What Royalty Dollar Amount For A Single Print?

It seems a little sketchy... Personally, I would ask myself the following question: What reasons does the potential client have for not wanting to utilize the print-on-demand services "Fine Art America" offers?

Tell him $5,000 or he can order it through faa.

I would charge a flat rate. It would be at least as high as what I would make if I sold a print here.

The client contacted an organization (who contacted me) about getting the print for his home. The client found the print through my personal website, not my site here on FAA. They told me that the client was interested in getting a custom size print at 48 " wide, and printing it on his own for reasons I am unaware. That's pretty much all I know. I don't want to charge an outrage price, but I don't want to let something go for nothing either.

unless he needs a wall size print and we can't make it - never send someone your image. there is no such thing as - i will erase it after. it sounds like he only wants to cheap out in paying- tell him $2000.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

we can print at 48" as long as the file can support it. tell him that's the only way you deal.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

and especially since you sell cars - which are trademarked, they could end up using it in an ad campaign, or shoving it on a shirt or something - and you will then get in trouble for the commercial use.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

gee Mike, you think my $5,000 was too high?
How about we agree and compromise at $3500?

Wow! i would have never guessed a rate that high! I am way too new at this.

Getting it through here is so much less of a headache

Thanks to all for your help! Gave me some things to think about!

i just tossed a large number out there. it's not the price of the image- it's what else he can do with it. its doubtful they only want a 48" print, they can get that here. i don't know which image it is, but the one i clicked on - could not possibly be printed that large. the only people i sell images too are companies that have a backing. a place that if they used it the wrong way, reviews could hurt their company. single people i don't bother with because they will either destroy the image by blowing it up too large. or will do who knows what. we tossed a large number in because why not? if they give you real money, then it might be worth it. but again, due to trademark issues, i wouldn't risk it. for all you know they want tshirts and and a number of other things.

once they have the image they can do what they want, it will be out of your control - and that includes uploading it to other sites to sell.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

i do think you should increase your prices here, and scan your work in so you can print large sizes.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

The one time someone contacted me about that, using it for a juke box, I quoted the same markup as is on FAA for the size they wanted to print and never heard back.

He wants on print.

Geesh, don't turn this into a federal case.

Get the exact size he wants, tell him you do not sell the file but you will be glad to have the image printed for him.

You should have a local or an online, wholesale printer that you work with and be able to fulfill orders of this nature yourself.

But if you can not, have it done via FAA and drop ship it to him.

And for heavens sake don't buy into the paranoia you are seeing in here. The guy just probably want to buy a print.

If he does not want to buy it from you, then just pass on the order. $3000, $5000.... that is just craziness.

Just for laughs: Don't forget the rules associative to selling images of automotives... Check out the following website for details: http://wiki.gettyimages.com/

The image is that of a VW Beetle, which I re-uploaded larger. I still have the drawing, so I re-shot it this afternoon in a larger format. I plan on letting him know that the work is now available in the size he is looking for here at FAA. That's just easier and no surprises for me in the future. I wouldn't mind even informing him that I can do it for him, and, like Floyd says, just have FAA do it and dropship it to him.

Though my drawings are very realistic, I believe I'm within rules to selling my drawings.

Sounds like a good plan.

You are selling art, not licensing it through a stock agency for commercial purposes, so you don't need the laughs from Gettyimages.

Better to sell a print via FAA than hand over a file that could be used for anything.

all i can tell you is, there was a guy who wanted to use my image for advertisement - for a flyer of some kind. he wanted it for free i said yes as long as my name is there, and i sent him a contract outlining what he can do with it. and it was rejected because they were planning on doing a lot more with that image like print t shirts and sell them - all under the guise of advertising. if they have the image, many will take advantage.

its your drawing - but it's VW's car and logo - that would go against VW and you could get a cease and desist letter if you used any of them commercially.

but to make a huge print - you would need a file at least 4000px across and clear up close or they won't print it at all.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

You can alway charge him a royalty rate, and then submit the file directly to his printer of choice. He would pay the printer directly, but you send it to the printer.
That way he gets to print it where he wants to, and you do not have to give him the file.

Mike,

As I understand the law:

If you have a chair designed by a famous architect and you paint it or draw it you, you can copyright your image.

If your image winds up in a museum and I like it, I can draw it all over again and I now can copyright my image.

