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John Crothers

9 Years Ago

The Prison System And Immigration...

Our government just gave a "free pass" to people that have broken the law. Whatever the reasoning, it starts with the fact that these people BROKE THE LAW and are in this country illegally.

But I also know there is a benefit to all of us to have illegal immigrants in this country They do the work nobody else wants to do, specifically, harvesting our food. The fact is they keep our food prices low. If farmers had to pay people a minimum wage our food cost would go up.

But our recent prison thread got me thinking. Why can't we use these prisoners do harvest our food? Chain them up, haul them to the fields and have them work from sun up to sundown.

It solves two problems. It gets our food harvested at a rock-bottom price and it will take the jobs that people in this country illegally do, removing their temptation to be here.

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Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

John, I thought this was Sydne's thread about the prisoners. What a surprise to see it's a new one.

I think that's an excellent idea.

 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

Thanks John I do appreciate your offering of a new thread! I am going to ponder this one.

 

Patricia Strand

9 Years Ago

Yep, I figured we'd have an immigration thread before long now, lol. I'll be pondering this also. Meanwhile, I'm not really a fan of stop-gap measures. A change for the long haul would be better. Your solution, John, is sort of weird on the face of it. Sounds like a nice subject for a futuristic novel. Ever thought about writing? You have some crazy ideas, my friend!

 

John Crothers

9 Years Ago

We don't need an immigration change. There are legal means to become a citizen of this country. Millions of people have legally become citizens. There is no excuse for sneaking in and avoiding the laws. We do need to get rid of the "if you are born here you are a citizen" loophole. It should be if you are born here AND one of your parents is a legal U.S. citizen then you are as well. If not, you have the same status as your parents.

They come here for the work. They work cheap. It does keep our food cost low. Just as shipping manufacturing jobs to China keeps our cost low.



Farmworkers Demographics

There are two to three million farmworkers in the United States.2
The states with the highest farmworker population are California, Texas, Washington, Florida, Oregon, and North Carolina.3
Nearly 80% of farmworkers are male, and most are younger than 31.4
Most farmworkers are married and/or have children; yet almost six out of ten farmworkers live apart from their immediate family members.4
Of farmworkers in the United States, 75% were born in Mexico.4
According to a 2005 survey, 53% of farmworkers are undocumented (without legal authorization), 25% are United States citizens, and 21% are legal permanent residents

http://saf-unite.org/content/united-states-farmworker-factsheet


So half of the two to three million farmworkers are undocumented. That is 1 to 1.5 million workers. We have roughly 2 million prisoners in the United States. The numbers are there to replace illegal immigrants with prisoners. But replacing the illegals with the prisoners it motivates them to be here legally (so they can work) or leave (because they can't get work). It also gives prisoners something to do to pay society back for their room and board. I imagine spending 10-12 hours a day working in the hot sun could also be a deterrent for committing crimes once released.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

Immigration reform based on giving illegal immigrants citizenship seems at the onset a kind and largesse attempt to solve a catch 22 problem. In short, a generous act of benevolence that could evolve into a nightmare. The real root of the problem begins in Mexico itself. Curbing the corruption that drives it's people to flee, to become fugitives from of an unsafe corrupted country run by cartels is really the only solution.

By allowing millions of illegal immigrants to settle in our country without going through the induction process as their predecessors did, we are opening the doors for countless of others to practice dissemination and filter themselves into our country by cheating and using unlawful tactics to pass through our borders and remain here. Today it may be 12 million, tomorrow it could be 50 million.

As great as the United States is we are not prepared to take on the problems of a neighboring country that is unable to rise up and defend itself against a disease that perpetually propagates itself. Instead, we are the victims of their misguided policies inherent of a defeatist country that can't control their officials to protect their own innocent people. Their corruption has seeped through our borders, passed through our states and perpetrated into the land of plenty with their illegal contraband. Yet we open our borders as wide as we can, more than even the law allows so that corruption can spread even more throughout our great United States.

Moreover, why should those that come here illegally have a greater claim to citizenship than those that have followed the rules?

