The Art Of Pricing Art

I place what price I want to receive. Don't use software or the like.

I price my work bases on the history of my sales and how many years I been doing, exhibit and selling it. No artist or their works alike so I would not use a software for pricing.

How much I want - what I think the art is worth - cost of material, and size - time (never forget time) = price of art.

Iris,

Fotoquote is excellent software. In fact, in speaking with a copyright attorney, the software is the guidelines the Federal courts reference in copyright cases.

Jeffrey, I did not know that about the Federal courts thanks for pointing this out. I love the software for many reason. It keeps my paperwork in order, is great to create estimate and invoices fast. Cradog the creator keeps on top of the industry.

That's also good to know the software sets a precedence for copyright laws. I'll definitely have to look into that! Being new to selling photography, I really don't have much to go on for sales. Thanks for creating this discussion Iris, it will certainly help us newbies.

I agree as an industry we need a professional standard for many reason. The internet opened artists market to the whole world. People around the globe will need to communicate with each other understanding the industry language and code.

Here is another great link helping artist and buyers creating a language easy to understand and follow
http://fineartamerica.com/showmessages.php?messageid=2051023

"I agree as an industry we need a professional standard for many reason" Art is not an "industry" that has standards - perhaps the POD business is - but art - is very subjective and value varies by way too many notches - size, material used to create it, paint, oil, acrylic, watercolor - etc, the kind of ground it's on . . . How would you ever set a standard - you mean for the same size 'painting' I should get the same amount of money as Pollock, Picasso, or what a Rembrandt goes for.

I agree and don't agree. Due to commercial art there is a standard. However, due to the lack of business education in art school and of the public there is little known knowledge among most artists when it comes to how to price art,creating and writing artist contracts terms and conditions.

Why should a living artist not be compensated as well as those from the past? Gallery owners use to take artist under there wings back in those days and buy their paintings way before they reached their artistic prime. They knew that in order to create master artist they needed to support the artist in their journey. Somewhere along the way that stopped.

Don't artist have families to feed,bills to pay, art to create? It takes fair compensation to create masters of the arts.

Compensation depends on "skill" and desirability of the work - as well as the quality of the material - place also affects pricing. Artists, 2 and 3 dimension, aren't plumbers or carpenters nor electricians with standards required by "law" or rules.

Off course not Roy. That said artists need to make a living just like other trades. There is something wrong that art should only gain value ones the artist has passed away. Lets celebrate the art and the artists while they still can enjoy the appreciation and fruit of their labor.

We are getting off the topic however. I started this topic for artist to share how they build their fee structure for their art and for artist to want to learn how to build their artist business and price their art. For me Fotobiz has been a wonderful tool http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/ . I am not getting compensated to say or promote this software.

I also learned from asking other artist who have been in the business of art full time.

I received an e-mail from FAA that as artist we can set out own terms and conditions. I missed that feature.

I apologize - wasn't meaning to get off topic - it's just that pricing ones art has been a question as long as I've been creating art to sell - about 40 years now - and there are all kinds of methods - by the square inch, time it took to complete, size, reputation of the artist. but it is all subjective. An artist to say the least needs to make a living - IF that is the artists 'work' in life, if this is just a 'hobby' and the artist earns a living from something else - at the least it should be recuperating the cost of material, if not being remunerated as well for the time to create the art. The value of art, what it's worth, is totally driven by what a 'collector'/buyer is willing to pay for it. It's sort of a balancing act of what the artist needs and what a buyer will pay. How an individual artist determines that - strictly up to the artist - could be just a WAG, or some determinate method the artist chooses - by the square inch for example. If there is a program that will help an artist figure it out - and the artist is satisfied that it is OK - then, go that way.

Being dead doesn't always add value to the art. I'm sure there are many dead artists whose work was not that well accepted in their life and is valued now only in so far as whoever owns it is willing to hang it and look at it.

It helps to know if we are discussing commercial art or fine art. Each has it's own set of rules, markets and many layers of pricing.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

No apology required Roy. You make very valid points which are part of the pricing artist need to educate them self about. Cost of producing the art, cost of living, the value the art brings to the table etc.

From my own experience clients want to understand how artist come to the numbers. It shows that we are professionals when we can explain why the cost of art is what it is. The time to figure them out is before the client comes to you.

How do you determine what to charge for a given art piece?

Each person can specify if they are talking about fine art and/or commercial usage. Since FAA offers them all we can all benefit from either way of determining art prices.

I hope everyone starts their week off with a blast. Lets continue our conversation on pricing art. I started this discussion for seasoned and fresh artist alike. The business of art is an art in itself.

Fine art
Commercial art

What has worked for you?
What did not?
Mistakes artist make?

