What Does It Take To Get Out There?

We aren't allowed by the law to discuss other POD sites. I will state like this one they too require you to promote yourself outside of their site.

3500 visitors in one years isn't much, considering most of those are probably bots, which tells me you aren't actually promoting as much as you think, or you don't have followers where you are promoting... like shouting in an empty room.

You don't have many images, and a lot are patents that many other people sell on here and elsewhere... stuff in the public domain has a lot of competition.

Mike Savad where are you? help! Hi patricia. I am sorry to hear your dilemma. Thats a long time. I am seeing what looks like a type of diagram. What about marketing your talent to medical or engineering companies producing technical manuals. Maybe collaborate with a technical writer. hope this is a new perspective

I see places you could work on keywords - for example, your chihuahua painting I could see selling, but you don't have just the keyword dog or chihuahua, you have phrases people are probably not typing into a keyword search.

Candidly some of your work really looks like niche work that may need specific target marketing outside of FAA. Kinda confused by how you mix pieces that seem so unrelated.

Organize your work into galleries, and start people off on that tab. Since your stuff is all over the place in terms of subject, look and medium that might help.

Hi all,

Heather, I am not sure what type of keywords my chihuahua painting could use but could surely look into other options with what I have. As far as promoting, I am following and participating in groups in the sites I mentioned. I am not sure how to get out there to promote more visitors. :(

L C good idea with the medical and engineering companies. did not think of that one yet. I could certainly look into that.

I guess what I am looking for is how do I get out there outside of what I have already been doing. I cannot afford to purchase adwords or other expensive sites who are suppose to promote your site. Anything for the starving artist outside of locally is what I am looking for.

Your keywording is lacking, to put it mildly.. For a barber chair patent you would want Barber, chair, barber chair for starters. You are not even going to show up in a search for barber chair. You seem to put in a lot of long phrases and ignore the short ones. You would be in more searches if you did the opposite. The search will recombine the words to make the phrases. You have to do both really. With recombinations a couple dozen relevant words will put you in hundreds of searches. With long phrases if there is not an exact match the work won't even show up.
You are basically invisible to those who would be looking for the work you have. Also make galleries you default view and make more galleries.

well for starters I just looked at your twitter, no keywords - you're just auto tweeting when you upload... don't do that. Copy and paste the link to your work in, add keywords and your name. You're only following 24 people, your profile photo is 3 people pixilated, no cover photo, no link to website in bio... Find people who might be interested in your work - dog lovers, patent lawyers, etc...

Are you actively working to build up your following by connecting with new people, or are you simply broadcasting your art to anyone who might happen to be in the vicinity? For example, if you have 10 followers on Pinterest, the odds of someone seeing what you pin at any given time are slim; you need to build up that community and look for ways to participate instead of just posting new pins of your work.

When you participate on social media outlets, do you pretty much stick to groups with other artists, or do you go to groups that interest you or that have some sort of connection to your art themes? Patting other artists on the back is encouraging and kind, but it doesn't necessarily drive people to YOUR work. Finding a community or FB group that shares a common interest and allows you to establish common ground and connections--and THEN promoting some of your work--will be much more effective.

People don't like to be marketed to, but really, they don't want to feel like they're being marketed to, even though they know they are. They buy from people they know, like, and trust. When you build connections, you open up opportunities to expand that knowledge, goodwill, and trust. Find a way to help someone else get what they want, and you might just get what you want.

Thank you for mentioning the Twitter keywording. I too wasnt doing that.. thank you for helping a novice

For your chihuahua you don't even have chihuahua as a keyword. You will not be in the search for chihuahua. You are getting too specific with the phrases. You don't need "contemporary chihuahua art" . The "art" is automatic. So are words like print. You would do way better with chihuahua, contemporary, etc

Yeah I think Christi is on to something. Are u just broadcasting your work anywhere everywhere chaoticallly to just get it out there?

Does anyone know how people are getting their work into FAA "collections"? They are very organized and easy to search in terms of subjects. That might be a way to promote yourself. I haven't yet been able to find the answer, but have just posted the question to FAA.

There are other discussions about that - off topic for this thread... use the search and put in keyword collections to find them. There have been several recently. Basically staff is making up the collections and they are not complete yet/ongoing.

Hi Patricia!

I had to wait exactly one year for the first sale. Now there are 11 in 27 months. That means less than 15 Dollars per month. Meanwhile I have more than 2000 photos in stock.

There are so many reasons. Some I did find out during the last two years but there wll be many more:
1. You need a great selection of artwork if possible in different themes/galleries. 137 is a really small quantity!
2. The market is much smaller than You think. Otherwise FAA would publish the relation of sales to uploaded artwork. Did You ever recognize anything about sales numbers?
3. It is very difficult to break the barrier: You sell if You are known but You are only known if You sell.
4. Even if the quality of Your own artwork is good: there is too much bad quality when You search with one of the major keywords. Try it ! That lets probable customers stop going on.
5. Who is searching here? I think most (or nearly all) are no professionals. That has big influence to the used keywords. The big number of artwork needs a search by more detailed keywords or keyword combinations to get what You want. Because most people do not know how to use keywords You have no influence. Bad luck for us !
6. I have some skepticism in the keyword function of FAA. I often did not find my own artwork when I used more than one keyword which I definitely used for my artwork.
7. Your customers are normally not the FAA members. So Your marketing activity within FAA will be less successful than You may think. I did offer a discount a while ago. What was the result ? I did get a very harsh comment from one of the top sellers that he does not want to buy anything from me. He only was interested in his own business and uploaded his photos i.e. to contests where they did not hit the theme. That is also marketing but very poor!