This firmly applies to copyright. I am not nearly as clear that it applies to trademarks. Perhaps Paul would know. If
you read Paul's bio he has been around his part of the industry for a while.

BTW, If you take a photograph of the same said chair, you might have a much harder time claiming a copyright. Your
hand was less prominent in the production of the image. A court of law might say that a drawing alters things enough
to call it the artist's version, but a camera does not do so. Generally effects used with cameras and digital images can not
be copyrighted.

I do understand that going forward HDR photographers will challenge and possibly win in a court of law. HDR
is far more than a still life with a filter. More than using Photoshop or Light Room as well, so courts may form other rules eventually.

My work generally can be copyrighted as simply being derivative works of art(derivative is the legal term for it, I have had emails
from the copyright office). Seeing that none of the underlying pieces
are copyrighted as of today, I have my rights over my versions.

Dave

Paul,

This is a great image. Great job.

Mike as we can all see the highlights along the length of the car and the tail of the car
are not real. Those same highlights set off the sleek look, but a photo probably would
be extremely different. The tires have straight threads etc.......

Dave

Mr. Dilli-

The problem is that I do not know what to take the royalty percentage from....from what it costs to print it out? from what it costs to create it again by hand? from the total projected amount of sales for that particular print?

Mr. Bridburg-

Correct. Because my own hand recreated the images, they are under my copyright. Much different if I was to take a photograph of the vehicles and sell them. With the exception of some text on my Pontiac Le Mans rendering, absolutely nothing of mine is digitally altered or pasted. I even hand draw all of my text (again, with the exception of the Pontiac Le Mans rendering) with the help of a straight edge and a steady hand! Thanks for your comments, by the way.

I want to thank everyone for their input. I did not expect this amount of responses and this quick. Thanks to all again.

Hi Paul,

I think this "royalty" business is confusing the issue. Assuming he is being genuine what he wants a print for his wall, that's all and royalty doesn't come into it. Just have a think about how much you want to charge for it - forget percentages, how much do you want to go into your bank account?

There is a small alarm bell ringing about him printing it himself and a bigger one about him sending you a contract. I'm happy sending out digital files (once the client has paid), but the client gets them on the basis of my contract with onerous penalties for misuse, they never get to use their own.

By far the easiest thing to do is to get him to buy the print through FAA, with you having added on your markup, trying to do anything else is probably going to get a bit messy for you. If you do try working with his printer, or arranging something yourself, work out all the costs involved, add on your markup and get paid first.

Mick

First thing I would want to know is, who the company is, is this guy on LinkedIn?
Is there a spec? size, the method of printing, office or home etc
If there is a contract, I would want to see a draft.
A Royalty Rate? for a one off print?? I don't understand.
As for selling an image to client so they can make their own print, theres nothing wrong with that, there are other methods of print that are not on sale here.

send him here. That IS the point of this site after all

A big part of the problem is this:
Would you lend your car keys to a stranger at the door who claims to be having an emergency?

That is, if you license the digital image for a single print, how do you know that's exactly how it will be used?

Here would be my alternative suggestion:

There are some mural printing websites that should be able to do a fine job. For a really large print, there is no reason to restrict output to 10ppi, depending on the intended use.
Anybody who expects to inspect such a print with a 10x loupe will be sure to see many high quality large squarish pixels, though!
Viewing distance is the relevant factor here.
Obviously, this is not the kind of print that FAA specializes in making.

Likewise, local printing of such large prints can make sense. Look for these things at a mural printing site:
1. The ability to print a "test print" for a small fee
2. Some mural print materials are like vinyl stick-on, and can be removable. Any such print needs an extremely flat surface to be mounted on, with minimal defects.
If this is a mural, you could look at the site http://www.muralsyourway.com/ (I haven't tried them, it's just the one I bookmarked when I looked for a reasonable site for this purpose.)

The way I would do it is this:
1. Send your customer a cropped "test strip" of a small portion of the digital image, so he can order a test strip for color accuracy, material, and print quality.
2. Have your customer choose the appropriate print material, and order and pay for the test print.
3. If he is satisfied, have him paypal you the full amount you agree upon. It should be about double your commission on the largest print size at FAA, as an order of magnitude. (Triple?) More or less as you choose. Plus the cost of shipping and printing at the website. Do NOT order the print until the money clears your bank.
4. You should order the mural yourself, and have it shipped directly to your customer.
0. Be sure the customer understands this whole procedure up front, that he has no recourse after the sale with you, except that you will make a limited attempt to recover his printing cost if the website provides an inadequate print. In other words, your commission is non-refundable, and the printing fee is only refundable if he can negotiate a return with the printing company.