Hmmm, interesting comments. As a relatively new photographer and digital artist, relatively new to FAA, having NEVER sold a piece and new to even thinking of selling my photographs, I'm not sure how valuable my input would be. Of course, that won't stop me from chiming in anyway! ;)

So, with that said, I tend to side with those who believe the value of art is almost completely subjective and varied, based on so many variables as to make it difficult or impossible to apply any kind of formula to it. Some of the more obvious variables are the fame (or lack thereof) of the artist, the specific market into which they are attempting to sell, the intended purpose for the art (high-end home decor, average home decor, addition to an art collection, commercial decor, commissioned work, and commercial purposes such as advertising, to name a few). But there are many other variables such as technical quality of the piece, size, emotional quality of the piece, type such as painting, photograph, sculpture, and on and on. Given all those variables and many more I didn't mention (or couldn't even think of), how can a formula possibly be applied to price a piece?

Now, I'm guessing that many of us here are not wildly famous artists and some of us (me!) have never sold a single piece. My very un-scientific method when I posted my images was to look around on FAA at pieces similar to mine, check out their prices and, based on that information, set up a default pricing structure that seemed realistic. I didn't want my prices to be so low as to indicate that my work was not worth much. I didn't want my prices to be so high as to deter any possibility of sales in the short term. I certainly may have failed in those goals, since I haven't sold anything since I got here in March of this year. However, with the literally MILLIONS of selections on FAA, I think it could take some time before people find my work, so I'm being patient and doing my best to learn how to make my photographs better and how to expand my marketing efforts. There's so much to learn!

Alternatively, if I was peddling my prints to a tourist shop or restaurant here in town (Sarasota, FL), I think I would need to set my prices commensurate with other similar pieces sold in tourist locations; but the same piece peddled to a gallery here would probably be priced higher.

Whew! Lots of words and really not much said, I guess. But I appreciate the topic and the opportunity to see what others have to say on this subject.

Susan

There certainly is an art to pricing art!

This piece is priced at 1 cent

And the original for this is $1,000,000


Make of that what you will!

When it comes to fine art prints I started to sell "in person" (at art shows and galleries) long before doing it online. So I had to do some research - what other artists (specifically photographers) charge for their work at these venues. I judged their quality, popularity, media and sizes against what I had, and eventually came up with pricing that I thought was consistent with the market in my area.
My online prices are very close to my "brick and mortar" prices. I don't see why they should be any different. Perhaps it's different when you're selling online only. I recently received an email from a potential buyer saying that he was looking to purchase several of my prints but my prices were almost double compared to some other artists. I did a search for the subject he was interested in and found that some prices on the first page were indeed quite a bit lower. My first thought was - OMG - I've got to lower my prices! But then I quickly realized that I would also have to lower them on my own website and also in the galleries. Latter would mean that I'd be losing money selling my work after paying gallery commission.
So it really all depends on where you sell and what your market is. Don't need software for that - just do some leg (or finger) work and use your head.

Yikes!!

"I agree as an industry we need a professional standard for many reason."

Be careful what you wish for! The last thing we need is for regulations or standards that the government can then come in and impose them on people. Next thing you know there will be unions trying to set uniformed prices based on size or some crazy thing. Or how about standards based on seniority like Unions do.

Let't keep the standardization and regulations out of the business.

People have been getting it done for a few thousand years with out standards. Let' see if can go another few thousands.

Nobody is talking about government regulation, but don't be fooled people are regulating art and it is not the artist. As artist we owe it to ourself to figure out how to price out art. Nobody but ourself has to know how we come to the final number but we have to have that number in our head. One we know we will not stray below. It is so easy to fall for the other guy charges less panic attack. Guess what there is always the other guy charging less and even nothing. You can not compete on price. Using a business tool to help you keep track of expenses, time, and customers does not make you a lesser artist. It simply helps being organized and leaves more time to create art.

If you simply match the other guys price how do you know what you leave on the table? The other guy might just have flipped a coin.

"I agree as an industry we need a professional standard for many reason."
"Nobody is talking about government regulation, but don't be fooled people are regulating art and it is not the artist."

That, in and of itself is a form of regulation. And when you get a group or organization together that starts setting prices, you can bet all you are worth the government is going to stick their nose in.

Are you too young to member "Fair Trade" and what happened to that?

A lot of people are going to see standardization the same as price fixing. I am not saying it is, but as soon as you get any significant numbers built up, you are going to have some consumer group, some politician thinking they can make something out of it... .you can bet they will try.

Please tell us who these people are that are regulating art? That would be interesting information to share.

Floyd, not sure why talking art and money seem to be a dirty word. I have been in the art business for a very long time. When I first entered the industry I was shocked how little information and help I found to price my work. I was equally shocked how many artist loose money due to poor paperwork and or theft by clients who refuse to pay their bills.