Good luck and see it as a hobby. More may be unrealistic.

Greetings from Bavaria

Rudi

P.S. Van Gogh sold only one painting in his lifetime

quote: "There is no local market for me as I live over 250 miles from the nearest art exhibits that FAA promotes, so online is the only way for me to market and show my artwork. "

Never mind FAA. The fact that FAA does not promote near your home does not mean there is no market near your home. Get off line and meet people face to face. You need to build trust with people, and they need to see your work a bunch of times in a period of time. People online come once and then they are gone. Build a newsletter starting yesterday and keep in contact with anyone interested in your work and use it start laying down the foundations of trust. This year alone I have done 14 public showings in various places, it's very much a full time job and then some to make that happen, and that is what it takes. Ass busting, roller coaster of highs and lows. Do what other people are not doing, and on FAA there are a TON of people doing it. It's like any other business, it takes time....ALOT of time for people to get to know who you are. Start a journal immediately and only record successes in it. When you are at your lowest, read through your successes it will keep you going.

thanks for the pep talk rudi, very inspiring stuff.

have you considered putting your artwork on items and marketing them that way? i.e clothes, home decor stuff.

Heather. Thanks for reply. I'm sure it would be beneficial for Patricia's sale to get into the collections. I just didn't have the answer myself. So, - on topic. But thanks anyway. It helped me, and, - hopefully, - Patricia.

Kim, you should forget the collections exist!
Patricia, the comments suggested to you are good ones. Visits are meaningless. I get almost 7000 a week and don't sell. There is a lot of competition on the site.

My thoughts are the same as Martin, so I have started new promotion of fb, promoting your own work, not sharing others, with a difference :

Here is a link: http://fineartamerica.com/groups/promote-our-art-.html?showmessage=true&messageid=2117824

You need to have a fb professional page and read and follow the rules.

Heather is right. Collectons is off topic because it is not something the artist has controll over. Well if you are famous or a big seller you may be able to negotiate that but until then we have to use our own marketing to increase our reach. The simplest thing we all have controll over is the title, keywords and descriptions. Beyond that there is promotion. And they work together as promotion affects your Google rank,and can even affect your FAA rank, but only if the file has the right words in the places i mentioned.

What Kevin said is also important.
And FAA does not promote events. You can promote your own events on FAA but best to do that locally.

I disagree. I have now read the discussions with FAA and taken a new look at the collections. In my view FAA is doing a good (although ungrateful) job with the collections. They are very well organized, and, of course, pointed towards selling. FAA is a business, and the way collections are organized will support sale. There's no need to be naive about this!

OK, so how does that serve you Patricia?

As I see your portfolio, you are on the right track for sales. You have large groups of specialized works, and that is what collections like. They are chosen by staff in an ongoing process, so on top of all good advice on this string, you might want to follow Heathers advice on making galleries for each specialty. Also you will have to collect experience on how to be exposed optimally by many different means and ways.

I would say you fit nicely into the collection of "Pop Art Automobiles". You just need a larger collection. And even if you don't get in, that would be a very good discipline to make larger, specialized, stylized galleries. It fits very well to you. E.g. your technical drawings. And in the end specialized byers will find it to be easier to find and overlook what's on the market.

Most people give up just before they get there. So hang on Patricia! Everything takes time. In time you WILL have the experience. We all struggle the same battles on FAA.

Best of luck to all of you!

all the places you mentioned that you advertise too - don't have customers, they have other artists. stumble is a random placer, facebook is a pool party, pinterest is a random bulletin board, tumblr is not much of a social board, it's another pinterest. deviant is another place to sell art, but has artists, so they aren't buyers, also hard to search. get on twitter.

i'm going to be blunt. selling art is hard. you can advertise till your fingers fall off, if you don't have work that may look good in their house, they won't buy anything. simple as that. there are only so many people that will want a tree stump in 6 colors on their wall.

many of your images are either travel shots of statues or blueprints. which have a limited appeal. and the keywords for those outlines the object. toy solider is written about 10 times, but doesn't mention toy, child's room, engineer, blue prints, etc - in other words the type of person looking for it. not many will be looking for the words you used - and as a phrase no less.

you have a series of flags - i'm not sure how many would hang those. you have no gallery, only a few images made it in the gallery. a buyer would have to go through everything to see if they wanted anything. but i mostly see a lot of colorful blueprints of stuff. you only have a 100 or so things up, that's not a lot. and if you remove the 5 color combinations from each one, you would have around 20? or so.

so that's my view. you need more work - in less colors. things you would hang in your house. that's the main secret in selling, make things the customer would like to have in their own house. then you need to build up a customer base relating to the things you sell. if you do it randomly, the ads will be ignored.

https://twitter.com/patricialintner
this is you on twitter - you have 4 followers. you need about 3000. sending stuff to those 4 people will not get you sales. you have to work at that amount. it is a lot of work. then don't post them with the images - it becomes a gallery, there is no need to look at your page. if you don't use any #hashtags, no one will find you. it becomes a message at that point. your kind of sporadic in your posting, 1 a day missing a few in a week. post at least 3 a day, forget images use hashtags that might interest certain people. if you can't think of the tags, then you may have the wrong kind of image because if you can't think of who will want it, how will a buyer know to look for it?