Let me know if this works for you. I have a large number of panoramic landscape photographs that I would love to sell as murals, but have never had any such inquiries.

the reason for the "paranoia" is because some people do the wrong thing if they think they can get away with it.

This is the reason you can't ask questions on FAA. Marlene and Mike make a joke about a buyer inquiry by suggesting a ridiculous amount. The customer apparantly does not want a POD print so that is not an answer to the question. That is no reason to blow off the customer with a high price. POD or nothing? As pointed out there are other print methods. There are other mediums also. Not everyone is looking for an off the shelf giclee.

There is a difference between a custom print and a POD print. With POD you get what they want to sell you not what you want to buy. Sure they can say museum quality because museums don't offer great prints. You don't get a custom print here and there are plenty of people who want or need a custom print. There is nothing wrong with that or shady about it.

Yes you could get the specs and order what they want and send it to them so you can maintain the coveted "control" "Control" can cost you a lot of lost sales. But there is little to fear from licensing. I make far more licensing than selling POD prints. Giclee prints are a small fraction of the market for images. I have never suffered a loss but I have a steady income from offering a license to anyone that wants one.

Getty rules? You are not a stock site and you are not giving a warranty of suitability for commercial use. As long as you state that you are not responsible for how the licensee uses the image, you are off the hook on that. (I am not a lawyer. Just something to think about). Now if they were using this for a lighted sign in a car showroom they would need a license from the car manufacturer and you may not be in a position to offer that. So that is why you would ask about the final use and stipulate that the print is for art only. LikeI do in my bio.

Yes there are scammers ou there but you don't have to treat every customer like they are a scammer. You ask some questions and find out there needs and then try and fulfill them. You use that information to determine how to proceed and how much to charge.

@dave - we aren't talking about the shape of a car - that will only apply to another car. it's using the trademark and logo for your own selling point. it makes it look like the companies support the artist when they may not.

if your image ends up in a museums is DOES NOT become public domain. in a 100 years maybe. if you take your images from a photo - you are going against another persons copyright and they have the grounds to sue. and people have and won. a museum doesn't change the status of a copyright. but this is a trademark issue which is done differently. if a company loses control of the trademark they may lose it. so they have to fight every case.

a chair doesn't count however, because its not art - it's a useful thing. so i can take a picture of it and sell that without issues. and hdr has nothing to do with anything. it's just another form of photography.


one question i have is though - where did the source images come from? because then we are dealing with copyright issues as well - no matter how good the image is, if the source image was from a magazine or someone else's photo you can get in trouble twice. and while you hold the current copyright to the current image - if you don't have permission from the company that you used their logos (and some companies are very anal about this), and if you took it from another source, that's another issues as well.

for many people the amount would be the amount you would charge here. the only difference would be the shipping. but once you lose the image to another person you don't know what they will do with it. and the thought they already had the line "i will destroy the image after" is suspicious. and they are all ready with contracts and such. seems odd for a one time deal. sounds more like a decorator and in that case they may use it more than once - you will never know. and that's why the high amount.

in any case you should increase your price here anyway.

as for making a large image - that can be done at home or sent to a nearby printer and they can do it.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

so bradford after that long speech and putting some of us down, do you have any suggestions for him?

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"Yes there are scammers out there but you don't have to treat every customer like they are a scammer."

I agree with this 100% but so many people do it on every inquiry.

"the reason for the "paranoia" is because some people do the wrong thing if they think they can get away with it."

Yes, "some" people, but not every singe inquiry. In fact very, very few are from scammers. But yet nearly every inquiry you get in here gets the same negative, cynical reactions. And just like in this case, there is really no indication what so ever the guy is trying to scam anyone.

I am not saying he isn't but with the information given there is no indication of that what so ever. It is just another public lynching.

I guess I just approach things differently then most others. I am always looking for ways to do business, to make a sale. I don't look at every inquiry as it is coming from Charles Ponzi.