Nobody is talking price fixing. It is illegal and would get us into hot water before we click the return key. There is corporate price fixing where artist are dictated too how much they will be compensated. It too is illegal. I would like to see the day a end comes to this negative part of the art business.

I started this conversation to find a way for artist to help other artist price their work. When a fellow artist ask you to mentor him/her and help them figure out how to run an artist business, do you simply turn them away and tell them you just have to figure it out on your own? Or do you remember how it was when you just started and give them advise?


Back to the topic: The art of pricing art
I titled the topic purposely this way because unlike mass produced products art is organic in nature.

Business is not organic, accountant set up the system not artists; it takes skill, organization and can have legal implication if not done right. Keeping good books,track of expenses,writing estimate, billing and taxes are all part of any business. As a full time artist you can't get around this.

Than there is the artist who keeps his full time job and sells art on the site. He/she too needs to have a handle on pricing. First to cover their own cost of creating art. Considering the art industry as a whole. Does the time and money invested justify the income derived from that art. Would you be better of gifting your art to friends and family than providing low cost art and not getting compensated to unknown corporation.

So what do you tell the fellow artist on how to come to a $$$ amount for his/her art?

There are several calculators to understand the cost of doing business, here is one of them. A good start to find those numbers:
http://asmp.org/content/codb-calculator#.U_SPm45UiRI

Here is another fun cost of living calculator. Where do you see yourself as an artist in 10 years.
http://nymag.com/guides/money/2006/23500/

A good article:

Understanding the Art of Pricing Your Photography: by Deborah Kaufman:

http://currentphotographer.com/understanding-the-art-of-pricing-your-photography-by-deborah-kaufman/


--Donna Proctor

The art of pricing art ..... well. I look at what income I need - not want - to make a living for 50 weeks of the year ( less two weeks vacation ). Then figure what I need to price my photography ( how many photo shoots, how many prints at what commision, etc ) to meet that need. I then figure out each year who my audience will primarily be and what that market will bare to invest in my photography ( what I will price my work ). My mission is to make photography that is meaningful to humanity that creates goodness and hope, with the by-product of financial compensation. So to do this, it is important for me to know what it costs to be in the photography business. Many times photographers will look at what other photographers charge, however, every photographer has a different cost of living, etc. So, again, you need to charge what it costs to be in business and adjust the pricing to make this happen. This to me is the art of pricing art.

Thanks Donna great article. It rings very true from my own experience; a few years ago I was hired to create work for a client. That year he wanted more work than ever before. When it came to paying his bill he had his attorney send me a letter that he only would pay 1/3 of his bill. The letter stated that he was very happy with my work, he simply did not want to pay the full bill. I had to hire my own and the client defense was the economy is bad. Only due to the fact that I registered with the copyright office was I able to get paid for my work. Had I not had a good paper train ie estimate,terms and condition and my art work registered I would have a great loss of income that year.

"Floyd, not sure why talking art and money seem to be a dirty word. I have been in the art business for a very long time."

I never said talking money is a dirty word. In fact it is my favorite subject. You mentioned standardization, I didn't. I am against establishing standards of any kind in the art business.especially when it comes to the money. Maybe I misunderstood you, but when you mentioned standards, I envision some sort of organized effort to try to set prices according to what ever guidelines that were set by who ever is going to try to come up those standards.

I have been in the business for 43 years. I used to turn away artist simply because their art was not expensive enough. I have several print dealerships where I will not handle some of their artists because their prices are too low.

Every artist has to price their own work according to where they feel they are in their career, in the market place and of course their costs.

I know artists that only turn out two or three paintings a year. The labor over painting for months sometimes over a year. Others crank out one a week. How do you standardize that? You can't and shouldn't even try.

If you really want to see what the industry is doing, you have to look at the industry as a whole, way beyond FAA and what is going on here.

There are huge publishing houses and retailers out there that combined are selling millions more prints then FAA is. If you want to see some sort of standard they are already out there.

See the response I made in another thread: Pricing Your Artwork http://fineartamerica.com/blogs/pricing-your-artwork.html

Floyd, it is so easy to get ones wire crossed in text. No by standard I was more talking about language. Every profession has its own and by using the same vocabulary the terms and conditions will be clear. It does not matter where you live. This site was created to address this http://www.useplus.com/

There is so many ways to price art and it is good to read what others have done. What worked for them might not work for you. Or you get such a great tip you wonder why you have not thought of it. It is good to compare how we came up with our formula without giving real numbers. I get the pricing question so often that I created pages for my websites to answer them faster. I would have appreciate the heads up when I was young. I am love art and artist and want to see every one doing well and making a living with what they love to do. Paying it forward

I was/am hesitant to get into the discussion of pricing because it has always been the absolute hardest part of photography for me. A lot of people seem to agree because of the number of pricing threads that come up here. No one that I can find has ever said, "Here is my pricing method." Or, "I start out at such and such price." Mike Savad gave a great piece of advice many times in pricing greeting cards saying if you offer them, you need to consider them 5X7 prints and not greeting cards. I'm slowly going through and reconsidering what I want to offer as a greeting card at all while at the same time marketing some actual greeting cards. The actual greeting cards are priced as such with a reminder to the prospective buyer that it would be cheaper to buy a pack of 10 or 25.

