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Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

The Reality Of "making A Living" Via Internet Sales Of Art And Photography

I am Thrilled with the many people (Artists and Photographers) whom I have met through FAA. My interactions with them are satisfying, respectful and nourishing.

Question: Sales For You via internet (to include FAA)....Is It essential to sell a vast volume of art/photography pieces to earn substantial income?

Often, the question of earning money through the sales of Artwork becomes essential. There are many thoughts, strategies, techniques. It appears that, in order to make a solid living as an Artist/Photographer with Internet Art/Photo Sales (including FAA), the key is a vast amount of sales per year. With that as a premise (and the model I have outlined below)....The Question for this Discussion is: "Is that true for you?"

Model for this discussion: To earn $75,000.00/year (gross before taxes) the Artist/Photographer would have to sell 750 Art/Photography pieces @ an average price of $100.00. For this model, that is 15 sales per week or, two Sales per day (50 weeks/year). Please, if possible, share your thoughts about this.

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Thomas Zimmerman

9 Years Ago

Completely doable.

If you work at a corporate career, and dedicate yourself all day every day, and have talent, you can make 75-100,000 a year easily within 10-15-20 years. I'm in year 4.....slow steady climb.

 

Volume is essential -- unless you've found a way to coax buyers into paying four figures for each print sold. Must of us have not managed to make that happen.

With about half my sales online and half in the real world, I still need 'side jobs' to make ends meet. My art income might be higher if my work were more mainstream -- but, I have no plans to go down that road.

 

Roy Erickson

9 Years Ago

IF you have a good body of work - art people, decorators, will purchase - and now you put your time - about 75% of it into marketing - you might could realize that kind of figure - but I have my doubts. I think you might make a third of that - and since you are simply working the internet for sales - you could move here - this place where I live in Florida where the average annual income for a person is something less than $30 grand a year and so the cost of living is considerably less than, say, NYC. For example - I live in a 2,100 sq foot home, my mortgage and all utilities, including cable and internet are less than $1,200 a month. That's less groceries. I'm just not willing to put that much effort into marketing - and I'm not willing - at my age to learn all the tricks of internet marketing - it's boring and I'm a slow learner and since I'm not dependent on making a living selling art - I don't. I do what I do because I want to - yes, I grouse about slow or no sales from time to time - but it's not FAA's fault. rd's Fine Art Digital Abstracts

 

JC Findley

9 Years Ago

FWIW my average sale is 70ish dollars. If you take out the 12 dollar cards it pops up to 100.

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

Hello Everyone,

Thank you for your "Discussion" thoughts.

The focus of my discussion is, in a sense, to do research about the Real Possibilities of earning a solid income via internet sales of Art/Photography. This is all new to me. At this point of my life, I am blessed with not having to make a living with a career. At the same time I am assessing the realities, for me, of time/art/business via FAA and other internet channels. The market has dramatically changed since I did my professional work in the 70s, 80s, 90s. And, with that, I have discovered, through several interactions with photographers/artists, that the realities of making a good living in the current internet market (including FAA) are clearly dependent upon Very High Volume sales of art/photography pieces. That is the KEY to this business: Volume and How To Achieve Volume Sales. That "truth" is what I have been asking via my discussions.

I very much appreciate your thoughts. I wish all of you great success with your own career and personal satisfaction. For me, despite the struggles in a very competitive New York market, I found a great balance of personal/professional satisfaction in the Art/Photography/Career. I encourage anyone to seek that wonderful balance. I encourage you to continue to share your thoughts here. My best to all of you, Ross Lewis

 

Martin Capek

9 Years Ago

I am making living from microstock sites, not from FAA or any other POD (fatal failure from my side). Well it is not much, but I am from a cheap country so I can live with that.. But if I compare it with my former clasmates from college, it is a good way. Most of them is not making much more, they work in a boring job for a whole day.. I do what a like and I have a plenty of time.

 

Tracey Furnival

9 Years Ago

I thought about your example and I realized it's not just the 75,000 per year from a normal job. Employer benefits (insurance: health, dental, vision, life, a/d/d; 401k, sick pay, paid vacation, etc.) are valued at around 40% of salary so you would need over 100,000 in sales to be able to pay for your own benefits. And all of your expenses for cameras, software, gasoline, food, etc. are paid by you.

It makes more sense to have a normal job and make money in art on the side.

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

Steps:

1. Sell off all the expensive trappings of life - house, cars, friends who want to go out to eat, cable, cell phone, insurance, kids, etc.
2. Move to country with a low cost of living (your competition lives there too) or live out of your car like Adam.
3. Work non-stop shooting, processing and promoting your work.
4. Marry someone with a great career and don't let them stop working.
5. Don't tell anyone about your success because they will all want in.

If this fails you can always open a Bed and Breakfast or Restaurant.

But seriously, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

Martin Capek

9 Years Ago

You are welcome to move to my country :D

 

Paul Cowan

9 Years Ago

I think the first thing is to work out what avenues are open to your sort of work that really do generate serious income. Then you have to be willing to put the work in - and that is likely to meant 15 hours a day, seven days a week if you are going to get among the best. If you don't get among the best in the online sales world then you are probably not going to get anywhere near the earnings you want.
Also, things change. 10 years ago you could make decent money from microstock with limited skills and quality, today you're hard-pushed to make anything with outstanding skills and quality. I know, I've been there. At my peak I made about $2,000 a month (without putting in much effort, if I had really worked flat out I could have multiplied that five-times over), today I'm down about 30% on that with three or four times as many images available for sale.
If you want to make a living from this sort of stuff you have to identify a realistic marketing point and go for it hell-for-leather. I guess each site has a handful of stars who do that and make it work for them. But you may also need to be realistic about your life style, and scale back your expectations. I reckon I'll be okay with zero debts, a house, a handy cash reserve and about $2,000 a month from all sources to live on for the rest of my life (two or three decades, if I'm lucky), maybe you want a mortgage, exotic holidays and a heady night-life. If so, you aren't likely to get it from online sales.

 

Paul Cowan

9 Years Ago

Oh, the other thing is to be Peter Lik. Don't mess about with cheap sales. Sell a few things for huge sums. It can still be done, and the internet certainly helps with the promotion.

