A Newbee On Faa

Hi Dave,

Take heart. Maybe it's not your time yet, just don't give up. :-)

You have to promote yourself to be successful. Period.

Every time this question comes up - that will always be the answer.

Here are some of the hundreds of marketing posts on the forum

Evaluating Your Own Work To Sell http://pixels.com/showmessages.php?messageid=1192902
Elephant In The Room - Maybe Your Art Just Isnt That Good... http://pixels.com/showmessages.php?messageid=2201441
A Few Reasons Y U May Not Be Selling http://pixels.com/showmessages.php?messageid=2040787
The Formula To Pricing Art? http://pixels.com/showmessages.php?messageid=2193130

You have asked for feedback. Please realise this may mean good and bad. If you do not want the bad, please say so now before other answers happen

the eye might creep people out.

you are a small fish in a big pond. that won't change.

if you only think that 10 images are good, then don't upload the rest. you should only have your best and that may be a part of the problem. when you upload things make sure you only post stuff you would hang yourself.


keep backgrounds straight for example. the keywords in this - not many will type any of those in. tell us what this is, words people might use to find it.

you have many images that are mirror images that look pretty much the same, few will buy a random shot of a dog on a beach, i would label that pet photo.


and the effect that you used makes it totally blurry looking, i can't imagine the buyer. you have too few keywords and the words used are all in phrase form.


you have 2 of these they look the same. this isn't in focus, or if that filter your using to make it more painterly - it only makes it look soft.


looking over things most of your images are crooked. water shouldn't ever lean - unless its a shore line moving away.


there are tons of sunsets on this site. choose the one you like best - and upload only the one. you have many that look a like. and each one seems to have a filter over it. like you couldn't decide which is best. if the customer has to fuss over it, they will move on.


the jetski could sell if it didn't have those effects, that blur or that thing in the center. isolating a subject is important.

always use better descriptions. having a fancy camera and shooting in raw, then applying heavy filters, those two cancel out.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Hi Dave, love your gallery, you have a shortage of Tag words and you never joined my group, Nuts, Seeds and Berries. I would also join Google +, stumble-upon, and About me
It could take awhile for a sale Dave, you just never know, the secret is to get your name and work out there and be seen.
Wish you the best.
Conor

Dear Mike,

I agree with your opinion about uploading everything. So many times artists begin their site with art they're proud of, then they get much better but keep the old stuff around because they can't bear to let what's inferior go. The site should at least look consistent.

Hi Dave,
You said you have hundreds of images that you don't think are great. Instead of spending all that time working on images you don't think are great, why don't you just put the ones up for sale that you think are great, and give those images all your time and effort to promote. See what happens and ad from there.

"1. My work is s**t* (OK 600 images not all great but I believe there are at least 5-10 in there some where that have great potential"

Your art is not s**t*. And I totally disagree with uploading or showing only your best. Stop thinking that way. If you think that, why should anyone buy it?

Bad art sells here and all over the net every day, every minute actually. I am not saying your art is bad, I am saying no one can tell you what people will buy and what they will not buy. But I can tell you that if you do not show it, they will no buy it. I have found there is a direct relationship to the number of images and the number of sales.

Now that assumes a certain lever of competence as a photographer which you obviously have.

I have posted images here and told they would never sell. They had already sold and are still selling.

You are trying to sell images, not get something hung in the Guggenheim.

"Belong to 136 groups"

That is part of you problem. You are wasting too much time in the groups and as you have already learned, that is not going to get you sales. For the most part, those groups are only see by other FAA members and they are not buyers to an great degree. Stay away from the groups and contests and the whole crazy race for features and likes and favorites and comments. The do add a tiny bit to you possible search position. But there are over 100,000 members with 7 million images. You have zero chance of ever catching up.