 

Patricia Strand

9 Years Ago

Poverty in Mexico has always been a cause of crossing the border, it's not just the cartels. I don't see it ever ending, unless we build a great wall. Perhaps if Mexico's economy improved and conditions were better there, they wouldn't want to cross over illegally. We don't have Canadians doing that, now do we? No need. What I don't understand is if former presidents took similar measures, then is this going to continue forever? I do agree with granting legal status, as laid out in Obama's plan -- but then it's got to stop. Shore up the borders, plant more police, enforce the laws, whatever. Yet, what incentives do we have for doing that? It will cost money, and I'm not sure what we stand to gain in return.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

Patricia,

How can you compare Canada to Mexico? Why do you think people are poor in Mexico? They are a backward nation that has been victimized by corruption. The cartels there are as brutal as ISIS. The only difference is they use guns instead of knives to terrorize their victims. Have you ever been to Mexico? Have you seen how they live?

You believe in granting legal status to illegals but then you expect it to just stop. What Obama is doing is inviting the whole country to come over here. Is that really all right with you?

 

Patricia Strand

9 Years Ago

Well, the alternative to granting legal status to the millions of Mexicans who are already here, working and have established families is to deport them all. How would that work? Is that really feasible?

I'm certainly not in favor of more illegals pouring over the borders, but how do we stop them? Would deportation send a message to others to not try it? Who knows, maybe it would.

 

John Crothers

9 Years Ago

Immigration always brings to mind Latin countries. I tend to look at ALL other countries as we have people from every nation on Earth coming here.

You don't hear about the illegal immigrants from Cambodia or Australia or Latvia.

Coming from a poor country isn't an excuse to come illegally. There are plenty of poor people in the world that come here legally.

Granting a "free pass" sends a very bad message. Coming into this country illegally is...illegal. If you get caught trying to steal a TV they don't give you a TV as "punishment".

I think any illegals caught in this country should be punished. Not by deportation but with prison time. While in prison they can go to work harvesting our food...for free. If word gets out that if they catch you in America illegally they will put you n prison and put you to work then maybe people will stay home or go through the proper legal channels.

 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

Oh yeah send them to prison and if they weren't criminals before they will end up that way. Great idea!

Your idea of having them harvest food, for free, I find racist. You are focusing on one set group for a specific reason, illegal immigrants who may or may not be criminals. You believe immigrants cross our borders and break our laws of immigration as worthy of prison, but I don't. Most of these people are running for their lives from the cartels.

 

Donna Proctor

9 Years Ago

That's it! Make them into slaves for our benefit.

We as a nation have been there and done that. We aren't going back, John.

Let's capture them, contain them and then make them work for free.

Granted they didn't come here in the bowels of ships, but what you propose is no different than what this country did to them once they arrived.

 

John Crothers

9 Years Ago

If you read what I originally wrote I asked why not use PRISONERS to harvest our food. Instead of using illegal immigrants. Now if you are here illegally you could very well end up a prisoner like any other lawbreaker so you will be out harvesting food WITH them.

Sydne, did you even read what you wrote?

"... illegal immigrants who may or may not be criminals."

Read it. Think about it.


They aren't slaves. Slaves were put into that situation against their will. Prisoners are in prison because of their actions. If you don't want to work on the chain gangs in the fields, don't go to prison.

Deportation is not a punishment, it is an inconvenience. They can just come right back. Others know that if you get caught in this country illegally they will just end you back. Nothing to lose by trying. If there was an actual punishment (like chain gang work) then maybe some will think twice about coming here ILLEGALLY. Notice I stressed the word illegally. I have no problem with immigrants that follow the proper procedure to come into this country. I am not proposing we make them work in the fields. I never said they should take the jobs from the legal workers in this country. They need that income and if they are wiling to follow the rules and are willing to do the work, then they should have the opportunity. I am saying replace the illegal immigrants with prisoners.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

Actually John's idea has been tried before I mean the part about prisoners working for farmers. I just found this article.

http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-puts-prison-inmates-farms-042229643.html

There have been others that used parolees and they had a choice to work or not. Most of them walked off the job as it was too labor intensive for them.

I agree with John about deportation even though it's hard to stomach uprooting someone's life after years of freedom. There have been other proposals such as not giving them birthrights and making them citizens, but giving them work permits and making them pay taxes and such. I just don't know about that either as it's almost what we have now. We need to discourage them from coming here somehow.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

Here's an idea from a woman named Helen Krieble. It's called the Red Card Solution. There's a video.