---Mike Savad

for example - i don't know this is. you have more about the watermark and who the original person was and if you want it in a different color then what the invention is. that would be the interesting and educational part, but you can't take it word for word. for keywords - police, weapon? blueprint,drawing,engineer,engineering student,and whatever this thing is.


you use the word chihuahua here, but you used it a dozen times, in weird phrases. you mentioned this store quite a few times as well, and most of those aren't needed - chihuahua,dog,sad,face,skinny,thin,anorexic,vet,veterinarian,dog lovers,i love chihuahuas,mammal,animal,hairy,painting,lonely,adopt,adoption,begging,alone,abandoned,isolated,single,one,canine,k9,pet,sad dog,crying,emotional,animal,animal lover,female, and so on.


---Mike Savad

Hi Pat, What everyone else said. It is a lot of work to effectively market...and then there is the fact that you don't always know what you did that increased views so you end up doing all of it. I'm just learning to do that and it seems to be working to some extent....I don't really like doing it but I LOVE doing the art so it is the only way I can justify doing the art part. If you look at those that sell regularly you will see a lot of images and views in the hundred of thousands if not millions. So I would say you should not be discouraged...your image and view counts are low. Your Chihuahua painting is great and maybe you should do more like it. Create a whole gallery of sweet animals like Loretta and enjoy yourself with your art...while you continue to market :)

Wow,I woke up this morning and got on here and see so much in a different light.

I did not realize my keywords were lacking but as many of you have pointed out, they obviously are. This will be one of the first things I will tackle right away. Without the proper keywords I know it is hard to be seen. I am just not educated in that part of getting out there, but with all of these suggestions, it has certainly helped me.

I enjoy all kinds of art as you all can see, and my chihuahua art was mentioned several times. There is nothing like picking up the paint brush as that is my first love, digital art I also enjoy but it gives me a chance to create when I simply do not have the time to paint.

Galleries are the next on my list. I had started some but really need to optimize that. Is it not good to make one item in several colors? I was thinking of decor wise (that blue chevy would not go with my decor but the brown would). That is why I have done this. I do also plan on doing more too, but alas, it just takes time.

I really don't know how to work the Pinterest thing and have started following other people such as interior decorators. I think I need to expand that though as I don't want to come across like I am just trying to promote myself and nothing more. I guess I did not even realize it looks like that, but I see now it does.

Nicole, you hit the nail on the head. I would love to have my art on items such as clothing, home decor stuff. My Pantone color sticks are specifically for that but not sure how to get to that point.

Mike Sevad, I really appreciate your bluntness and pointing out what you did. I have a fond interest in patent art and yes, I do not know what some of these instruments are but there are others out there that do. Should I be putting more of that in my descriptions? Would that help? I guess I overlooked the many that don't know what a policeman's silent is but it was the suggestion of my brother in law who is a police officer to do some patents on police equipment.

Rudi, wow I didn't realize Van Gogh sold only one painting. Don't worry, I won't be cutting off any ears. I really admire his work and it shows it's not only in the sale, it's about loving what you do.

Val, your words are so kind and make me feel I do have a chance, I just have to keep working at it.

Words cannot express how grateful and appreciative I am for you all taking the time to respond and help me. I know I am not the only out there going through this. I hope this thread will also help others out there, as it has me. I don't feel like throwing in the towel anymore, I feel like I better get to work. Optimize my keywords, work on my galleries, getting out there more by working on a FB page, and really looking at what people would want to hang in their home. My Pantone color sticks were created with that in mind, and I think now I should really be looking at that more, while keeping my creativity moving forward.

Thank you all so much. What a wonderful community of people I have here. Heck, I used to get on FB first thing in the morning, and now I have been for quite some time going to FAA first thing in the morning :)

Warm Regards

Patricia

if you don't know what the subject is, how is the buyer going to know? you need to find out what it does, so you can describe it and market it that way. no lots of colors for the same thing won't work for you that well. and the colors you chose are kind of intense, they wouldn't look good on a wall. blue prints are commonly blue, or paper color. on an older piece of paper it might look good. on a garish green background, it won't match anything in a room of a house.

anything that can tell a person what they are looking at and why is needed. and it's needed for you because you have to find people that are interested in that particular thing. however there is a limited appeal to patents. and anything public domain - can be done by any person. to stand out you have to be totally original, which is why you should focus on the dog and other images like that. that would make you stand out better than having a prism of tree stumps.

uniqueness sells. someone should be able to look at your pieces and know you did it. lots of people have patents already. and if you do patents, they shouldn't be random and odd. they should be typical like an old medical device. or something that we use now like a toaster.