OK, back to pricing. I've just spent some time comparing my prices on some prints to those of others. I have tried to compare apples to apples. Photography, obviously, but also locales or specific trains. I have been told that my prices are actually too low on my bigger prints, but I have also found that they are higher than anyone else seeling the same thing. Mind you, the search was not exhaustive. I won't post the images so as to not name and shame, but one photographer has a shot of the Norfolk & Western steam engine #1218 under steam at 40 dollars for a 30X30. I can't compare anything I have because this engine has not run since 1994 making it pretty rare. Most of the other shots of it on FAA are on display in Roanoke. My comparable shot of the Southern steam engine #630 from two years ago (mind you, mine is digital and noise free, his is scanned, a little grainy but entirely more historical than mine) is a 20X30 at 95 dollars. I looked up another shot of the #630 under recently sold and this guy lists his 20X30 at $148. His shot and mine are compareable in style and quality. Mind you, none of my #630 shots have sold. (Though I did make a little off a copyright vio on that one, but that's another story.)

So I decided to go to the Gervais Streeet Bridge here in Columbia -- not literally -- as it is a big seller for the area. I found someone had taken fireworks shots from under the bridge and after kicking myself repeatedly for not thinking about that, looked at his prices. A 20X30 of a big selling bridge shot is listed for #35. A shot from a photog whose work I admire greatly is priced 90 dollars at 20X30. I had mine priced at 81 dollars when it sold, but have since raised it to 95 dollars for tht size. Walter Holland, if you're reading this, I know you sold a shot of the same bridge, but I didn't compare prices to you since you're an active member of the forum.

If anyone is still reading this, I'm not sure what I learned by the price comparisons other than some folks are seriously undermining themselves -- in my opinion -- with their prices. As I've gone up on pricing, I've had this nagging feeling that I'm still low at the high end of the sizes, which are typically my better sellers. But part of me also thinks that maybe I'm near where I should be. Still another part of me is not sure comparing prices is such a wise move to begin with.

Now I have to price compare photography collages.

Joseph, that is exactly why a software like Fotobiz is a great tool. The maker of the software keeps his fingertips on our industry and has wonderful advise and coaching on how to price ones art: http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/
Nobody wants to leave money on the table. But where do artist learn to run an artist business? The schools teach the bare minimum accounting and maybe some broad business 101. Many times not even relating to the art industry but being very general.

This is also where indirect price fixing comes into place. I don't know how many times have I am been told our publication only pays this much only to find out other artist have successfully been paid the compensation they thought. When we see low prices on art market sites why do artist feel we need to match them? My best come back for the statement above is "Your rate is below the rate I am charging can we meet half somewhere in between" Most all the time I am able to negotiate a higher fee. I am not afraid to walk away from a deal if it is not beneficial for myself.

Now I'm starting to think there *should& be consideration given to coming up with some standard of pricing among photographers. I don't mean hard and fast rules and certainly nothing regulated, but I found several train on a bridge shots similar to one I sold ($81 for a 20X30) priced for 30 dollars. I kept looking around to find pricing more akin to mine... and instead found a 20X30 at $13.

Joseph this is because those artist don't understand how to price art. They see the $10 poster in the store and believe adding $2 will make them money. No consideration what it takes to create the art and the cost of doing business. If we help artist to learn how to run an artist business we are helping our own business. I would have loved being mentored and still would.

Iris;

You're right that no one really teaches this stuff, not that I can find anywhere. It has been a learning process for me, to say the least. The art of negotiation is new to me, admittedly, but like you, I am not afraid to walk away from a deal that does not work for me if we can't meet somewhere I am comfortable at. I'm still not sold on the software aspect though. I suspect these folks who are seriously underselling their work can't imagine that someone would pay more for a photograph of a train, in most of the cases I am looking at.

I used this software way back because I did not know where to start on pricing and the older artist did not give me guidance. The software has evolved and changed in a real business tool. How many you use those accounting softwares? Fotobiz not only has the pricing part which I use as a guide it has the estimating, invoice templates and terms and condition right build in. Furthermore it keeps track of my contacts and customer. A small price to pay. I have tried other software but never felt it gave me as much for the money. Remember I am not getting paid to say this I just find fotobiz a great tool. I have been using it almost as long as I had Photoshop. If you need help with pricing Fotoquote/fotobiz are money well spend. When I look at other tools I have my money invested in and fotobiz and how many times I use it, it comes to pennies a day.

