Starving Artist Vs. Stressed Out Salesperson

Don't quit your day job. There are some that manage to make in the thousands per month, as high as $10,000 from what I've heard.

To do that you need something really unique or a following. I've been doing photography essentially 100% of the time for the last 3 or so years. It took around 8 months and 500+ images for the first sale. Now any given month can range from $0.00 to as high as $1,000.

I just shoot, post, enter photo contests outside FAA and not a whole lot of other marketing. Like you my job was driving me crazy and I knew it but hung in for a few extra years to be able to walk away for a while (4.5 years on the road so far).

In a nutshell you need to be well known and already have customers when you sign up or have really good/unique work to ramp up and sell a lot quickly. Otherwise its a loooong slow road. Keep on shooting, keep on learning, keep improving your photography, keep working on editing images to tweak them and you'll start to sell at some point.

I'm not sure if photography will ever provide enough income to live on but I'm not giving up for another year or two.

Its a long tough road, Kathleen but who knows, maybe its possible to go from zero to sustainable income.

Hi Kathleen,
Well certainly people do make a living on FAA but selling art is always going to be more about being a salesman than an artists. But any profession is a long road if you don't get access to teaching and networking. Most communities will have art guilds which are an excellent place to star making contact with other artists and locating some mentoring in showing you the ropes. Just watching professionals work will help you more than you can imagine.

What do you think is causing the anxiety? If it's financial worries this might not be the best choice, because very few artists are financially secure from their art; but more importantly most artists weren't looking for financial security from their art. Probably for most people your financial potential is much more assured in your non-artistic talents and skills.

-- mary ellen anderson

Hi Mary Ellen
I guess if there is one thing I do I have it's experience in it is sales. I have been trained in sales by one of the largest companies in the country. Because of this I am pretty good at networking and knowing how to market myself. So I guess that gives me a small advantage. As for your question about about the anxiety. Its not so much the financial goals that worry me. For the last three years that I have done it I have always been able to live comfortably on my salary. It's more the monthly sales quotas my company sets. Most of the time it is extremely hard to reach these goals. They set goals that are almost unattainable and I guess I feel morally conflicted at times. I see some of my coworkers doing whatever they possibly can to make a sale profitable. When I really don't want to be that person. It bothers me that I some times get angry at a person for not buying something off of me. Even though I know their reasons are perfectly legitimate. I don't like feeling like that. I put far to much pressure on myself but I insist on selling with integrity. So I guess thats were most of it comes from and also seeing people I know that don't sell with integrity perform better in numbers then I do. That is very hard. My company tries to limit that but still it happens. I've always been a friendly people person so I feel like doing a sales in a different atmosphere is something I would thrive at but I feel that I've doing my current position for far to long. I am extremely burnt out.

Thanks for commenting adam
I figured this would be a long road. I guess I have to find something that makes myself different from the rest. The whole reason why I joined the website in the first place. I had won a couple of small online photography contest. Nothing big. All of the pictures I actually shot with my iPhone. My mother (knowing how much I hate my job) sent me an article about an artist. He was entirely self taught and he produced the most amazing images of ocean waves I've ever seen. I told myself if he can do it why can't I? I went out and bought my very first dslr the next day. I'm not planning on quiting my job any time soon. I am not that dumb but I feel like until it happens I will be forever dreaming about it.
Thank you both for your advice I really do appreciate it.

Oh and also my cousins husband is a very well known artist in the city I live in. So far I've wanted to keep our relationship on more of a personal level but I guess asking him for help and mentoring might not be a bad thing to do. I don't know??? I just don't like mixing family business with professional.

For mosts artists/photographers the biggest constraint and the hardest thing to do is sales. Most of the photographers I run into who actually do pay the bills with it seem to spend 80% or more if their time selling and marketing.

Some do portraits, weddings and related things to bring in enough cash. Very often those who have some sort of gallery to sell prints focus on a specific area of the country and run local photo tours.

It can be easier to get people to part with $1,000 if they can go home with their own experience and accompanying photos rather than a couple large prints.

I just ran into an artist who morphed from art as a passion to an art teacher then to offering complete design services so she sells her work as part of an overall interior design business.

