Drugs, Terminal Illness And Nothing Left To Lose

Nah, I'd rather be lucid and actually do something other than stare at my couch wondering why its trying to eat me.

I only just experienced the wish to die. Not terminal! Major nerve damage from a long life, and that pain was enough for a death wish. But, the neuro surgeon operated, and I am 60% ok, and grateful.
Whereas, when terminal occurs, I know so many who are cared for graciously through Dr ordered peaceful palliative care...they remain calm,lucid,comforted....I even spoke on the phone to my dying brother while he was being given "relief"....he died peacefully. There is no need to electrocute yourself, IF you get the right care. But, it can sometimes take very long on drugs......and is expensive! Such is the dying game.

No,I wouldn't waste what little time I had left, to lose my reality to drugs. I would spend every last dime I had on travel, and if I ran out of money before the month was up I would use my credit cards. I'd travel first to Greece and Italy to visit my family and say goodbye. Then I would take the next 3 weeks and go to Egypt, Japan, and Russia...places I've always wanted to travel to and photograph.

Now if I was going to be in severe pain, I would take the prescribed pain killer to get me through the month to be able to do the things I wanted. But when you ask would I use something like LSD, cocaine, or heroin, no I wouldn't. Reason being is, I would want to be as alert as possible to experience my last days and hold on to my precious memories to my last breath.

An interesting question, John. If the condition was truly terminal, especially if it's painful. I'd avoid cocaine, since it could make the patient's discomfort feel more acute. Marijuana could indeed help with appetite and mitigate pain somewhat. I've never tried heroin, so I can't speak to that. I've really liked LSD, and it could provide some relief, but it's not to be taken constantly, or even frequently. Its hallucinations are quite memorable, and embrace the visual, physical and auditory. It could be a useful diversion - the ultimate antidepressant. On the other hand, it can be quite a scary experience for the novice user.

You'd also need a reliable source for the drugs, so you won't be arrested. That can be a problem in itself.

Life is so precious - I'd live every moment to the max.

No. My brain is my BFF and lifelong companion, deserving of all the care and respect I can give it.

You're not talking about facing death, John -- you're just talking about having a 'reason' to get and stay high. Life is a terminal illness; no last ditch cop-out can protect you from that.

You might find this interesting, John. I recently saw a documentary regarding this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/06/lsd-anxiety-study-psychotherapy-_n_4906596.html

Me, I'd been sick almost a half of my life. My doctor just declared me cured Feb. 2014 (but i doubt it!). The doctor suspect It's cf but somehow suddenly took it back. It started when I'm just 17! Back when I feeling better, I am afraid for many things. Now, I think I can take any risk, anytime. There is a time that my family is talking about my grandma's health like how worry they are. I guess being sick got me crazy and I said 'it's all good, she's 75.. I'm good to go at 30!', they just laughed thinking I'm joking, but I am dead serious about it. I am still so mad because I barely smoke or drink and I got a crappy lungs like this. But as they say.. 'Life goes on' , we can't do anything about it! Except do what we want to do, do what we got to do and be very tough, enjoy while we have it. And It would be very unfair and selfish if you cheat it. Now, I'm smoking and drinking occationally so atleast I can say a handful of reason when it came back, thinking 'it is f'**kn fair this time! harhar!'. But still, also being sick makes me believe that everything happens for a reason, I doubt me making art and having stories to tell making a nobela If I never have it. If I have the last 30 days in my life I'll write as many stories as I could, make paintings as many as I could that not only to entertain anybody or to decorate the house but to inspire or teach them somehow or tell them 'what I learned about life' so far, so maybe it could save them somehow for making mistakes that I made and what kind of things have saved me. I'll have my name on it, so it is a 'winwin' for me. + ofcourse I need to see the love of my life :), maybe kiss her, got drunk and smoke weed on top of the watertank! xD. Weed for me is enough, no more any other drugs..



