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Robert Frank Gabriel

9 Years Ago

If You Want To Be A Successful Artist...

Compare yourself with the great photographers/painters of yesterday and today. (The Internet is a treasure for viewing such images.)

I love looking at photographs/paintings so it’s a pleasure for me to learn from the masters.

Some say good advice is to copy the masters until you find your personal style. Even Shakespeare is said to have copied some plays and then reworked them in his own fantastic way!

What I tell FAA newbies when they ask us for a critique of their work....I tell them to research the great artists who do the type of work the newbie is doing....even if its frog photography, someone is a master of it (honestly). The Internet gives us access to all the great artists past and present.

If you are a still life photographer/painter, look at the great masters of this style. Be honest in your evaluation of your work and how it compares to the masters....

I am a street photographer. I still, to this moment, study the works of such greats as Winogrand, Arbus, Bresson, and many many others....

In my humble opinion, I would shy away from asking folks here for a critique simply because you may get some very bad advice (though well intentioned), and this bad advice might set you back some in your quest for excellence.

On a personal note, most of the advice I get concerning my street images, makes me laugh....hard....I am quite capable of comparing my images with those of the truly great in the field of photography. (Maybe it’s because I worked as a photo editor for over a decade!)
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Val Arie

9 Years Ago

Hi Robert, That is really great advice! Really can apply to anything if you want to improve skill. I love your street images...what a wonderful book they would make :)

I asked for a critique once only to find out I am not a photographer.

 

Robert Frank Gabriel

9 Years Ago

Val,
Thanks for responding. Yep, I will make a book of my street images in November...
I would not ask anyone for a critique of my work unless that person worked in the same subject matter with the same experiences (in my case street photography).
In my opinion, a photographer specializing in flowers or sunsets or some such would just not have the insight into the type of work I do.

Also, I would want to be able to talk to the person critiquing my work face to face. And I would want to see his/her work as well.

 

Val Arie

9 Years Ago

I am so glad Robert...was my first thought when I saw your work.

 

Kevin Callahan

9 Years Ago

Even Michelangelo used other artists sculptures to copy for his drawings to get a 3 D quality for the Sistine Chapel. His drawings, called cartoons back then were not drawn on the ceiling but transferred by his assistants using a wheel that poked through the paper then placed against the wall and poundednwithnanbag of blue chalk, leaving a dotted line on the plaster.

Copying the Masters is a good lesson for all.

 

Mike Savad

9 Years Ago

there is very little point in comparing yourself with the greats because:

1. some people think they are there already, even though they are totally not.
2. you don't know what they did to achieve the image

telling people to look at the masters won't help them at all. it's like trying to figure out why your cookies taste so bad by visiting a bakery. it would be far more helpful if the chef pointed out what is wrong so they can fix issues that way. simply telling them to use sugar instead of salt, and lowering the temp, may help a lot more than to do a self study.

if you look at a good still life you can never know that there may have been a half dozen lights around and under it to get that shot. you don't see the magic. yet you frustratingly try to make it and fail each time. as far as i'm concerned people are already trying to mimic what they see and failing. so you tell them why they are failing - and that's how you critique someone when they ask. tell them the good and the bad. otherwise the answer is worthless.

---Mike Savad

 

Georgia Fowler

9 Years Ago

I agree. If you want a critique you have to find someone who is doing the same style of photography or painting etc as you.

Henri Cartier-Bresson is one of my favourites, Robert!

 

Edward Fielding

9 Years Ago

To create great art, fill you head with great art. Study the composition, understand what the artist choose to include and what to exclude. Try to figure out why the piece draws you in. See the work "live". Go to museums, visit galleries, talk to artists.

We are subjected to so much junk these days via social media. Its like too much sugar for our visual memories.

 

Mike Savad

9 Years Ago

anyone with an artistic eye can give a critique. they don't have to be a photographer/artist of that particular genre. anyone can give an opinion that may help you. you don't need to see their work at all. there is no more validity comparing to someone else's work. if they are right then they are right.