Lots of what sells on here is not necessarily spectacular photography but it's generally technically good (sharp, in focus). An average photographer with good sales skills will probably sell 10x more than a great photographer that lacks either the desire or skills to promote and sell their work.

As for your cousins husband, it wouldn't hurt to ask. It doesn't have to be any formal business arrangement. He might be delighted to offer some insight and guidance on the art business.

With my sales figures - I don't have many suggestions for you - but - IF i were in your shoes, and I'm not, I would watch what kind of images do sell - not to do what they do or copy what they do - but to get a feel for what it appears that buyers are buying. Ordinary can sell - if it's an extraordinary image. If you have good marketing skills - you can sell fish oil back to the fish - which doesn't mean you should - just means you could. None of this is a comment on your images - which need to be more in numbers, JMHO about all this from a guy who can't market fish oil.

Kathleen welcome! What everyone else said. There is nothing better that I would like than to sit and do artwork all day long....some days that is all I do :) but unfortunately that in itself will sell nothing for me. Marketing is probably 75% of the battle. Also remember that this is a print on demand site and no marketing is done for you. So your marketing skills will not only come in handy but are necessary.

Somewhere a while back there was a thread that talked about this...one of the thousands that asked this same question and what I got out of it was this: Awesome Artwork + Awesome Marketing Skills + A Bit of Luck - combined with a very large portfolio will = Sales! Someone else posted something that was close to this : 10,000 images + 1,000,000 views + 10 years will = Sales! The answer probably lies in there somewhere :)

Don't quit the day job, as Adam said but perhaps the actual act of doing your art will relieve some of the stress of your day job. It definitely does for me...I can lose myself in the art and totally forget my day job.

Kathleen, I'm sure some do very well here, and other online sites as well, but I feel it wont last much longer. People that were here a few years ago, and did what marketing needed to be done, and have at least decent art did very well. Now that technology has changed so much , and everyone is a photographer, selling anything taken with a digital device, these types of sites will be over-run sooner than you think. I would bet the same people that were the highest sellers from a few years back have stats that are moving down.
If these sites keep taking anyone and everyone "they" will make a killing in the short term, but that will also be their doom.

i would say about 90% of people here are self taught. i never went to school

i currently live on the salary here and other places. this is my job. if this place folded, i'm not sure what the next step is, but i have ideas, that i don't want to touch unless i have too. until POD's came out art was never a well paying field unless you met that right someone and can sell stuff for high prices at galleries. or you were very out going and can sell the the masses that way.

starving artist was a real term, and still is for many.

to start with you need to:

develop a style - in otherwords, at a glance i need to know its your stuff because it all has that flavor.
the images should be unique and interesting. if they look common, then anyone with a camera can take them, and if that's the case the buyer is thinking the same thing.
you should have a bio to tell us about the work you specialize in.
you should have more work, and also not be all over the place with the stuff you post. you need themes.


many people are under the impression that art is easy, and fun, and stress free. but working for myself, i have 15 hour days, working 7 days a week. your mind can only be creative for so long or it will burn out. it takes a while to light the fire again. art is a job like any other. you have to make things people want, and place it in many stores, and tell people about it. it could take years to get known. if your getting panic attacks, find a different line of work, art should be a hobby unless you start selling like crazy, or your forced to use this as your job.

because outside the work force you need to pay your own insurance, taxes, and other things. you save on gas money, cafeteria costs, and idiotic birthday collections, so that's always good. the boss to employee meetings are always uncomfortable when you work for yourself. though the dress code is pretty relaxed so that's good.

---Mike Savad

it was never confirmed but i think that $10,000 were for event photographers. its the only thing that would make sense to me.


i see your from chicago - get pictures of chicago. you can find flowers, squirrels and dogs everywhere. but you can only get images of chicago there. get it at night, dusk, dawn, winter, summer, shots of the city and the like. people are far more interested in towns then they are the other things.

keep in mind that the sales page isn't always an accurate representation of what sells, since the artist can buy it themselves and it will end up on there. and just because it sells once doesn't mean it will sell again.


another thing i can say about selling is - it's not at all consistent. you might make XXX this month, but next it might only be X. you can only look at the whole year, which is a pain. after a while, once you get a style that people like, other people will advertise your work when they discover an image and want to show it off.