To be honest with you I would much rather mistake a scammer for an honest man then to mistake an honest man as a scammer.

I think that message is coming through loud and clear. Don't listen to the paranoia! lol

what is the indication that they are planning on scamming you?

all i can say is once your work leaves your hands, you don't know where it will end up. --- also get paid first.

there have been many cases where a proof was sent, but they forgot to put proof in the center - and they didn't pay and used the small images. i side on caution, i only deal with companies and even then i provide my own contract outlining what they can do with it. and even then, they say no or they never write back. it makes me wonder what they really had plans on, when there is now a contract involved. i think if they were honest, they would accept it on my terms.

but a single person - they can order it here. be aware as well, we print at a 100dpi for the large things. they might want 300dpi - and that would have to be a really big file.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

its easy to deal with others when you using images that can be attained easily by other means - like selling them a mona lisa. but when your talking about your own work, that's a different story.

the car keys analogy is the most accurate.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Here's the thing. We are in the business. We all have at least rudimentary understanding of what is normal or ethical or basically the right or the wrong thing to ask a fellow artist to do regarding their art and their files.

The average person, outside the trade, does not. They do not know what is right or wrong or what is ethical or unethical.

If you go to your wife's doctor and ask for here personal medical information he is going to tell you he can not give you that information because that is considered unethical for doctors to do that. Just because you didn't know that, that does no make you an ethical person for asking.

Just because some guy asks to buy or even just borrow your file, that does not make him a crook.

Hi Paul,
We do many licensing deals, some by contacts that find us on-line and deal with us directly and some through our two licensing companies that represent our work. We just had a contract a couple of months ago for a large hotel company to use one of our files to have a large mural printed for their lobby. We charged $500 for a single time use of the file, loaded it into Dropbox, the client picked it up, and voila, they will be printing a single large image for the mural with our file. Our emails served as the contract and we stipulated EXACTLY what they were allowed and not allowed to do with the file. In other words, they could print ONE large image for their mural but not use the file for any type of advertising in any way, place the file image on the web anywhere, or use it for any other print. They agreed and we did send the Dropbox link of the file directly to their mural print company. We had another licensing deal two years ago with a NYC based company who wanted to use two files to print large murals on the sides of their building in NY. We charged $1000 for the two and we ended up sending them a CD with the files since they were so large. Typically we give these companies our link to our PayPal account and after the invoice we send to them is paid, we give them the file. There are a few cases where we have sent the file first and they paid afterwards such as a couple of publishing companies, to be used for book covers. These were very reputable companies and we knew would not risk being sued for copyright infringement by misusing or not paying for the file.
In your case Paul, if we were approached for the exact same thing, since the image they want to print is 48", we would offer to print it ourselves (we have a 9000 series Epson) and ship it (We would charge $675 if canvas wrapped, around $400 if printed on quality paper of which we offer Luster, Mat, or Metallic) or offer them to purchase through FAA here on other choices of paper or materials. We have not given a file to a single client with no well-known company to back them, simply because you do lose control of your image file.
We hope this helps you to make a good and informed decision. You have to be comfortable with that decision and also happy with the price you end of receiving.
Have a great day! Celebrate life, Debra and Dave

If someone asked me to send them a digital file of an image, I would politely point them here. If they said they didn't want to do a POD, I would be suspicious, but polite. Once you send the digital file out, it's gone. The e-mailer may be the most honest person in the world or he may hope to make a hundred copies of it and do whatever he wants. Maybe an assisstant wrongly uses the image. It's basically out of your control when you hit attach and send. I would rather lose a possible sale here rather than lose out big time down the road because they misused the digital file.

The way I look at it is when I post my images here, I haven't made any money. So if someone comes along and says they want to pay me but it sounds fishy, they don't actually have one up on me because I still haven't made (or lost) any money on the image.

to send large files - use wetransfer.com - up to 2gb for the free account.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Now that I have read Debra and Dave's reply, it occurs to me how little I know about the OP's e-mail. I have dealt with folks from various legit companies whose e-mail has a signature (and often a domain that is either well known or can be searched) So it would be a far different reaction if I got a Yahoo or Google e-mail as opposed to a production company. A few of my images will soon be in a reality TV show because of an e-mail. Like D&D, the e-mails were used as a contract. Another company asked to use a few of my local to the area shots in a restaurant. We hammered out a deal, I sent the pictures, they paid via Pay Pal (or maybe the other way around, I can't remember). A few months later, the same company came asking for me for another location.