---Mike Savad

 

Georgia Fowler

9 Years Ago

I guess it depends on what type of critique you want, a general one such as am I any good as an artist, or a more detailed and specific one, in which case I think it would be more advantageous to find someone who already is successful in a similar genre to yours.

 

Robert Frank Gabriel

9 Years Ago

Mr. Savad says..."anyone with an artistic eye can give a critique."

Yes they can. But is it worth a can of beans? The great film critics Ebert and Siskel critiqued movies and at times were almost violently at odds with each other's critique...

"Art criticism is considered by some to be an art within itself, but, although each art critique may approach a work of art uniquely, there is a defined protocol for the discipline of critiquing a work of art."

http://www.wikihow.com/Critique-Artwork



 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

"I asked for a critique once only to find out I am not a photographer."

Who ever told you that lied to you.

I have never seen a good critique in here that was worth anything beyond some technical value.

I also think that it is disingenuous of anyone to give advice about being a successful anything unless they themselves have been successful at what they are giving advice at.

I asked for a critique in here one time on two photos. I only did it because I thought people were being told things that no one should be telling people. And I was right.

I was told that neither image would ever sell and if they did, FAA would never print them What I had not told them was both images were images I had sold, printed and delivered multiply times.

 

Carolyn Weltman

9 Years Ago

I taught myself to paint by squaring off old Masters (particularly Vermeer) and copying them painstakingly. You'd be surprised what you can learn about how the artist painted what he or she created. I also find it really useful (but don't tell any guards on duty) to touch paintings done by the greats to see how they put the paint on the canvas. I agree, Edward, seeing work live is crucial. However, I often find the critiques in here a little pointless because many people become very subjective about my content and partly because many faa artists object to my work when I post in the discussions. I do listen to what others advise but then weigh it up to see if it is useful to me or not. Ewwwww is just not helpful or inspiring.

Robert, great topic of discussion and good luck with your book.

Mike, what is an artistic eye?

 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

Anyone can give an opinion. And usually it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

I can give you medical opinions or legal opinions all day long. That does not make me a doctor or a lawyer. But it may get you dead or in jail if you listen to me.


 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

" often find the critiques in here a little pointless because many people become very subjective about my content and partly because many faa artists object to my work "

"pointless" being the keyword! lol

The content of the work has nothing to do with the ability of the artist. Nothing what so ever.

But it happens all the time in the critiques in here as well as other places.

 

I have to agree. Solid, technical advice can help you progress by leaps and bounds.

On the opposite hand, asking personal critiques from strangers, in my opinion, is the most dangerous, and potentially creatively paralyzing thing anyone working in the creative arts can do. I shudder every time I see that request on any forum. I can't count the number of times I've sent a PM to someone saying, in effect -- 'Ignore the critiques you just received; those are only personal opinions. Just keep learning, trying, and moving forward.'

I've heard from newbies who have sold their cameras or put down their brushes, on the strength of negative, Stranger-Danger-Critiques. How does that serve anyone? It doesn't.

I'd sooner spill my own blood than ask for an open-forum critique. Not because I'm thin-skinned and can't take the heat; but because opinions are like . . . well, we all know what they're like -- and everybody's got one!

 

Mike Savad

9 Years Ago

its not whether it would sell or not. because people will buy anything if they like it. but one or two people is a small number. there are some images that look nice, and others that don't at all. its not artistic for example. just because you get a critique that they don't like it, doesn't mean someone else will.

an artistic eye is knowing intrinsically if an image is balanced, has good light, tells a story, has good color etc. you can tell by looking at that gallery. the amount of years make no difference. they could be doing it for a 100 years, but the images will look like snap shots or paint by number. the person with the eye - you can tell they have a better sense of balance. its hard to describe exactly.

you can learn a little by studying, but unless you know how they did it, it's kind of pointless. i've seen some terrible street photos, and i've seen some really good ones. the non artist will take the elements and shoot a photo with those elements, but it will still look terrible because they don't have the eye. they aren't seeing - what makes it good.

its like baking - you need a proper ratio of ingredients in a certain order to make the cake taste good. to a non baker, it may not make a difference what order the things go in, or the exact ratio of each thing. and it won't taste as good. that's where the difference is.