Read the articles on my blog: http://fineartamerica.com/profiles/fasgallerycom.html?tab=blog

A Few Reasons Y U May Not Be Selling
Advertising Your FAA Artistwebsite
In Addition to - Advertisng Your FAA AW
Advertising How Much Is Too Much
The 25 75 Rule For New Artist and Members of FAA

Bottom line is promote OUTSIDE FAA. Promote your Aristwebsite and forget the views. Views are a result of success not a way to success.

Floyd Snyder is right.

Looks like u have plenty of feed back, and all very good.
Myself I am not a pro, but I listen to people and use their feed back, these people have helped me open my eyes to things I haven't noticed before.
And yes it has helped. So good luck and hang in there..

Dave here are some questions that might also help you in determining what to sell.

Does bad art sell? Yes it sure does

What type of bad art usually sells? Art that brings back a memory of a place or situation someone was in, like even a street corner that a best friend was killed in a car accident, or a spot that two people met.

Bad art does not sell to people who understand art.

Also art galleries, designers, and good clients look around sites like this to find new talent. You have to treat anything you show in public or online like a portfolio. I don't agree with anyone telling you to put bad art anywhere for sale. Sure it just might sell, but is that what you want to be known as?

Dear Floyd,

You said bad art sells every minute, and that's true (depending on what is perceived to be bad.) Dave has made his desire known regarding sells, but he hasn't stated what criteria he has created for himself as an artist, whether it's just to sell, or explore his ultimate creative potential as well.

no. like totally no.

if you owned a restaurant, would you sell bad food? would you put your weakest dishes up where everyone could buy it? no. because every piece you put up, represents the other things. put bad stuff up and someone stumbling over it will leave the rest. they won't be curious to see more. if i eat something at a cafe that was less than optimal, i wouldn't want to go back.

always show your best. and people will see you as a professional artist. how many pro photographers that you know will show all 1000 images they took in the jungle? none, they show the best 3 images that look the best above all others. if you saw all the duds they would look like they got lucky with the 3.

just because a bad one sells now and then doesn't mean you should upload bad stuff overall. that makes no sense at all.


groups are seen by search engines. and the more your in the higher your chances are someone will stumble of your work, even by accident. i'm on over a 1200 groups. works well enough for me. enter the contests. at the very least you'll see if you have things people might want and keywords that you didn't know you needed. plus i've sold things from contests. people see everything and these things are easy and free. unless your awesome at advertising or your a well known name, every way to push your work and get it seen the better.

many people look at groups and contests at work - other see your work that way as well.

you should also promote outside as well.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

welcome to FAA, Dave.

Why bad art will sell over good art.

This assumes a certain lever of competence and most, not all, but most of the people I have seen asking for help have reached that lever of competence.

In today's highly competitive market the obvious is not always the case.

All things being equal If a buyer is looking at good, but not great seascapes art and right next to it they are seeing great seascapes, one would assume the great seascape art is going to sell. That simply is not always be the case. Here's why.

We are not selling art. We are selling a decorating accessory. Couple that with the fact that most people have no idea what good art is or is not and really don't care. They only know what they like. More times than not the bar is set pretty low as for the actual artistic qualities scale and much higher on the "does it match the drapes or the couch" scale.

So, if in the example above, if the high quality seascape does no match the couch or the drapes, it is not going to sell in a whole lot of cases.

Then there is the subject specific factor. If a buyer is looking for working cowboy scene and all they find is good quality, not fantastic, but good, they are not going to buy a floral or a beach scene just because it is of higher quality. If some one sees an image that stirs some sort of memory or emotional response, they are more like to buy it even if it is only good, then some image that does not stir them at all even if it much better quality wise.

Gifting is another thing that is a consideration. I sell a lot of art that I drop ship to an address other then the buyer. They are just as likely to buy something for a gift because of the subject of the piece then the quality. I would bet that half the homes in America has a piece of artwork hidden in a closet or attack that they only hang with the "giver" is visiting.