---Mike Savad

It takes a very long time to develop a career of any sort, and an art career is near the bottom of the revenue stream. If you wanted to open a business selling roof shingles as a sideline, people would still advise you to keep your day job. That being said, it can be done.

Jumping in too soon on any new endeavor is a recipe for disaster. You are already in a profession that has some carry over skills that should help you with an art career. But you have to take the time to develop your art, create a brand for yourself, and with any luck build a revenue stream.

You have to set long term, realistic goals. Create targets, and head for those. Once you start building your art business, there will come a time when you reach a tipping point, and it will make more sense to leave your day job because you are making more money creating art. A lot of artists take the approach of all-in. The belief is that if they just commit to their art, success will come. That's good for awhile, until the rent is due. Also, taking your time to learn all you can is a great way to shore up you chances for success.

You may never reach the loft goal of becoming a household name, but you could actually make a living selling art.

-YoPedro

Kathleen, I think there is a lot of great advice above. One of the questions anyone looking at "making a living" from art has to ask is, what is a good living?

What do you need in a month to pay mortgage/rent, food, utilities. Do you want to spend money on dinners out, movies, or cable tv etc. are there other living expenses?

Some of these questions involve lifestyle...if you can't make that money are you willing to give some of these things up?

Once you have a number in mind you can try to come up with a working plan. IMO that plan needs to involve sales in the real world with real people...not just PODS. Also, probobly multiple PODS...Not just FAA (even though it is my favorite) too. Your skills from you current job can DEFINITELY help on this. Joining local art guilds can help...and just cold calls to stores that carry products that might match the type of work you do could help. But to do these you probobly need to have real products to show. Doing some live art fairs may be an option...there is a big cost up front but it will allow you a venue to give out buisness cards, see real peoples reaction to your work, get an email list of prospective clients together and as a bonus...have products that you can then try to market with local vendors of your choice.

All,of these things take time. Can you come up with a 5 year plan, a 3 year plan and a 1 year plan...and then very specific attainable goals within that 1 year plan. Can you do this while working your current job? Can you cut back on spending now so you have savings for if and when this plan comes to be?

One more question...since you are a photographer, are you willing to do portraits, weddings, advertising, stock, etc...or do you just want to sell art. The freelance artists and musicians that make full time careers from their work do anything in or even close to there field to make a living from it...some aren't willing to sacrifice some of their artistic vision...either choice is ok...but you need to know where you fit.

These are just some of the hard questions that would come up if this was your full time job....it's the reason I and many others here do it on the side. With that said, having these plans in place may make it possible for some of us down the road to make that transition.

One final thought...life is too short to spend constantly stressed....if it's possible (and I know it's hard) don't worry about the how's and the whys of the other people at work...you can't change it. Look at yourself, do things the way you think you should and don't look at the comparisons! And if it still bothers you, look for a different job that gets you away from that stressful environment. The job is there to pay the bills and allow you to do what you want with the rest of your time.

Just my 2 cents!
Matt

I would suggest looking for a new job. Most artists only make supplemental income from their art, the rest has to come from somewhere else. Being good with sales is a very marketable skill, and it can help you get your foot in the door of almost any industry. Why not see if you can get a sales job in an art related field?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tortured artist is a stock character and real-life stereotype who is in constant torment due to frustrations with art and other people. Tortured artists feel alienated and misunderstood due to the perceived ignorance or neglect of others who do not understand nor support them and the things they feel are important. They sometimes smoke, experience sexual frustration and recurring heartbreak, and generally appear overwhelmed by their own emotions and inner conflicts. They are often mocked in popular culture for "thinking too much", being quixotic, or coming across as pretentiously averse to happiness and fun. Other stereotypical traits vary between extremes – from being narcissistic and extroverted to being self-loathing and introverted. Tortured artists are often self-destructive in behavior and are generally associated with mental health issues such as substance abuse, personality disorders, or depression. Tortured artists are often prone to self-mutilation and have a high rate of suicide.

Wow, Kathleen, when I read your post it read like something I could have written myself. I went through a period a couple of months ago when I had zero time for my art and it made me depressed and anxious. Besides being my passion, art is an emotional outlet for me and a great stress reliever.

I too am self taught and I love looking through my gallery and seeing how I've grown. I also wish I had the time and money to go to art school, but that's not an option.