---Mike Savad

Patricia. Check your local library for this title: 'New Markets for Artists' by Brainard Carey

You'll find more information about the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/New-Markets-Artists-Projects-Kickstarter/dp/1581159137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412262637&sr=8-1&keywords=New+Markets+for+Artists

what else i noticed is presentation. you have some very fine paintings buried at the back of your images. you want those 13-14 images right up front on the first page. put your finest pieces in the first 6 slots, right now the "more from..." under an image is showing 6 identical wood images in different colors.

Quote "Optimize my keywords, work on my galleries, getting out there more by working on a FB page"

You are wasting your time. I spent hours upon hours upon days upon weeks and months key wording, working on my website, and posting on Facebook. I started to bring in income when I started to publicly show my work over and over again. I'm talking about real income and not just some random occasional sale online. Facebook is a huge pool, and very few people are looking to actually buy anything there. It's good for building your brand, but if you want cold hard sales then get your work, and you out in front of people and expect it to take some time.

You need to start working on targeting down your demographic (here's a hint, it's not "anyone who will buy my work") and talk to that type of person directly. This takes a loooooong time to do. Start showing your work on walls immediately, trust me on this I can't even tell you how much time I wasted and money I lost doing that other stuff. Out of all the advice you are getting here I would ask how many people make their living off of their key wording on FAA? I think Mike is, but look at how his work stands out and I'm still curious how long it actually took to get to the point he is at now. Do what 99% of other artists are not willing to do. Go do shows, make cold calls, go meet people face to face and follow up with them. Start building a newsletter right now and find ways to bring people value so that they trust you over time.

Too many people think they can just build a website, throw in keywords and start making a living from it and getting sales within months. You want to live your dream? Then realize that sitting back after key wording and building a social media following and then sitting back and waiting for sales through sites like this is not going to get you there. You can do it, but it's going to be a constant struggle to make it happen. I just don't want you to have to look back to now after 1 year and realize that all of these auto sales attempts was a waste of time. If you only want an occasional sale with no measurable consistency then ignore what I just said. FAA is a great satellite store and supplement, so please realize this is not FAA bashing.

Kevin you joined in May and have nothing for sale right now. Does that make you some kind of expert on online selling? I started making sales from the first month here 2 years ago. I share my advice on how to do it when i see someone is struggling. Brick and mortar is great. I used to do it.for someone who has the time and money to invest that is fine. I am reaching a far wider audience online. Facing up to my target market I would need a private jet. My first 3 sales were to Australia. Texas, Louisiana, DC, Georgia and Florida are all places where my collectors reside.

There is plenty of good advice in this thread and I think Patricia has her priorities right. Organize the work up into galleries. Make galleries the default. Work on keywords because without that all other marketing is wasted. You don't have to market to sell. In the long run you will be way better off for it, but you can make sales while building you social media audience in your own time.
The main thing is do not give up. Amy take a year or to to figure out what they have to do. Some never will. Still there are a rare few who have finally done everything ans still do not sell. They may be 95% there. Sometimes the sales are a lot closer than you think For sure with an empty store you will never sell.

The overwhelming majority of selling advice here comes down to "lots of images", "search" and "keywords". The overwhelming majority of people handing out that advice are stock photographers and/or have images that are very keywordable.

That works for stock. It's the only thing that does work. Stock is a mature industry. That's how you do it.

For anyone looking to sell your images, ask yourself: Can I sell my images the way stock photographers sell theirs? Do I have thousands of very keywordable images?

IF you put your eggs in that basket, can you survive a change in search engine algorithms? Search engines are constantly tweaked, modified and "improved". Major changes happen once or twice a year. If you do a little research on this, you'll find threads of stock sellers screaming, complaining, cajoling, pleading and making demands to search engine programmers to "put it back the way it was!" and "how unfair!" the changes are. Some sellers hit the jackpot when changes are made, others find their sales trickle to nothing. Can you afford to play that game?

Strong sales come from your ability to build strong relationships. If you never build relationships you will forever have to depend on unearthing new, random buyers for your work. You can build a life and a career on a few strong relationships. It doesn't take many. Without relationships, it takes a boatload of keywordable images.

Every strong relationship starts small, tentative and sometimes random. Put the tools in place to grow them:

-- Your own website that you control that can't be randomly changed against your will.
-- Your own signup form for capturing emails of people interested in your work.
-- Your own newsletter for cultivating those tiny leads you get from your signup form.
-- A way for buyers to contact you directly. If you make them jump through hoops to buy your art or work with you -- or to even find out who you are -- they won't.
-- Your own blog on your own site. If you write (or have someone else write) solid content, it attracts viewers (who sometimes turn into buyers) for as long as it's on the web. Do NOT use Facebook or another social media for your blog. It can disappear in a heartbeat. Keep it under your control.
-- Real-world postcard marketing. Mail 'em, hand them out, use them for thank you cards.

Ask any of the regular sellers on FAA what happens to their business if FAA disappears? If they've done the things I've listed above, it will only be a minor inconvenience. If not, their sales are over until they find a new POD (which they don't control) with new rules and build everything back up.

You can keyword yourself into oblivion and update social media until you're blue in the face. And then they change the rules on you. If you're going to put in the work, why not put it into building solid relationships and into marketing YOU control?


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

I agree Dan! Well said.