Hi Iris,

I wrote a blog post about two months ago, in hopes of providing some basic pricing guidelines for new photographers.

How Much Should You Charge For Your Artwork

I'm probably one of the last people that should be telling anyone how to do their marketing and pricing better because a year ago, I was ready to throw in the towel. But I came here and started reading the forums and taking it all in. I'm just floored at some of the prices I am finding. One thing a lot of them have in common is that the accounts seem to be a little stale, as if they set up an account, dumped some pictures in over a week or two and then got frustrated with the lack of views.

Thanks for the link again Jeffrey, I may have missed it the first time, but it's bookmarked now.

As much as I believe in standard pricing, I strongly believe it will never happen. It's why the business model of FAA works so well. Read this timeless article http://www.danheller.com/truisms.html

We keep coming back to standard pricing. That would never be my goal and only hurt our industry. I would say a standard understanding of the business is more accurate.
If artist know what it cost to create art that would make a great difference.
• Using a cost of business calculators for instant. I am not sure if those free tools are being used by artist. Simply take the time and go through this exercise of knowing this number, this basic business knowledge would go a long way.
• Knowing the art industry terms and condition. Learning how to read an artist contract what to look out for and knowing yes you can and should cross out terms you do not agree with.

Full time 9-5 worker who do art on the site and don't rely on its income would benefit. Just because it is not your bread and butter does not mean you need to leave money on the table. People are waking up that only a few can make money from the $1 per images sites being compensated less than $0.30 per image after all is done and said. The accounting headache alone is not worth submitting your work. Never mind the wear and tear on your computer equipment. Let's not forget the cost to produce the art. In the end you are paying them to use your art. The internet is a wonderful place and opened up a world wide art market. Let's keep it a market where artist make money and not turn it into a grab and run.

It's important to recognize that artists will create art for free. Then they give it away, either for the exposure or because they simply don't create art for money.

Making quality images is getting easier, and so is sharing them with the world. The vast majority of people uploading millions of photos daily are not professionals and have little interest in selling their work. Which means: Businesses seeking existing images will be paying less and less for them.

Buyers won't pay more for art that they perceive to be the same as other, lower-priced art. They will pay more for different, if different is what they want or need. Different seldom refers to the art, different means branding or relationships. If you build an audience for your work, you'll never have to worry about what others are charging.

The other path to higher prices is creating custom work specifically for clients/customers, i.e. art that doesn't exist until they order it and you create it. There again, branding and relationships play a key role in how much you are able to charge.

The more you price from a chart of comparable prices or "industry standards", the less custom you are and the more your work -- and you -- are seen as an interchangeable commodity.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

You don't have to be a pro to be an artist I agree. That does not mean every image uploaded stands up to the professional quality people have become to know. Custom art is assignment work nothing new. It is amazing how the industry is going back where it came from. Yes branding and marketing is part of the package but the sole of the art is still the artist. Lets not forget that, artist are not a commodity.

" That does not mean every image uploaded stands up to the professional quality people have become to know."

As determined by who? The people that I care rather my art "stands up to" are the buyers. I couldn't care less about anyone else and neither should any one else when trying to sell you work. If you entering juried shows, that is an entire different game. But when it comes to selling, the buyer is the only judge. NO ONE ELSE.

"Lets not forget that, artist are not a commodity."

No, but art prints are a commodity.

If people need guidance on how to price their work, all they have to do is get outside FAA and see what the real world is doing. The market is huge, millions and millions of prints of which FAA is only a tiny, tiny part of.

Read my blog: Pricing Your Artwork http://fineartamerica.com/blogs/pricing-your-artwork.html

Interesting discussion as pricing is very difficult and quality and esthetics are certainly subjective. I can't say what another persons art is worth but I can tell you I've seen some very nice pieces of work sell for "cheap" which hurts all who have wonderful work to offer. FAA is a great site and have been very happy with print quality, framing and shipping as it's first class. However, a buyer has to wade through a lot of very amateurish work to get to the cream. Once a buyer gets to that cream I'd hope that the artist isn't so hungry to sell but has the worth to believe in his or her work and place a value which represents that worth. Photography has entered the fine art realm and we need to stand by our work and realize it has value beyond more that just recognition.

"Photography has entered the fine art realm"

Photography is being devalued on a daily basis. It's just too easy for anyone to take quality images. I used to search stock sites for hours to locate the right images for projects. Now it's minutes. The selection has never been better and prices have never been lower.

True fine art photography is still rare, and will remain rare. It takes high-level skills to produce it. High-priced fine art photography is rarer still.

