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Randy Pollard

9 Years Ago

Personal Use

I kindly asked a clerk the other day if I could take a picture outside her store. Her question to me was, Is this for your personal use? Ofcourse I said, yes. Now what if I wanted to upload here at FAA for sell. Am I going to break the law because its a personal use only and send me to court. I didn't show the whole store when I took the shot and its Hdr.

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Jeffery Johnson

9 Years Ago

Well all I have to ask is, Are you a man of your word?

 

Barb Yates

9 Years Ago

Just go back by and ask for a release. It's the right thing to do since you've already stated it was for personal use only.

 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

No likely that a store front can be copyrighted.

If I still had one of my strobes I would gladly let anyone take a picture and use it anyway they wanted as long as my name showed. lol

As a matter of fact, I don't think I can legally stop them.

If a store front is not in the public domain, I don't know what is?

 

Melissa Herrin

9 Years Ago

Regardless of legal copyright. You gave your word that is was only for personal use.

 

Barb Yates

9 Years Ago

I guess I'm unclear on what it is you took a picture of? You didn't mention it was the storefront...but rather "outside her store". She obviously felt the need to get your agreement it would be for personal use only, which you agreed to.
So, the right thing to do in my opinion, is to get a release...simple.

 

John Groves

9 Years Ago

The list of instances when you would need a property release before reproducing a photograph for profit is very large, you should learn it before you have to talk to a lawyer.

 

Randy Pollard

9 Years Ago

Barb, Not a storefront but on the side of this store. Its has a buggy and all antiques signs all over the building.

 

Kim Bird

9 Years Ago

You gave your word. If you go back on your word you will not only be jeopardizing any business relationship you might have in the future with that store owner but also everyone she is likely to tell that you can't be trusted.

 

Chuck De La Rosa

9 Years Ago

The short answer to this is that for art prints, provided it was shot from public property in full view of anyone, you can do what you like with it.

However, you did give your word and that becomes an ethical issue more than a legal one.

 

James B Toy

9 Years Ago

What Chuck said.

You said you talked with a "clerk." Was she the owner or just an employee?

If you were on a public sidewalk, I can't help but wonder why a shopkeeper wouldn't want their store photographed. Must have a had a bad experience with someone else, maybe a bad review or something.

 

TG DEVORE

9 Years Ago

Randy the issue in our eyes here is about doing what you said you would do.

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

Thinking of why a store keeper wouldn't want their business photographed...

...gives the competition info about their prices and product mix.
...might show their business in a bad light --- some restaurants are now providing bloggers with professional food photographs so they can show their products in the best way possible.
...customers might get annoyed if they were included in the shot.
...they might change their pricing or sales at a future date and not want someone to use the photo to try to get a deal.
...they might change their decor, logo or something in the future and not want people thinking of their business as "dated"
...For personal use question might just be someone trying to ask if you are a reviewer or with a newspaper.

Of course not wanting someone taking a picture is different than being able to stop someone.

 

Connie Fox

9 Years Ago

Another issue is that a store-owner can be traumatized or hurt emotionally by photographers taking advantage. I had a situation in which I got a release from the owner, and she then poured out her story of photographers setting up tripods in front of her store without even asking--let alone getting a release. She didn't know the laws that cover these issues. All she knew was that it made her feel violated.

With a release, she invited me to photograph her entire farm, and I made a friend (plus a sale to someone she told). I think the right thing to do is simply go back and explain that the situation has changed and ask for a release. Technically you may not need it. But in terms of decorum, you will earn her respect and sleep better at night. It also helps make the rest of us look a little better. (See paragraph one.)

 

Janine Riley

9 Years Ago

If you gave your word - then you stand by it.
But why don't you.... print up a lovely copy - & take it to the store owner & show it to her. She may just love it - & want to sell copies in her store.
Or Greeting cards, or....