 

Vivienne Gucwa

9 Years Ago

I am quite successful and am a full-time photographer. I have a huge online audience though of around 2.5 million and a book that was just published worldwide so that ramps up interest.

However, I spent a long time building up my collection of images for sale here on FAA (since 2011) and elsewhere. It was a lot of nail-biting moments, believe me.

I would say that 85% of being a successful artist these days is marketing. People hate to hear that. But it is true.

 

Paul Cowan

9 Years Ago

Vivienne, I would agree that major success comes from marketing. The thing about photo agencies is that they do the marketing for you, but they don't market you, they market the collection, after that you are at the mercy of the internal search engine. People who promote themselves to buyers will probably do better than those who rely on agencies, other things being equal.

 

Martin Capek

9 Years Ago

Paul, do you think that promoting yourselves can help you to sell on stock agencies? I have 6k followers on twitter, and still growing, So I am thinking to start promoting my microstock sites instead of PODs there.

 

Daniel Hebard

9 Years Ago

Based on this thread many feel big ticket marketing is the most lucrative approach. Probably true, but there are other avenues that FAA probably hauls in the lions share of their revenue. Cards, sell phone holders, and smaller pictures appear to be popular. It is hard to determine this because unlike pictures smaller ticket product are not as well promoted. I do suspect smart card cases could become more prolific especially in the 4th quarter of the year known in RETAIL as the Golden Quarter. I came into the discussion group today to pursue this angle, because we are well into the 4th quarter.
With the more pronounced use of Facebook and other social media I have begun Boosting posts on my Fan page. Cards are easy to promote. Smart card covers are harder. As smaller pictures, cards and covers into the same nitch market disposable income gift purchase what is the best way to optimize sales. Should they be marketed separately from big ticket items?
Should they be promoted and marketed in a Gallery where larger pieces of art are sold. I know in my market Gallery owners barely tolerate portfolio books. Cards and covers are not worth their time or effort.
What are other viable market scenarios?

 

Paul Cowan

9 Years Ago

Martin - the point of stock agencies is that they do the promoting for you. I think that if you try to promote yourself by highlighting your work on agencies, you will end up highlighting the agency collections not your own work.

 

JC Findley

9 Years Ago

The first question really comes down to what you consider making a living
.

Paul indicated that 24k per would suit him. My guess is the OP is wanting more like 75 for his needs.

I made a living off this site for a while. Living is relative though. I had a spouse that worked and covered health insurance. I had a car but when it died I took the bus and subways instead of getting a new one. I didn't go out. I had NO disposable income. Now, I could have lived a little better in the same situation in a cheaper state but it was tough in NYC.

I went back to what I am trained for and got a day job and moved to FL.

I will say this, the art income seems like a LOT more now that it is an additional income and doesn't have to be used for pesky things like food and rent and such.

Can it be done? Yupp. Is it easy? Not a chance.

 

Brandon Luke

9 Years Ago

lots of good reading on here. looking forward to following this thread

 

Loree Johnson

9 Years Ago

As several people have already mentioned, different people have different defintions of "living." For me, I downsized my life to the extreme. I have no debts, hardly any bills, and I live full-time in a 29ft. motorhome. Still, it's been a slow process building up my earnings and clientele. I don't make enough at this to live on--yet. Luckily, my years of slaving away in an office earned me a small retirement. My earnings from photography have been steadily increasing over the three years I've been doing this. I'm not living a life of luxury, but I'm having the time of my life!

 

Adam Jewell

9 Years Ago

I think it is next to impossible to make $75 - $100k online alone. I suspect there are a few here who do it some with paintings and others with the digital maps and skylines.

I think you need a book that actually sells, a gallery or at least a physical presence in stores or a lot of shows or you had to start on FAA in 2010 or earlier if it mostly here that the income is going to come from.

Even with 5,000+ images I'm lucky if I've made $1.00 per image. I'm almost always on the road and instead of marketing I shoot and keep an eye out for things that have few if any images up here and that is probably up to half my sales.

Its possible to generate some sales that way but to really make anything on here people have to come here not because they want a photo of Maroon Bells at sunrise. They have to come here because they want a photo print that Adam Jewell took at Maroon Bells at sunrise.

 

Louise Reeves

9 Years Ago

I have resigned myself that since losing my job at the studio, I will never make a living at what I do. Will I stop? Not yet.

 

GJ Glorijean

9 Years Ago

Fellow FAAers... This is a wonderful thread! Thanks for the biz calculation & logic... Your figure$ blow me away, even if a tithe! For me, I used to work the rat race 5th Ave NYC workaholic life... Seems now all I do is play & no pay! I am so IMPRESSED with the potential and then activity on this site. I consider myself a Helpmate wife, creative and trying to live simply. Though I have not found a place until FAA that generates interest, intrigue, income & inspiration all in one place! I am hoping this is bullseye with a green center for me! My current Fruit of life focus is JOY. CLICK SUPPORT SHARE. Looking forward to this FAA-- Fantastic Artist Adventure! GJ

 

Toby McGuire

9 Years Ago

Anything can happen but for the vast majority of people this will probably never become anything more than a hobby. Something fun that can possibly earn a few extra bucks on the side. That's no reason not to try though! It's good to keep expectations in check or it can be easy to get burned out, disappointed or frustrated.

 

Rachel Hersh

9 Years Ago

Is It essential to sell a vast volume of art/photography pieces to earn substantial income? From a business sense, in realizing income from the sell of art and photography volume is only one side of the coin . Being your question, Mr. Lewis, directly involves earnings from the sale of art and photography, you may want to start with a premise answering the following: What are consumers willing to pay for art and photography?
For sake of the argument, lets assume we are talking art and photography prints. If a willing consumer is only willing to pay $10.0 for an art print or photography print, it is reasonable to suggest realizing net income of $75K would require an artist to sell 7,500.0 print units. Therefore, it would be inconceivable to suggest an artist would be able to realize their goal of $75K net income charge $15.0 for an art print or photography print. And, as such, an artist may want to make the necessary adjustments to their asking price to accommodate consumers. However, supply also plays a part in determining pricing of art print and photography print products and, as such, a photograph in high demand and short supply will most certainly demand higher prices than the average consumer is willing to pay. For instance, a new style of art or photography catching on with consumers may demand higher prices; as the new style is not common among practicing artists and it is a must have amongst consumers. Thus, it is the nature or supply and demand and really a question of economics requiring research and analysis of the arts market.