'I believe there is another world waiting for us. A better world.. And I'll be waiting for you there..' -David Mitchell

Drugs should be legal. Most of the "drug problems" in the US are caused because they are illegal. As citizens of a 'free country," consenting adults should be allowed to do what we want as long as we don't hurt the person or property of another.

lsd will make everything worse. its hardly an escape, i know one guy who is terrified of snakes. to the point of making a hiss sound while waving around a lamp cord. what i fun i had. i wouldn't want to take anything that was -

illegal
expensive
had terrible side effects.


because i still might live and they might find a cure. or they made a mistake. we are a country that wants to feel more comfortable, a first world problem where we should all be living the life of comfort. so many use the drugs for that reason alone. but i'd hate to think that i would not only be dying, but now addicted to a substance that would make my life and other lives worse.

not to mention i wouldn't even begin to know where to get the drugs in the first place. they make it look so easy on tv. its not like the advertise with a sign spinner or something.

i also can't imagine doing something totally out of my normal parameters just because i'm dying. and potentially a month to live may be 10 years, and doing something dumb will just increase my time to a month.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"nothing left to lose" is an attitude problem....
what you have left to lose by altering your mind, is the rest of your life.
at life's end, everyone i knew developed an innate sense of how precious it is, not to be wasted.
but then again, everyone i knew never exhibited a nothing left to lose posture.

I think at the end of my life, I will be more concerned with holding on to my current presence of mind than of letting it go. What's a short span of physical suffering compared to a lifetime of memories?

April, well said.
To add, the way we die is as important as the way we live. As I lost my parents, grandparents, I learned valuable lessons from each ofthem...had they chosen drugs, I wouldn't have known the following:
1. Attitude is everything
2. The importance of saying goodbye
3. Don't give up
4. It's better to be happy than to be right.

As a parent, I suspect I will still have things to teach my loved ones when my time comes....

My thoughts exactly, Marlene. I know my son is young now, but I can't fathom that there will ever come a time when I would feel like I've said all there is to say to him, that I've taught him all there is to teach.

Mike wrote, “lsd will make everything worse. its hardly an escape.”

Glad to see you sharing your opinion, Mike.

And you are correct in that LSD is still illegal. Yet I do hope you will take time to consider that the fda has---after forty years---decided to allow experiments regarding this drug. Strictly for medical reasons.

I believe your use of the word, “escape” has no bearing on the proposed conversation here.

By the way, if you are not aware....well there is a phrase that you may find in graffiti posted in some quarters in the big---and not so big---cities that states, “Sid Lives”.

I would suggest to all on this thread to click on the link I provided and learn more about the topic.

By the way, LSD is the common abbreviation for, Lysergic acid diethylamide

I'm not sure I'd do ALL 3 of those at once! ;)

“I think at the end of my life, I will be more concerned with holding on to my current presence of mind than of letting it go. What's a short span of physical suffering compared to a lifetime of memories?”

This is a wonderful sentiment, April. Yet after watching both my mother, and my father, pass while suffering from dementia, I am not so sure I would have objected if---and this is a big if---they were afforded the benefits that MAY eased their journey into the....well I am not going to use the religious term I had in mind---it is against the rules here on faa.

Suffice it to say that I would be in favor of making their death a bit easier.

“2. The importance of saying goodbye”

One should be considered lucky if when saying goodby to a loved one, the loved one actually knows who you are.

Walter, saying goodbye isn't always something said at the end. I was able to say goodbye to 3 of my parents/grandparents...and was lucky enough to see two of them after that. These conversations can happen long before your loved ones pass. Death is a milestone and if our western society wasn't so damn scared of it, there would be more goodbyes, more accountings of lives, more love, more clean relationships.
And don't kid yourself....saying goodbye is as much for you as for them.

Ever since my beast cancer diagnosis a few years ago I have felt an urgency to create something good to leave behind and be remembered by. I don't know why I feel that way since my prognosis is good, but I do. So if I found out I was dying I'd become even more motivated. I'd quit the day job and take up full time residence in my studio and paint day and night. For that I would need every available brain cell as painting for me, is as much an intellectual endeavor as it is a creative one.

Karyn, thanks for sharing that.
A good reminder for us all.

I can say that when I was going through having to say my last good-byes to my mother as she was dying... I was traveling in Morocco and was doing so from a noisy pay phone where slimy street pushers kept trying to interrupt my final conversation with her.

After I got the news she'd passed, again via Moroccan pay phone, I went back to the Kasbah in the Old City where I had a cheap room. The Moroccan dudes I'd met earlier in the day while having mint tea, were all jovial and wanted to know why I looked so glum. Told them I'd just learned my mom passed and they said, "Oh, I'm sorry my friend. But, we ALL must die. Do you want some hashish?"

I told them I did, and followed them into some dilapidated earthen building where we smoked some very strong hashish that left me completely numb. I stumbled back to my room and wanted nothing more than to cry real hard all night, but I couldn't. I was too messed up on the hashish. It was a big mistake. If I had to go through that again, I'd do it raw instead.

