So Artists, You Think You

A private conversation between a son and his father - an faa artist who thinks that he is so creative in cooking:

- I don’t like the food you cook, Daddy! But I always admire mommy’s cooking skills

- It’s too bad you don’t like my food. But don’t forget that : “Beauty Of The Food Is In The Mouth of The Beholder”.

- I got your point. Whatever you’ve said, Daddy, you’re only an amateur cook!

- Don’t insult me, my son. You don’t know what you are talking about. Unlike your mom, I am a cook who breaks the cooking rules. It is my individual creative part that you know nothing !

- I am very sorry Dad. Please don’t feel bad. But I still think that mom knows the basic rules in cooking and she is very articulate to know when she breaks some rules to make her cooking unique!

- Dare you say that I don’t know to break the rules, son? I hate rules and rules destroy creativity

- I only meant that PEOLE CAN ONLY BREAK THE RULES WHEN THEY KNOW ABOUT THE RULES FIRST, WHY THEY BREAK THEM, AND WHAT FOR?

- Ah son! I would be fried, if I talked like that with other artists

Between 2




I think artists speak through their art.

Dear Viet, So glad you came back on! And what a great story you just shared with us :-)

Dear Franziskus, I think your work runs deep and is very thought provoking. There's a beauty to your work which is obvious, but also sadness, isolation, yet the promise of freedom too. We as people and artists have so many levels to explore. How could we ever imagine to understand another person through a few simple encounters. Yet through your work I can reflect on my own unique layers, emotions and perceptions. Thank you for always giving us so much to ponder.

I have been saying this for years.. Period. How can one possibly break rules that one has never bothered to learn in the first place?

Interesting work of art, very pleasing to the eye. It calls you to look more deeply into the art and find little surprises.

I have to admit that the blind delusional ego artist stereotype is pathetically embarrassing.

Art is in connecting with people, being valued and appreciated, be it cooking or painting.
--mary ellen anderson

"blind delusional ego artist"

Ah Mary Ellen, you've read my resume...

Thank you for sharing your thought Franziskus, Kelley, Marlene, Lydia, Mary, and Ed


@ Franziskus.” I think artists speak through their art” by Franziskus.

I think that you have raised a valid point. However, I wonder if an artist would leave the critics and evaluation of his art for those art critics and curators decide if h-is/er work is art. Does the artist have the ability to dispute the opinions of those professionals with the tools they use to evaluate or critic h-is/er work?

@ Kelley: I was forced to put myself back in the hot oven (lol)

@ Marlene: “I have been saying this for years.. Period. How can one possibly break rules that one has never bothered to learn in the first place? “ by Marlene

Wouldn’t it be possible to break rules when all rules have already been broken?

@ Lydia: Thanks for your comment on Franziskus’ work

@ Mary: “I have to admit that the blind delusional ego artist stereotype is pathetically embarrassing.”… By Mary

Your strong comment is quite interesting. It takes me to a common saying: “what a person talks could somewhat reflect what that person is.”


@ Ed: I got it without any slight need of reading your resume (lol)

Sorry, Viet, I don't understand...

Conversation between a teenager and his mother –a retired lawyer .

-Mommy, I gunna be an artist
-why?
-Mom, I don’t wanna waste your money to pay throat-cutting tuition for college or university. I am smart so I can self-taught at home
-Don’t you think that it requires you to work harder and spend more time to read books and practice by yourself?
-No worry mom. I am born creative. And I believe that the formal education in school will destroy my creativity.
-I’m very proud of you. So how long will it take you to learn the rope by yourself and become an artist?
-Oh mom! I hate those outdate rules set in those books by those Old Masters and taught by those professors who don’t know how to paint. I am already an artist who prefers to be creative in my own way. I make my own rules. You must look at my works and see how my art talk for me.
-I am glad that you don’t take any other career or my career
-Why? Mom
-Oh it starts raining. Go help me get the laundry outside. Hurry up! I'll talk to you later

@ Marlene! Is there any rule left to learn how to break when all rules have already been broken? (lol)

Are you just wanting to argue points for the sake of arguing? Or are we exchanging opinions? Doing zen analysis? Or something else with this thread?
--mary ellen anderson

Thanks for asking, Mary, your point of view is as valid as mine on this thread. So please feel welcome to go ahead and post as much as you like to. But please accept the differences in our communication. I don't think that I could find any appropriate answers for your tricky questions. I hope some faa artists would help me answer them for you. Have a good night.

