Ferguson

I've managed to stay away from this on Facebook, radio, TV and the rest of the web. Think I'll keep on keeping away from it.

Is it self-defence, when You fire all You have (not only one or two shots) ?
Is it self-defence, when the other is unarmed (and You know this because YOU have the weapon in Your hand) ?
Is there no evidence, when there are eye witnesses telling something different (true or not) ?

How can You discuss this without politics ??? Of course it is a question of politics when one of this points is not clear and nevertheless there is no trial.

Nobody including a policeman can do this without at least a serious trial to have the chance to find out what really happened..

I am totally sickened by the whole thing. Neither side is any good.

It is not like that kid was innocent. It is not like we need any more shootings.
supposedly that kid broke the police officer's eye socket. He tried the bash the
cop's head in. He ran for the gun which is why his hand during his charging the gun
was hit first. Choosing this case to stand by is difficult. Ignoring that is not lost on the bigots
out there.

It is not like the African American community should solely be represented by
the poorest among them. And the majority of hard working middle class African Americans
get no say at all. That is not a recipe for success in the least.

It is not like the over all American society has had no hand in this mess. There are white
victims of gun violence out there by the droves as well. There is a huge amount of poverty
in the rest of our society as well.

I have overdosed on this news cycle. It does exactly what we are not supposed to do
in this forum, it irritates like all political discussions will do.

Dave

A jury of our peers was provided all the information available, directly from the sources, and made a decision. How people think they should have made a different decision based on hearsay / news reports is beyond me.

I think it's weird no one is mentioning that footage of him being a total tool just minutes earlier when he is robbing that store. I think that played a major role in the acquittal verdict and makes him more of a perpetrator than a victim. He didn't deserve to die but I'm inclined to think that someone who robs stores isn't a nice guy to begin with.

I also think a black officer would have shot his ass too; any law enforcement agent wants to come home to his or her kids when the shift is over.

I do not know what really happened, but what is the result of yesterday ?
Now everybody knows, that they do not want to find out the truth.

Who is they? And why was that police officer's eye socket broken?

Every single cop in this country talks one line of how to use a gun.

"If you have to draw your gun, you better shoot to kill".

Why was that cop's eye socket broken to prove what? Civil rights?
Is that why the town's businesses were broken into looted and burned down?

I personally was never raised to fight physically with a police officer. My parents
would have apologized to that cop over my body. Is there something wrong with apologizing to that
police officer? His life has been shattered. He was doing his job. Why?

Dave

With they I ment the jury. And I do not see a trial so negative for the policeman: it's to get the whole truth !

A trial would be another jury, and if the verdict was the same? People would be still taking
sides and saying in many cases that we did not get to the truth.

Police officers are allowed to defend themselves. This is common knowledge.
You dont mess with them because they care about your community.

Unless you are a thief and have no regard for the law. Then as a thief
you are supposed to be an outsider to your community. You are not
supposed to be the hero at all. You dont represent a civil rights movement
not matter how needed by doing petty crimes. Never mind attacking a cop
physically inside his cruiser for ha has. This "kid" was a big kid. His idea
of fun, or wilding, was well beyond anything acceptable.

At least I know that. I think you do as well.

There have been more than a half a dozen shootings since. Many of them
would have served to highlight and work on civil rights matters much better
than this case. But the leadership of the African American community
put their eggs entirely into this basket. They have left town by now.

Those leaders made a mark for themselves, but not for civil rights in this country.

The African American middle classes need to take over from the poorest African Americans
as to who should be listened to for forming public policy.

Poor Irish immigrants never had any say. The rising Irish politicians got them civil servant jobs etc.
They became a middle class force to deal with. They did not become a prison population that
was complaining about a lack of rights.

The middle class needs to have the real say. If you cant get a job, you really should not be
representing your folks. That is not how that works. And it has never been an excuse for looting.