Walter, I understand your reasoning. Dementia is a terrible thing, and I'm sorry your parents had to go that way. The question that John posed was, in essence, if you found out *today* that you only had a month left to live, would you do all these things. That's why I said in "my current presence of mind," no, I wouldn't. I still have access to a lifetime of memories, and I wouldn't trade them for anything. Then again, can we say those memories are necessarily lost to dementia either? Something to consider, I suppose.

I would give most of my "stuff" away and spend the last days meditating and maybe sitting by the water. I'm with everyone else here. I'm not running away only to die confused and incoherent.

Interesting responses so far about a subject I don't think we discuss enough in this country. Which is odd given how inevitable it is.

It seems to me many people looked at doing these illegal drugs as a "waste" of something. I would try them simply for the experience of trying them, to see what it was like. Remember, the effects of these drugs aren't permanent. Having never really done these three drugs I would be curious to see what all the "fuss" was about. Maybe I would like it, maybe I would hate it. But at that point, with the end near, why not try? If I found something I liked and it helped me deal with my inevitable death, why not do it again? I don't have to worry about getting addicted.

I have witnessed three people close to me die a prolonged death. Dying is inevitable but dying slowly shouldn't be. Two of thee people were so drugged up they were barely awake and aware what was going on. Which isn't really a BAD thing considering their situation but hardly a pleasant way to leave the world. My great grandfather was about 87 years old and in a nursing home with Parkinson's. He barely knew the people in the room with him. But I distinctly remember him begging people for a cigarette. I thought it was pathetic and sad that this grown man had to suffer nicotine withdrawals at that point in his life. I always thought why not give him all the smokes he wants, in his room, along with a bottle of whiskey if he wanted.

The thing with the terminal diseases is that you have a certain amount of time with it when you can function and then it degrades into debilitating pain and drugs to manage the pain. At that point it doesn't seem like you can do much other than lie in a bed stoned out of your mind on socially acceptable drugs. That is the time, to me, to try what you want. There really is nothing left to lose and it MIGHT actually help.


As far as standing out in a thunderstorm. I wouldn't do it to TRY to die. I would do it for the experience of standing in the middle of nature's fury and feeling the power of it. I have been caught in a few storms but always managed to rush to shelter before the full force of the storm hit. It's a little exciting to be on the edge of it. Imagine standing out in the middle of it. I could see myself facing it, hands stretched out to my side, taking it in. Sure it would be scary as hell. Sure there is a chance I could get hit by lightning. But when it passed and I made it out the other side I would think it would be what I call a "holy s**t moment. I think those are the moments we remember in our lives. All my life I have been seeking shelter from the storms (literally and figuratively), Why not go stand up to one at the end?

What better reason to face what we fear than death? I probably never did LSD, cocaine and heroin before because I was afraid. Afraid of getting hooked on them. Don't have to worry about that if I had a terminal disease.

Ever see the National Geographic shows where the giant crocodiles grab the wildebeest at the water's edge during their migration? I have always wanted to be on that bank getting those shots and seeing that raw power in action. That is something I would do if I had a chance, even without a terminal disease. But if I was terminal, and could swing it, I would go to that river and sit right there on the bank. Taking pictures and watching nature play out in front of me. Those wildebeest seem to know something is hiding in that dirty water. They seem afraid. But they have to get to that green pasture on the other side so they jump in. That is a pretty good analogy of facing our own death. It is scary. We don't know what's waiting for us. But we might as well jump in.

No way, I like to have control over my mind. Not too long ago I got the shock of my life when I was diagnosed with stage 4 cirrhosis. (I'm not much of a drinker so that's why it was a shock.) They eventually discovered it's due to a disease called primary biliary cirrhosis, which is an autoimmune disease that attacks the bile ducts (in the liver). It progresses to a terminal stage over a number of years but nobody can really tell me what number that is. I go for blood tests and a CT scan twice a year to check for cancer. If I hear I have liver cancer one of those times, I wouldn't do anything stupid or dangerous...on the contrary, I'd have hope to the very end that I can still create a miracle for myself. But I must admit, since hearing these diagnoses, I'm at peace with leaving this world because I believe there's something better on the other side.

Thanks for that link Walter. That is exactly what I was talking about.

I suppose you could always find yourself an extremely tall cliff and leap off of it, experiencing the feeling of flight maybe, even if for a brief moment. Only thing is, if you discover on the way down that you like it, it's probably not going to be a repeatable event.

