Any Historic Plumbers?

Mike,

I think copper pipes were first introduced in the 1920's, for plumbing. I had an old house here in Orlando, built in 1929 and all the pipes were cast iron.

As cast iron ages, and cracks, it was replaced by copper and that was the "best fix" of that day. Today, copper here in Florida get's replaced with PVC,

Rich

Hope you took the copper and cashed it in. Big bucks for copper these days.

Mike, copper was used in homes in the US as early as 1900's but it became popular after wwii, it is still used if you can afford it, the scrap price of copper is close to $4 per lb. a 3 inch diameter pipe of length for dwv can be very expensive. I would look for a better way to determine the exact age of your house, abstract of title is your best bet, but county or municipal records check might work.

The County Records Office (probably the Land Office) should have records on file when it was built. The build date might even be listed on the yearly tax records - I know mine is, but I'm California.

You might also try Zillow.com. Maybe you'll get lucky and the build date will be listed, or some of your neighbors' homes might be, providing you're not out in the country where homes are miles apart.

Mike, if you're trying to date your house, look under your kitchen sink (assuming you still have the original sink). Most likely you'll find the date the sink was manufactured stamped somewhere on the bottom. Alternatively, if you still have an original toilet, you may find a manufacturing date stamped on the inside of the tank lid.

When we bought our house the official records said it was built in 1948. But the date stamped on the underside of the kitchen sink was February 11, 1949, so it had to have been completed in '49, not '48. (By a curious coincidence, Feb. 11 also happens to be my wife's birthday.)

copper pipe i've seen, but not as a soil stack. thought it was odd. i'm sure the plumber cashed in on that big time though. they didn't want it after due to the poo and all inside the pipe.

the toilets and sinks of that house were updated a few times over. only that one odd rogue date on that fireplace. oddly their chimney has a crook in it. they couldn't get a flue pipe down it because it jogs over a few inches in the attic. i'm not sure what the deal is with that either.

the town has the house set for 1900 something. but i'm certain its older.

---Mike Savad

Jeff is correct. In our state the office one would use would be the registry of deeds.

Mike, in older houses soil stacks were made of lead. I suspect it is highly unusual to find one of copper.

Were the original owners extremely wealthy?

And yes, copper theft has been on the rise for years. The latest I have heard is the theft of the copper ground wires on power poles being stolen.

impossible to know. i know the previous owners were not, due to the hack job they did themselves on the entire house. we are still cleaning up their messes. there aren't too many houses that look like that on the block, it used have a nice porch but is now enclosed. i'm thinking it was once a farmhouse. the garage is not really stable like and yet, it can easily fit 4 cars. the basement has a bilco, but i'm thinking it wasn't original. it has a stone foundation, and the block type seems to change depending where you looked on the house. parts of the basement shows signs of tennons, including the main beam of the house. and oddly i found wood in the basement that looks like it has paint or tar, but the drips are upside down. making me think that it was taken and reused. yet the floor planks aren't super wide, for a really old house i should see 12-20" boards. though the attic does have cut nails, and looked really nice before the hack electrician cut a dozen square holes in it.

---Mike Savad

Mike,

You might have an "Historical" house, in that the original family were important(rich) and the land then was slowly built up around your house. Find your local "Historical Society", Hoboken? and see if they have any images of your street on their web site and work from there, or go visit them if they have a building/museum.

On your Title papers, you should find the names/owners of your house/land, all the way back to 1600-1700's,especially up there. The when you have a few names, do the search and see who and what they were in your area. Mayor? Landowner,etc.

Any names will help with your search, over at the Historical Society,

with those tennons, your house maybe even older than you think........

Rich

Mike,

In Florida, each county has a "property appraiser" office where you can plug in an address and it will give you the build date of the home.

Maybe the counties in NJ have the same office/service?


--Donna Proctor

Mike,

You mention the "hack" work being previously done on the house, which makes me wonder, does your house have copper or aluminum wiring, or a combination of both?