Dave

There are two things I note about the situation. First only 9 of the 12 jurors was required to stop an indictment. Which means the vote could have gone strictly along racial lines. Doesn't mean it did. So far I don't think we have that detail. Second, your average person facing a grand jury is facing a hostile state that is seeking a conviction. I think it would be hard for many people to believe the state could be sufficiently hostile toward one of its own. Giving, perhaps only in appearance (but appearances are important) of a conflict of interest. Nevertheless in the end, only one story is being told here, because no true cross examination, the type required in a jury trial was done. And that cross examination might have uncovered problems in the picture that has been painted for us and the news media. I think that is a flaw in the system, and some other procedure needs to be followed that has a true independence to it, when the state is examining potential criminal actions of one of its own.

They released photos of the cop after the incident. He has some bruising and some swelling in his lip. No broken eye socket and not a scratch on his face. I have seen worse from someone getting slapped across the face.

I have my own thoughts on who was right or wrong...but that gets into racial politics...and I'll stay out of that.

combined posts...

Gary,

They have the gun entry wounds. Brown was charging the gun.

They have a cop whose eye socket was broken.

You have a kid who was telling a cop to F himself.

You have a kid who just robbed a convenience store.

This is the wrong case and the wrong way to advance civil rights in this country.

I think the leaders who wish to offer a new civil rights movement for only a few months
centered around this incident have done a major job of self promotion, and a huge disservice
to our nation. Like I said there have been at least another half dozen shootings since that might
have been better to work on for civil rights.

I really dont like the poorest of the poor misleading this whole process. I think our nation
would as a whole have a much greater respect for the large middle class African American population deciding
what policies would help.

Dave

Dave,

Nevertheless you don't have the two sided review that inevitably is required in most criminal matters. Appearances of impartiality are important. And I don't see that being possible. And its not just here but in many other states. In my home state at the moment the police have a bad eye, because of this, that and a startling statistic where more people have been killed by cops in the last decade then by drug dealers and gangs.

I'll leave it at that.

http://www.snopes.com/info/news/wilson.asp

Sorry about the eye socket comments. That part of what I am saying is not true. It is false.

My barber shot me down yesterday when discussing this. The barber was saying the eye socket
was broken. He watches Fox day and night. I do not.

Still this was no easy lets have fun killing this kid call by the officer. This officer was attacked.

I have been steering away from the gun part of this discussion. We are not supposed to discuss politics.
Talk about how heated this could get.


Dave

Gary,

You are right Brown proved it is only one sided. You dont fight physically with an armed man in America.

You know that.

If he is a police officer usually he wont even go home for the afternoon, unless he wants some time off with pay.

It is what it is, not that I agree with it in the least.

Dave

The idea that someone not being a nice guy is in any way relevant to whether it was right to shoot him seems bizarre to me, likewise swearing at a cop has never been an offence meriting death, to the best of my knowledge, but then I'm not American. Apart from that, I have no idea.

Paul, he wasn't shot because he robbed the store but because he attacked a police officer and put him in a him-or-me situation. From what I've been able to gather, he was walking in the middle of the road when the officer addressed him and things escalated from there.

Was there anything said about Brown being on drugs by chance? He came across as quite hyped up when robbing that store and minutes later he's picking a fight with an armed cop. Doesn't sound like rational behavior, but then I'm not American either.

Keep this off gun laws and you can keep this going

Hands in the air, obeying instructions, don't shoot.
If you put your head down and charge the cop "like a fooball tplayer", don't expect the cop to do anything different.

I didn't see the all testimony and evidence, and neither (I assume) did anybody else here.

Seems like the case was prosecuted by the press, in my opinion.
Seems to me like the press is also fanning every expectation of violence.

If you're a parent, explain to your kids that the police are always to be treated as if they are right, even if they are wrong.
Then, afterward, if you want to debate or fight, that's what the courts are for.
Don't try to fight the police, you won't win.

I will say this much.

The American Bar Association is questioning the decision on this non indictment. According to this article, and others, the Bar is intent on seeing that the Department of Justice pursue this matter further.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/25/1347398/-National-Bar-Association-calls-for-Federal-Charges-against-Darren-Wilson#

Oh. One other thing.

I believe it a mistake to attempt to try this case in the media, or on a discussion forum such as this.

Great work by some brave photojournalists and photographers!