My father had terminal cancer and was on OxyCodone and OxyContin and about 40 other drugs and had episodes of total loopiness-driving when he was told not to, lack of sleep, bursts of anger, etc. Just because a drug is illegal doesn't mean the legal ones are any better. I kept saying we should make him "special brownies" but we never did. He fought that killer tooth and nail and outlived predictions by almost 2 years. But it was not a great 2 years by any stretch, except for maybe the long reminiscing. Morphine and its derivatives like above are legal versions of illegal drugs.
During those 2+ years he was too busy fighting to express any desire to do anything he'd never done before. If you want to stand outside during a storm, do it now. As for heroin, etc., don't worry, the medical profession has legal ways to give it to you and from all observation, it did little to nothing anyway. He was still in pain and he still died.

"Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande is on the best seller list for non-fiction I believe. "Medicine and What Matters in the End" - good read.

I told this story on here in a recent thread, but it bears repeating. On the Tuesday before Thanksgiving in 1992, my mother was given six months to live. She had fought cancer for years and won many battles, but ultimately lost the war. We talked about whether we weregoing to have Thanksgiving at our house as was the norm. I believe the family talked about it and Mom pretty much said, "Thanksgiving is here as always." We all pitched in and she made her incredible dressing while someone else was in charge of the turkey that year. It was fantastic, a lot of laughing and memories, etc. I believe the thought was that she would fight it, but it got real bad real quick and on the Tuesday before Christmas, she passed away with us at her side. During those four weeks, she had many vistors, a lot of phone calls and wrote a few letters to other folks, but we knew it was bad by then.

I hope when I go, I go much like this. One night she went to sleep and just didn't wake up the next morning.

I will take pain meds if needed -- still have some Oxicontin from a recent surgery, the nurses said they were surprised at how little I took, but every morning at 2:30 I called for an IV -- but I think my days of doing the illegal stuff are behind me, not that I did many back then anyway. I hope I get to see the Grand Canyon and Niagra Falls before I go and I believe I will see the Norfolk & Western #611 for the first time under steam next year. I'm not very religous, but when I pray, I pray for simple things like seeing my kids graduate and begin to make something of thier lives and every day I wake up with my wife's head on my shoulder, I know that if I go that day, things have been pretty good and I can't complain.

Oh, and I still want to see the planes over the beach in St. Marteen.

A thought I had about this subject.

Every time you talk about this subject it seems the "bucket list" always come up.

How unfortunate that many people never get to complete them because they can't afford to, even when diagnosed with a terminal disease.

My thought was "bucket list" insurance. It would work just like life insurance but you get the money when you are diagnosed with a terminal disease to spend how you see fit while you are still alive.

It could work just like life insurance. It would have to have a few restrictions like how long yo have to have the policy before you are eligible to get the money. There will have to be medical proof you have a terminal disease. o make it worth offering for the insurance company there may be restrictions on the money if you were to die suddenly before getting a chance to collect the money.

Bucket list insurance? Sign me up! I like that idea!

This is a tough question, when taken seriously.
In many value systems, suicide is immoral, period. Or wasting your life, or a portion of it.
Likewise, suicide is often a terrible accusation against those who love you, suggesting (intentionally or not) that their love was inadequate, and that you do not value your relationship enough with them to stick around (on in your example, to be fully engaged.)
It's particularly destructive to young people, who inevitably encounter major failure or crisis in life, such as depression, and don't understand that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. (Life has ups and downs. Stubbornness and persistence are positive values.) Illicit drugs can also have permanent negative consequences.

I particularly remember the story of my father's death with lung cancer. When Hemingway committed suicide, I remembered that my dad expressed disgust at his action. Hemingway had a very common "tough guy" ethic. (Ever read the Old Man and the Sea?) He felt that Hemingway showed himself to be a hollow man, who could not live up to his own words and philosophy, and set a bad example for the world at large.

However, less than a day before my dad died, he asked, then demanded to be helped to the kitchen sink. (Stay at home hospice care). The nurse and I refused, but what I never really told anyone was that I knew, because I had moved my dad into his rest home about 6 months prior, was that he had kept a loaded derringer in the cabinet. What I did NOT say, but should have said, was to remind him of his take on Hemingway's death, and its effects on people who admired him.

One of the last things he said, was of his other estranged son. "That poor bastard. Now I can understand!" (My brother was addicted to Rx painkillers.) The escape that is legally permitted is that you can treat the pain, and ultimately, if that treatment contributes to death, well, his whole body is already in shutdown at that time.