Good Luck and God Bless,

Rachel H.


***Reflection Questions you may want to ask yourself: (1) What art prints and photography prints the consumer demand, (2) What prices are consumers willing to pay for the art prints and photography prints available, and (3) What is the current supply of art prints and photography prints demanded.

 

Marlene Burns

9 Years Ago

Ross, I sell my paintings exclusively online...in my price range, volume isn't an issue. I think most painters would agree....it's a helluva lot easier to sell a painting than it is to sell enough prints to get the same payout....

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

To all Artists/Photographers who have generously contributed to this conversation: "I admire and respect all of your opinions. And I appreciate the time and careful thoughts you have put into crafting your answers.Everything said here in these pages, in my opinion, is valid.

I have generated this conversation because I have recognized as a former Artist/Businessman that the Fine Art market is very different from the exciting, competitive commercial photography market I traveled in for many years. To earn a good living in the New York photography market for photographers in the 70s, 80s and early 90s was, in a sense, very basic and quite simple. For the most part, it was about the quality of your work in concert with your marketing skills and persistence. Then it was a result of your ability to deliver and bring back many excellent images...often under pressure. The business/art dynamic was always in play.

Here, in this FAA and internet environment, I find that there are many more factors for success as expressed by so many of you. I discern that there is no set formula nor "The Way!" What I think is vital, here, in this conversation, is that we are all offering important thoughts in the World of Business. These thoughts I believe are critical to the so-called 'Survival' of most artists who must deal with their love for their art as a total life experience and their desire for their art to support themselves. I think, from my experience, that is a basic always-existing question (very much like so many of the great artists...musicians, dancers, actors, etc.).

With that, please keep sharing, if possible. It is my absolute pleasure to know all of you.

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

@martin -- you said "I have 6k followers on twitter, and still growing, So I am thinking to start promoting my microstock sites instead of PODs there."

Are they professional image buyers??? Stock and POD are two completely different sales channels. A person buying wall art is not the same as a designer in an ad agency buying commercial images.

The reason stock sites take 50 - 80 percent commissions is because they have the buyers lined up.

 

Harold Shull

9 Years Ago

Hiya guys,

I think the question, simply put, is "Can you make a handsome living as a Fine Arts Painter?' I think the answer is no. Now I will pose another question. "Can you make a handsome living as an artist?" The answer is yes.

I am an example of the latter. I made a good living as an Illustrator, Graphic Designer, Art Director and Creative Director. I think that the easiest direction to success as an artist is to go the commercial route and then the Fine Arts route. The other way around is extremely tough if not impossible. I know there are some of you who will say, Not for me, that's prostituting my art." Really??!! I worked my whole life as an artist. I didn't have to substitute my income by working as a carpenter, plumber or electrician in order to support my art.

Believe me when I say that getting a graphic artist's position is a hell of a sight easier than locking yourself in a closet, painting dozens of paintings and then setting them up in an art show hoping that somebody will buy one. Plus you're doing all of this while somebody else is working a 9 to 5 job supporting you. That wasn't for me. I kept my hands in the art game my whole life by prostituting my art. :)

 

Dan Turner

9 Years Ago

" I think most painters would agree....it's a helluva lot easier to sell a painting than it is to sell enough prints to get the same payout...."

Marlene, you've knocked another one out of the ballpark!!

"Believe me when I say that getting a graphic artist's position is a hell of a sight easier than locking yourself in a closet, painting dozens of paintings and then setting them up in an art show hoping that somebody will buy one."

And far more profitable, too. Great post, Harold.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

 

Martin Capek

9 Years Ago

Edward,Paul : Thank you. You are right. I have to try and find more people like profesional buyers and designers, it may be worth it then.

As you are talking about calculation and cost of living. There is a little comparation with my country. What is the average income in the USA? Here it is about $15600 gross/year. (median $12000). Of course the prices and the overall cost living is much lower (except electonics and some fashion), but the living standard is not bad.

 

Nicole Whittaker

9 Years Ago

I'm not successful, not at all... so, I would say no, it's not possible.

 

Mary Ellen Anderson

9 Years Ago

As a painter and not a photographer, than definitely relying on volume isn't part of my game plan. I just returned to professional art about 2 years ago and because of personal losses really haven't done much in promoting myself. In general than I've never done art or anything just for the money; I had many choices and was successful even just in art. But as luck would have it than my art is much more mainstream than it was considered in the 80's. And I'd made my dad a promise, so here I am.

I was completely new to prints let alone online sales but obviously than sells of originals and commissions bring in much higher $ and art prices are inelastic. I concentrate on building a value in my name (whether it's art or other work). The original I'm hoping sold today is 7G, that takes a lot of print sales to equal.

Last year (and my first) I had a total of about $3G in print sales and it might be less this year as I'm not doing any holiday fairs and have done no promoting. But to me prints are like printing money; it blew me away the first time someone bought a $700 print and I realized I didn't have to paint something else to make the next sale. The trade off between selling prints and originals might be whether all your extra time is spent painting or marketing.

To me it is much easier to sell originals than it is to sell prints; just because I understand what it is more. A photograph of my art just isn't the same baby to me and hard to get my head around, and any salesman will tell you if you don't understand it you can't sell it.

So can't add a lot of info here as just too new and too interrupted of a period but depending on your living requirements think showing potential for a respectable income. But I also have Hal's philosophy on work. Don't think any artist is too good to be an illustrator; in fact recently agreed to illustrate a children book. Sure there is more risk, if you blow it than your not going to be able to hide it (burn it) but it is the road to transferring your value on your name and reputation instead just your body of completed works.

I would remind everyone that the only advantage you have over all the past masters (that are your competition - you remember like Michelangelo, Picasso, etc.) is that you're alive. That means you can get out there and create. You need to be using that advantage in promoting your career. Go find work to do instead of just waiting for 'your' people to discover you or you to find them. You create 'your' people, you don't find them.
-- mary ellen anderson



 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

"The Reality of Making a Living" with your Art and Photography is, I believe, an vital question to be considered. About 10 years ago I participated in a very powerful 5 month program called "The Wisdom Course" in New York/New Jersey. This was not an Art course...rather a course in humanity.