Seems like injustice protests always manage to pick the wrong test case.

I give it a couple hours before it gets seriously political and shut down. Just a guess, but prove me wrong and it will stay open.

My opinion? The Grand Jury got 70 hours of testimony from both sides. I did not. I will trust their choice as they know far more than I do about the case.

I bet before noon today this becomes racial & political. Shall we take bets on how long it lasts before someone closes?
I give it 3 hours.

Dear Rich,

You're not black either, at least judging by your avatar. It's not a color thing, it's a right and wrong thing.

Conversely, just because you don't understand a cop's job from the comfort and safety of your home and you think it was excessive force and you know far more than the Grand Jury doesn't make it right either.

You can try and come up with a better argument yourself but it really doesn't matter as the Grand Jury has made their decision much like the misguided young man made his

It is certainly true one cannot understand what it is like to be black unless one is in fact black. It is also true that you will never understand what it is like to be a cop unless you have been one.

As far as I know, you can speak from niether point of view with any inside information or authority. You might as well be critiquing the Cowboys QB on passing technique vs how well the DBs defended against it.

Hi Historic,

That's why I hate myself for getting lured into these silly debates.

Hi Kelley... you are right about that... I am done here. ;O)

It's Thanksgiving! Give it a rest!

There's only one person who's happy about the events in Ferguson. Bill Cosby.

I love you all, even if we see things from different points of view. I hope you all shared some time with family and friends. Happy Thanksgiving!

This thread has become some what of a pulpit. I for one am not going to visit another thread where the OP does not attend the discussion.

Well, I was going to stay out of this discussion, but when I read statements like this...well I feel like I need to say something.

“His life wasn't in danger,EVER! He was in his patrol car and if he STAYED in that car, the kid would still be alive,PERIOD!” --- Rich.

I, like others, watched, and carefully listened to the Stephanopoulos interview. I am confident that this is the same thing that Darren Wilson told the Grand Jury.

Apparently, the Grand Jury believed him. As I, and others here, did.

Touching briefly on the testimony of any witnesses that may have testified before such jury that Brown had his hands raised and was surrendering? I may only surmise here.

My best GUESS is to believe that such testimony may have conflicted with those that may have stated the same thing, except that such conflicted testimony may have been so that combined, the testimony was deemed not credible and was therefore dismissed.

Apparently the link to the interview with Darren Wilson, conducted by George Stephanopoulos has been lost in the big skip.

For the edification of those that have yet to see the vidio, here it is again.



One other point. Rich also stated:

“But I don't agree that the cop that was punched,had ANY right to shoot to death that kid. Arrest him absolutely! And safely. Sit in the car and in 30 seconds, this thug would have been surrounded by cops.”

First of all, Wilson stated that Brown was attempting to take control of his gun. Apparently the gun misfired twice during this struggle for the officer's gun. As well, the channel on the officers radio was inadvertently changed during this struggle.

Thirty seconds you say? By what do you base this time estimate on?

I have a question for you, Rich. Have you watched the Stephanopoulos/Wilson interview. And if so, do you believe Officer Wilson? And if not, why not?

For a no-holds-barred discussion of this issue, go to this thread...if you dare:

http://fineartamerica.com/groups/everything-in-moderation-including-moderation.html?showmessage=true&messageid=2207541

But if you're a bit shy bout playing hardball, take a moment to watch Chris Rock, who has a strong message he'd like to share with those thugs visiting Ferguson, MO in this short, hysterically funny video titled, "How not to get your ass kicked by the police!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

I"ll agree with 50% of your statement " It's not a color thing, it's a right and wrong thing." It is indeed a right or wrong thing and shooting this unarmed thug,shooting at him 8-10 times and hitting him 6-8 times was wrong. It is/was a racial thing and this wasn't the first time white cops,which is about 95% of the force, are white, abuse their power against black citizens. DWB is the National term for that abuse.

HG/JC, Cowboys suck! I'm not a Cowboy,never played NFL football, but based on last night game and score, I can make a pretty good and sound judgement and say the Cowboys didn't play as well as the Eagles.See how easy that was?

