath and most of us, even if only in the recesses of our memories, still believe in it.

Bill Tomsa

I AM CHARLIE!

Bill, I'm very sorry to say that I think we have ALL lost touch with where the freedom came from that we now brag about. We can sit in a nice cozy room and do our painting and heck, we don't even have to pay for photographic film anymore and are free to shoot as much as we please. All this came about as a result of people dying to provide such a "comfort zone". I think we quickly forget how fortunate we artists (above all) really are. But freedom is a "window" and that's all it is.

So, where is the art we are to talk about or is this just another political/religious guies?

Drew, this is meant to be more talking than "show and tell". But if you want a picture to talk about.....here we go:



Doing this work years back literally made me weep. I gave this hungry man some money, but that was only a bandage on an open wound in our society.

Countdown to "spreading the Gospel"...

Not from me Rick. I personally don't care what "imaginings" people come up with anymore. THIS work here shows what REALITY looks like and if humanity has any compassion left for their fellow man.

That's great Bill. Show us more of your photos and tell us more of you selfless acts of kindness.

Bill, great thread! I find it interesting how many people don't value art all that much and act as if it is fluff. Yet if you view repressive governments art is one of the first things they seek to control. Visual art is dangerous to these governments because of the spread of ideas over language barriers. Free thinking, BAD, lock step thoughts, GOOD!

Drew, When was the last time you bothered to help someone like.....the homeless? This is not about how good or bad I am, but why we do the works we do. Our works declar what we are "made of", do they not?

Well Ron, let's not get political here, it is freedom from ANYONE to do what we aught to be free from....including folks right here on FAA.

"But freedom is a "window" and that's all it is"

A window, Bill? Do you live in the United States of America? If you do, please at least have the courtesy to regard it as the First Right under the constitution of the United States.

Drew - I think it's more about peoples' views as in opinions, not views as in pictures of art. re-read below:

"Let's Have A Talk About Pictures With Meaning

This discussion is NOT to put on 1,357 works which folks think have MEANING, but rather maybe a piece here and there to aid in a discussion about intended MEANING in certain works.
Sooooooo, what are your views on all that?"




Bill Tomsa

I AM CHARLIE!

ALL people in ALL walks of life have the ability to impact, influence, touch millions in meaningful ways. Look around.
As artists, we are no more special than anyone else...though some of us would like to believe that.

My point being the power of art to influence millions is a very scary thing to certain people.

"Drew, When was the last time you bothered to help someone like.....the homeless? This is not about how good or bad I am, but why we do the works we do. Our works declar what we are "made of", do they not? "
Last time I checked, my right hand did not let left hand know what it was doing.

the fact is, artwork with meaning 99℅ of the time is political and/or religious.

I totally agree Ron, and that is why I thing we artist could and maybe SHOULD consider that more than we do.

Ronald Walker

7 Minutes Ago

"Bill, great thread! I find it interesting how many people don't value art all that much and act as if it is fluff. Yet if you view repressive governments art is one of the first things they seek to control. Visual art is dangerous to these governments because of the spread of ideas over language barriers. Free thinking, BAD, lock step thoughts, GOOD"

Well said Ron,,, in my opinion that is.

Bill Tomsa

I AM CHARLIE!

"ALL people in ALL walks of life have the ability to impact, influence, touch millions in meaningful ways. Look around.
As artists, we are no more special than anyone else...though some of us would like to believe that. "
A-men to that!

Drew, how is a hungry person about Politics or Religion? It's just a few human being who is in need? If I was homeless, I would hope someone had some compassion on me.

Well, thanks,Bill. I just took a long look at the first 50 images on my page, and realize there's nothing deep and meaningful there for me to share here. My life in art has been totally self-absorption with just indulgent self-expression. let's me out here.

A Revelation.

If Artists are no more special, how is it that there are Great Master's painting that STILL sell for MILLION? It's because 99% of the people can't paint like they did. They sure as heck were SPECIAL! With every comment you get on your work you seek...it's so you can feel SPECIAL and appreciated.

Bill, yes I do live in America, and have been in two branches of Service. I believe in freedom and live about as free as anyone in this country. I see freedom as a "window", because it can close at any given time, and has numerous times in history. The wind can shut it, or someone else can shut it, and all because we weren't vigilant to make sure it stays open.

Some people seem to think that this is my most meaningful work:



I have a hard time creating anything that doesn't have an interesting idea behind it. Just painting a flower, or a horse, just because it's a flower or a horse, seems pointless to me. I wish I could though. I'd have more in my gallery and maybe I'd have more sales.