Yo Donna - each "country" ?- I knew there was something about our state that was just different - we have countries in it. LOL

I'm a real estate appraiser and I have to try to figure out how date older homes frequently. If the home was built in 1982, it is very possible it did not have indoor plumbing at the time it was built. The copper plumbing could have been done well after the original build date. I would probably tend to put some weight on the fireplace date. I don't know about your county, but in my county, homes built before 1930 may or may not be accurately dated in tax assessor's office. You might try the deed office to see when that block of lots was platted. Or try to track older deeds down (again, iffy depending on how your county records are set up). Local historical societies can be helpful, some even have old photos and history on many older homes not just the fancy ones. Problem was, that in those days homes were hand built and one builder may have used different materials and techniques than the next guy. Also it was more common then to recycle older material into a home. Plaster and lathe simply makes it a pre WWII home, it doesn't help a whole lot when going back 100+ years. I would probably look at original floorboards (as well as floors joists and ceiling beams) wood species and width/size. I know what is common here in KY and TN but I'm not as sure it would be the same on the east coast. Maybe an old wood flooring guy would be able to tell you was common there for different time periods.

Woops I meant 1892.

It does sound as though someone wealthy had the house built. Are there any old maps of the area which could give you a clue? I have never heard of a copper waste pipe on a toilet but the chimney thing is something I have seen. The chimney crook may be to stop things dropping down into the fireplace - the ones I have seen have cast-iron access doors just above the turn which would make sweeping the chimney possible. I have found a few dessicated gulls inside - better than them ending up in the fireplace- especially if it has been blocked off.

Has the house ever been known by a name rather than a number?

Most of the buildings that I have worked on, had the copper Soil Stock only through the roof or where visible, then connected to cast Iron pipes after that. The copper seems to me at least, to have been used more to hide the looks of the cast iron on some of the homes, but not all of them. But that went on until the 1940's maybe 50's. You can still get the copper though, they are still made, so it could have been done recently if someone altered it for show. As you can attach copper to PVC just as well. I have seen hot water run through the walls in copper, but not the whole soil stack. It actually would not be a good use of it. Plus the expense would be very high.

@ Roy - LOL, I just fixed my typo thank you! I must have been thinking REALLY big ;)

Ha! A new word. Never heard that expression: Soil Stack.

Must be Eastern. Never heard it used in the South. Guess it's doesn't make for good dinner conversation and that may be the reason I never heard it.

In the early 30s, we lived next to a plumber and he used lead pipes and gave me all the scraps, which I melted and made into lead soldiers.

My teeth were coming in, so I chewed the lead soldiers because it felt good.

Maybe lead is actually good for you?

when their inspector opened up the fuse panel, he took a step back. it was nightmarish. i think there is still some evidence of post wiring in that house, i think i saw a few insulators hidden in joist areas. and quite a few dead outlets, that weren't worth being updated. the last people there updated the bulk of the wiring, but the panel had to be updated.

still not sure why the stack was replaced. i saw a piece of copper pipe in there, the walls had to be an 1/8-3/16" thick. it was some major stuff in there. not sure where it went since the rest is hidden in the wall. i couldn't patch the walls today, the pvc they installed is still leaking. but it's prepped so mess #1 is done.

i think the town doesn't have records that go back that far. so oh well on that. the easy route. the house seems to have 1 original (maybe), bathroom, it has pink and black tile. looks like it was from the 20's or so. the kitchen also has a weaved tile look, (it's tile), that was painted over in terrible colors. mustard yellow and barney purple.

the studs are 2" and rough hewn, i can see saw marks in it, rather rough. main posts are around 6x6". the upstairs area (where they haven't had renovations done), they have coved ceilings, panel doors, skeleton key type locks, and rosette corner molding, with huge windows and huge ornate baseboard trim. there are no real closets, the walls are a victorian cut (where most rooms have 45deg walls). on the second landing of the stairs, there is a door, presumably to stop drafts when the fireplace is going. some of the windows are so large that even santa wouldn't have trouble getting in.

i've been looking for old maps, it's in middlesex nj, the library of congress has many maps, nicely scanned and ready for download. but not that area. it's not super important to know, but it would be nice to know.

i learned today, that the original owners had something to do with the fire dept. not sure what though.

soil stack is plumber talk for the vent pipe but in general the poo goes down that pipe.