I don't need to be a cop to understand that a cop used excessive force and killed a kid that had just assaulted him, still not proven,except by the cop and he could have just hit his own head against the window/door post. Don't know if the kid was going for his gun either, just the words of the cop. Who knows,maybe the kid saw the cop go for the gun and the kid tried to stop from being shot? Who knows? The cop, and what benefit to him would there be, to change HIS story?

And part of you sorry argument, is that a white person can't understand what a black person is going through? I guess you better inform ALL the News channels and let them know that, I mean they have mostly white people on the news and by your theory, they don't know what they're talking about? Did I get that right?

Bottom Line: A black kid was shot and killed by a white cop,6-8 times. This isn't about how nice a kid that Michael was,where he should have been or what he should have done, that is over. This is only about whether a white cop, in this racially charged county,used excessive force or not, in shooting and killing this thug/bully.

And no, I don't believe this cop in his interview, if the truth is different than what he has said, he goes to jail,for a long time..........

Rich

" It is indeed a right or wrong thing and shooting this unarmed thug,shooting at him 8-10 times and hitting him 6-8 times was wrong."

Ok so Rich how many times did he need to shoot him for you to say it was ok?

Once in the head? Three times? Seven times.

" A black kid was shot and killed by a white cop,6-8 times."

Would it have been ok if he was shot by a black cop? Or a Hispanic cop? Or a purple cop?

How many times could a black cop shoot him? Would it be ok if a black cop shot him 6-8 times?


Crime is crime. It doesn't matter what color the criminal or the victim or the cop is. If you commit a crime, you deal with the cops. Why makes this a color issue? Are the cops making up crimes so they can put a black person in the back of their car or are they arresting people that are committing a crime? Of you commit a crime and the cops arrest you it's not because of the color of your skin, t is because you committed a crime. Can't be much more simple than that. Or do you think we SHOULDN'T arrest someone that commits a crime because of the color of the skin and that would make the cops look "racist"?

How sad...

Ideologues always claim to lean on the facts... unless those facts go against the tenets they are rooted in.

Injustices cannot be righted when based on a foundation of another injustice.

While I have read most but not all the comments on this topic, it seems to me that lacking in this discussion...so far...is that a fair and impartial rendering as to the guilt...or innocence...of the parties has been hijacked by the mass hysteria created by mainstream corporate media.

CNN, Fox "News" and the broadcast networks, and sadly even PBS through the high-priest pressure of competition for market share, have succumbed to the media driven mania. Even Charlie Rose, whom I consider to be a serious and ethical TV 'journalist'...'interviewed' the parents of Michael Brown.

It was a display of shameless pandering. I do not for one minute believe that the parents did not suffer a parent's worst nightmare...the death of a child.

But, does the death of Michael Brown, under ambiguous, dubious circumstances at best deserve any more consideration than the death of countless children black children living in the killing zone of the streets of America? Including by police?

Rather than being hailed as the poster child of racial injustice...if we take a step back and look at the meta-facts...we may get a peek at the levers being pulled behind the curtain.

The endless shelf-life of this incident is being driven by the manipulation and exploitation by the mainstream media of Michael Brown, his family, and yes, the society. Rather, he and this unfortunate incident should become the poster child for the dangers of media consolidation and concentration in the hands of mega-corporations who have no allegiance to the community or the greater good that might conflict with their primary corporate charter...rate of return of the shareholders.

CNN's and its 24 news cycle cohorts..are like a predatory bloodthirsty sharks constantly circling in search of fresh meat...and like a shark it must always keep moving forward or it dies.

All the major TV nets, with exception of PBS, are advertising-supported (which sadly for survival, is now beginning to change). The rates for advertising for the so-called clients are based on CPM (Cost Per Thousand) which is determined by the ratings...or viewership.

The incessant fanning of the flames of racial injustice, sadly make for compelling TV. Add some burning cars and buildings...with indignant 'protestors' chanting for justice and you've got a relatively inexpensively produced reality TV show worthy of prime time...commanding prime time rates for advertisers.