 

Jack Thompson

9 Years Ago

What you said was a knee jerk. I don't think you tried to deceive anyone. You were respectful by asking in the first place. I hope the photo turned out well and you can make some bucks. Was the clerk carrying a broom?

 

Bob Galka

9 Years Ago

Actually I don't see him anywhere "giving his word". He only answered a question. He is free to change his mind. There was no "promise"
At least from the information that we were given.

FAA required disclaimer ;O) I am not a copyright lawyer. The above is my opinion only.. there.. I'm safe now. ;O)

bob

 

Liz Snyder

9 Years Ago

So just go back and have a friend take the photo again and you're still a man of your word. Sounds like it's the type of situation anyone might photograph with the buggy and signs.

 

Randy Pollard

9 Years Ago

Janine, I was thinking about this, giving a nice print to the clerk or owner whoever it was. Then ask for a release.

And Jack, lol I don't know if she was but she could broom me out, if I didn't ask. I'm just being honest.

 

Barbara Leigh Art

9 Years Ago

To me this is about the principles of how u do business. If you want to be known as someone that honors your own words you absolutely need to go back and discuss it with the person you made a verbal agreement with.

 

Janine Riley

9 Years Ago

That would be a very nice touch.
Personally, I never would have considered asking.

Bob- that's a woman's prerogative . Lol. A man's word is like his handshake.

 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

Why would you need to ask permission of something that some one puts out there in the public domain? Why would you need a release on something that no one has any copyright claims on?

Why is it some sort breech of moral conduct simply because you changed your mind to do something you have a legal right to do with or without the permission?

I take pictures outside of stores all the time. No one has ever complained and I have plenty of store owners come out and chat with me because they love to talk about their antiques or flowers or what ever it is.

This falls squarely in the category of better to ask for forgiveness then permission. Especially when no permission was needed to begin with.

 

Carlos Stacy

9 Years Ago

Is this site public domain?

 

Janine Riley

9 Years Ago

I don't think there is anything improper to take an image of a storefront.

But Randy is asking.... because although he changed his mind ( or spoke too quickly ) he now obviously has some discomfort about it.

I would just go back & say - " You're going to love this...."

I imagine store owners would be proud. But if you're from a small town, & they are not.... you might consider what it is worth. Or not.

 

Carlos Stacy

9 Years Ago

While I think like this, if I went to a store and bought paint supplies, a canvas and painted a picture. Than sold the picture wasn't said art supplies personal use as well.

 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

@Carlos, I am assuming it is but only basing that on what I have read

As previously mentioned, there was promise made of contract let. A person has a right to change their mind without having to go beg permission to do something he has ever legal right to do with or without permission.

I think given the circumstance he answered the questions as honestly as he could. Then circumstances changed and he changed his mind. He has no obligation to go back an explain himself simply because permission was not needed in the first place.

 

Carlos Stacy

9 Years Ago

Yeah it's just a mortality issue. I was just being an ass with my first comment.:-),

 

Barb Yates

9 Years Ago

The way I understood this situation is this-
1) You were interested in photographing ITEMS/SIGNS that were on display outside, at an antique store.

2)You approached the person for permission, and "she" ask if for personal use? You replied YES.

3) "She" may not be the owner of the buggy, or the signs, as many of these antique stores have vendors that rent space, or sell there on consignment.

4) The signs, you mentioned in this thread replies, may be handmade by someone else, therefore "She" wouldn't be able to give you permission for anything BUT personal use.

5) If you didn't think there might be a problem, why would you have asked in the first place...?

6)Aside from all of the above, you agreed it was for personal use. Getting her to agree for profit sale, may be easier than you think, especially IF "She" owns the items, or has made the signs.