---Mike Savad

 

Mike Savad

9 Years Ago

i think in the end it really depends on sensitive you are, and what you expect to hear. if your asking strangers to rate the work - they may be totally right. your getting it from their mouths. but some may just want to be mean. you have to look at it and see if you agree. when i first started my method i had lots of people telling me it was no good. if i had listened to them, i wouldn't be here right now.

---Mike Savad

 

Marlene Burns

9 Years Ago

I'd agree with the statement if the word "successful" were replaced with "better."
There's no magical formula for success, any more than there is one definition that fits all for success.
Studying those who came before us is an integral part of our education...and in today's wonderful world of technology, there really is no excuse for leaving it out.

 

Jeffrey Campbell

9 Years Ago

Floyd, Mike.

If the two of you want to argue with one another (which has been quite apparent as of late), please use PM, ring one another on the phone, go Skype together, or use tin cans and 3000 miles worth of string.

Thank you.

 

Carolyn Weltman

9 Years Ago

I spent many years selling my work on the streets of New York. I think I heard just about everything out there. It certainly toughened me up and also made me understand that most critiques are very subjective and to be taken with the proverbial pinch of salt I love that so many people love my work, I am honoured and flattered. And in the end, it is up to me to continually challenge myself and dig deeper.

thanks Mike for your response.

 

Floyd Snyder

9 Years Ago

" I can't count the number of times I've sent a PM to someone saying, in effect -- 'Ignore the critiques you just received; those are only personal opinions. Just keep learning, trying, and moving forward.' "

This may be the best advice that some of these new people are ever going to get. Certainly better then 99.99% of the actual critiques they will get in here.

 

Val Arie

9 Years Ago

I still think to it is invaluable to seek the work of masters, no matter old or new, as it helps to evaluate your own work...to set something as a gold standard to improving your own work. I do it all the time...every time I see a great image. Mostly makes me delete stuff but I can't help but try to improve what I do that way.

But I also think a good, or properly done critique is also invaluable in assessing ones own work and improving upon it. What art school is about in so many ways.

@ Floyd I should have said I take that with a grain of salt or two. I have learned so my here from critiques, not just mine but others as well, And you are right about subjective answers...not all critiques are worthwhile... something about separating the chaff from the grain?

 

HW Kateley

9 Years Ago

I agree with the OP that studying what others have achieved is very important. And I do think it's far more functional than listening to just any feedback/review/critique.

That's not to say no one has anything valuable to say, but you really have to be careful who to listen to. It's your work, your art, your vision, not that of someone else. People can be and often are wrong with respect to their views of another persons stuff. In some ways it's like religion. one persons answer is not anothers.

So, if someone gives you feedback, it's good to be open minded enough to consider what they said, but it's also important to be confident enough to summarily reject what you don't agree with and don't look back on that decision without good reason.

 

Mike Savad

9 Years Ago

i'm not arguing with floyd, i didn't even respond to him.

another way of saying an artistic eye is - matching your clothes. someone with no fashion sense will match anything with anything. and sending someone to look at someone with fashion taste - won't make a bit of difference, because they won't know what they are looking at. if you tell them that purple socks don't go with that outfit, or stripes and checkers don't go together and you tell them what does. its far more useful advice.

the problem with threads like these are - there so many people here to tell us how others should critique an image, and those same people aren't the ones who ever critique anything when asked.