On the 5th Weekend, the course leader stood up in front of the room. All was silent. Until he proclaimed: "Art is The Vehicle To The Cosmos!" There was a lot of agitation in the room. Many people were restless and confused. Finally, a very well dressed woman stood up to speak. She was a successful businesswoman who was the President of her company.

Suddenly, tears flowed during her speaking. She told the group how she had always been sad and somewhat unforgiving to herself that she had given up her clarinet because her mother told her that she could not make money with music. All her life she compensated for giving up her love of music. Amazingly, following her speaking, one person after another spoke about similar life experiences with respect to their own Art. The statement "Art Is The Vehicle To The Cosmos" was a powerful inspiration which touched everyone's humanity.

Why I told this story: I believe that many of the shares in this discussion have a strong element of this common love for art in all of us. I also think that the question of "How Do I Live My Art?" as a viable source of income is coupled with many stated wishes in this discussion. I, too, had a struggle in the 70s when I had a great job at CBS, New York as an Associate Director. It was a painful choice for me to leave CBS and become independent to make a living at photography....But I can tell you that "I Never Looked Back." For me, I am now 71 years old and I support all of your loves and passions for Art and your seeking to realize these "Art/Business" questions for yourself. I deeply appreciate your contributions to this conversation and discussion.

 

Mary Ellen Anderson

9 Years Ago

Well said, Ross. Wish FAA had a like button for discussions. Good thread.
-- mary ellen anderson

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

By all means follow your passions but do so with eyes wide open. Making a living as an artist is the dream of many, yet few manage to pull it off. The idea of no boss, no set work hours, no one telling you what to do and being able to play all day long - who can resist the temptation?

Thankfully its a difficult path, otherwise there would be no one left to do society's heavy lifting in less fulfilling jobs.

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

For Martin:

The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2014 that U.S. real (inflation adjusted) median household income was $51,939 in 2013 versus $51,759 in 2012, statistically unchanged.

Somewhere I read that a full time working photographer average salary is around $47K. Not a field to pursue if you have better options.

 

Tamara Lee Madden

9 Years Ago

It's a reality for the few, not the many. I think it's possible if the following are met:
- Focus on work with mass appeal
- Consistent promotion using Social Media
- Utilization of several POD sites
- Knowledge of how to market based on your audience
- Study what those who are already successful are doing

I hope I can attain some level of success. :-)

I loved Ross' statement above. :-D

 

Joseph C Hinson

9 Years Ago

Ross;

I am glad you were able to make the choice of leaving your TV news job. I was not so lucky. Laid off twice now by different TV stations who realized they could give a camera to the reporter and have them shoot their own stuff and not have to pay a second guy to go on every story. Two years after my last lay off, I am still in a "hold me over job" until I can dream it up again. No TV news job for me next time.

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

To all my new Artist/Photographer Friends.

I think we're pressing the right buttons here. When I first began to take my portfolio out into New York in the late 70s there was a man named Golab (I think that was his name). Quite a bit older than I was. Very courteous. Very polite. I saw him a number of times during my 22 year career. Always the same...Very courteous. Very polite. Very engaging.

Never gave me a day of work! But I liked this man!!!

Early in my visits (he obviously knew that I was a novice of this professional NYC business when I first saw him), he told me, "Ross, You'll Never Die From Lack Of Money!"

There were thousands and thousands of things said to me in my career...but, funny....I remembered THIS ONE!!! I never Forgot It!

I think we're all hitting on the right buttons here. "Art Is The Vehicle To The Cosmos!" But, please keep in mind, that it seems to me you're all saying similar things....The Dream!!! The Dream!!! The Dream!!!

 

Kevin Annala

9 Years Ago

quote "Can you make a handsome living as a Fine Arts Painter?' I think the answer is no."

You would be wrong. There are more artists living full time and supporting themselves off of their work than you think. That is painting...not workshops, not graphic design etc. As a photographer I KNOW you can make a full time living from selling prints. There are plenty of examples, it's just people like to use big names as examples of how it can't work, when infact there are those that do not market to other photographers (why would you) who are not known in the photographic community. What people need to realize is that it takes YEARS of hard work to get there, just like MOST businesses. People seem to try it out half assed, never to commit full time, and give up after things have been hard for a while ignoring that the rules of business and getting your name out there applies just as much to photography and artists, maybe even more so. Anyone that thinks it can not be done, will never make it happen. People that KNOW it can be done and are willing to work their ass off relentlessly for years CAN make it happen as long as they focus on all of the other aspects of making it work.

With that said, had your comment been specific to only including selling through POD sites and online then I would believe you. The people that make it happen commit full time, and are out showing their work in person. I work 15-18 hour days and it can be demoralizing when some time passes with no sales. I can't even imagine trying to find 10x more clients for 10x lower prices... it's absolutely insane what some people here charge for their work.

 

Paul Cowan

9 Years Ago

Here are some more thoughts - if you are in art to make money then you inevitably have to tailor your work to meet what the market will pay for - doesn't matter if you are a painter or a photographer, a lot of painters turn out kitch landscapes by the hundred and sell them through tourist shops in Greece. As a photographer I turn out a lot of stuff like this:
Photography Prints
in the hope that some designers will need it and will pay for it. It's a formula that I am able to make work, up to a point (it's not going to make me rich), and there is a certain satisfaction in being able to cook, present, light and shoot to that standard - but it is certainly not something I would want to be remembered by posterity for.
If you are into art for art's sake, to create things you feel truly proud of, then you probably aren't going to make money and you will spend an awful lot more time working on your creation than I did. So for many people, assuming they can even find the market segment that works for them, it is going to be a choice between making art and making money. Which is more important to you?
The reference to scaling down your lifestyle that someone made is also very important. If all you have to pay for is food and energy, then your earnings requirements can be very modest indeed - but it may not be a lifestyle that suits many people.

 

Roz Abellera

9 Years Ago

Is it possible? Absolutely. But it will take years of work and some smarts to get to that point.

Anyone who thinks it will just happen overnight or that you can just post your work on a site and "set it and forget it" is in for a rude awakening.


--Roz Abellera

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

The reason artists are willing to share their advice and expertise through forums, workshops, books, creativelive etc is because they know that only 1% of the people buying/reading/watching will actually follow through on the advice and become successful. They aren't worried about competition.