For example, when I paint a commissioned piece of a specific subject. I always make sure that my ref. photo, provided by the person ordering the commission, is owned by(which means in THIS case, a photo that the buyer has taken themselves) that person. If it was taken by ANYONE else, I would require a written release from that person, even for use for Reference for a commissioned painting. (I have refused many a commission because the "buyer" is unwilling or unable to give me the name of the photographer of the Ref. photo).
Once the buyer receives the painting, they only own the painting...they never own the rights to reproduce it in ANY way, without my written consent.
And to parallel this discussion, that would be the same for handmade signs, which I suspect these are, as you said they were all over the SIDE of the building.

If one of my paintings is on display somewhere, in public view, no one has the right to take pics of that painting w/o my written consent. Just because it is on public display doesn't circumvent copyright. Just my two cents, but it is ALWAYS best to keep your word, and err on the side of caution in these cases.

 

John Groves

9 Years Ago

Since the final manufacture of prints and such can now take place in the UK: Just to add a link to the UK gov copyright website, worth having a look to understand any things which might be different to the US gov attitude. (they both come under the Berne treaty, but I think the enforcement climate is a bit different).

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy.htm

 

Roy Erickson

9 Years Ago

I just love the way y'all talk around the question asked. Legally - I suppose, unless there were witnesses, it's your word against theirs. but ethically - you have to live with yourself - and " I " would have to ask why you asked the question to begin with, and once you said it was for "personal" use - " I " don't understand why you even posed this question - now I would question whether I should ever trust you or anything you say. Whether you needed to ask permission or not is now a moot point. The point is you gave your word - are you an honest person, your word is your bond, or are you dishonest, devious and will you say anything to get what you want. It doesn't matter what you've done with or to the photographs in question - you said personal use - that means "personal use" - which doesn't mean you can put them up on the internet, or in any situation and sell them.

 

Randy Pollard

9 Years Ago

I have to agree with you Philip its not for commercial use but for personal use. I don't see why I can't use the image here in FAA site. I just want to be clear about this and I attend to show the store what I attend to do and give them a free print.

 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

Is anyone else as surprised as I am that our most verbal street photographer has not weighed in on this?

I some times cringe with some of the things he says, but truth and accuracy are not one of them.

It would be interesting to hear him opine on the topic.

Hello, Robert? Got a minute? lol

 

Justin Green

9 Years Ago

If it was taken on public property (pavement, sidewalk, street etc), then its ok to sell as a print.

 

Randy Pollard

9 Years Ago

Justin, it was taken across the street, so how is this legal taken on public property? I think this discussion is very interesting.

 

Peter Tkacz

9 Years Ago

I'm thinking that there are a couple of things at play here. If coming to an agreement with some one, it's best to stick with the agreement, otherwise there will be a feeling of trust having been violated or compromised. If one needs to make or come to an agreement, it's best to do so with the right person. ...second, assuming that there isn't wrongful negative intent, if making use of a photograph for journalistic or artistic purposes, having been taken from public property, there shouldn't be an issue in the usage of the photograph, even if the other party does not agree with it. Without a model release though, the use of artwork for commercial purposes (or advertisement purposes) for profit, could and may result in repercussions... and is where the lawyer$ come in and get compensated for their hard work. Esp. if making an association of the artwork with a product. I'd suggest talking with some one in the legal profession over a drink, coffee or dinner to get the low down, and avoid future similar situations.

...Just thinking as I've written the above, it there's concern and you really find the shot interesting, and want to put it into print, go back and meet with the owner and let them know what you'd like to do creatively, I'm sure that they would probably not mind. If not, there are endless other possibilities, even if one initially can't visualize them.

ug, it's just after one in the morning, plus it's a Monday! :(

 

Donna Proctor

9 Years Ago

Perhaps when she said "personal use" she didn't have anything POD related in mind.
Maybe she wondered if it would be for a newspaper article, or magazine, etc....
I'll be interested to read what she said she meant if you ask her, when you go back to give her a photograph of the image. :)

 

Randy Pollard

9 Years Ago

Thanks Donna, I surely will.

 

This discussion is closed.