Can it be that we each first define for ourselves what "meaning" means, and then we value a picture for its ability to function to fulfill our personal sense of meaning?

And then do we sometimes find ourselves sharing a common sense of meaning with somebody else who is similar to us?

I think we all know what "meaningful" is and we ACT on it in a common way that we really find hard to explain. We share a common anatomical structure, and it is the very action of this anatomical structure in space/time that makes us all dance to a similar tune, so to speak. Our bodies know a language that our minds and tongues cannot translate. Our bodies, thus, know meaningfulness in a way that words cannot fully capture.

Living itself is meaningful. Making pictures is an extension of a meaningful life. All pictures, then, must be meaningful, ... even bad pictures, because these function to give more meaning to good pictures.

Meaning comes from within, and is applied outward. Thus, the artist's intention is not always (often?) the meaning found by the audience. The artist may use "standardized" cultural symbols, and in such cases the meanings may correspond. At the other extreme, consider the highly symbolic painting "Garden of Earthly Delights" by H. Bosch. His symbolism is, for the most part, largely lost on many/most of us. Yet we can still find meaning of our own.

In another example, consider the fine abstracts in the Judaic art of Marlene Burns. To her, they are representational, at some level, but those meanings may be lost on most of us. I think it's obvious that those images have deep and detailed personal meanings to her. To me, however, even though I know the inspiration from which the works are developed, the images may have completely different meanings, because in my ignorance of her specific symbolism, I'm free to find my own relationships and meaning in her art.

Perhaps she may feel I'm somewhat misrepresenting her work in these statements, but that's because her meanings are both very broad and very specific, and the meanings that I find may be more amorphous and capricious.

Life (and art) is meaningful, and without meaning we can still have art, I suppose, but it is a dreary, forlorn land in the Realm of Dadaism. Even then, the meaning asserts itself in Dadaist art "This image has no meaning". Yes, art can be illogical, and full of paradox, and that, too is a kind of meaning.

My apologies, Marlene and Hieronymus, if I misrepresented anything. It's just my own personal understanding.

When we were little children presenting our "meaningful art" for the "refrigerator gallery", we presented what we thought ART aught to be with all it's MEANING. There was the sun with it's rays and the people in stick form. Yep, that was a cat and a dog over there. And what a fine house that was in the middle.

Now later in life, we gave all that up and just worked at some lame job and didn't have time to draw...lol. Those that survived and stayed creative....well they had to be a bit rebellious to do what they really wanted. And in all that, some guy brings up this discussion about "Meaningful Art". Hmmmmmmm. Well, interesting enough, that used to be a very easy thing to answer, but the world (and growing up) has somehow made that harder to answer, as though growing up has changed me from my youth...making it more difficult to see "meaning" (as I once did).

Finding meaning is itself a form of art, Bill S. -- perhaps the greatest artistic venture that humankind has ever undertaken.

Meaning is inferred, not implied.

It doesn't matter what you say, it only matters how the person on the receiving end perceives it.
That's the trick to human communication, be it spoken or visual.

Cynthia, so a work can be very meaningful in many ways, but to many, it might mean nothing at all, because not much of anything means anything to them anyway?

I think it sometimes DOES matter what you say - it reflects how your perception of communicating with others is true or not. Sometimes we actually find ourselves sharing meaning, and our words do this justice. Other times, NOT.

If words did not matter, then they would not exist to use as means of expression. I do agree that the artist's meaning is rarely the viewer's. The artist enhances a viewer's meaning by giving the person a place to focus and reflect on meaning, whatever it might be individually.

I laugh when I think of some of the grand titles that I have given some of my artworks, and the viewers refer to them as that "green blob thingie", for example, or some pet name that captures the most bare-bones, childlike description of it. But that's okay, and I am okay that this is okay. I suspect that, on a deeper nonverbal level, I and my viewers have even shared a meaning or two.

Robert, I think it ALWAYS matters what you say, for there is NO ONE who doesn't need to be encouraged on, challenged, and even "attacked" by some work. People who live in a state of "avoidance" won't care, but there are many who would care what the ARTIST has dreamed up. The ARTIST does have POWER. The only question is what he/she chooses to do with that POWER.

Art created to influence is then just a tool.

There is no all or nothing. You should mean what you say or show. You should put content and subtext into your work. But you can't count on that content reaching people the same way it left you. And telling them what they should be seeing is a slippery slope.

Everyone in the world has the capacity to draw meaning from artwork. But not everyone will see the same meaning, regardless of how plainly you think you have rendered it, or how many times you try to explain it.

Right Bob, Just another tool. But then isn't ART just a "tool" for this reason or that reason?