Most selling online give up after a few months even though it takes about three years to build any business. If you don't have a passion for both the creative and business aspects you won't be successful.

 

Tamara Lee Madden

9 Years Ago

I think this is key:
"If you don't have a passion for both the creative and business aspects you won't be successful." - E.F.

 

Cara Bevan

9 Years Ago

*applauds everyone for a fantastic post and comments*

Making a living as an artist is no joke. I'm still young in the game (painting for 7 years) and just now discovering the true brutal meaning of marketing and making a living. It's been very much starving artist till now I'm embarassed to say. It gets tough, trying to find the right venues where your art or prints can sell. I've had friends throw in the towel and get a day job. Considered that myself but I'm determined to find the right paths to make art profitable. Even if that means I have to be an illustrator (recently illustrated my first kids' book, despite painting animal portraiture usually!) With the original discussion being about selling prints, what IS the best way to promote your prints? Marketing strategies are tough skills to learn, the oh so fun business side of art.

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

Wednesday Night-10:15PM, Eastern

From Ross Lewis: The multitude of honest, vulnerable thoughts here are fantastic. They get to the core of what it is to be an artist/photographer...especially if you consider your art as a possible way of making a living. I continue to appreciate all of your thoughts and opinions.

STORY: One of my friends, his name is Kurt, was a huge success in business. He was amazing! He had an upper floor office in the Wall Street area of New York. Kurt and I often had many things to talk about over coffee or lunch, etc. He was, at times, sort-of a subtle business coach for me. Kurt achieved the "Impossible in the face is what normally considered reality." He sold "premiums" to businesses and corporations. (A "premium" is the paper weight or coffee mug or pen which has your business name on it. Corporations would order these things in volume). Kurt was a millionaire who retired before he was 50. The astounding element of Kurt's success was that he sold the same stuff (premiums) as every one of his competitors. Yet, he charged Higher Prices!!! And....they still bought from Kurt...and he became a wealthy man.

Reason for me introducing you to Kurt in this Discussion: Kurt once told me (quote)...."The Last Thing A Man Will Ever Tell You (if he tells you at all), is the truth about his finances and money!"

With that, I wanted to open up a FAA Discussion which reaches deep into the heart of the Art/Money problems. No one is asking for your financial #s in this discussion. Yet, given Kurt's statement, it is likely that most, if not everyone in this conversation is acutely aware of the common financial difficulties we all face or have faced in the past. It is for that reason that I structured a model of earning $75,000/year as a working example. This wonderful comradeship or ours surely points to the always-present common bond which we all have (or have surely faced in our lives). If this discussion accomplishes nothing else, it has clearly opened the door for everyone to know that "You're Not Alone"!

As an Artist/Photographer who is dedicated to pronouncement that "Art Is The Vehicle To The Cosmos" I sincerely wish all of you great Success...even if it does not meet your financial goals.

Please keep sharing your thoughts....It's a Win/Win for everyone! Warm Regards to ALL...Ross Lewis

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

2,500 new artists join FAA today. 8,000 new images added today. And FAA is small compared to the numbers on a site like Deviant Art. That's a lot of competition. You had better bring your A game.

,,,,,,

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 28th 2012 - http://www.sramanamitra.com/2012/03/28/doing-5m-a-year-with-3-employees-fineartamerica-ceo-sean-broihier-part-7/

Sramana: You have created an ecosystem that supports and awful lot of people. How many artist are making over $1,000 a month?

Sean Broihier: I would say that there are 50 people who make over $1,000 a month. We send out thousands of payments of less than $1,000 a month to artists.

 

Lonnie Christopher

9 Years Ago

I don't have much to add, I think everyone really hit the points that I was going bring up so I will just add this. I recommend any of Seth Godin's books. He gives great advice when it come to being an entrepreneur, and that's really what artists are.

Take a look at his site: http://www.sethgodin.com

 

Nicky Jameson

9 Years Ago

Some very good points here.

I've recently started selling my art offline and have had much more success thus far than online. I continue to drive people to my website (to find out about me) and then to where they can purchase if they wish... if they are local they find me offline. I've been invited to hang my art in three local coffee shops - because my stuff is offline and I get to talk with people when they see it. But it's all about marketing, and networking. Finding people who connect with you on a level such that they are interested in your art enough to purchase it - or at least keep you in mind when they want to buy. That means going where the people who buy and collect art go.Which means showing up in person, getting out there. Many people I've spoken since deciding to focus more on offline don't even realise you can buy art online, and when they do realise they ask me "but who'd buy art online?" How do you interact with it?" I found that interesting - and of course I tell them they can but I can tell they prefer to see and feel. Clearly some people do buy online, but for some it's completely foreign. Also where you have PODs where there are thousands upon thousands of pieces of art, I believe the art becomes a commodity with the risk of price becoming the common denominator. Lastly, for serious money it has to be an art business and has to be run as a business.
The fact is, on most online sharing sites (like here, and social media sites) whether photography or painting most artists are wasting a lot of time showing their work to other artists whom, while they may admire it, are probably the least likely to purchase it at all let alone in enough volume to make a sustainable living.

 

Lonnie Christopher

9 Years Ago

@Nick that has been my experience as well. I only sell offline, and direct people to my site where they can order cheaper prints if they can't afford my limited editions. I think they feel more connected when they are going to your site to purchase, and I think it's great that FAA offers a solution so you can put you FAA prints on your site easily.

Nothing compares to just showing up and showing your art in person. If you want to get excited about your art. Show it in person! It's the complete opposite of putting it up online and no one pays any attention. You'll be pleasantly surprised by how any people notice it, and connect with it because they see it in person. You'll be hooked!

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

Thursday, 7:36 AM Eastern

Nicky Jameson and LC Bailey (above) spoke about personal interactions with respect to sales of their art.

A few months ago my wife and I visited a street fair in Jacksonville, Florida. Many artists and vendors. We spoke to a man who specialized in Pop Art. He was very forthcoming. He has a formidable business (based in Miami) which he has developed over a period of time. He travels, during the good-weather seasons, to similar Art Fairs/Street Fairs. He indicated, dollar-wise, that he earns a good living through the sales of his art. He confessed that some days, at the fairs, he would not earn much income. And other days (unpredictable) he would do very well. The point being (as voiced by Nicky and LC Bailey and others in this discussion) is that, in fact, there does seem to be an avenue for your Art/Photography Income.....i.e. a strong mix of personal interactions/sales/exhibitions etc. etc. coupled with the predictability of Limited on-line sales.