Something I did do is join our local art league. We meet once a month and I always participate in the critique where I learn so many things. Later in the evening an artist does a demo and that is another great learning opportunity.

What educational opportunities are available to you that would not require you giving up your job? I better there are lots of classes and groups to which you can belong. Find your niche, Mike is right about the squirrels. Chicago is a ' target rich environment'. Start shooting!

Mike your comment is interesting. I guess I just thought that people would need images of everything and the more I could upload the better. But your right about Chicago. I should probably set the city as my main focus and work my way from there. I never thought about it till now but I do live very close to an area of the city that is starting to boom with local artist It seems like galleries are starting to appear more and more in the area. There is an art center that is blocks away from my house. I am going to see if I can take advantage of that and look into taking classes there. Thank you all for your wonderful advice!!!

Actually April what you said just hit me like a brick wall. I'm going to see if I can maybe get a position in one of galleries near here doing sales! I don't know if they would hire some one like me with no art experience but 6 years in sales. It's worth a try. Thank you!!!

Outlets like FAA are ok, but it is always best if you go to your local's galleries, and get involved. Make sure you do art shows, if you want a living out of it. It may be one of the hardest jobs you have ever done, but it is possible as long as your more than just another online artist. Online artist can make some extra cash though it is slow. It really is up to what you want and how you go after it. Public affairs will always beat out online sales.

Kathleen,
Whether it's real family or just the local art guild, it's going to be like working with family. It's in the nature of who we are as artists and people. There are really very few artists that aren't receptive to mentoring a young artists. It makes us feel like we actually know something - lol. So as someone who has worked in a family business all my life I can tell you some general rules.
1. Everything is Dutch and there is no borrowing available - don't ask.
2. You clean up your own messes, and can't ever leave them wait.
3. You stay loyal and committed even when they are wrong or you don't get your way.

That's about it, but believe me it's far from non-stressful - lol.
-- mary ellen anderson

Kathleen - anxiety is your body's way of saying "Somethin' ain't quite right " .
Heed that warning , it'll cost your health if you keep letting it go.

Yes, April is spot on. You are well trained , & very good at meeting sales quotas & also networking.
You love Photography.
Go sell cameras.

people can take pictures of anything they want. and because of that you will see fast just just how many people have squirrels, flowers, dogs, etc. more isn't better, because the buyer can take it themselves.

when you go to those galleries pay attention to what they have for sale and the level of quality - and - the size. you can't get really large images with a cell phone, no matter how good they get. also keep in mind - that the stuff you have, do you have it hanging in your own house anywhere? if you don't or couldn't think of where it would be placed, that may be a reason why they may not sell.

---Mike Savad

I'm so happy to hear that, Kathleen! And I don't see why they wouldn't hire you. Not many artists are good salespeople, myself included. If I could afford to have a good salesperson market my artwork for me, I would do it in a heartbeat. Anything they need to know about my work they could ask me, and I'm sure it would be the same marketing artwork for a gallery. Or, like Janine suggested, you could get a job selling cameras and other photo equipment. That would probably give you great access to photography groups and classes in the area, discounts on equipment, etc. There really are so many options available to you in this field, you don't have to be stuck doing a job you hate.

Good luck to you! Keep us posted. :)

Or...in case You have some other great skills...do something else...something calm that will bring You comfort and pay Your bills...so You could enjoy making art...photography with no stress...one step at the time...:)

Your rate of sales depends slightly on how much ass you can kiss. This is especially true in the painters world.

I see the most plain, simple garbage being propped up in galleries in Toronto and being sold on Saatchi and some truly divine work not getting attention. The most basic abstract compositions or minimalist trash etc. or even just very mediocre art.


If you market a turd well enough, it will sell!

[ SEE- Andy Warhol, Tracey Emin, Jeff Koons, Thomas Kinkade ]

^Thomas Kinkade was easily the best artist of those you listed. The man could actually paint rather well. I think it was his subject matter - primarily fuzzy-wuzzy little cottages - that puts some people off. But his art made people feel comforted and enchanted when they viewed it. What's so wrong with that?

It's people like Koons and Warhol who put ME off, and especially their patrons. People who pay millions for splats on canvas, and stolen sculptures (Koons is a notorious thief), just to influence art trends and therefore make their mark on the world, are people who have more money than is good for them, and for art.