To me, There's only one rule:

One must be able to actualize what one discerns...Only when that ability is achieved can that rule can be broken....Allowing chance serendipity to come to the fore.

Hi, Viet.

Regarding your “Conversation between a teenager and his mother –a retired lawyer”.

I wonder if you are familiar with Jack London, and his outlook on attending institutions of higher education in order to “learn the rules” so to speak.

Firstly and above all, one needs understand the meaning of words and nuanced intent when trying to arrange a conversation between Artists....performers.....for that is the correct meaning of the word "artist"...a performer of whichever medium and art-form/genre that defines him or herself. These are usually highly opinionated and proud individuals who have all conquered their craft to various degrees of success and extremely prone to unabashed public ridicule. Creativity swims constantly and endlessly throughout the cosmos and can touch any one person at any given time. This beautiful experience does not necessary harbour the domain of performers, who by their very mindful dispensation, generally does the creative act an injustice. It is essential to invite the cosmos into one's heart and expect nothing in return, in order to succeed at unification. Pandering to theorems, rules and formulae is a surefire route to mediocrity or the unsafe dizzying heights of grandeur.....that slips effortlessly into darkness at the end of day.

Thank you for sharing your thought, Roger, Walter, and Enver. Have a good day.

@ Roger: You make me think whether when you're humorously humorous or when you are seriously serious
@ Walter: I think that I got your point.

While I don’t disagree with you that Jack London was very creative in his writing, I am afraid to disagree with any thought that Jack London didn’t have a formal education, but he became a famous writer. So to be a writer, it requires only to be creative and there is no need to learn how to write.

Based on the facts that:1/ Firstly, English was his mother tongue. I must assume that Jack London could verbally master English 2/ Secondly Jack London won the first price for one of his short stories when he obtained an eighth-grade education.

Based on the fact that the creative London had spent eight year to get the formal education for writing prize winning story. Could I safely conclude that Jack London had obtained the basic "knows -how " to-write in the English language? Furthermore, please don’t forget that fact that Jack London briefly enrolled at the University of California at Berkeley, before heading north to Canada to seek at least a small fortune in the gold rush happening in the Yukon.

In addition Jack London’s stories reflected his real-life experience.

Anyway, there is an exception in every rule. Yet, it is highly illogical to take the exception and turn it into a rule.

I am interested to learn from the creative mindset of those who always deny to learn the basic “knows-how” or the basic technical elements (or rules) in art before they can be creative to break them all.

@ Thanks Enver. Your thought-provoking thinking process always amazes me.

I am a fan of artist Enver Laney, as he is one of the rare contemporary painters who keep the traditional manner of impressionism.
I think his creativity that reflects through his amazing artworks. I wonder if that Enver broken all the Old Master’s “rules” or technical elements or whatever you prefer to call the thing that requires you to know how to express creatively through your art.

I agree that there are many ways to learn how to do things in general: One can learn from school, from self-taught, from getting the skills by working under a mentor, from experimenting, etc.. Everyone can choose the best learning method for themselves. Yet, I think it takes longer and harder in self-teaching than leaning through a mentor or school. However, I disagree with those who claim that they are so creative that they can do things without leaning and obtaining the basic “knows-how” to do the things.

Again, while I agree that self-taught is also an excellent way to learn- (but I personally think that it may be harder and take longer than under formal instructions). I fully disagree with any concept that art can be created without any need of learning the basics. There has been an on-going concept from some faa artists that “formal education destroys creativity”.