I think that doctors should be able to prescribe a wide variety of palliative drugs, and not just in hospice. There is barely a single item in the US Bill of Rights (1st 10 amendments to the constitution) that is not seriously violated by the failed "war on drugs". The prohibition, like the previous alcohol prohibition, has failed, and established corruption and cartels as major players in national and even world affairs.

But I still believe in obeying the drug laws, because to buy illegal drugs is to support murder, theft, and the wholesale destruction of the potential of many millions, perhaps trillions of people.

So what I see in society is a "do your own thing" mentality: Ignore laws you don't agree with. Do as you please. Live for (but do NOT) seize the moment. Pick and choose the values you wish to uphold, and embrace authority (perhaps), except with regard to yourself. The pragmatic consequence is that we see virtually every possible choice being exercised.

Pet peeve:
Carpe Diem, seize the moment, means, in origin, to take advantage of opportunity, and work hard to take advantage of fair winds and weather and times, knowing that dark times require preparation for survival. It does NOT really mean to live for the moment, and just have fun rather than facing responsibilities.

Another comment on "Bucket Life Insurance".
In actual fact, if you have a terminal illness, and the money is not needed for your family's security, you sometimes CAN cash in your life insurance early. It depends on the policy. But in some circumstances, it might even be possible for a term life insurance policy to be "cashed in" (for a reduced payout) if the actuarial statistics favor the insurance company doing this. It wouldn't hurt to ask, if you found yourself in that situation.

Gregory thanks for the response but this really isn't about the depressed. It is about the terminally ill. The ones that will die, no matter what.

I don't think "normal" rules about life come into play in that situation. In fact I can't think of a better time for people to do what they may have always been afraid of doing while they were alive.

It is, after all, their last chance to do it.

I agree, John. “...a subject I don't think we discuss enough in this country. Which is odd given how inevitable it is.”

Meanwhile:

“On my search for death, I really did find my life” --- Jeb Corliss.



Note: As it turns out Jeb was not the first wingsuiter to land without the use of a parachute.

Controversy notwithstanding (http://www.outsideonline.com/news-from-the-field/Frenchmen-May-Have-Completed-First-Wingsuit-Water-Landing-Without-Parachute.html ) it seems that Raphael Dumont was the first?

Tried them in the 70"s (except for heroine) without the terminal illness diagnosis. So i probably wouldn't be interested in them again, but if I were in a lot of pain, forget the clear head,bring on the morphine.

Each of us should have the right to choose. Doing morphine to ease stress and pain is acceptable to many who find illegal drugs used for the same purpose unacceptable even though many of the illegal drugs aren't nearly as dangerous.

I got pumped full of some wicked pain drugs when I got hit by a car and while they worked... I HATED the side effects of morphine and refused to take it anymore.

I worked in palliative care and hospice and there is never, ever a reason any human being need die in pain and misery. Anyone can ask/request palliative sedation when 'they know' it's time - and they do know as this is natural within us.

Palliative sedation is what it is - very much like an anesthetic.

Having drugs available to ease a person's pain from a debilitating disease is not the same thing as missing the end of life.
A couple of people close to me who died slowly from tragic diseases were always doused in drugs, but they each had an incredible moment of clarity at the end of their time that they clung to. To me, it looked like they knew exactly how to proceed and where to go. Thankfully, those experiences calmed my fears regarding my own demise. It's only what I've seen a time or two, but it has definitely shaped my opinion about death.

John, there's no need for bucket list insurance...buy a policy.
run up your credit cards. after you die, whoever is in line for that policy, will have to first pay off your debts.

"Palliative sedation is what it is - very much like an anesthetic."

See, that doesn't make much sense to me Zeana. If you are going to be that sedated, what is the point of keeping them alive?

So many people look at life, and the end of it, in terms of numbers. "I want to live to be 80 or 90 or 100.

Numbers don't matter to me it is quality. You can try to extend your life all you want but as the old saying goes "eat right, exercise...die anyway".

Sooner or later you will out live your body's usefulness. Of course that number is different for everyone but if we live long enough, we will pass that point. I don't want to pass that point. I would rather go out right before I reach it. Death isn't scary, deterioration is!

I don't have credit cards Marlene. Only debit cards. Credit cards are trouble. Bucket list insurance would be for YOU, not your beneficiaries. Doing it your way takes money away from people you want to leave money to.

Speaking of credit cards and life insurance...

I was a bill collector for a bank in Philadelphia's credit cards about 20 years ago. One day the person in charge of the accounts called me and say I would be getting a past due account in about 30 days from a man named "X". They told me not to call him or send him letters or block his account. they told me the young man had AIDS and would probably die in a few months. They agreed to let him use his $5000 credit card so that he could buy his family presents for his last Christmas and the balance would be paid off with life insurance.