I can see how would you say what you say Cynthia, for your work plainly says that there is something you are trying to say with your work, but you leave it ambiguous enough to open up much for many. In other words...they can draw whatever "meaning" they want. Is that "planned" or just the way you see being creative?

A little of both. Each image has specific meaning to me, certainly.

For a long time I wanted people to draw their own conclusions, but over the years of showing the work in person I learned that people really like to know what the artist was thinking when creating an image. They don't want to hear the artist blather on and on about it, but some insight is a good thing.

I should update my portfolio with better descriptions, now that you mention it.

Good reply Cynthia. Maybe producing ART is like a "dance" where both parties are somewhat on the "same page". That would be nice. So, you were wondering what to do today....updating....lol.

I had an interesting experience in my first live gallery showing years and years ago:

The fact that I could verbalize what I meant by a particular painting actually crystalized this sense of meaning in the person who was looking at it, who was not aware that my expression in words did a fair job of capturing her feelings. In a way, I talked her into the meaning, and she believed that it was her own. Some people are malleable and very open this way, so maybe we fill the void.

Exactly that, Robert, and beautifully put

It's like I see the light go on in people when I talk about an image - even if my concept was very different than their takeaway, they get what I'm saying and it adds another layer of dimension and interest to the work for them. Not to spam the thread, but this early image of mine is a good example. Most people see this image as being very zen, and peaceful and calming, and soothing. And it is those things.



But at the time I created it, I was having a struggle that involved someone I know getting involved with a religious/lifestyle group that isolated her from her family and her world. It was a self-help type group, where you're constantly trying to become enlightened. She was lost in this false blissful fog, caught in a loop where she would never be good enough, she'd never be whole. In all this endless introspection, her life was quite literally passing her by.

When I tell people about that, I worry that it will cast a negative light on the work, but it never does. They see it, they see what I was saying, but it doesn't seem to change how the work makes them feel. It just seems to enhance it for them.

So we are able to "talk" people "into" believing this or that about a work? Then there is POWER in that as well...right? Maybe we are just good "salesmen" doing that? I once had a customer at a outdoor event who wanted a work of mine so desperately and when she said she would "worship" the work, I told her I wouldn't sell it to her.

Why Bill, what were your thoughts?

I once had a woman find a secret image in my art and when she showed it to me I confessed it was a heel mark and offered to fix it. She reported me to the gallery when she bought it telling them, 'she's not changing (meaning me the artist) MY painting'.
No problem, madam.

Like said, art has power. We might not be able to define that power and it can be different in all but it's the power of art we're wielding with our brushes not divinely inspired wisdom. Seriously, aren't you at least a little glad meaning in the literal sense isn't in the job description? That said, what power they feel or interpretation they make... they are in the right. After your work starts out into the cold cruel world it takes on the story (provenance) of the owner. It's meaning changes.

We just control the power of art on people, how they think and feel isn't what I'm controlling (even if it does).
-- mary ellen anderson

Good insight Mary Ellen. In my case (years ago). I was selling prints like hotcakes. Sold like 200 in two hours. It was a spiritual piece I was selling and never thought of what people would do with it, until this one young lady said she will hang it up and literally worship that picture. I don't want anyone worshiping what I create, so I chose not to sell it to her. Later, I gave the original away and didn't even sell prints anymore of that work.

Well people have worshiped art since there was art, and you're in excellent artistic company;)
-- mary ellen anderson

Mary Ellen, I'm thinking of doing a work that will cause some controversy (maybe a LOT), just to show what ART can do. What do you think? Should I or shouldn't I?

Excuse me for butting into your question directed at Mary E. A., but I'll give you an answer too:

Your work probably already causes some controversy in some circles. Can you give us a hint about what direction you might lean towards now, Bill S.

If you just want to shake people up, then I would advise against it. But if you want to make new creative inroads primarily ... that just happen to shake people up, then I say go for it.

Robert, I don't live to cause controversy.....it's more that my "interests" cause controversy. To do art which fits the decor is one thing, and even art which "suggests" this or that is fine, but the works I really like is that which makes people have to search deep within themselves. Such works always have plenty of meaning attached (which require little explanation).

I just placed a new work on my site that I am allowed to show, but not discuss, because of the tremendous controversy it would cause.

So what is the meaning of this?

http://fineartamerica.com/contests/national-tv-photo-contest-3.html?tab=vote&artworkid=13899445

Ted.. this image has no direct meaning to me, other than the photographer needs a few lessons on composition and editing. But that is just my opinion and therefore not of much worth. ;O)

Ted, That work makes you wonder what kind of boat is "suggested" there.