---Mike Savad

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Mario Carta

9 Years Ago

@Robert I appreciate this type of thread, it's really why I'm hear, for hearing the different responses of artist, looking for that candid moment where someone says something that would never have occurred to me. I learn more from seeing than hearing, so I do take all critiques as Carolyn so well stated, "like the proverbial pinch of salt". This method Robert you suggest I think is very sound, and one I have been doing. Not to long ago an faa member sent me an email telling me about how much my sculptures reminded him of an artist I quite honestly was unfamiliar with, his comments made me very curious to look up the artist, I was very surprised and became very intrigued by the artist's work, the artist was a Swiss/Italian Sculptor and Painter Alberto Giacometti, here is a quote from this artist: "I've been fifty thousand times to the Louvre. I have copied everything in drawing, trying to understand."

 

Mike Savad

9 Years Ago

i know i'm good because i know. simple as that. everyone learns differently. i never much saw the point in copying another artist. while i have a few parodies, in the end it doesn't matter if you know your good, if you think you are, you are. and if you did it on your own, all the better.

---Mike Savad

 

Rick Al

9 Years Ago

If You Want To Be A Successful Artist...

Find a niche.

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

I don't agree with mr Sergei Bongart.But I don't belive your a true artist before you have your own style of painting,you may buildt upon other masters talent,but still it must to be your own work.In europe an artist and an illustrator are not the same,I'n the US both are artist's.So many figurativ works of art look more like illustrations then a work of a master.You may be a master of illustration,but that's not the same as a classical figurativ master.So in europe you have illustrator's and artist's.No one today paint traditional like the old masters,well you have Odd Nerdrum.He is one of the few in the world with the skill of the old masters.

 

Louise Reeves

9 Years Ago

"I guess art school is a little like my real estate law professor. "

Not the right one. And it is just that sort of presumptuous notion that keeps people from exploring. There will always be people stuck in their small ways of thinking, like your professor. But law is not art and very few of the art teachers and mentors I have had through the years would ever be that closed minded.

 

Mario Carta

9 Years Ago

Louise, I am not advocating education is bad, rather that in today's world where so much information is available, on can pretty much educate them selves and further focus on specialized information to further ones specific goals vs having to learn so much other stuff that is required to get the degree in formal education. So I don't think my example was just a presumptuous notion, but rather a real life example where if I followed the excepted wisdom, and not bucked the system a little bit, I would have short changed myself a significant amount of money.

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

This is a hard question?If everyone did art the same way,It would be very hard to become a successful artist.We would only see the work of the greatest masters.Like I't has been in classical art.Now the doors are open,everyone can become an artist,that makes art more creative and for many,more interesting.But we will never see again a Mozart,Da Vinci,Michelangelo.You will maybe have a new Rotkho.But as great artist as he was.He will never in history be as big as The great old masters of art.When you win something you loose something.

 

Mario Carta

9 Years Ago

If artist of the past failed to deviate from the excepted norms, and in some cases it was serious business breaking from the norms then art would never have evolved to what it is today.I don't think those artist that defied the norms of the day learned it in a classroom.

 

Stanislav Killer

9 Years Ago

"Now the doors are open,everyone can become an artist,that makes art more creative and for many,more interesting."

funny how nobody mentioned ancient art, all styles (not techniques) are as old as neolith, nothing new since then

 

Louise Reeves

9 Years Ago

"I don't think those artist that defied the norms of the day learned it in a classroom."

Some did and some went on to teach.
Picasso, the son of an art teacher, went to a couple of different art academies (although he was not a good student). Chagall went to school to learn to draw. Rembrandt apprenticed with 3 different artists before opening his own school.
What the best do is learn and then fly. Talent is nothing if one doesn't know how to utilize it to its best potential. Mentoring, going to school, apprenticing all feed the talent.