Kim Lessel

dan your assuming that's the only thing we said. keywords is just one part of the puzzle, but one that shouldn't be overlooked, since you'll have more window shoppers than anything else, and they find you using those words. don't have them, they won't come. it would be great if everyone could sell their work like you do, but not everyone has that skill or that time. i would rather be creating something new. all that stuff takes time, where as keywords don't take that much effort, and tweeting is free and it builds up as well. if people had the ability to go out and usher people in - there would be no - i didn't make any sales - threads.


---Mike Savad

Yes I call keywording and descriptions laying the foundation. Not the key to success. Although I have to say it does leverage anything else you do to have search engines promoting you and that can far exceed what you get through a mailing list, tweeting etc. It's the synergy that you want. Note that Patricia does have very strong subject matter and very searchable if it was tagged right. Yesterday a few large buyers came in and bought a lot of art. Did anyone notice? I went to" recent sales" and saw the keywords the sold images had. One was "Texas". The buyer from OK. Not all of the photos were the first thing you would think of as Texas. Not steers in a filed of bluebonnets. But from Texas nonetheless. No social media or marketing resulted in those sales. Just having the right images for what the buyer wanted. Thats called picking the low hanging fruit. If you have what the buyer wants and don't have it tagged you get nothing.

"If you have what the buyer wants and don't have it tagged you get nothing."

That's commercial art. We need it. I love it. I buy a lot of stock. I am a commercial artist.

Fine Art is a different animal. Mostly it isn't about doing what the client wants. Fine Art is mostly created as a purely personal artistic expression. To try and fit it into the stock marketing mold can be demoralizing.

My posts (most of 'em!) are about the Fine Artist, and creating what you want without search engine considerations, without trying to gaze into a crystal ball to guess what other people want. Fine Art is about creating your thing your way.

Then, how do you market ART that you physically can't crank out by the thousands, isn't created for corporate brochures or coffee mugs or shower curtains and isn't search engine friendly?

That's where I come in. I am also a Fine Artist. I know how to work that side of the street -- the side where people are not likely to find that piece of art through a search engine and didn't know they even wanted it until I showed it to them.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

Looking at your port I'd say - you are trying too hard to sell. You already have a full time job and a family to take care of - give yourself a break. Create for the joy of it and don't concentration on selling. Sales will come when you reach the point of finding what you enjoy best.

I hate to say it, but sales come when them come. I know that's a platitude, but it's also a reality. You say that after a year of doing this, following your dream , you are ready to throw in the towel. I can't think of many people who are willing to give up on their dream after just one year.

As for me, I'm glad that selling art is difficult. If it were any easier, then it would be monstrously more competitive and much more difficult. I've been doing this for years, and I am continually amazed at how much I still need to learn and do. Business is like that. Very few ventures worth participating in are easy.

I have to agree with Edward Fielding and Dan Turner above.

As for Mike Savad, meh, he's always right.

Let it happen, don't try to force it. Work at it, but don't let the lack of sales dissuade you.

It never gets easier, but the rewards make it worth while.

If you want easy, you can always hand out food samples at the big box stores.

-YoPedro

Best statement of the thread.

"As for me, I'm glad that selling art is difficult. If it were any easier, then it would be monstrously more competitive and much more difficult."

And somehow I know this to be true and understand it completely! But it still sounds funny!

I share your frustration. Especially since the Google Search Engines were so kind to me. When I posted at Webshots I had 10 photo albums #1 in the world including World's Most Creative Album. Went to Google+ and currently have over 36 million views. But aside from two very small sales to other Google+ members not a thing. But like you I see other photographers with limited talent selling their work left and right. They say "It's not how good you are, it's who you know." Unfortunately that seems to be true. Those who are connected with corporate higher ups or politicians who are public figures have it made. The rest of us....well....we have to hope things change.

Dan, you really like to pull the pompous "fine art" card. And photographers if they have subject matter are all "stock photographer" as if that is a dirty word. This is the internet. I try and show people what works here. I have a lot of insights. I am well aware of the marketing techniques for artists and how to build a reputation. I am trying to help people that want to be found and seen by others searching for what we have here. Even if that is not your primary goal. Because that is what this site is about. Its a POD with galleries and a search.

I took some time out to give some very good and specific advice on how to get found in the searches here and not only did I not get any personal thanks but I feel my advice bothers some people. If you are on a search site selling art with dogs then I would be remiss not to point out that you would want to put "dogs" in as a keyword. I don't have the sales problems everyone else seems to have. Maybe my work is not a fine as others fine art. I really don't care. Its my art and I have been selling fine no matter what I do for 20 years. I have won awards I didn't even ask to win. I sold my first 100 pieces without even really offering it for sale. Same with my biggest licensing deal which was a wine label. Oh I know that's not "fine art". Who cares I am dam proud of it. They said my work was chosen after a one years search and it was not on an art site or a stock site or on Flickr. It was just on a small photo gallery with no keywords or description. Just a title. And Edward is right . No need to stress over it. Enjoy the journey. This is not a get rich quick scheme. Done here. I am always available to help others.

Bradford, I think you give great advice. We are not in conflict. My advice simply reminds fine artists who don't have 1000's of keywordable images that there are solid, proven ways to sell fine art online that don't compromise their vision or their art.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

you said there are no art markets near you? however, you can ship your work all over the place. i send work to many shows all over the country and overseas. you have to submit your work to the appropriate shows and if accepted, pack it up in a box and send it out. you don't have to be there in person. online is not the only way to go. even if it does not sell, you've put yourself in front of a new audience.