I think human’s knowledge has been added, carried on, and passed down from one generation to another. Is there anything wrong to learn them first and develop them by adding your own creativity to them?

'Develop",Viet.....yes. A personal form of expression based on knowledge, training......., then, forgetting....the Rules.

Defying the Formal conventions makes for unique Art, once learned then forgotten.

Choosing to be uneducated leaves one working in a vacuum. Art based on knowledge of the Formal, is more highly accomplished , in mo. And will support a lifetime of Art-making. Being without that training produces amateurish art, highly exciting,interesting....short-term.

But, I could be wrong. Just ask your local elephant,lol

In photography, just as with many of the arts, rules often work for many things, and not for all of them, so knowing when and when not to break them is what is important. In most of my work, I pay little attention to the "Rules of Thirds", as it does not work. But this is not in all cases, and I think this article points to this very well.

http://www.picturecorrect.com/tips/photography-rule-of-thirds/

"The real world is not nearly so neatly organized as the rule of thirds." from the article is so very true. Sunsets, wildlife, and other issues just do not follow in these rules very well, and stepping outside of them is the best way to get the best shot. I would think for artists painting an image of similar subjects would be the same thing. The trick is knowing when and when not to follow the rules, and remembering what you are shooting, drawing, painting, what ever.

Rules are not something one "learns" but something to both ignore and break. Break rules, yes. Conform no...if you are to consider yourself actively creative.

Unfortunately it takes some articulation to do that and not get into trouble. Quietly break the rules or loudly like the bold rock stars poets!

Conformity can be exquisitely exciting, in Super-realism art, for instance.
Non-conformity can be exquisitely exciting, too. Especially if based on sound knowledge.
Knowledge is the key.............

Oh wow Vivian! I really like that! :-)

IMO, most of those putting down a formal art education may just be a tad jealous of those of us who were privileged to enjoy one...and rightfully so...I could never have learned in 5 years on my own..or had exposure to such incredible artist in so many different disciplines, in one place, anywhere else!
And the same principle is at work here as well...if you haven't had the education, how do your criticize something you've not experienced?

Hi Marlene, You make a solid point. What I find so interesting in these type of conversations is the basic difficulty to exchange information effectively. We've come here to share individual experiences in order to learn something from one another and widen our perspectives (hopefully) yet it always deduces down to who's right or wrong, and who has more or less knowledge. We can all learn from each other, and be pleasantly surprised by how many unique ways there are to be put upon the artist's path. Right and wrong, better or worse seems so off base to me.

Kelley, these threads are mistakenly labeled "discussions."
In so many cases, they are just a bunch of people trying to push their opinions, so it is rare ( and delightful ) when real exchange transpires!
As far as educating oneself, in today's world with the access we have to online courses, marvelous books and museums and lectures, there is little valid excuse NOT to.

I think I'm most creative when acting ...

So Marlene, do you really believe people just refuse to learn about art? Or are they just fighting for their own path to that knowledge.

Thank you, Kelley.

Does an American college degree give you an up on making art?

I think it is used as an excuse, Kelley....remember any excuse is good enough when you don't want to do something...and ANY education takes effort and tenacity.
In a university arena, you get in the groove and it is far easier to pursue your course...on your own, I think it's far tougher...kinda like working at home. I could let a myriad of things distract me because I work at home, but I can't if I need to meet a deadline, etc.
And I haven't even touched on people who are working fulltime at another job and can only learn after hours...I am sure those people don't want to spend precious time learning and studying when they have the choice to just do.

To clarify a universal truth:

Discussion .......... ".thefreedictionary.com/ ... discussion....


Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation. 2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

Vince.....a degree is a high accomplishment, and the knowledge opens doors to grow and become......whatever ! For Art...I'd say, one still has to have the qualities required to produce fine art of one's choice at a higher level of accomplishment than the untrained can / might achieve without it. Knowledge is Power.