 

Lisa Kaiser

9 Years Ago

uh...I went to school and majored in art, (dance, music and painting), but I really needed a job. After six years of art school and never wanting to take science and math, I got a job in science because it paid the bills. Hmmm, does school help your art? I dunno, you all tell me. I might be ignorant, but school was...FUN! You should learn because it's fun and enjoyable. Tomorrow I have a three hour class and I'll be tested after that three hours. I'm nervous, but it's so much fun to pack a lot of information in the brain. So stop feeling the negative and find the love of learning. Take a class, be the worst in that class, make others laugh and try your best. Life is really good when you're learning. Art classes are great for old people. Also one thing I see with some personalities on this site is the rigid need to know everything...I wonder why that is, could it be due to low self esteem? Caution, art classes are hard as hell, give me algebra and chemistry any day.

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

I dunno if that's true.I think most of the time it was because of religious way's of thinking was diffrent from country to country, like Spain and Holland .Holland was a more "free" nation in the baroque so the style of art became more free.And much because of the french revolution the modern world of art was born.But the very brave impressionist's. change the world of art .Most of all Cezanne,now we all look at art in a more creative way.I am very happy its a more creative art world,but I still think the great artist's are not making the money they deserve.Like in west Europe the state gives money to art.But not figurative art if it looks traditional.The craft is not important.

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

Picasso was not a good student?

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

I remember an art prof. said to me:If you want to paint abstract art,never learn figurative painting, It will destroy everything!

 

Jim Taylor

9 Years Ago

The self taught verses school is always a question. Why does it matter? There are great artists on both sides. It is all about the individual path. If you went to school and you or your parents spent a lot of money you are for that. If you are self taught then you think you did not need it and did things your way.
Great artists on both sides make it obvious. It is mostly about the individual. You can’t compare it with the old masters either since they did not have you tube and a thousand other things that are available today.

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

Jim Taylor I agree It dosen't matter!

But I believe that the old masters knew more then we know about the craft.

 

Jim Taylor

9 Years Ago

Yes Robert no way am I going to deny anything about the old masters. They did not have all the distractions and clutter we have.

 

Dan Turner

9 Years Ago

Lisa -- beautiful post! Good luck on your test.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

 

Louise Reeves

9 Years Ago

"Picasso was not a good student?"
According to his bio, no, but not in the sense that he couldn't do the work, more that he didn't want to, disliking the formal instruction.

"I remember an art prof. said to me:If you want to paint abstract art,never learn figurative painting, It will destroy everything!"
That was his opinion, but there's no basis in fact for it. Picasso was a figure painter first before delving into cubism and abstract. You have to at least try different disciplines to find your niche and understanding what goes into one or the other, in my opinion and from what I've gotten out of my own instructors, allows you to approach whatever style, medium or technique with that understanding that you might not get otherwise. .

One of my friends is a well known escorche and anatomy art professor who has taught at Disney but his paintings are primitive and whimsical, having nothing to do with what he's known for.

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

Hi Louise

The reason why he said it was because : When you know figurative art you will Think to much when you paint abstract, and not be free to paint from your subconcsious-mind.So some think Its more interesting to see what you don't know,then what you know.

 

Louise Reeves

9 Years Ago

" Life is really good when you're learning. Art classes are great for old people."

I was 49 when I went back to school. Is that considered old? And there were a few older than me. Interestingly enough, there were many talented young people who quit early on-they just didn't care enough to stick it out. Us old folks were there every class every week.

 

Guy Roberts

9 Years Ago

I haven't read every post on this thread, but the initial discussion seemed to be on the value of studying 'masters' to improve and the value or lack thereof of critique.
I think that there is benefit to be had from both.
Certainly studying a painting or photograph that you like and is recognised as excellent, and trying to see how things like the composition, framing, subject matter and lighting are handled and then trying to incorporate these elements, or some if them, into your own photograph will help you to improve IMO.
As for critique, it depends on the person doing the critique and the purpose of it.
I will ask my wife her opinion of my shots to find out what she sees as visually appealing, and sometimes she will point out an element within a photograph that she dislikes. If I agree I will alter to suite.
But I agree also that valuable critique tends to come from persons much better than me, and a lot can be learned not just from critiques of my work but of the work of others.
Just look at Mark Muench's 'Muench University' on Smugmug for some excellent critiquing. He has done a couple of mine and it was pure gold for me.