There is a constant inherent moral hazard to find...and in this case stimulate and shape...and PERPETUATE...controversy to maximize viewership, in oder to attract advertisers and drive up the CPM. The more advertisers you attract for a relatively finite amount of advertising windows in programming, creates a classic supply/demand business model. The greater the demand the higher the price.

Polarization through innuendo, shading of information, racial injustice skillfully insinuated, which used to be considered unethical by the pantheon of TV newsmen, like Cronkite and Murrow is now embraced as Best Business practices by Corporate Media.

Is it any wonder that our political system of selecting candidates for public office is so contaminated...so broken, through manipulation and exploitation by Big Money, used predominantly for TV advertising?

"This is only about whether a white cop, in this racially charged county,used excessive force or not, in shooting and killing this thug/bully."
That is the crux of it and how a police department is protected by the prosecution preventing this case from being tried in an adversarial system.

Sydne,

Thank You! That's ALL this is about.

A side aspect is the fact that you mention, the police "bending" information and the county prosecutor "overseeing" the grand jury. That's all, you can even remove the racial aspect and the question remains,was this an example of excessive by the police.

My contention was that it was, others here feel that he got what he deserved and no amount of discussions or rhetoric will change my mind or any of the others,

Rich

Perhaps I should have stayed out of the conversation. What good is it to have a discussion when valid points are simply ignored and so many speculations are made?

Brilliantly written, Michaelalonzo! Bravo!

His testimony is very well rehearsed it has to be and the prosecution lets him testify without challenging a word he said. This is speculation on my part, I will admit to it; Initially he went to a scene where there was a complaint of two guys obstructing traffic because they were walking in the middle of the street. We know Wilson tells them to move on the sidewalk. Wilson states he noticed cigarillos in the hand of Brown and they fit the description of the two guys in the Fergueson Market incident. This has been recanted and he never mentioned to the first officer on the scene anything about his connecting the two to the earlier event. He tells the officer the guys would not get on the sidewalk and what happened thereafter. IF his testimony had been challenged, the first thing would be to attack the first discrepancy in his testimony, "Officer Wilson why didn't you mention to the first responding officer your suspicions of the two in a possible burglary at the Fergueson Market?" A funny thing about that I don't believe they arrested Dorian Johnson for being an accomplice to a burglary, odd.

Now Wilson stated he saw the cigarillos and remembered the incident at the corner market, right there I would think there is police protocol to call for back up. He should have stayed where he was and watched where they went and waited for back up, but he didn't. Instead in the process Wilson says, "Whats wrong with the sidewalk!" Words were exchanged, they were almost to their destination and Wilson pulls in reverse cutting them off. My conjecture Officer Wilson is pissed, he was ignored, police officers do not cater to disobedience. This action is the crux of the eventual event, adrenaline starts moving in anger by both Wilson and Brown. Dorian stated he almost hit them. Now by Wilsons testimony he asks Brown to come to the car, wait a minute Officer Wilson doesn't know if Brown is carrying....why in the name of Gods green earth would he ever place himself in that situation if he didn't know? Either he is so pissed off or he doesn't believe he does. By Wilsons account there ensued the contact, Brown reached in, his upper body inside the window and blows by Brown to Wilson. Here is the interesting point, Brown reaches for Wilsons gun and in the struggle was shot in the hand. Now if Hulk Hulgen with the demon face had, had a gun why would he be reaching for Wilsons gun? If he had a gun, and he was angry, why not pull it out right then and finish it? As a matter of fact when he went towards the window of the car, if he had a gun it was an opportunity, Wilson opened himself up, but Brown didn't because he didn't have a gun. Its a pretty good bet from what happened there Darren Wilson knew he did not have a gun and was not a threat. Brown turns and runs away with Dorian. The rest is history, and sad for all, including Darren Wilson, I am sure he did not want to kill the boy, but he did.

Everyone has a 100% win record in Monday morning quarterbacking.

Even those that have never stepped foot on a football field.

Everyone wants to come off like they would have been some sort of hero, like that if they were in Wilson's shoes they could of and would of been able to subdue this guy with out violence or at least without killing him. Oh how wonderfully sensitive you are! It's real easy to come off with all this righteous bs when you are sitting back, safe and out of harms way in your easy chair

But these same people would wet their pants if they ever really faced real danger.