Marlene, Granted, working by yourself is not for everyone. Yet people can do it, and well. It's a very particular mindset.

I know that mindset...I call it hermit! ;)
Most days I rarely say a word out loud until dinner, unless the phone rings.
I need to be alone to work, to create, not even music, no distractions.

LOL Marlene! That's one way to say it, another is being one with your moments.

yes, and my moments cannot be interrupted by laundry or dusting, ever.

These days laundry, dusting, arranging, and landscaping are my greatest moments. I've begun to see such beauty in all the little things going on around me. I find it difficult to even contemplate a new piece of art...

sounds to me like mindfulness, Kelley.....a whole new take on the mundane.

Hope so. Thanks for a great discussion Marlene, over and out until next time.

As I've mentioned many times before on this forum, I was fortunate to be able to have the best Art education possible.

Went to a great high school, ( H.S. of Music & Art [now Laguardia H.S.] NYC) a wonderful school of Art after that (Cooper Union) with the most amazing campus of all, (Manhattan Island in the late 50's).

At 14, I was required to sign an oath, " Thou Shall Not Copy!" and that made all the difference.

The blinders of preconceived beliefs were removed and I started to SEE.

Free to SEE the real beauty and significant value of the Classics. along with SEEING the unbelievable power and energy of the contemporary art world at that time, enveloping me.

And Once one has the EYE ,I believe the HAND would naturally follow.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for the dialogues, Vivian, Dan, Vincent, Kelley, Marlene, Roger. Have a restful evening to you all.

I must thank you too, Robert. Enjoy a good night

@ Vivian “…But, I could be wrong. Just ask your local elephant, lol” by Vivian
I did ask my local elephant. He said: “Don’t ask me! My art speaks for me!”. However, he admitted that he got some formal training in art from his handler.

About your thought: “Conformity can be exquisitely exciting, in Super-realism art, for instance.
Non-conformity can be exquisitely exciting, too. Especially if based on sound knowledge.
Knowledge is the key............” I like your interesting thought of conformity and nonconformity. But I personally think that in either case, creativity is the key….knowledge is the compass

BTW: I did have a brief email chat with Australia-based artist Mario Donk. With his approval, I am allowed to share his thought with you here in the open air, Vivian.

Hi Viet

Your question if it matters that you break or keep rules when all rules have been broken?
Yes it does matter. One needs mastery of the craft first, only then can one safely break the rules with no safety net. It matters not what others do, they may have great ability or they may fall on their face. We each have to develop ourselves, it is not a group effort someone else can not break a rule for you, you learn, then if you find it necessary you break the safety of the rules and because you have put in the time your skill will see you succeed despite the rules. But this is not the case if everybody goes, I am creative, I may lose my creativity if I learn the rules, Yes that may happen but the reality is then that they were clearly not artistic enough and its better they fizzle out. An artist needs all the help he can get, The rules are there to help when everything else is failing. Learn the rules (not you personally, but anyone)

Cheers Mario

Following is another thought of Mario Donk -a traditional/digital painter, an animator, and a sculptor:

"...What I feel is that artists need to learn the basics, but more then that, they need to actually be very good at it before they move on to more abstract or expressionistic work. Like English, one has to learn the rules of proper English before you can try to be wildly original with it. I do not see why so many don’t see it, The want to throw paint, they often claim they have no interest in the Traditional fine art. But they do not have control of their medium ether. Its very obvious that a painter can not preform simple skills as they never put themselves to the test.

Its like car driving, you learn to drive well and safe first, you do not jump into a car and expect to be able to Rally drive or do a 360 spin, you learn, everything you learn but when it comes to art no one wants to learn, I will tell you why, because that drawing of the figure is very very difficult, as simple as it looks, most will brush it aside, its too un artistic, well that's the fault of the artist, not the model and the model is very good at showing what we can not do so they will not subject themselves to discovery that they have much to learn, No, they are creative, Yes Sure, like traditional Rembrandt was not creative.