But I digress. Kathleen, like you, I have a "day job" I dislike very much, one that has given me carpal tunnel in both hands (makes it REAL fun to draw). I'd give anything to be able to quit it and make my full living with my art, instead of just a few sales now and then. I'm working on it, but sometimes I think it will never happen.

Thanks again everyone I haven't had a chance to check out any galleries yet but I did a brief search online today and found out that a popular photo stock website is hiring for account managers in Chicago. Minus the education I am qualified for the position. So I'm going to send in my resume.
On a side note. I took a 15 mile bike ride around the city tonight. I took some pictures of mostly just popular landmarks. In all honesty I don't even care if they came out well or not. It was relaxing and fun. I could literally do that everyday if I had the time. Thanks mike you were the one that inspired me to do it. I've been trying to think all day of what kind of style I could use that would reflect my personality best. I think its going to take me a little bit of time to come up with that one. So I guess we will see :)

Hope everyone has a good night!!!

I would ask the family member for help and advise.
You generally find that people are only to glad to pass on any wisdom they they have to help out friends and family.
You could maybe call them and say I need some help on a subject and invite them round for meal/drinks to talk it through

I am going to agree and disagree with some of the advice above.

First, I did make a living off art photography for a while with 95% of my income coming from this site. Of course making a "living" is a relative term and most certainly it wasn't a good living because of my expenses but it paid the rent and food bills. (This old joke comes to mind: What do you call an artist that just brokeup with their boyfriend/girlfriend? Homeless.)

I agree with Mike that dogs/cats, squirrels and flowers are extremely common place. IF you want to sell them they had better be something John Q cannot shoot with his own IPhone. Even if you have the best flower shot ever done, you still have to compete against the other ten million flower shots out there and it is a TOUGH sell. I put up a few florals but sales are relatively rare and I have a following at this point. Not saying it can’t be done but it is difficult at best.

I disagree that Chicago at large is a great subject to generate sales. OK, not quite true as it is a good subject but your known Chicago landmarks are an extremely saturated market. You are trying to compete head to head with people that have been shooting for years and have hundreds or thousands of Chicago images. This is more true of things like the Sears Tower or the Bean and things everyone with a camera that has ever visited Chicago is required by law to shoot or paint.

On the flip side, the image below has potential. Why? It transcends various markets and there simply isn’t a lot of competition. It is not just marketable to residents who know the place but has potential with any redhead or redhead fan in the country that has a bar or rec area in their house. Now, you didn’t ask for a critique but this image has some issues that hurt its marketability. Both the bottle top and the sign at the bottom need to be edited out of the image.


I play in the NYC market which is similarly saturated. My Brooklyn Bridge images can hold their own but yet they rarely sell. On the flip side, I make good money on other NYC scenes that are not shot/painted to death. I have no doubts that would work for Chicago as well. You also have various markets around you that are simply underserved. Dekalb is one example. How many alum have fond memories of their college years at Northern IL? I am sure there are more than a few. Yet, there are very few images of that area so it is a VERY underserved market. Underserved markets accounted for the vast majority of my online sales early on and they still account for a good amount of my monthly income from art. (See my Abilene Theory here. http://fineartamerica.com/showmessages.php?messageid=970972 )

Lastly, I disagree with even approaching galleries in your area right now. (As an artist anyway Sales person would be a good start.) Give it a little time and get really good first and then it is an iffy proposition. Galleries cost a LOT to play in. Gallery level wall art is expensive. They will take between 40-60% of your retail. You have to price HIGH to make a profit and you only make a profit IF it sells. If it doesn’t, you just spent a grand or more on art to hang in your living room. Your have a 20 inch print marked up at 20 bucks. My latest pricing on that size is $125. My retail price here ~$230, is still not enough to be profitable in a gallery. Let’s say I put a 20 inch acrylic in a gallery. That acrylic print cost me $105 bucks NOT including what it actually cost to produce the image. Keep in mind the gallery is going to take 50% of the retail and it is MY art so I want my gross pay to be the same as the gallery’s AND I would like to make money on my work. In order to walk away with $125 I have to price that 20 inch print at $520. That is a LOT of money for a 20 inch image. You have to ask yourself, are you at a point yet that your work will garner that?