Instead of kicking the can down the road with deportation, we can let these illegal immigrants leave the United States and then reenter legally. They will be issued a card, screened for criminal offenses,put into the system. They do not become citizens unless they go through proper channels and stand in line. Most of them just want to work and don't care about becoming citizens. The border patrol can then concentrate on the smugglers and criminals that are trying to get in instead of innocent people desperate for work. It's just an idea. Hope you'll watch the video.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Helen-Krieble-red-card-solution/2014/08/11/id/588103/

 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

The question is do Americans truly want immigration reform? As John pointed out they do the work citizens of the US do not want to do, and they do it well. In other words be careful for what you wish for.

Illegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy

There are few subjects that evoke as much emotion as immigration reform, especially since future laws could result in a path to citizenship for over 11 million illegal immigrants.

When analyzed from the vantage point of information derived from reputable, nonpartisan sources (the Pew Research Center, USDA, United States Department of Labor, and leading economists and researchers) then one can obtain a clearer view of this muddled discussion. The truth of the matter is that illegal immigrants are important to the U.S. economy, as well as vital to certain industries like agriculture.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy

Excellent article Debra and the cheese is excellent.
I found this interesting, "Our best workers tend to be the murderers -- because most of the time it's a crime of passion," said Smith. "It's a one-time deal. They've made a mistake and now they're trying to make up for it."

 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

Interesting idea, it has some possibilities. Here is a well rounded article on some of the pro's and con's.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/immigration-activists-gingrich-on-red-card-solution/2011/11/23/gIQAPeWKpN_blog.html

 

Aliceann Carlton

9 Years Ago

Immigration concepts always cause me some bewilderment as I really do not think the planet on which we live has any boundaries except natural ones, nor animals and plants except those set by human habitation. My dad was a legal immigrant to the US from Great Britain in the late 1930s, and he fought in WWII. His allegiance to the US was unquestioning and respectful, however his homeland was always a place of heart for him. While I understand very well the nightmares we have created around the world by setting boundaries and fighting wars over them, I cannot ever encompass their usefulness. If those who want to flee from other countries to seek less violence and death here, and if they want to embrace how we have structured governance and contribute meaningfully, how is it different from the foundation reasons so many immigrated here centuries ago? We decimated those who had settled in these lands before us for egregious reasons. It seems we have a longing to carry on that tradition for generations more.

 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

Perhaps we are territorial creatures by nature?

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

I just finished listening to an hour long webinar of Helen Krieble on the Red Card Solution with questions and answers. One of things that is important and sets her plan apart from others like it, is that the system is set up and run by the private sector (it doesn't cost the taxpayer). It's sort of an employment agency with a data base of jobs. If an employer needs peach pickers and a worker wants to pick peaches for the hourly wage (which has to be at least the minimum wage) the data base connects the two. The worker is given a card after going through the screening, fbi backup checks, is fingerprinted and other things and within 48 hours can go to work. The card is tamper proof with a microchip in it.

They are considered non-immigrants as they are not illegal nor citizens. Contrary to what Sydne's pro and con article said, they can still apply for citizenship, but they have to go through government channels for that like everyone else. It has nothing to do with the Red Card System. It is not a form of “slavery” and keeps everyone honest. There is no doubt that there are jobs out there that American citizens wouldn't do and these people are happy to pick up the slack. It's good for American businesses and it's good for immigration reform. To really understand it there is a FAQ page on their website that has some good info.

http://redcardsolution.com/index.php/faqs

 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

Thanks Debra I will read the FAQS.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

Good Sydne, and I would like to know what you think if you get a chance. I personally think it sounds good. The problem is would Obama buy it?

 

Patricia Strand

9 Years Ago

Debra, I read your link, and the Red Card solution does seem ideal. The only reservation I would have is that it is run by the private sector, which could mean most profit to the companies and little to the actual worker. That's how employment agencies work now. In theory, it does seem like a great plan, though. Just throwing that out there.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

Patricia,

The worker gets paid and the employer gets the worker. If the government ran it there would be even more disorganization. And the taxpayers would have to foot the bill. Read the FAQs, there's some good information. Oh, unless you already did.