 

Marlene Burns

9 Years Ago

Lisa, good luck on your test!
And i agree....learning is fun....it's a childish attitude that school is oppressive. i'd kill (mebbe) to be back in university where could experience any subject matter i wished...it was all there for the taking!
I hope to teach AND be a student for the rest of my life!

 

Robert Frank Gabriel

9 Years Ago

Here is a painter who made many millions studying the Masters of Art.

"Wolfgang Beltracchi is a name you may never have heard before. Very few people have. But his paintings have brought him millions and millions of dollars in a career that spanned nearly 40 years. They have made their way into museums, galleries, and private collections all over the world. What makes him a story for us is that all his paintings are fakes. And what makes him an unusual forger is that he didn’t copy the paintings of great artists, but created new works which he imagined the artist might have painted or which might have gotten lost. Connoisseurs and dealers acknowledge that Beltracchi is the most successful art forger of our time -- perhaps of all time. Brilliant not only as a painter, but as a conman of epic proportions."

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

Beltracchi! Yes,but I don't think he can fake a Velasquez or Rubens

 

Jess Williams

9 Years Ago

Studying other works (from masters or any other artists) has great value because it expands your scope and can potentially help with technique. (And for me, it's inspiring).

On the subject of critique ... I stopped asking for critiques a few years ago because they weren't helping me improve.

Technique -- this is the area I try to focus on, not whether or not someone "gets" what I am trying to do and then picks it apart as if they understand my vision.

Two of my most recent and most favorite photographs really highlight my growth as an artist. When I showed them to my husband, he said he didn't really like them because they are not "his style". I value his opinion, but he can't "critique" my work (and he tried!) because he doesn't really know what I am aiming for.

The technique has improved and the artistic vision was met. I'm the best person to judge those two criteria, so I don't want an outsider's critique.

Now, if I asked all of you if you LIKED my work, that's something else entirely. ;)

Jess

 

Carolyn Weltman

9 Years Ago

@ Robert Wagner, have you ever taken a look at Jackson Pollocks figurative drawings? they are as brilliant as his abstracts. i'm not sure your professor was correct and i'm not understanding why he or she would have said that. did your professor explain?

RFG Beltracchi is brilliant

 

Robert Wagner

9 Years Ago

As I see it.Jackson Pollock's "Autumne rythme" Is brilliant! What I think is a deep and interesting feeling of" autumne rythme" But I have read that his fellow students and teachers at art school did not think he was good at drawing,looking back you can say they where wrong.I don't think you need to be good at drawing to make a beautiful artwork and having skill at drawing don't make you a great artist.I am not sure I think Jackson Pollock was a very skilled painter or at drawing,but he was interesting,and I think Autumne rythme is one of the most beautiful artwork in the world! But If you try to copy a Jackson Pollock you might make it look the same but It's not the same artwork,if you copy a Rembrandt or Velasquez It wont look the same and wont be the same.Because the old masters are so hard to copy,the skill level is crazy impresiv.One can use there whole life learning to paint a hand like Rembrandt.

We can all argue what is skill and what is not.I'm not interested.

Much of modern art and how we look at it,comes from Immanuel Kant "Critique of Judgment ".Critique of feelings and of the human mindset. And we see it how we build in architecture,buildings are big block's of stone or glass.It tell's us of order and structure,almost like a religion.But a religion without feelings! I think modern buildings can be beautiful but to say its as skilled as a building maybe by Michelangelo or some great master,one don't know how creative they where(I think) Beauty use to be as important as Truth and friendship.And they used nature to understand beauty because nature talked about God.I'm sorry We don't have to agree but I think no stone block or glass house can be as beautful or interesting as one singel rose.

Have a nice day:)

 

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