The photographers making consistent big bucks are shooting commercial assignments for large clients.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

One reason I am recommending Fotobiz is to help artists price their work. There is no reason to guess. The software is priced well for everyone who is serious about their art to invest in it. There is just no excuse to not have the right tools to be an educated artist. Each of us have the responsibility to the art industry. We all know what happen when people take jobs below what we like to get paid. I see retired people entering the workforce taking jobs for wages way lower most working family households can work for to support their families; because they don't have the kids, health insurance etc to consider. It is bringing down all the incomes of working families. Not a good thing. The same happens to art when artist sell their work for very low. Micro stock has ruined a very viable stock art industry.

As a buyer I would appreciate editing to ensure quality work. There should never be an instant where the quality is not high enough for print. Perhaps a ranking system might work like the stars on products we see on other large distribution sites. The collections are one way to help buyers find quality work but also leave out a lot wonderful art. A peer to peer rating could work as well.

The 25 image free accounts most likely part of the problem. Serious artist create far greater bodies of work. I trial period for a paid account would attract the serious artist and keep the low quality amateur work at bay. A more time consuming option would be taking those 25 image portfolios and have them qualify and approved before they are accepted to become part of the greater collection.

First of all, I contend that once a work of art is put up for sale it becomes COMMERCIAL ART

And once you put your stuff out there, you're just another guy in a crowd crying out, "LOOK at Me!, LOOK at Me!"

And once they see your stuff it becomes, " BUY!, BUY!"

It won't take long to determine whether your work pass muster.

If your art can command high prices, More Power to you......But if you find yourself kowtowing to prospective buyers, I suggest you make some changes: 1. The selling venue, 2. the pricing and possibly: 3. the work itself

I've made a living for the last 40 years solely by the fruits of my Eye and Hand by deciding to sell where people are, pricing my work for those that want my work, not for only those that can afford my work.

Since I create only originals, not reproducibles, the pricing of each piece is an individual.decision

My pricing formula considers the actual or apparent complexity of a piece. But that is never the prime factor.

How I like a piece, trumps all.

"The 25 image free accounts most likely part of the problem."

Some of the people that have 25 or less images get very high prices and they are some of the best artist and best sellers.

Blaming these people for everything wrong with FAA seems to be a favorite pastime of people here.

That is like saying Hyundai is the reason Mercedes is not selling more automobiles.

They are not even a tiny part of the problem any more then anyone else here is. That is why they call it free enterprise and fee markets.

No one has the right to tell anyone else that they have no right to be in the marketplace or they are part of the problem for selling what they are selling for the price they are selling it for.

Art, like any other product, is a supply and demand problem until you become well knowen or famous enough to get beyond the decor market, which is what FAA is. There is simply a glut of product on the market place. Telling other people they are the problem is not a legitimate way of competing in the market place.

Just logged back on this morning and decided to look at the first print that came up... It was a 60" print which sold for $320. Take a look at what the profit margin is on that image as in my opinion these are the people who drag down this sight and are anxious to sell for small profit margins and ego which hurt all on FAA. The program referred to may be good for a commercial studio or portrait studio as overhead has to be taken into consideration including equipment, studio, utilities, etc. However, I'll bet most here are your home type amateur who now can create and have fun with their digital cameras and the new software coming out. As a photographer who made a great living for 40 years and still have my 5000 sq. ft. studio leased to another photographer no one knows better than I the nut I had to make to make a profit. I knew my nut but never priced my work on overhead plus profit. I priced on the value I brought to the customer depending on the type of work that was asked of me. So major advertising, a two day job or a 10 day catalog shoot, were priced differently on the type of work required but the client could never look up anywhere what those costs could be as they liked my work and what I was asking they were willing to pay. Nicely enough they came back. I would bet there is an extremely small percentage of people here who make a living at photography and really don't even take their home overhead into consideration as it's a fun and interesting hobby and because they are now trying to sell they can call themselves professionals but have outside jobs paying the rent. Nothing wrong with this as it's a change of the times with again the digital revolution and I remember my days starting around 10 when I put in at our home my own darkroom and was fascinated by photography. It definitely became a passion at that time that eventually drew me to a wonderful way for me to make a living. This new era has allowed many talented people to express themselves and most on their spare time making a second business in fine art. This has flooded the fine art industry with wonderful new images and more so flooded it with OK images to mediocre. If you go to the art departments such as a Home Goods or Target you'll find wonderful images for decorating your home for $14 to $60 all framed and many are not small images but quite large. The price of that 60" print I referred to at the beginning of my rant here is over $200 on most mediums. Place a value on it, mark it up and you can't compete. So again, the digital world has changed the shape of professional photography in all aspects and not for the good in the fine art direction as it's flooded the market with cheap images and with people who call themselves professionals who have sold an image or two for a small price. FAA seems to be doing great and offers a great service, but they are making the money, not us.Good for them it's business and they created a really good one. Regardless of who is selling here, I'll bet they are all having fun doing it. However, don't get frustrated if you don't make a living at it as that's doubtful regardless of how you price your images.