---Mike Savad

Mike,

Vent pipe is different and there should be a separate vent pipe. "vent" pipes,vent out the gasses,up and usually out of the roof somewhere. The main pipe is called a "waste" pipe and generally all the bathrooms will connect to it and then out to the sewer system.

Chuck, I think I chewed on a few soldiers in my day too! Matter of fact,weren't cavities filled with lead once,which I had..........

Rich

Rich, And Chuck, I had to look that up myself. I am used to talking to plumbers and they all called them a vent pipe. I had not heard of a Soil Stack either.
Rich is right, they are for venting out gases, so the sewage live do not build gas pockets. Gas pockets can be troublesome, and very dangerous....

Rich, I don't know if I had any lead in my teeth but my father often accused me of having it in my pants.

Maybe I'm thinking of mercury fillings, something that today,we consider lethal!

Rich

Rich, I don't want to take this post away from the main subject: Poo

But, yes, I had mercury in my teeth. In high school I used to sneak mercury out of chemistry lab and play with it at home.

Loved to roll it around in my hands and coat dimes with it. Made them nice and shiny.

I am curious to know how many people know that the spigot (or faucet) on the outside of one's house is also referred to, by plumbers, as a “hydrant”. (Certainly not to be confused with a Fire Hydrant. Big difference...lol.)

At any rate, I look forward to learning more of the history of this house. Please keep us posted, Mike.

“Rich, I don't want to take this post away from the main subject: Poo”

Lol, Chuck. In my short stint as a plumbers assistant I have heard plumbers referred to as “hockey jockeys”.

As well it is said that (some plumbers) need know only four things: Hot's on left. Cold's on right. $~*+ don't run uphill, and paydays on Friday!

By the way, I have great respect for both mechanical engineers, and plumbers. It is both an old profession and a noble one as well.

i always thought the outside valve was called the cock valve. why that name, i never understood. there are names for everything, like the triangle on the side of the roof under the rake, next to the soffit, is called a porkchop. and that little roof next to the chimney that control water direction is called a cricket.


---Mike Savad

I need to install a new washer on the outside hydrant/faucet on the back of our house, just have to turn-off the water to the entire house to do the repair. The faucets (both front and back) are also referred to as "freeze-cocks" or "sill-cocks", as they have longer than normal valve stems and are designed to prevent freezing of the faucets in very low temps. Even though I have this type, I still cover them in the winter with one of those hard foam covers designed for the purpose. Keeps the freezing, blowing wind off of the faucets.

Walter,

I'm sure everyone has seen the outdoor faucets that do not have a handle on them, and instead there's a square recessed stem there. In order to turn the water on/off, you need a "hydrant key", which always reminded of the skate keys we had as kids for the steel-wheeled outdoor skates.

Chuck,

My grandfather, back in the 60's, in NJ, had a JAR of mercury in the basement workshop and when the kids came, he would pour a little out and watch us try and collect it back! We'd get some back and walk over to him,with this stuff in our hands and pour it back into the jar! What FUN!

Mike, the outside faucet or valve is called a "sillcock" valve or "bibb" faucet. And the plumber is usually "Ralph"..............

Rich

i would ralph would invest in longer shirts.... but you know he's the real deal when the crack comes out.


---Mike Savad

Union sized shirts!

Butt no more cracks about plumbers.............

Rich

I read a history about the reason for plumber's cracks showing. It was actually quite interesting.
It used to be the plumbers had to wear belts and dress sharp when going into a house or business. But many times keeping their belts tight around their waits, which would not affect them standing or sitting. The issue came when working in tight and cramped places, where they had bend and crouch to work in. The belt would cut off the circulation, and some of them would not be able to get out to stretch in time before they passed out due to blood not getting through the body effectively. There were even a few cases when the plumbers had even died from it. So companies started letting their people loosen their belts when they stated working, to allow better blood flow. This stopped the issues and protected the plumbers. Over time though the practice got to be more loose than was originally planned, and the issue of the "Plumbers Crack" started to become a issue.

hard to say if that was true or not, you would have to wear a really tight belt. and since they have suspenders or overalls or even coveralls, i would probably replace it with one of those. or just tell those that wear belts to loosen it by a notch.


---Mike Savad

I'm perhaps old enough to be "historic', Mike - just not a plumber