So much for the cold and heartless banks!

I have not read all the post. Some are pretty deep. Not sure what I would do. I was never one to enjoy not knowing what is going on. But I do question how we give animals a mercy death when they are terminal but do not give the same mercy to our fellow humans. The only people who can make that choice right now are burn victims. Once a person is put into hospice care who has the right to say they should die of starvation and dehydration? Is that humane? I believe the person in hospice care should have the right to say when they are ready to say good bye to this world.

Never tried drugs, don't want them. Only drugs I've had were what a doc. prescribed to alleviate some pain after surgery or an injury. That was OK, but those also can knock one out.

If one is in horrible pain and death is near , some type of help may be needed to relieve the worst of the pain, but it should be a legal one!!!

Years ago I sat with my mom in a hospital as she was about to die of cancer. Blood was being drained from her body as she was bleeding internally and no one could save her. She did not scream in horror and lay calm,yet knew me. She had some sedation, but still had the ability to have some alertness. She could not speak though. I left the room, for a brief time to catch my own breath and at some unknown moment I walked back into her room and it was at that moment that she was gone!(there is more to the story but that is enough) Was I glad she knew me for even that short time, yes! Had she been so sedated that she would not have known anyone, I'm not sure. I've never been at that point of death yet, but have felt a pain severe enough to want a little help. This is a very subjective question. As for those so called street drugs, addictive, illegal and also expensive.....don't waste your time, your life, your future and your money!

"who has the right" once the patient can no longer speak for themselves?
the patient's Medical POA or the patient if they were wise enough to put it in writing via a living will.

That is complicated Marlene! It is wise to have a living will. It is even more wise to know that you choose the right person who can speak for you, if you no longer can. Otherwise the Medical system, doctors, etc., will do it for you. It may not be what you want on the other hand if that near to death.....how will you even know? I think maybe what you are talking about pertains to some sort of long term care or hospitalization where drugs could definitely be given (for many reasons!) and who determines what the drugs will be or do.

Mary, the medical system will keep you alive, at all costs ( literally and figuratively)
Responsible people make these decisions ahead of time with a living will ( and it's not just for old people...young people get killed in accidents and de of diseases too)
Choosing the medical POA is trickier.... My Mom chose me, though I am the younger of her two children....she knew I was the obedient one and able to put my personal feelings aside to follow through on her wishes. My brother was not able and it was problematic, but as luck had it, I was the one with her AND she was lucid enough to order hospice herself....it was her last gift to me.....I never would have wanted to make the decision.

Why must a drug that wipes out horrible pain be a legal drug? It's naive to believe that FDA-sanctioned drugs are always better than other remedies. The big pharmas are in it for the bucks, period.

I was caregiver to both of my parents when they each died of lung cancer. Hospice is a Godsend. There is no excuse for a person to have to die in pain when there are legal drugs that work quite well. Even when the person has lost the ability to swallow there are patches to apply the medication. When a person is in great pain, the medications don't affect them the same way as if a person without pain were to take them. They don't necessarily get high or loopy but they do have relief from the pain and the stress it causes. When a dying person is able to relax then it helps them to make peace with things. If and when I am terminally ill I wouldn't want to take illegal drugs just to have the experience. It just isn't something I'm interested in and never have been.

^ John, you quoted and wrote -:
""Palliative sedation is what it is - very much like an anesthetic."

See, that doesn't make much sense to me Zeana. If you are going to be that sedated, what is the point of keeping them alive? "

___________________________________________

Illegal drugs are not used, and morphine is rarely the drug of choice; yes it's used but it sure isn't the most effective. Most people by this stage I am speaking of want it to end. They have done their last and final wishes, they have said their goodbyes, but palliative sedation IS and can be different for everyone - it all depends on the level of suffering. Some people can be sedated enough to just relieve pain, anxiety and terminal agitation - it isn't like sedating a non terminal person - these people can retain clarity as they are not opiate naive. Others are suffering so much they cry out for it to end and are very, very aware of what they want - those cases can break any carer. By this stage they no longer eat and no longer drink - it's the hospice carer's job to ensure lips are moistened and skin is kept comfortable.

No one in hospice care worth it's salt is starved or dehydrated - the body shuts down of it's own accord - this is part of the dying process. To force these people through IV drip to endure hydration would be to fill their body with fluids - but guess what? The kidneys are shutting down - how does the fluid get out? It doesn't. It swells the body. It's cruel and a great misnomer to fear the terminal phase because your body, any body's body will NOT want fluids.