In the final analysis, each of us needs to decide on our own how to proceed. I will say that we should do Google everse searches on images we send off tis way.

Oh Mike, you are doing it again! ahahhahaha....

I can't tell you how funny I find it that I am in your head to that degree...

You always go to the character assassination when you made yourself look bad and some one calls you on it.

Mike, I have been selling my own work for longer then you have been alive. You insinuating other then that is just flat lying....

But treating a person with common courtesy until they give you reason not to is a matter of YOUR lack of character no matter what you are selling. It has nothing to do with selling art. It has to do with common decency towards your fellow man.

one person wanted to buy stamps from me. they asked for the digital file because they wanted to make a cake. then suggested they also want to make plates, napkins an a long list of other things, and of course the stamps from me. but once they have the file they don't need me any more and in the end, she bought nothing at all.

they want a print we can print here, that's how i would do it. most of the time people want a wall print of my image. and i know how bad that would look, so for me that's a no.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

i'm not doing it again, i have to go with the common denominator.

if my only job is to sell the art, then i have to watch where the file goes. especially in this day and age where anyone can upload and sell. someone i know goes to an exercise class, a friend in that class said - oh you sell? if you want i can give you a picture you can sell. and she said really? what is this picture? the picture was a picture she bought and hung on her wall, and she didn't know you can't just photograph it and sell it again. she didn't buy that right. so here we are now, the guy has your image they will "erase" it, and now what?


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Its easy to say "no, sorry that's not the way I do business" and show them how easy it is to purchase the image like anyone else. Maybe even send them discount code.

Why is everyone so paranoid about scammers? Because scammers see artists as an easy mark. When you provide an easy way to purchase art and someone comes up with some complicated alternative, its going to send up flags.

If shipping is the big issue and this custom request is worth your time and hassle than its easy enough to find a local printer near the buyer. Figure out the price. Agree on the price. collect the money. Send the file to the printer and have the buyer pick up the finished work.

Then be prepared for a nightmare if they want to return it.

Go read what my advice was Mike. I never told him to send them the file.

I basically said the same thing that D&D said. Offer to print it for them or pass.

You're the one that came out of left field with the $5000 price, basically jumping to the conclusion that the guy was running some sort of scam.

"i'm not doing it again, i have to go with the common denominator"

And, yes, you are doing it again. There is no common denominator here. What I sell is none of your business and had nothing to do with the subject. You only bring that up when you are trying to discredit what I say. That is character assignation.

I am one of nearly 9000 gallery owners here, only a few of us sell our own work as well as the work of other artist. It is legal, it is huge part of FAA's business and your constant attack on the 'stock" sites and gallery owners as part of the problem here are way out of line.

I personally don't care what you or anyone else thinks of what I sell. But I do enjoy the fact that it has become a big part of your paranoid state of mind! That is funny! lol

Again, thanks for all your input!

I now understand that the person who contacted me was an art consultant out of New York. They discovered the image they are seeking from my business website, not FAA. My first route I will take will be to direct them here. I also need to understand there reasons for wanting to print it themselves, as maybe then we can agree on something that works for both of us.

I'm aware of what can happen when you send out an image. I have lost non-watermarked images to some strange places early in my business.

The royalty thing threw me when she said it. I never heard of a royalty for a single print. I would describe it as more of a "mark-up".....and that probably would have eliminated my confusion. However, the comments here have made me aware of things that perhaps I was going to overlook.

"Why is everyone so paranoid about scammers? Because scammers see artists as an easy mark"

I have no problem with that statement. I have a problem with artist thinking they are the only ones that are targeted as easy marks.

Name on industry where being ripped off or victimized by scammers, is not a problem, some more and some less then artist.

It becomes a matter of paranoia when an artist or anyone one else thinks they are the only ones being victimized and they start treading everyone else as the perpetrator.

It just seems that every inquiry of this nature that is posed here attracts people that run in and start building a scaffold and tying a knot in a rope.

in any case, as long as you an print the size they want, send them here. they may not even know about this place or that you sell them in this way. and they are simply used to asking for the image directly.

you may want to ask what the final use will be. like if printed as an ad for a store, that may backfire on you.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com