Quote "Kevin you joined in May and have nothing for sale right now. Does that make you some kind of expert on online selling? I started making sales from the first month here 2 years ago. I share my advice on how to do it when i see someone is struggling. Brick and mortar is great. I used to do it.for someone who has the time and money to invest that is fine."end quote

Well it's certainly interesting that you took a defensive stance to something that was not directed at you in any way. I make 100% of my income from selling my photographs as artwork. What percentage of your living do you make from your art? I think that makes me qualified to give input and advice despite your attempt to disqualify my advice with your observation about me not having work up.

Where did I say anything about brick and mortar? I don't have a storefront. What I suggested was getting her work out in front of people in person and there are many ways to do that without a brick and mortar. It is her dream she said, and that is what it takes to make that a reality. It's far more effective than swimming up this river at FAA.

Do you know why I don't have anything for sale here? Because it's not a priority for me. It's on the list, but it's pretty far down there. Why? Why should I compete with the endless amount of people on here as a priority? I'd rather focus on what you are all NOT doing. It's been working very well for me so far. Another problem I have here is all of my work is numbered or limited editions and I do all of my own, or directly supervise printing. Still trying to find a workaround for that before putting work back up here. I signed up here with the intent of using it as a "satellite" store online.

just tossing in something not to get in the way of either of you... but if you were making $10 and that's all, mentioning a 100% of that is kind of pointless. because even people in burgerking are probably using all 100% of their profits.

anyway carry on.


---Mike Savad

...lol. A living wage. But just don't ask what it breaks down to hourly over an average 15 hour work day with all the stuff that doesn't include shooting time..I'd much prefer to stay ignorant on that one. The only time I do that hourly calculation is after a show.

Kevin, I think your posts are spot on.

Carolyn, great contribution and great advice.

We need to be more diligent in letting artists know that "keywords" and "search" are never the whole story and, depending on the art and artist, might not play any role in their marketing.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

once broken down that way, its often best not to know, especially since it will vary from month to month.

---Mike Savad

Keywording is sometimes hard to keyword! I have trouble coming up with many different keywording. Help!

Boy, where do I start?

I have so many giving me great advice and I want you all to know, I do not find any of it negative in any way. On the flip side, I find all of your suggestions and comments so helpful. Yes, there are different opinions and the how's and not how's, and yes, there is not one right answer. There are many.

For one, I have found is that I have stressed so hard over not getting anything back for all my hard work, that I have somewhat taken the joy out of what I am doing in the first place, creating. yes, I will admit that my goal is to do art only and quit that day JOB I hate going to every day. I carelessly overlooked that I need to remind myself time and time again..IT TAKES TIME.

My take on the advice I have received here.

Yes, I need to get my work in galleries

Yes I need to work on my keywords here as I took a good hard look at them and thought "well no wonder no one is finding me" A little over 3,000 views is not going to do it. I need to do better. Although this is not the only answer as many have said, it is one worth working on nevertheless.

Yes, I need to look harder into my local market and not get so hung up on my success just on FAA. There is life outside of FAA. (not to take anything away from here, just don't focus all my energies here).

Yes it would suck if FAA were gone tomorrow if that is all I worked on.

Yes, I need to look at doing what I love most and not just what I think is going to sell. That was a hard one Mike. Thanks for the "tough love"

Yes, I need to find "my style" or my "niche". I have had a couple of positive comments on my dog art (some even inboxing me) so maybe I need to focus my energies on other areas. How does one know their style when they want to try something when the creativeness hits them?

What have I done today since I started this thread. While I am on vacation it can't wait any longer. I put my artwork into galleries. What an eye opener! Now I look at my profile page and it is not so discombobulated. There was a lot of work that probably went unseen because the viewer once they got in, there was just too much going on that didn't make sense, and they got out just as fast as they came in. Can't blame them there...

I have also started working on my keywords, which will take some time. Hey no one said this was going to be easy. This will be a work in progress.

Now some responses I need to respond to.

Mike, the reason why I chose more vivid colors for my patents was because I didn't want to do what everyone else is doing. When you said " the colors you chose are kind of intense, they wouldn't look good on a wall. blue prints are commonly blue, or paper color. on an older piece of paper it might look good. on a garish green background, it won't match anything in a room of a house." that to me says I should be doing what everyone else is doing. I wanted to do something different. I just want to do it my way. ,Ok so maybe vivid green would not look good on a wall, but there is a lot of vivid green art being sold so someone must have interior decorating in vivid green. :)

You may find the more vivid color choices I used were "garish" but that I am certain would not be the opinion of everyone out there. I wanted to stand out and not "go with the flow" of what everyone else is doing. Yes, there are others doing patent art, but I love it too. Yes, maybe doing patent art that is not out there yet and is somewhat different may be hard to sell, but again, I don't want to do what everyone else is doing. The police patents I did was suggested by my brother in law who is a police officer and thought those would be good (the police silent for example).