At this time most countries have very little "right to die" policies which ties the hands of anyone who is requested to do such a thing.

Not one person in a reputable hospice is going to be sedated against their will. All have orders in place at the time of entering either in house hospice or in hospital care. Even DNR orders are the patients choice.

Anyone who really wants to know the signs can read here. The signs of the end are utterly unmistakable and unforgettable.

http://kokuamau.org/resources/last-stages-life

To close to home right now but grateful that I stumbled upon the discussion. ;)
Be well.

Zeana,

Thanks for that information. My grandfather's second wife was in Hospice and I remember thinking how wonderful the people that work there are. Second only to the nurses in children's hospitals. It takes a special person with a special kind of compassion and strength to work in those conditions.


"Others are suffering so much they cry out for it to end and are very, very aware of what they want - those cases can break any carer. By this stage they no longer eat and no longer drink - it's the hospice carer's job to ensure lips are moistened and skin is kept comfortable."

These are the people I just don't understand why we can't do something more humane in this country to help them get their wish.

John, neither do I. I just know I couldn't be the one to do it - in the end of that career path I really broke - every person became a personal loss. Even today it's a painful subject.

Strangely, we are all told and so-called taught how to live, but never taught how to die. I for one am not scared of dying but I would like it to be a time of my choosing.

I think I could.

Not because I am morbid or anything. I would look at it as the ultimate favor.

But even Kevorkian's "death machine" could have been an option for people. Let them bush a button an inject themselves.

Like you the dying doesn't scare me. It is the dying SLOWLY that is scary. I would take too many pills if it came down o it without hesitation but it would be better if a trained medical professional could do it.

We don't have to shoot our dogs like the kid in old Yeller, we have trained vets to help end their suffering. But for some reason we don't have this option for the people we love. I guess it gets back to what you said, we aren't taught how to die.

I wonder how many people viewed this thread (or the title) and just flat-out refused to look or comment.

Dear Zeana,

Thanks for the link up above. I was holding my father's hand when he died, and it was one of the few times I really felt he wanted me close by.

I once had a doctor tell me there is no reason for anyone to live with pain, so for those who are terminally ill, I do believe they will give you morphine, etc. Why not? However, if you're using them "just to feel good," or for entertainment, you might as well hold a gun to your head and get it over with because once you're addicted to heroin, crack, cocaine, meth.........it's almost impossible to get off these drugs, and I've heard it's the most painful thing anyone can experience. I've seen real tragedy as most probably have. I think celebrities would be a pretty good example. Why would anyone want to deliberately kill themselves by a slow, excruciating death?

Vicki,

I wouldn't do the drugs I mentioned for pain I would do them simply to see what they were like. Getting off the drugs won't matter because I would do this only if I were terminally ill. I may only do them once anyway, like I said just to see what the "fuss" was about. They have to have a positive effect or people wouldn't be hooked o them.

"They have to have a positive effect or people wouldn't be hooked on them."

Many addictive drugs are addictive not because they're such a great experience, but because the physical reaction to stopping them can be pretty awful. Heroin is like that. It is perhaps the ultimate escapist drug, but requires numerous uses for addiction to begin. Other opiates, like crack cocaine are addictive because their experience is so overwhelming that after even one use, people can spend the rest of their lives trying to get back to that euphoric 'place.' That's why it can be addictive after just a single use.

Other drugs, organics like marijuana and psilocybin mushrooms ('shrooms') , can create dependency, but not addiction. I've been a regular pot smoker for over forty years, because I enjoy the relaxation, heightened awareness and insightfulness that it provides. I'm not addicted, though, because I've given it up for periods of up to two years with no ill effects.

Chemical-based drugs, like LSD, have been quite enjoyable, and while not physically addictive; for some people, they create a desire to use more. I credit LSD for helping me to create my visual style and paradigm, since it enhanced my powers of observation, even after the trip was over. The first time I used it, though, it was pretty scary, since I was unprepared for the experience, which is very common according to Timothy Leary's writings. But after that, I was able (and quite willing) to embrace its effects, which induced a permanent expansion of my visual and auditory senses, affecting how I saw and heard the world.

Some here have written about not wanting to live their final days in a 'muddled' state. With the exception of opiates, that doesn't really seem to be the case. However, on balance, I'm not sure that I'd recommend facing the end stoned, tripping, or whatever. I don't believe that death is the time to begin experimenting with drugs, since the experience is as likely to be strange and confusing as it is to be beneficial and clarifying.