When you stare eliminating the number of images, you are limiting the buyers choices. Buyers want choices. Shear numbers will sell art. There are internet statistics that will tell you that the longer you can get people to stay on you webpage, the more likely it is that they will buy something. If you have 10 great images and only ten, how long is anyone going to stay?

Also keep one thing in mind. If you advertising your ArtistWebsite and only your ArtistWebsie, you are the best artist/photographer there.

lets put it this way

good art sells itself

bad art can sell if you push it hard enough.

bad art can sell depending on what it is, how bad it is, and where it was. if you shoot a location that doesn't exist any more - a beach resort, a landmark of some kind etc, you have a higher chance at selling it. but if not, then you get lucky being seen first.

present a portfolio with bad work to a gallery and they will point to the exist. and tell this gallery about this theory and i can promise you they will give you such look if they don't walk away first.

you do want choices. choices of good work. take a 100 pictures choose 3 of the best ones. don't show them all. nothing worse than showing a customer a huge selection of bad work. there might be a gem hidden in the mass but it won't help you to sell it better. good work takes time, but as time goes on you amass a huge collection of good images. don't rely on stats. they might work if people are in your store. but if you have a store of only weak images, you won't attract people and they won't stay for very long.

you have 10 images that are good? fantastic. keep uploading that quality and try to improve even more. don't dump everything on here hoping to sell by luck and numbers. i sell enough stuff on here that i know what i'm talking about.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I agree Kelly, but he has entered the market place with what he has and what he has is sellable if it advertised and marketed properly.

No one should suggest that he or anyone one should not continue to grow and improve. That goes for painting on canvas, taking photographs or playing golf for that matter.

People keep telling people in here that only the best art sells. That is just flat wrong.

There are people here that think that only the best artist/photographers should even be allowed to be here. That too is wrong.

This is a place to sell images, not try to make the most remarkable artistic statement one can make with a paint brush or a camera. This is not the Art Institute or the Guggenheim.

"if you owned a restaurant, would you sell bad food? would you put your weakest dishes up where everyone could buy it?"

That is just crazy. Half the menu item or more in any restaurant are totally unappealing to most of the people that eat there regularly.

People look at the menu and they buy what they want.

What part of "assumes a certain lever of competence as a photographer" didn't you understand?

What part of "I am not saying your art is bad" didn't you understand?

its not about being unappealing to the customer. if the chef knows its bad, it shouldn't be up there. simple as that. its not about - not liking burgers because i like veggies.

its like presenting:

blackened steak with crunchy bits
hamburger, served raw, 3 days old, no bun
salad made from fresh grass from my lawn.

if its bad you don't serve it. simple logic.

i have many things that won't fit everyones tastes, but what i make, tastes good.

that's the part your not understanding here, i understand now.

bad images are ignored over good images. not every image will look good in their house, no matter how the presentation is made. but what i'm saying is - don't upload 600 snap shots of a vacation, choose the best show the best. that's it.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Your not just selling your art here, your selling yourself (Your Brand). Its up to you what you want to put up for sale.
Best

I am a great believer in having a nice Avatar picture of yourself, I think it brings a professional look to your site and also it brings the potential buyer closer to the artist and can identify the artist better.
Some Avatars are literally a put off.
Best of luck.
Conor

" I don't agree with anyone telling you to put bad art anywhere for sale. "

I have never told anyone to upload bad art. What I have told people is that no one here can tell anyone what will sell and what will not.

There is not one gallery on FAA where I could not go pick out art that "I" think is not that particular artist's best. Where does that start and stop?

"Also art galleries, designers, and good clients look around sites like this to find new talent'.

I have no idea to what degree this is happening, but when it does, those people certainly have the ability to go through a portfolio and pick out what they want. The also have the good sense to NOT judge the entire portfolio based on the art they do not like.