Again the same for my tree stumps in different colors. Who else is doing that? Why not have them in different colors. You never know who will see it and like it. If someone can sell a picture of hair perm rods dirty after they were just used in a dirty bin, or an ice chest full of beer, why not tree stumps in different colors? Again I wanted to be different.

With that said Mike, you do have some valid comments that I have taken to heart and I do want constructive criticism as I don't need fluff and flowers, but good strong advice. Thank you for that.


Now I need to find my niche. That will probably be another thread as I don't want to get off the tracks on this one.

You all have no idea how much you have opened up my eyes to what I have been stressing out for quite some time on. There is not one right answer, but many. Some may not seem right to some, but to me I have taken each and every comment to heart and will refer back to this thread to keep my dreams moving forward and myself to grow.

I want to personally thank you all for all your help. I am moving forward with new eyes and a strong heart.

God Bless

Patricia

how is standing out working out for you?


its not about going with the flow. if something doesn't work, you don't keep doing it, you do new things and experiment. so if you put up some plans and you have few views, and no sales, you don't put up more, thinking now is the time it will work.

the thinking-- you never know who will like it. or someone will buy it... no one will. if you don't have a target in mind, you won't find that market. it's like creating an item on your menu that may involve turkey, beef, chocolate and butterscotch. while there is one person that might like it, you'll have a larger number leaving. you want the things on your menu that will attract the most people.

the reason why people don't do tree stumps in different colors are - they don't really sell. and i can't imagine the type of person who wants such a thing.

don't worry about a niche, that will come. just do the things you enjoy and can imagine hanging in your own house.

---Mike Savad

I just want to say thank you to Patricia for opening this thread and to everyone for your input. I am new here, and every little bit of information I can pick up is helpful. The advice here is great.

To Patricia, I want to reiterate what others have said, this should not be work, it should be joyful. If you are hanging on to what you create in hopes of making money, I think that kind of kills the entire purpose of art. It is a creative flow and thus is should express love in some way. I look at Mike's work and he may be, what others call a stock photographer, but he is an artist. He pictures are really wonderful. It is not surprising to me that he sells lots of them. He is an unusual person because he not only creates art but he does it with a directive or purpose, maybe its for barbers or writers or whatever, but he puts a practical spin on his art and then he takes it still another step by making sure to fill in all the blanks on the business side by setting up his galleries and working out all the keywords. Yes, this takes time. It takes time to learn and to do, but if you love what you do, you find the time. That time is an investment in your future. Mike continues to grow and reap the rewards of the foundation he created. And he generously shares it with others.

I have been here just over a month now, I adore painting, photography and digital art. I also run several online businesses that I own, as well as working with clients now for more than 25 years. So to say I am busy is an understatement. But I made a decision to return to art as my basis when I turn sixty five, about eighteen months from now. So I am building that foundation. I do that by challenging myself to produce at least one picture every day. But not to throw duplicates or anything up to just fill that, but to post images that I feel are valuable. I must admit though I have posted four that were for contests and so I may have strayed there a bit. But I am feeling my way around this site and this new internet/digital world.

I joined August 29th and have posted 63 pieces to date. Have I sold anything, no, do I expect any sales, no. I am wading into the water and hopefully putting my best foot forward. But each day I learn a little more and will not stop learning. This is a journey not a destination.

Getting one's art out into the world should be an act of love. Is it work, well when we look back it is. When we go into a gallery or contact a gallery or set up and tear down at a show, all of that is work. But to set in motion a flow of money, that takes getting the details right, and doing the work. So it is like giving birth, it takes time, learning and sometimes for a few hours, a painful push to get it done.

Dan's statements also ring with sound advice, he reminds us that this site is a current gift and not our own, so to shore up our work, we should create a separate independent site. I als noticed that Dan includes his phone number and email on his page, I believe this is a very good idea. I will implement this. I know I always keep our phone number on all of our websites because some people want to call to ask questions. I have had online businesses since 1998, I started here simply to give my clients a place to find me and get information I would otherwise have to repeat. But I know people will call and that is a real gift because as soon as you are speaking to them, they discover who you are and a real relationship develops. Someone who likes you is far more inclined to become a collector of your art. I expect if you started to speak with another dog person you would be instant friends and sell art to them.

I hope that you will revive your dream.. you may change it, tweak it, even completely reinvent it, but do what you love, learn and grow. There is a road to success for everyone and most will contain similar elements but each in the long run will be unique.

Thank you for the thread. I learn from everyone who shares. I so appreciate that.

Kevin - your posts are spot on. Stunning work by the way. Love your site.
Dan - as always, your posts are spot on too.
Carolyn - agree!

I too agree with Mike and Michele. Mike, if it's not working why keep doing it. Michele, I gotta keep it real and enjoy what I am doing, otherwise why do it really?

There is so much to learn and we all will continue to learn something new, even if it's not what we want to hear.

I hear what you say Mike and as hard as it is for all the many hours of time and sacrifice I have spent, I will have to re-focus. I just did a series of dog patents (collars, whistles, harnesses etc) do I post those now after spending many , many hours on them? They are of one of my top loves...dogs. I am not sure if I will post them now as there may not be a market for them, although no one is posting this specific artwork here. Only time will tell.