My health
my life
my family
my friends
my art
not forgetting FAA is my fix, keeps me going lol!!

I drank alcoholically until 21 years ago. And have been straightening up every since.

There is an interesting dividing line in sobriety between healthy and happy and just off the alcohol.

This might seem odd, but.....that has never stopped me before.

Alcoholics rationalize that we all die alone. Let that sink in.

Alcoholics are bad very often with family and lose their friends. So they rationalize
we all die alone.

Recently I went over the major deaths of loved ones in my family and one very close friend. They each died in somewhat
different circumstances, but not by themselves alone.

I was the only grandson, so I was doted on by my grandfather. He died on a winter's day at age
80 having his last stroke coming out of the Irish sea. He swam every day of his life right on up to the end. The water
was possibly under 45 degrees F. He lived his life his way. And his family and friends truly were with him.

Both Grandmothers died of very old age, 87 and 98. Of the grandchildren I spent by far the most time with each of them
in their final years. My parents both sat bedside for each of them. My mother's mother also had my aunt sitting bedside.

My cousin, who was the oldest of my generation, at age 48 died of cancer. She only a few years earlier was on
fertility drugs to have her son. We suspect those drugs caused the cancer. She was from Dublin, Ireland, but had settled and married
in San Francisco. Her sister flew several times into San Francisco during her battle. Her sister held her in bed as she died.

The closest friend I ever had told me she loved me hours before dying at home of a massive heart attack. She was close to her kids as well.

The longer my trip into sobriety the less I would want to die alone.

Dave

Kelley, what you did for your Father and what you sensed from him was very real. Even sedated, people do hear their loved ones or if they have no loved ones left, they feel the carer is with them. I'm so sorry you lost your Father, but rest assured he wanted you with him at that moment and you gave him a beautiful gift, (((Hugs)))

John, I'm glad you said you think you could do it. It's difficult to explain but out of all human experiences, even that of giving birth, the moment someone gazes into your eyes and you gaze back at them begging you to 'end it' for them it is as if a soul touches a soul so deep there is no deeper touching. But it is at that time you offer the sedation they already stated they wanted upon admission - amazingly, these people are often the ones that require such little sedation to remove pain and suffering.

Many people probably won't touch this subject, and for differing reasons - some may be too close to their heart at this time of their lives, others through fear of the unknown. What many people don't 'get' is that it isn't easy to actually die. Not even when terminally ill, so a terminal Dx doesn't mean death is nigh. The actual dying phase of life is generally only 3-4 days. And no, I don't want to have those days drawn out to feel like years! No one need have that.

Everyone keeps on about Morphine. Goodness, morphine would be used way way before actual dying phase even commences, and many people need nothing more, but many do require more, but Morphine is the baby compared to meds generally used to alleviate pain.

If I had a choice I'd go out on Propofol as the first med - another after that. I had my first taste of Propofol to put me to sleep for surgery in July of this year - oh my, it was the most beautiful feeling ever and I was lucid on it for about 10 mins and my anesthatist said 'enjoy the ride'. I surely did, and I'm 100% drug naive having never even tried weed let alone other drugs.

Interesting thread. Glad to hear you are off the alcohol, David. The world is too wonderful a place to not live and thrive with all your faculties. But that's just my opinion, as a non-drinker.

Just FYI, in case of interest: I live in a state where assisted suicide is legal. However, it is not really "assisted." You must administer your own pills. There are two: one to alleviate the nausea and make you feel better, and a second pill that puts you out (forever). There is a "catch 22" here in that the first pill might make you feel so good you decide you don't want to die. This happened to someone I knew. He felt so good after the first pill that he didn't want to take the second. He ended up deteriorating to where he was not able to put the second pill into his own mouth, and nobody else could legally do it for him. So, he ended up dying naturally anyway.

"...Would you do drugs if you were given month to live? Why or why not. "

Nope. I don't like taking prescription meds, but my doctor says to keep taking my bp meds if i want to continue walking around awhile longer.


"...Would you do something stupid and dangerous because you had nothing left to lose?"

Nope. Did enough stupid, dangerous stuff in the military.


What I would do is have a cigarette again before I "departed". I started smoking cigarettes back in high school, and now at 61 yrs old I haven't had one in 3 yrs this coming January. I still want a cigarette everyday, but am determined not to start again. Nicotine is one addictive substance I haven't seen mentioned here (but I haven't read the entire thread).

Thank you Zeana. :-)