If you are looking to get published or hung in a gallery, that is a total different thing and it would entail a total different approach. To hamper your potential selling on FAA by thinking you are going to be discovered and on your way to fame and fortune is a crazy idea. I am not saying it is not happening. I am saying that the chances are so remote that I would never let that possibility limit my sales.

I have reviews portfolios for publishing and for hanging in a gallery. A good portion of the time we would pick a image the artist themselves did not like.

Hi Floyd,

Thank you for responding. I think it's a good exercise for everyone to be clear about what they want to achieve and how to do that. Many people are here for all sorts of reasons. I'm here because I enjoy the community side of this site.

I don't complain about sales because I'm not promoting and working toward that goal. I have however, paid for a premium site and enjoy visiting among the many talented people here.

One thing I know for certain is when I worked in the commercial art field, my work was consistent and I consistently got paid.

Well Mike, I have sold a million or two images around the world in a 40 year career of selling art and that includes selling here on FAA. So just maybe I know a thing or two myself.

FAA is a very, very small part of the over all art market. If anyone ever intends to be successful selling art, they had better be able to reach way beyond FAA. And you better be able to appeal to the largest number of potential buyers as you possible can.

Picking ten images and promoting them is not going to get it done. Sorry, not unless you have some sort of special circumstances like a few of the people here on FAA have. But how likely is that.

If you are happy being a big fish in a small pond that is fine. But one of the great benefits of belonging to FAA is you can reach way beyond that small pond. And being ever a little fish in much, much larger pond can reap far more rewards.

FAA gives you the tools to do that. Making yourself a household word in FAA by being in a hundred or a thousand groups is not going to help you reach a broader market. It is going to sap you of precious time and energy that could be used to attack a broader market where the real buyers are.

"Why bad art will sell over good art. "
"Bad art sells here and all over the net every day, every minute actually. "

if you have a good eye, and your good at seeing patterns, you can tell what should sell by looking at it. while there are always fluke images that sell anyway, by experience you can easily figure out what things should sell. i do this all the time with my own work.

good is always relative, but it starts with the artist. if they don't think it's good - why should i? if the image isn't cared for - its snap shot without a good subject, its crooked, it's over cooked with filters - you can tell which ones are the best of that bunch pretty easily - if you have an eye.

in any case, post your best. the best of that moment.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Here's the funny part about what Mike and Floyd are bantering about. They are both right. Why? Because they are both successful at what they do. It's different approaches, aka different business strategies to accomplishing the same thing. In other words, there is no magic bullet.

That said, what I do see as important is making sure people who you are. Many years ago I worked in the Direct Mail industry, i.e. "junk mail". While it was important to draw people into stores with sale fliers that we mailed out for clients, what was more important was keeping a name in front of people. Does anyone remember who Montgomery Ward was? "Monkey Wards as it was affectionately called. Montgomery Ward as a company were masters at direct mail marketing. During the '90s though, among other really bad decisions, they made a decision to cut back on their advertising to save money while stores like Target were increasing their advertising foot print. Where is Montgomery Wards today? Gone. Target? One of America's biggest retailers.

The message here is clear. There is a lot of wall art for sale, if no one knows who you are, no one will buy. And like any business, it can take several years to build a reputation and a following.

that's great floyd, but how much was yours? and how much was a famous painting? there is a difference between the two.

if it was your own stock, stuff you made yourself - then that's a fantastic number. it means that you got your name known well enough that people all wanted your work.

however if it was a famous person - that artist and their promoters did all the work for you. you simply had the work on hand, which is much different. because as an artist you have to promote yourself and your image, and that takes a long time. you don't see a DaVinici snapshot. maybe a rough sketch, but the stuff on the walls was always the best stuff. i know it wrinkles your collar when i mention that to you, but its true. if you didn't have all the movie posters, and famous artworks, and stuff people know about, would your advice work as well as you think it works?

if you had to only rely on your own personal work, and not kind of crutch on the stuff people already know about.


i never said to only have 10 images. the 10 that look great, upload a 100 more just like it. that's what you advertise. don't upload 500 fillers, it won't help you, it will probably just hurt you. don't upload experiments either. or repeated images that all look the same. only pick the ones that are best.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

@Mike and Floyd...