 

Donna Proctor

9 Years Ago

The US has had "Guest Worker" programs for years. I mentioned in the old heat group that my cousins have been hiring Mexicans for years through these programs for their Texas wholesale native landscape nurseries around the state. The landscape business is their "retirement" income... by trade he is an architect who spent the better part of 30 years building Austin, Tx.

So, they needed workers for their large nurseries. They decided to go this route because each and every college educated young American who applied for jobs (their first real jobs) wanted a "management" position starting out at $40K/year or a signed contract stating that after the first year of employment, they would receive a promo to management. Really? What an unusual sense of entitlement.

They didn't want to work hard. They wanted to sit behind a desk, make decisions and take days off.

Much of this speaks directly to what John has said about us not wanting to do the work that illegal immigrants are willing to do. Our young college grad Americans didn't want to lower themselves to hard work and fair pay.

My cousin pays a fair wage - he also pays for all of their employees medical and health care, housing and meals while living in the states and working for him. His employees send most of their earnings back home to their families in Mexico. Sounds like a win-win.

When the employed Mexicans' contract expires (12 - 18 months) they are sent back home and my cousin requests another 25 people who are on the list - he gets to decide who to hire from the pool of applicants. If the workers he just let go want to come back into the USA they already know they must get back in line and wait their turn for employment. Over the years that my family has done this they've seen several people back under their employ for a second time.

Last interesting note - The program isn't cheap for employers - they pay big dollars to be a part of the program. But, and I am proud to say, my cousin is a true stand-up man who can afford to do business with the government and hire these men. He has never hired illegal aliens illegally like so many of the business owners he knows throughout Texas. He had friends who could afford to pay and in many cases, they were much more able than him, but they chose not to pay and still played - illegally... the hunger for profits can make the best of men do the wrong thing. The frustration was they (his business friends) DID did it over again and again …

They continue to do the "right" thing until something "more right" comes along.

@ Patricia - you bring up a good point. It's hard in these times to think that the private sector won't put profits first.



 

Donna Proctor

9 Years Ago

Aliceann said,

Immigration concepts always cause me some bewilderment as I really do not thing the planet on which we live has any boundaries except natural ones, nor animals and plant except those set by human habitation.

That's beautiful. I believe if more and more people around the world (and specifically in my country) felt that way, we would have less war. Some might call that a pollyannaish thought, Aliceann - but who cares what it's called as long as it speaks a truth. :)

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

Donna,

According to Helen Krieble, the waiting period for an employee to get a visa to hire can be as long as 120 days because of bureaucratic red tape which can slow down the process. With her system, the foreign worker can be processed in 48 hours. Employers are tempted to hire illegals to avoid time delays that can disrupt their business. She herself is a business owner in which she hires Mexicans and doesn't want to break the law. She came up with the system to help business owners like herself and undocumented immigrants become gainfully employed legally. I know this is a long video, but it does explain a lot about it.

 

John Crothers

9 Years Ago

" If an employer needs peach pickers and a worker wants to pick peaches for the hourly wage (which has to be at least the minimum wage) the data base connects the two. The worker is given a card after going through the screening, fbi backup checks, is fingerprinted and other things and within 48 hours can go to work. The card is tamper proof with a microchip in it."

If the farmers have to pay the workers minimum wage the cost of our food will go up substantially. I just saw a show where they said the workers were getting paid .01 cents per pound of tomatoes they picked.

Are the farmers going to pay one of these workers minimum wage or hire the illegal immigrant the .01 cents a pound?

Better yet, they pay the prison .01 cents a pound for their tomatoes and we keep our prices low and take work from illegal immigrants.

 

John Crothers

9 Years Ago

"Immigration concepts always cause me some bewilderment as I really do not thing the planet on which we live has any boundaries except natural ones, nor animals and plant except those set by human habitation."

Humans are social animals. Social animals in the wild have territories. Usually instead of imaginary lines on a map they just pee on the edge of their territory. But the invisible lines are there just the same. There is always another group wanting to move into what is deemed the best territory.

Social animals will go to war to protect their territory. Chimpanzees will kill and maim to protect what is theirs. Male lions will fight ferociously to defend their land and females.

We really aren't that different except our territories are more defined and we have much more lethal tools to protect what is ours.