Now, even if you answered no, that doesn’t mean you can’t get there from here. You CAN. Your portfolio this very minute looks a LOT like mine when I started trying to sell art. I didn’t sell enough to cover the tent and space rentals at first but I learned what didn’t sell. I experimented with subjects AND improved my own skill set until I was selling. Frankly, I am amazed when someone pays over a grand for a single piece of my art but they do on occasion and I regularly sell things in the $500 apiece range. It CAN be done but it doesn’t happen overnight and it isn’t easy but if you set your mind to it AND stay with it, it can happen.

Kathleen, are you talking about Getty

Just another thought for you about Chicago. I teach and run personal photo tours called Chicago Photography Tours. I teach both new and advanced photographers how to shoot at night or during the day by a lot of the hotspot landmarks in Millennium, the River, Buckingham Fountain and others.
http://surrealimaging.com/workshop/9222/chicago-photography-tours

Kathleen, I have a concern that I personally think you should address before you put more time into marketing your art. You used two terms that are alarming, anxiety and panic attack. I'm quite familiar with these things. I suffer from anxiety and panic attacks. I left a very stressful job some years back. I walked away from a lot of vacation and 25% of my income. It was one of the best moves I have ever made, and it may have saved my life. What I'm saying is first, go see your doctor. There are some things that can be done short term to help. Second, start looking for a different job. No job is worth compromising your health or your life. Once you get that squared away you'll be able focus your spare time on your art.

I'm glad that JC jumped in with his Abilene Theory, I was thinking of that reading through this thread. I've used that same theory with my stock images since 1992, and now with my art photography, you can get a better grip on it with this book " Sell and Resell Your Photos " by Rohn Engh. Find it at your library.

Also, Kathleen, if it would be encouragement to you, when you entered your photography in the contest for my group avatar for Chicagoland Art Gallery Group I hoped that one of your images entered would make the cut. By the way, what JC said about Dekalb is exactly why I named the group 'Chicagoland' and not 'Chicago' proper.

You have a very good eye and you just need to find your voice, as you said.

mostly i'm saying that chicago has a better chance at selling then flowers or squirrels. by comparison there will be less. and depending on style, they may prefer yours to others. NY - lots of that, i sell that though. same with other large cities. they have to like the style.

---Mike Savad

I was actually kind of thinking that last night as I was riding around. While I definitely enjoyed my ride last night. I must've noticed at least 5 different people with tripods and so many tourist snapping photos. I think I would really have to have a much different style then most to attract any kind of attention.
I am a huge music lover. I would love to be able to use music as a main theme behind my images but the problem is with the exception of my boyfriends band. I don't really have a lot I can photograph regularly. I feel like it would take years to develop an online portfolio. I typically go to a lot of concerts and I have a lot of musician friends but still. I don't feel like it would be enough. I wish I bought my camera years ago. I've been to over a 100+ concerts. Some of the shows I've seen or people would make for some pretty interesting images. As for the squirrel. I got the point. Haha. I will remove him as soon as I get some more free time. Also Dekalb is actually an interesting idea. My brother goes to school there now. So I visit pretty often. Frank thank you very much for the compliment. I did read your email plan on emailing you later on tonight when I get some more time. I'm working all day. Don't have much time to post.

Kathleen, I am so sorry to hear about the anxiety and panic attacks. While I don't believe I have had panic attacks, I have had anxiety, perhaps come close to panic. And certainly I can relate to and tie that into the context of a 'day job' -- I've worked corporate in the past for years and years, to pay the bills and all, and it's NOT me. I have done it -- usually 2-3 yr stints until I can't 'fake' it / deal with it anymore -- off and on for years, so can empathize with where you're at.

I think any road that is less traveled is going to be difficult, regardless. And it'll mean giving up some comforts, possibly having to realign a LOT of priorities. And it's probably going to be incredibly scary -- so, anxiety may not go away in some ways, regarding making big life changes and facing fears, but, anxiety could be removed in terms of moving more towards what you really want to be doing in life, more actualization of self.

Anyway good luck. I think most people can understand and relate.

I'd agree regarding not quitting the day job, UNLESS you have an alternative lined up that will get you some consistent, even if not a lot, of income coming in. However, I didn't follow that advice. lol.