Let me ask a question of all of those that think the "lessor quality" art should be driven off FAA.

How many of you are driving Bentley or Mercedes automobiles? After all they are arguably the highest quality automobiles on the market.

How many of you are driving Chevrolets, Fords, Volkswagens, Hyundais and any lessor quality automobiles?

Why is it that you support these lessor quality car makers?

Whey is that you think that you should have the right to buy a lessor quality car, but no one should have the right to buy lessor quality art?

The vast, huge, humongous number of people out there just flat do no care how good your art is. They only care that they like what they see and that it goes well with their drapes.

There are a lot more Chevrolet, Ford and "other" care buyers out there then Bentley or Mercedes buyers. And you can not do anything about.

You drive all of those Chevrolet art buyers away from FAA they will simply go somewhere else and buy it. They are not going to automatically step up and buy Bentley or Mercedes art.

Floyd, I don't say that the free account stop or take sales away. I am saying that serious buyers do have to ward through a lot of work which is not stellar. The buying experience is very important to keep buyers coming back to FAA

Are there valid solutions to ensure the quality of the art on FAA is monitored?

Off course no one has the right to tell anyone what to charge. That is against the law. But knowing what undercutting the market does is every artist responsibility to understand. There will always be someone who will do it for free and at a $ loss.

By educating ourself and each other we raise the bar.

What you just described is free markets at work.

Everyone has to decide where in the market place they want to be and then go out and figure out how to enter that market.

If an artist wants to be in the high end market, then they maybe need to better evaluate the choice they make before they join any online selling facility. But the idea of joining something and then trying to yank it around to something that it was never intended to be seems like the hard way to do things. It is also disingenuous as fare as I am concerned.

FAA is what it is. It is what Sean wants it to be. Everyone is here at "his" pleasure, not at the pleasure of the other members. Putting down the free accounts or any other member by calling them part of the problem is out of line, imho.

Peter;

I'm sorry. Youneed to find your Enter key a time or two. I seriously cannot get past "I'll bet most here are your home type amateur who now can create and have fun with their digital cameras ..." before it becomes impossible for me to keep reading. Maybe it's a me issue. Really, I don't think you need to put anyone down here to build yourself up and that sounds like what you're doing. I don't like the low pricing some people use here, but in the final analysis, there is nothing I can do about it. People talk about competition here and in some ways, I see it. I'm in somewhat of a competitin with people in my area and people who shoot trains.

But, really, I'm in competition with myself mostly. I need to be better today than I was yesterday and still better tomorrow than today. Being that photography is so subjective and people will like what they like, I don't know that I am in competitin with anyone else. Now I may see the work of someone who shoots similiar things and think he or she is good at what they do and, in fact, think I may could strive to be more like them. But a prospective buyer may come by and think my blue trains would look good with the color of his wall in his man cave. Therefore, not competition in the traditional sense that I can see.

And, by the way, I drive a Chevorlet because it's comfortbale, gets decent gas mileage, looks pretty decent and I can afford it. Apples and oranges, Floyd.

"Are there valid solutions to ensure the quality of the art on FAA is monitored?"

Read this line in case you missed it above: "FAA is what it is. It is what Sean wants it to be. Everyone is here at "his" pleasure, not at the pleasure of the other members. Putting down the free accounts or any other member by calling them part of the problem is out of line, imho."

FAA is NOT a juried web site, it never was and never was intended to be and my guess never will be. If you do not want to be associated with these lesser quality images, then you may be in the wrong place.

"Off course no one has the right to tell anyone what to charge. That is against the law. But knowing what undercutting the market does is every artist responsibility to understand. There will always be someone who will do it for free and at a $ loss. "

That is double speak if I ever heard it. That is exactly what you are trying to do.

"By educating ourself and each other we raise the bar."

More double speak. You mean educate "them". Educate them to what? What to charge for their art work? That don't belong here? lol

Did you ever stop to think the they know exactly what they are doing and not need to be educated? And they are very likely NOT going to want to be educated by people that think they are "most likely part of the problem" or have no business being here.

The market place is never the problem, it is just the market place. If you can't compete in it, you can't turn around and start looking at the competition and blaming them.

Joseph C, I agree with everything you said until the "apples and oranges". lol

Really, that far off? Your not even going to give me maybe just a little credit towards making my point?

Okay, it may be a too large of a stretch to make. lol

I have a feeling that if one's work would show up on the top of the search engine all this sound and fury about "Quality" would signify nothing.

I agree Roger.

I also think that people were advertising their own images and their own AW and not relying on the FAA/Google search it would all be a moot point.

Those "part of the problem" people and the ones "dragging this site down" don't show up on anyone's AW. lol

"Why should a living artist not be compensated as well as those from the past?" Can you expand on this question please?