We like to think we are different but we can't escape nature.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

John,

I'm sorry but I just don't think anyone wants to take that much advantage of a human race. I understand where you are coming from. "Are the farmers going to pay one of these workers minimum wage or hire the illegal immigrant the .01 cents a pound? If the illegal immigrants want to keep taking a chance and the employers want to keep taking a chance then they will have to pay the consequences if they get caught. But why would the illegal immigrants want to take a chance when they can get a work permit without the government hassle? With Helen's plan they can get their work pass and get paid a decent salary. They also pay taxes from that salary which helps compensate for the advantages of living in the United States and takes a big load off the taxpayers. Personally, I am willing to pay a little more for agricultural products and room service if it means our border are more secure.

As for not wanting the private sector to be the deciding factor in all of this, well that's the only way it will work. When government gets involved you can be sure there will be too many political clogs and combines to slow down the process to what it is today.

I admire people like Helen Krieble that try to come up with ideas that can help this country. Maybe it won't work, but she has the guts to try. This country was built on entrepreneurs and their ideas and inventions. If we ignore them it's because we are too lazy to find a solution for ourselves and depend on the legislators that we elect. When they fail to serve us we blame them. That is truly our nature.

 

Aliceann Carlton

9 Years Ago

Donna, I appreciate your comments. I see humans as territorial and savage, poor specimens of social functioning for mutual survival and unable to temper rage and lust for killing as well as power. However, humans also surpass their inherent weaknesses with a spirit of generosity and insight that is astounding.

Being territorial is natural and instinctual. Wreaking death for the pleasure or power of it is unique to us in our use of lethal force for ridiculous or hateful reasons. It would be a fearsome impact to remove the boundaries we set and the wars we wage over them. It would also be an evolutionary leap toward the vision and creative excellence we see in the arts.


 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

Beautifuly stated Aliceann and so very true.

It seems the Red Card has merit. As Donna mentioned there are similar programs out there, but apparently full of red tape, the Red Card cuts the tape and might be very successful.

 

John Crothers

9 Years Ago

"They also pay taxes from that salary which helps compensate for the advantages of living in the United States and takes a big load off the taxpayers. Personally, I am willing to pay a little more for agricultural products and room service if it means our border are more secure. "

They help the taxpayers when the pick tomatoes for .01 cents pound by keeping our food cost low.

I don't know ho many tomatoes someone can pick in an hour. It is probably a lot if they work really hard (which I think they do).

If they pick 500 pounds an hour at .01 cents a pound that is $5.00 an hour. Close to minimum wage, especially if they don't pay taxes. The farmers really can't pay someone a flat hourly rate can they? Where is the motivation to harvest as much food as possible if the make a flat wage?

You say you would be willing to pay more and I will ask you the same question I ask people that complain about jobs going overseas. How much more? The problem is we never hear how much more something would cost if it were made here or the immigrants were paid more. If a pound of tomatoes cost $2.50 today would you pay $3.00 a pound to change the way they are harvested? How about $4.00 a pound? Or $5.00 a pound? Everyone has point where the "right" thing is just too expensive. It is hard to say where that point is.

I do agree that something needs to be done. Rewarding people that come here illegally should NOT. That has to be the worst thing we can do.

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

John,

You make a very good case. If someone is paid by the hour rather than by the amount of peaches they pick there wouldn't be as many peaches picked. So how many pecks of pinkish peaches can a peach picker pick?

I also agree on your last statement. But we have to be realistic. We know America doesn't have the stomach to deport 11,000,000 Hispanics and the king has already declared his rule no matter what it costs his subjects.

Sydne, thanks for your feedback and response.

 

Donna Proctor

9 Years Ago

Hi Debra,

I don't want you to think I ignored you. :) I haven't been on the net for days... just read your post addressed to me re's Helen Krieble's Red Card Solution. Thank you. From just my brief reading about it, it does sound interesting and perhaps feasible.

I want to watch the video when I have more time but for the time being, I wanted to acknowledge your efforts :)

 

Debra Chmelina

9 Years Ago

No problem Donna, I've been busy too. Have a nice Thanksgiving.

 

Sydne Archambault

9 Years Ago

I hope you don't mind John, this is a great thread. I found an interesting article on Mexico from the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/mexico/11275460/Revealed-the-full-scale-of-Mexicos-disappearances.html

 

This discussion is closed.