People think the police forces should be made up Mr Rogers clones and then send them out on the streets with tasers and rubber bullets to face murdering thugs and psychopaths.

You know what Floyd I may have not stepped foot on the football field but I do know how it is played by sitting on my couch. And yes, I would wet my pants and more if I ever faced real danger.

Walter Holland: I agree. Like talking to the wall. Whatever we have to say is not going to make an iota of a difference. We all seem to be either 100% on one side or 100% on the other side. However, it is good that we have a venue to say whatever it is that we want to say....at least, we still have that freedom, and we should be thankful for that.

I'd like to see the black community in Ferguson police themselves from this point forward. That would put an end to all this unrest and the "white cop vs.black victim" mentality.

I'm just waiting for that person with the cell phone video to come forth out of fear and hiding and reveal the REAL truth.

Wouldn't THAT be something?!

***Floyd,

Your arguments aren't getting any better. "Everyone wants to come off like they would have been some sort of hero, like that if they were in Wilson's shoes they could of and would of been able to subdue this guy with out violence or at least without killing him." NO,that's not what ANYONE is saying. Please just read what's being said, instead of saying what you want to have heard. Nobody is saying that "IF I WERE THERE,I would have handled it better!"

We only have the word of the cop that shot the kid, that the kid was going for his gun. What if the cop was pulling his gun out and Michael was trying to stop the cop from shooting him? And then that was the scuffle?

Calling that kid a "to face murdering thugs and psychopaths." You're showing a bit of that other card I talked about now, huh?

I think cops should be made up of folks that don't enjoy running around with big guns, that's what I think......

Rich

Rich, you keep eluding to the fact that my comments or position is based on race. YOU are the one that keeps playing that card. I have never said one word or made any reference what so ever about race. That seems to be your thing. Stop trying to pretend you are taking the high ground.

This is not about race, never has been about race. It is about law enforcement. It is about having to make life and death decisions in a split second and doing what you feel you have to do because some sleazeball, black, white, brown or purple person puts you in that position. Brown deserved what he got. He spent a life time building up to a point to where he was going to find himself in the position of either kill or be killed. That was HIS doings, not Wilson's. Brown picked Wilson, not the other way around.

"I think cops should be made up of folks that don't enjoy running around with big guns"

That is way out of line! There is zero evidence that Wilson "enjoyed running around with big guns". NONE what so ever. He had never even drawn is weapon before. Now look at Brown's history. Now look at who you are defending and who you are crucifying.

You have made it abundantly clear not only in this tread, but in threads in the past. You hate cops Rich, we are seeing that clear as a bell. Hope you never need one. If some 230 pound thug ever goes after you or one of your loved ones or has his hands around your neck, I bet you would be praying to God that a cop as brave as Wilson gets to you on time.

You better hope that we as a society can keep finding cops like Wilson to stand up to the lowlifes like Brown. But if we keep throwing them under the bus, they are going to stop signing up. Then who is going to keep you safe and preserve your right to play holier then thou? The Browns? Ya, good luck with that.

Wilson deserves a medal. Not a lynching like some of you want.

OK.. everyone let's hug it out ;O)

Rich Franco wrote: "I think cops should be made up of folks that don't enjoy running around with big guns, that's what I think...... "

Hey Rich...I think cops should be trained to use The Force in situations where force is necessary, and they should be well-versed in the ways of the Jedi, too; light-sabers are okay, but blasters are 'right out.'

What do you think?

People think the police forces should be made up Mr Rogers clones and then send them out on the streets with tasers and rubber bullets to face murdering thugs and psychopaths.


Works for our police. (Tazers and rubber bullets)

Our armed units are specially trained and only sent out on a special need basis. They aim to maim not kill. Unless necessary and one shot is all that's needed normally. We see America as a gun happy culture that we fear the UK may one day become. Long may it never happen.

Now, the op is not joining in so I'm closing this now. Thank you for not getting too bad with each other. Gives me hope for future relaxing the rules discussions.