Regarding pricing, a rule of thumb I heard in college was: Take the cost of your materials and double that.
I like the idea of a formula as per Frank's mention.
I have used Fotobiz for my editorial work which worked out OK.

"Why should a living artist not be compensated as well as those from the past?"

Where are you seeing this question, in what context was it asked?

"Regarding pricing, a rule of thumb I heard in college was: Take the cost of your materials and double that."

That simply will not work. It takes in no consideration for your time or your talent.

There is no one set rule or formula for pricing your work. There are many different factors that must be considered.

Read my blog: Pricing Your Artwork

http://fineartamerica.com/blogs/pricing-your-artwork.html

I saw it in one of Iris' posts and I wasn't sure what she meant by it.

Thanks Floyd.

When I say quality that means images which are not blurry, grainy unless so intended and printable. Art is in the eye of the beholder anything goes. I came to FAA because FAA came to me. They asked me to join. I did not ponder what the owners vision was. I looked into if FAA fits my business goals. I can't see how quality control would not fit into FAA mission. It is important to me and it shows in my work. I know how I feel when I have to sort though lots of stuff to get to the good candy. I don't like it, I have better things to do with my time. I gather many buyers feel the same and they will go else where.It will be up to me to get my work to be seen. But back to the original topic. I see question about pricing coming up here quite a bit and am happy to give my advise. I can't make anyone follow it. Getting a copy of fotobiz to keep your art business organized and get fantastic tips on pricing is one of my contributions. I agree there are no set rules but it sure is nice to have a starting point. I wish for every artist to make a good living of their art and than some.

"I can't see how quality control would not fit into FAA mission."

It fits in very well. If the technical aspects of the image and or the file will not print to the standards of the quality control process in place, they simply will not print it. If your images get rejected a few times you will be told to clean them up or your account will be closed.

Think about it. How in the world would they ever 'review" the hundreds of images being uploaded every singe day? There are over 7 million images here already and hundreds being added everyday.

Simply closing down the "part of the problem" free accounts would not make any headway into that quality control issue in comparison to the 7 million images already here and the hundreds being added everyday.

If you don't want your prospective buyers weeding through those images, then send people to your AW. That is what it is for.

If you want to get back to the OP, I have no problem with you giving pricing advice. I just do not agree with it. We have already covered that.

You talk about standardization and using a canned software program. I am not going to buy the one you recommend but I will tell you I have seen several of them before. There are some good and some bad ideas in all of them. But I would no more set my prices on what a software package tolld me to then I would trust my healthcare to WebMD.com. There is some really great information there. But it is seriously insufficient to practice medicine.

The idea that there is ever going to be any sort of standardization in pricing art is going to happen as soon as you see some one come up a good method of heading cats. Like it or not or deny it on not. Standardization is a form of price fixing and it is enemy of free markets.

Tamara, sorry, I can not address what the meaning of that statement is because I don't understand it myself. It implies that someone suggested living artist should not be compensated. Not sure where that came from. Or, as I said, if I am not interpreting it correctly. Probably not.

Gotcha.

Thanks for the blog about the pricing! It made sense. :)

Tamara I don't think I wrote that don't have time to go back. If I did I might be talking about the pre 1980 when photographers where compensated quite well. Ones stock came into the picture the assignment fees started falling. Next was micro stock and now we are seeing on speculation kind of sites popping up because sorting though Micro is a pain and not unique. With fine art galleries or direct sale where the options artist had. Sites like FAA open up more opportunities. It is up to artist to make the best of it.

Floyed I did not know they shut people down if they don't clean up. Good for them

So lets go back to helping artist figure out pricing. We kind of went off topic.

I agree with Joseph. Huge blocks of dense type are unreadable. Use the enter key to add some breaks or most likely one will read it.

Let's keep things in perspective. Unless you offer your images for licensing, you are selling a print. Not an original but an open edition print.

You are not doing assignment work. You are creating on spec. Creating something that you like and hope that someone else also likes it enough to purchase it.

You are not exhibiting in an exclusive gallery in the swanky part of town. Anyone can exhibit here and anyone can view year.

No one is bringing down your work. You choose to exhibit in a free for all vanity gallery with no barriers to entry. Someone else's work has no bearing on the quality of your work. Try to keep things in perspective.

Joesph,

Sorry you took offense at my using the term amateur but think there is much in here that is just that which makes it more difficult for those looking for really good fine art much harder as they have to wade through a lot of bad images to get to the good. As far as the "building myself up" statement, at 70 years of age I really don't need to do that and have only tried to share some of my experiences in quite a long photo career. Believe if you would read what I really wrote you'd see it as constructive with no intent in being offensive to anyone. These discussions need to honest about the work and this site to help other artists as well as to help FAA make it better for us,