I have not made any definitive conclusions about all that has been shared here in this discussion. However, if there is a common link: Most artists/photographers are speaking about the "Low Odds" of selling and making a substantial living with On-Line sales. Question #1: Would You Agree With This?

Given the above statements I have just made (Personal Sales Vs. On-Line Sales)....Question #2: What would you conclude about these observations with respect to the success and/or lack-of-success with your own Art/Photography business?

Thank you,
Ross Lewis

 

Peter Hogg

9 Years Ago

These discussions are always interesting. After years as a commercial photographer I've really started to pursue the fine art road for my new work. I'm doubting that I could ever make a living off of selling my work on the internet for multiple reasons. A goal of $75,000 here on FAA or any other site online to me is almost impossible where I well exceeded that number when I was trudging my portfolio around to art directors and designers.I always look to see what is selling here on FAA as it does give me an idea of what buyers like and frankly they like almost everything. Many times I find images that are well done and are done in a style I like to work in so I will go to see what that person is selling it for. More often than not on a 40" print the artist is making much less than $100 on these prints. So to make $75,000 in a year they have to sell one hell of a lot of prints. I would love to see these artists raise there prices to a level in which they would make more profit as volume doubtfully will ever make you enough money to attain a quality living level which is why most here have other incomes to support there love of photography or painting. My wife is a painter and loves painting animals and has her own website for promoting her work. She doesn't really sell prints of her work but does all images on consignment where customers give her photos of their dogs and she produces oil paintings for them. Doing this she has made more money than I have selling online. So being in this for much less than a year I find it doubtful to rely on selling fine art here online to make a living but it can be a nice second income derived from ones love of doing art for sale.I'm sure there are a select few that do quite well but the real the money maker is FAA which has created a great site for us to attempt to sell our work. Bottom line, I would like to see so many of the talented artists here believe enough in themselves to put prices on their images that are more representative of their wonderful work.

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

To Peter Hogg and all people who have greatly contributed to this conversation.

I originate from a similar background in photography as Peter. I, too, in the so-called "Glory Days" of assignment photography, was hired for many multiple ventures. They were challenging, often difficult and demanding. You had to use your artistic instincts to produce powerful images in a commercial environment. For me, that often happened in remote or far-away areas from my home base on NY. The two worlds of art and business always ran parallel. I believe they still do in today's market....that is the purpose of the "Reality" of this conversation.

However, like Peter, given the "stats" which I have engineered with a model of $75,000.00, the consensus of most contributors to this conversation agree that it is difficult, if not impossible, to achieve that consistent monetary figure (or more) when the reality of selling a great volume of photographs/Art prints on a daily/weekly basis is, at best, nearly impossible in the internet environment of thousands of photographers/artists...multiplied by the number of images that are produced by each artist/photographer. Again..."Stats!"

I very much agree with Peter. Given the Low Odds of selling internet art/photos, I believe that the prices for these pieces must be considerably higher than most of the prices shown on the internet and FAA. I strongly believe that if the potential purchaser is "in love" with a photo or art piece which will be prominent in their lives (displayed on a wall), they will NOT bicker with themselves over another $100 or $200. If they want it "Cheap"...then, in a sense it is not Art at all to the buyer. Just another "Good Deal" in life. Also, given the low Odds and the immense about of work and time required for an artist/photographer to engineer an art piece on the internet, it is not worth it (in my estimation) to collect only "pennnies" per hour on a sale if it is priced at a low sale price.

I am consistently in support of the great artists/photographers here. Your self-expression and contribution to the world through Art is immense!
Sincerely,
Ross Lewis

 

Loree Johnson

9 Years Ago

I have to agree with the notion that most artists and especially photographers (on this site in particular, but on the internet in general) price their work much too low. There is a belief that people will not pay a higher price when there are so many images available. However, I consider my images (most of them anyway ;) ) to be one of a kind. As you said, Ross, if they are looking for something "similar" at a lower price, they must not be very enamored with it to begin with.

My thinking is that there are a limited number of people out there who love my work enough to actually buy it. Lowering my prices is not going to increase that number. It is much easier to make a higher amount per sale than it is to find more buyers. In other words, selling an image once for $200 is less difficult than selling it ten times for $20. At least that has been my experience so far.

 

Ted Raynor

9 Years Ago

.....

 

Dan Turner

9 Years Ago

The takeaway from the discussion so far: Your chances of making the sale are much higher -- virtually guaranteed, really -- if you are the only artist the buyer sees. The assignment isn't to put yourself in a lineup with thousands of other artists and see who can spam the loudest, but to pull your buyer off to the side where it's quiet and choices are limited.

If you take care of your buyers, they will take care of you. If you treat them like targets, they will treat you and your art like a commodity.



Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

 

Rick Al

9 Years Ago

I think the answer is: It is possible but it's getting harder.

 

Alexander Senin

9 Years Ago

To make art is a job, to sell art is an art. )

 

Heather Gessell

9 Years Ago

I hated working on art full time. I was able to do it, financially, with ease, but it made me cranky .... It showed in my artwork ... being " forced" to turn out and sell "X" to pay the mortgage and bills.... and I am a terrible manager of my own time ... I am lazy and unmotivated, procrastinate, and all in all, being self employed as an artist was not a good choice for me.

Full time job with guaranteed monthly pay, art in the spare time, that is the way that works for me! :D

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

From Ross Lewis...Thursday 4:05 PM Eastern.

Dan Turner (above) has highlighted a brilliant and powerful point! To me he speaks of the Humanity in it all! The "Stats" which I am pointing speaking about, reveal the important black and white truths which impact nearly every artist. They, in my view, have to be completely understood by the Artist/Photographer in order to navigate crucial Art/life decisions.

The bottom line, however, as I see it (and as Dan speaks), is the humanity of it all...not the "targets"....not the technics....not the mechanics...etc., etc. For me, I surely love the "doingness" "satisfaction" "challenges" for myself.

Yet, if it is only me, in isolation without the one-on-one deep satisfaction with serving and interacting with other people, there would be no point to it all.