Patricia, what does it cost to post them? If they are complete, post away, just make sure to add as many keywords as you can, and gives as clear and complete a description as you can. Then let it go and go to your next project.

Be kind to yourself and persevere. But in all things love and have fun!

because while things might not be working, you switch over to something that might be working. i have a number of images that never sold. i go back to them and try to figure out why. compared to the stuff i make today, the old ones are either noisy, or they are too dark, don't have any life or color and no depth. the title might be boring, the keywords might be sparse, the description might lack luster because i didn't know how to write them then. so i redo the picture, new title, new objective, clean it up. make it pop again. and then it sells. if i toss it, i lose the sale. if i clean it up and re-purpose it, then it has a chance again.

then you experiment, upload everything in 2's. a few dogs, cats, birds, etc. and wait - like fishing where you try different bait, lures, locations, times, etc, it's about patience. and when you get a nibble (lots of comments, you might be on to something). if you get a bite, a sale of a dog, you might have an answer as to what sells. but they bought 1. so you wait. and another dog. so now you know dogs will do better in your style than the others. so you make 2 more dogs. and wait. they buy more dogs, but only a certain breed, and color. so because its an experiment, you make more of that type of dog, and they sell - now you have 1 niche. if you can repeat that with a variety of things you can focus on what may sell for you best.

however many make the mistake of uploading lots and lots of everything with no set focus of what sells. if you use a scientific approach it often works best. but what i sell and others sell will vary with technique.

every business will take hours to do. all of them. you have to put something in. it takes years for any company to become established. online it's harder because of all the distractions and if you never sold online till now, it could take longer than that.

if you already have art on a subject, upload them. its hard to say if they will be interesting or not. just note that if it's a really strange patent, people will say, oh how interesting and leave it there. because they can't identify with it. but if its something like a toothbrush, or an apple peeler, something any common person would have, that may sell better. its the topic you choose to put up that's important. and if you can identify items for people, then its easier to sell - like tooth brush and dentist goes together. find a series like that, put it on a parchment or navy blue background and you have something.

dog whistles and dog trainers go together.

its mostly how you market the things.


---Mike Savad

Mike you are really making a lot of sense to me. I am seeing what you are saying. I have had a lot of reflection back to when I started back in my art a couple of years ago and now to try to figure out "what is my niche"

I drove for 22 hours from Colorado back to my home in Minnesota this past day or so, I spent a lot of thought of where do I really want to go? I cannot tell you it is an easy answer, but I can tell you that I have a clearer picture of where I have wanted to go for a very long time, I needed to get back on course. Like a ship with no course in the middle of the ocean, one will likely end "somewhere" but not where they intended.

I lost my brother in law who was a best friend to me for 22 years two weeks ago at the age of 52 from liver failure. He was diagnosed only 4 months ago. He was only two months younger than me. Since he found out he was terminal and with such a short time, I have admittedly been feeling like I have no time to waste. This has had a major bearing on my recent frustration. My mom died suddenly at 47. Life is too short, how long is this going to take me? I am healthy and am also a personal trainer so take good care of myself. But we are not promised anything. I had hoped it would happen quicker than it has. I failed to look at how other people like you have spend so much time and it was not easy for you and many others' either. I spend those 22 hours driving home thinking a lot about this.

I admit I was taken aback with your views on some of my art and how I was doing it, and it was a bitter pill to swallow, but I am taking it like a captain and setting my sail back on course.

I will post my dog patents as I have a crazy love for them (I own six furry legged friends) and have since re-focused my energies where I saw my visions in the beginning of finally getting back into my art.

I have looked your work over and over and find consistency and I admire that. You have a profound style and I can only see it getting better.

I have had a great response from so many and some have even inboxed me, the response has been overwhelming yet also enlightening.

To me, this is only the beginning.

Thank you

Patricia

they have 6 legs? neat.


---Mike Savad

:)

" I have promoted for the past year to Pinterest, Tumblr, Deviant Art, Google, Stumple Upon, Facebook, Etsy to name a few, "

I don't think you can do all of those things and do any one or two of them right.

The big thing about all of the social media outlets is you have to first build a following large enough to do any good.

I think too many people feel they have to be on all of them. But how much time is it going to take to build a large enough following to get any sales form them? Even after you build a following you still have to interact with them to get any benefit.

Two of the largest sellers and one that show up on the top of the activities list for most visitors are on Twitter and Facebook all day long. I have talked to both of them and that is all they do. The have built relationships with other Twitter followers and they retweet as much other peoples work as the tweet their own. That broaden you reach ten fold if not more.

The same thing with joining groups.

As far as amercing yourself in the FAA community, that is not going to get you much in the way of sales. FAA artist for the most part are not buying that much work.

Groups, contests, likes, favorites and comments are all meaningless when it come to reaching buyers outside of FAA. And they meaning noting as far as the Google search. You need to seed your titles, keywords and descriptions with search terms that Google can find.

And you need to market outside of FAA as much as possible and you need to focus those efforts and not get spread so thin that you can't do any of them right.

100 tweets a day is going to be worth more to you then 150 posts, 15 each on 10 different SM site.

This is what advertising experts refer to as the the vertical market vs the horizontal. Which means if you you have $1000 to spend on radio advertising, you hare better doing $500 on two stations, then $100 each on ten stations.