I think the thing is... you are both right. Dave will just have to pick and choose from your suggestions [ and others of course ] to fit his vision of what he want to accomplish here. ;O)

welcome Dave!

Different places to sell your work should not be for selling your good art and your bad art in different places, it should be for different types of your art like abstracts, photos and such that sell better in different places. Makes no sense to me knowingly putting sub-par work anywhere. If you don't think its sub-par, that's another thing, and not willingly doing it just to hopes it will boost sales because of quantity. If you only have 5 images that are good enough to sell, why would you start with 100. 95 bad ones just to get noticed.

Do you see Peter Lik selling bad images on one site and his best on others. That would be very bad business, and I'm sure he has some pretty bad ones that he would never show as we all do.

"that's great floyd, but how much was yours? and how much was a famous painting? there is a difference between the two. "

A whole bunch of it Mike. And we hardly ever did "famous people" as you refer to it. We did new artist for the most part that we attracted via running ads for new artist in a couple of the art magazines of the day. We didn't do "famous" people because it WAS NOT easy to sell them. There are several dozen publishing houses out there that sell the "famous" people as you refer to them. And they are still out there and they sell them dirt cheap and they take MORE effort to sell, not less because of that competition.

And there is no difference. Selling art is what we are talking about.

Selling anything is the same. Just a different product to a different market.

Mike, you need to try to accept the fact that there are people out there that just don't agree with you. And there are people that know more about some things then you think you know. Advertising and promoting is one of them.

It was like in the other thread. In one statement you said you have never paid for advertising to sell your own art and only rely on free outlets like Twitter and Facebook. Then you told some one that AdWords did not work and rattled off several reason. How can it be that you never advertised on AdWords but yet you are an expert on it?

Have you ever looked through anyone's portfolio sat down across the table with them and reviewed it for possible publishing or hanging in a gallery? I don't think you have.

I don't care if you sell a million image a day. What works for you is not always and probably most of the time, not going to work fore everyone. You have found and exploited a nich market. And you have done a great job of it and you have great artwork.

You were on FB and Twitter when there was significantly less people trying to sell art on Social Media. Just the huge influx of new members of FAA flooding FB and Twitter has skyrocketed.

You have been on FAA back when all those contest and groups were the way to go.That was the way to get FAA search engine ranking. But things have changed. Would you be able to pull that off if you were just getting stated today? Would you be able to transfer that success to the overall art market if FAA went away tomorrow?

I don't know the answers to that. But I can speculate that you would not be able to do what you have done on FAA in the greater over all market place with your limited knowledge of advertising and promotion and willingness to advertise.

Big fish, little pond.

Oh, and Dave, I keep forgetting to mention, I agree with everyone else that has said the eye avatar maybe should be reconsidered.

Alright, this is not the Mike and Floyd show.

Each has their ideas. Both work and are valid.

Debate over.

JC I just came to say exactly the same thing!

Wow, Guy's what a response to my original posting, I feel very 'humbled' by the number of people who took time
to reply, it will take a few days to take' things in'.

As I mentioned I'm new to FAA and learning slowly, able to take criticism of my Photographs (that is how one learns).
It's great to get feed back from people who, like myself are beginners on FAA and also the 'seasoned veterans'

Will go through all replies received and respond.

Dave Byrne-Ireland

Here's something I found in the Dec. issue of Outdoor Photographer. It's one guys use of social media and why he feels it's part of his success. Look at this, then look at his work! Wow. You'd think people would just flock to him. Not so. He needed to connect with people and social media was what helped him do that.

http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/locations/international/off-the-grid.html?start=2#.VHN_scm9d0Q
http://www.chrisburkard.com