I compliment Dan on his astute observations and shares to all of us.

Thank you, Ross Lewis

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

I want to thank Heather Gessell in this Discussion for her most honest contribution to everyone. I believe that Ms. Gessell spoke the absolute truth which is common to most people. And...she had the generosity to speak it by saying: "I am a terrible manager of my own time ... I am lazy and unmotivated, procrastinate."

One of the most powerful and curious things I discovered about myself many times over was closely related to what Heather speaks about. I am highlighting this in this Discussion because, although it may seem unrelated, I believe it clearly fits into the "Reality of Making A Living with Your Art."

Early on, after I left my job with CBS-TV (making pretty solid money it the "glamorous" world of broadcasting), I was now the "free man" on my own terms. However, I soon realized that there were two "KILLER self-propelled conversations" within me:
(1) "I don't feel like it!'
(2) "I'll do it tomorrow!."

Even more curious was that I was a very motivated guy! I consistently worked very hard to better myself as a photographer and to navigate the world of photography and assignments in NY. Every Day!!! But, strangely, after landing a great photography assignments and being sent out to remote, sometimes exotic locations, I found myself up against the two Killer conversations while on location....."I really didn't want to do it!"....You Know...Don't Want to Get Out of Bed That Day.

This phenomenon also was present with my own personal everyday work. Great Ideas the Night Before....but the insidious conversations in my mind when I woke up...."I don't feel like it!"

If there was anything I had to break through every day (including the same stuff which goes on in my head today at the age of 71)....it was those Killer Conversations. I am most proud of myself today for not buying into that stuff!

At the same time I truly understand the comfort levels of many, many people....and I respect Heather for sharing this.
I don't think I'm alone on this one!

I continue to Thank all of you for your very generous conversations about Reality!!

Sincerely,
Ross Lewis







 

Yes, it is possible to make a living from your art, but that requires being prolific and working hard at promotion. You can make the most beautiful art works and no one ever sees them, hence, no sales. There are many ways to promote your art. We do anywhere from 4 to 12 art fairs per year, for the past 3 years, and also a lot of Facebook promotions. We also have our own small gallery, run by our art guild here in Murphy, NC along with the art guild's big gallery where we also have our work. We show our work at a few galleries and do competitive art shows. But our most income has come from being Fine Art America members where we not only have had a very blessed life with sales growing each year, but also by having companies discover our work here and wanting to license our work for a plethora of projects from book covers to puzzles. We work on our art every day and also are willing to help others so the Lord has truly blessed us. Having your own business is not for sissies or for lazy people. It takes a true commitment and several years for your hard work to pay off. We both come from owning and running two previous businesses for almost 30 years (a wholesale tropical plant nursery and a big flower shop), so we are no strangers to hard work and commitment. In our early 50's, photography became our new business after selling the other two and sure has been exciting and very interesting and so satisfying for the past 4 years. We wish everyone good luck and God's blessings for success and joy in life!
Celebrate life, Debra and Dave

 

JC Findley

9 Years Ago

It is worth noting that the 50 number Sean gave is rather dated. I would say it is a LOT more than that now.

I can think of more than a few that actually come in the forum and the forum is a SMALL percentage of FAA artists at large.

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

7:54 AM Eastern

"I was delighted to see Debra and Dave Vanderlaan's comments (above). They contributed an inspiration and very positive addition to this Discussion".
Thank you Debra and Dave.

Sincerely,
Ross Lewis

 

Peter Hogg

9 Years Ago

I'm not sure but think this was about making your money from the internet sales which is why this discussion is on an FAA blog. I do believe you can increase your sales quite a bit if you were to get them into a gallery providing they are gallery worthy of course. Most of my images are better seen at sizes of 40" and above to get the fine detail I put into them so being seen on a computer monitor really doesn't do them justice as that is probably true of a lot of artist works here. This leads me to the another point brought up by someone else and that is I'm too lazy to get off my butt and get them into a gallery which I've had offers to do so. I fortunately don't need the money but have loved photography my whole life as it was and still is my career. If you were to get into a gallery, obviously many of the wonderful images I see on FAA would never sell for the cheap prices which they are selling for here online. First take your cost, then the gallery taking 50% and hopefully you want a profit. Some great prints selling here are $150 and under so imagine how many images a gallery would have to sell just to cover the rent and the rest of the overhead. Thus, the benefit of a wonderful site like FAA is all that overhead is cut out so a buyer can get great work at a great price. But back to the original question of making $75000 on internet sales, not likely at those prices. Promoting your WEBSITE that is created by FAA is your best bet for sales because it exposes your work only and I don't mean that to be selfish. It's just if someone is looking for an image as fine art or even for a commercial purpose there are too many pieces here poorly done and very amateurish. Sorry, but that's the truth and when buyers have to wade through those images to find the cream they are likely to log out and look elsewhere and never return to look again. This too can prevent them from seeing your work, preventing a sale which could lead you to that $75,000. Would love to see many of the wonderful artists here up their prices to values that they are worthy of!

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

From Ross Lewis: 11:55 AM (Eastern)

Through this discussion, Debra and Dave Vanderlaan have personally shared with me. Debra and Dave have a very successful Photography business in North Carolina. They were very generous with information and have given me permisson to post it (below). I think this will be of great benefit to all:

Thank you for your note Ross!
We don't know if there is really any 'secret' to our success or anyone's success in the art field or particularly on Fine Art America. It comes down to investing a lot of time, effort, and hard work. We have around 2000 fine art images uploaded here and we add to that number every single day, at least one or two. Our work has a variety of subjects which is helpful for sales. We always carry the camera gear, no matter where we find ourselves every day, and make a point of getting to the interesting scenes and searching out subjects that would lend themselves to a fine art print. We have also put a lot of time and effort into learning our tools, various softwares and techniques to produce interesting images. Our cameras and lens are top-notch so that we produce large quality files and can sell large pieces of art. We often see an order through FAA for our images in 4 and 5 foot sizes. We also price our work that gives us a fair price when they sell.
To get noticed here, we spent hours and hours networking on the site: contests, joining groups, getting features, running our Barns Big and Small group, writing comments, answering mail, and making friends. We have an active Facebook page for our Celebrate Life Gallery where we link images from FAA to there, several every day, with nice commentary. We pay for FB Likes and are now well past the 10,000 mark. We have definitely seen at least a few sales that we know came from there, where a follower will mention it after we post the sale on our FB page, or from a direct email or just from a piece we just shared there that day. We don't do any other type of social networking but are sure it is effective, considering how effective FB seems to be for us.
We designed a nice colorful rack card, 2 sided, with several images and our contact information on it, to hand out at our art fairs and at our gallery. We have seen sales afterwards here on FAA from the cities where we were for the fair and are sure the sale came from that. We are also very active in the art community here in our little town as members of several organizations. Our art guild produces Art Walk every First Friday of each month and we are the directors and promoters of that. Many folks stop by our gallery during Art Walk and again, there are always some sales generated from that. We enter contests at local and not-so-local galleries and on-line. One of our images which won the 7th annual Smithsonian Magazine contest in the Americana category has brought us much success. It has been used on a book cover for a major publisher, has been in a French women's magazine, and in on-line books and German affiliates. Because of our gallery here on FAA and on our FB page, we have been contacted by many licensing companies and are currently being represented by one in the US and one in Canada. Some of the generated licensing deals are big, one in the works now with Pier1. We also have individuals and small business groups ask to license images for brochures, webpages, murals, and self-published book covers. These deals we make ourselves and we have added the info on pricing to a few other threads here on FAA when fellow artists have questions on licensing pricing, etc.
Once you get the ball rolling on sales here, it picks up like a snowball. But you have to start that ball rolling yourself or you probably won't ever be able to call your sales here a 'living'. After 3 1/2 years of being members, we went from very sporadic sales to sales almost daily and have achieved many $4K months of sales here on FAA. Adding in our occasional gallery sales and our licensing quarterly checks & other licensing deals, and our sales at art fairs, well, it is a living for sure. Luckily we are in our 50's and didn't start from 'scratch' but had much life experience and business experience, as well as investment income from the sales of our property/businesses, so that we could devote the bulk of our time to our art and it's promotion.
We hope that helps clarify what we do for our art. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. We are always open to helping our fellow artists and paying it forward, since we have had lots of advice given to us when we were first starting out in this field.
Celebrate life, Debra and Dave
www.CelebrateLifeGallery.com
P.S. Feel free Ross to post this note in your discussion if you want to share it. Thanks!

 

Adam Mateo Fierro

9 Years Ago

A great topic with useful information. I especially appreciate Debra and Dave Vanderlaan's shared experience. The takeaway for me is simply this: success belongs to those who hustle.

 

Joseph C Hinson

9 Years Ago

Out of all of the great words of wisdom in this thread, this sticks with me more than most --

"My thinking is that there are a limited number of people out there who love my work enough to actually buy it. Lowering my prices is not going to increase that number. It is much easier to make a higher amount per sale than it is to find more buyers. In other words, selling an image once for $200 is less difficult than selling it ten times for $20. At least that has been my experience so far." -- Loree Johnson

I also think it would be cool to live in a motor home.

Pricing has always been my biggest obstacle, as I have mentioned to others when I think their pricing is too low. If I think it's too low, chances are it's really low. I plan on taking a good hard look at the prices on my higher resolution end just as soon as no one uses this discount code I am offering this month.

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

From Ross Lewis 3:30 PM-Friday Eastern Time

We have all hit on a very powerful topic. Reality!!!

Surely, we are all passionate and dedicated to our art and photography.
At the same time, we are all, daily, aware of our finances or the lack of finances in our lives.

It doesn't matter if the model introduced at the beginning of this discussion is $50,000 or $75,000 or $500,000 or more....or less.
The principals still hold true.

"Is It Possible To Earn YOUR TARGET INCOMES through sales of art and/or photography via the internet and FAA?"
"Or.....are you (we) living in HOPE which is not Reality???"

Thank you ALL....please let's continue this...I assure you....lots of people are Tuning In!!
Ross Lewis

 

Nicky Jameson

9 Years Ago

If you focus on lack, chances are you attract lack. You become what you think about - with hard work,belief persistence, a vision and support. You have to hustle (side hustle if you have a day job) and create your own reality. But if you cannot visualize it, it's unlikely you will be able to achieve it. I like to spend time around entrepreneurs, business people, or find people who have done what I aim to do so that I can learn from them - especially how to be a better business person. I find I have to be careful who I listen to - negative talking drags me down.

Anything is possible (as is evident by the contributions offered already) however I think it may be the wrong focus. For example If you price your art at $1,000 a piece you'd only need to sell 75 of them. That's a respectable number. Can it be done online on a POD? Maybe. Unlikely. Offline? Certainly, successful artists do it (for a lot more) all the time - the thing is someone dropping that kind of money is unlikely to do so online and without seeing the pieces. But if you cannot see your art fetching $1,000, $2,000 and up.... then neither will any customers. If your art is a commodity it will attract people looking for a cheap deal. But who cares about selling online if, by finding your target buyers you can do it directly to a collector/buyer? I think a lot of people bought the kool-aid that having an FAA site (or any online storefront for that matter) was the ticket so sales, so you could set it and forget and the world would beat a path to your site....that is very misleading because it is very passive. Selling art follows the principles of any other business... find a market for your product, differentiate, be clear about what makes you unique, promote and market yourself and make it about the client not you. Then the various storefronts become points to which to drive people if needed. Personally I think there's nothing like in-person sales. But it's not like a big bang, there is no magic bullet and it does not happen overnight... it's lots of little things done often and consistently according to your business plan until you reach your business goal.

 

Ross Lewis

9 Years Ago

From Ross Lewis 8:22AM (Eastern)Saturday Morning

Thank you Nicky. Valid points.
As we, as a community collect ideas and thoughts from this Discussion, it appears that the original question has been answered:

>>Initial Conclusion regarding Internet Sales of Your Work: An Artist/Photographer Cannot Make a Substantial Living Via Internet and FAA Sales.

>>Second Conclusion: To earn a substantial living through Art, your Sales of an must Predominantly be generate via other avenues which do not include the the internet (Art Shows/Museums/Fairs/Direct Sales)

The Discussion has now taken a new direction:
Would you AGREE or DISAGREE with the Above Conclusions? And, Specifically support your answers to these two conclusions.

Thank you all for a very generous and powerful conversation.
Ross Lewis

 

This discussion is closed.