So its not so much rules as not many come to mind apart from the bad idea of splitting an image up the middle, but if you feel it works do it but it needs to work and if abstract you need to verbally be able to express why you did this or that.

The argument is if we paint we do not need to say it words, Sorry that's crap, you do, we all communicate by words, visual can contain much that words can not but if you can not put in words your intention then one is not an artist as they ether have no idea what they are doing or think they are some sort of God that is not accountable, What we do is communication. I speak to you here in English, If that fails I may try Dutch, If that fails I may try a drawing. Communication is the Key word, But many an artist refuses to communicate and says it in paint and goes to hell with every one I am not putting it in words, We should be able to however otherwise we are talking in riddles and have no desire to communicate. Artists communicate but most seem to have forgotten that and think they are safe to be mysterious.

Suppose we were writers, surely we know what we are writing about, surly we do not just write and then look surprised at what we wrote, painting is the same, you know what you're doing or you don’t.

The problem with today's artist is he rarely has any idea what he is meaning to say and expects the Gods to speak through him (Ironic as ,most artists theses days believe in nothing) so what the result, its their subconscious, well no one would recognize their subconscious if they fell over it, so that's just hog wash. you have something to say so say it, perhaps with some luck it will say it well or we have nothing to say, simply painting will still say nothing. Unless we think we are Christ and want to walk about with parables, ...them that have ears let them hear... We owe it to know what our plan is, at least an idea. This is the problem, not the breaking of rules as there are very few. its the refusing to learn because we are lazy and the refusing to communicate as that is below us.

Well I can tell you when I studied Fine Art at Art school , one subject no one could avoid was communications class, no not painting, writing, an artist must know what he is doing and be willing to share it, other wise do not show the work. Yes I can recall bitterly protesting to communications class at the time but the rules where that we did it and they where right. no short cuts, an artist can not leap frog on the backs of others, only on his own work. Does this mean he re invents the wheel? yes it does, its a personal journey, no one can take it for you..."

By Mario Donk

I have no idea what this topic's about, so here:

@ Dan Richard. I think that your comment is very clear and to the point about rules and especially this part of your comment :” The trick is knowing when and when not to follow the rules, and remembering what you are shooting, drawing, painting, what ever.”

Thank for sharing your experience, your thought, and specific tips about photography. Would you mind sharing further your personal thought about professionalism and amateurism in photography? How do a photographer evaluate his photo to determine if it is art and not a family photo?

Thank you very much, Dan. I appreciate your time.

Neither do I, J L Meadows. Yet, I am trying to explore it. I'll let you know after I find it out.

I don't think creativity is the key to knowledge, Viet, rather, I still do think knowledge is the key to creativity.
How nice you caught up with Mario. He does always hold to that very thought you quoted. I wonder how his creations are faring..he is a multi-talented artist.

"Does an American college degree give you an up on making art?" Vincent

Hi Vincent: I think any formal training in school would provide learners with basic knowledge, trips, tricks, and the know-how to do the jobs. I think ART requires much more than that- it's the CREATIVITY which cannot be learned but can be explored. A college degree doesn't provide art students with the creativity in making art. However, it equips the art learners with appropriate tools/instructions/or the WAY. So they can use it in their journey to explore their own creativity.

In another word, I think technical element can be learned (and must be learned as a foundation) to for deep exploration of the creativity element which cannot be taught.

Thanks Vivian. I think there wouldn't be any art form without creativity. But, so far I have often found that I am 99% wrong in my thought (lol)

PS: Mario is busy for art. Send him a PM.

".. need to be alone to work, to create, not even music, no distractions..." Marlene.

@ Marlene: I don't have much experience in creating art full time. So I am curious to know how you keep your creative momentum all the time. What could you often do when you hit a creative block? Would you mind sharing your own experience working as a full-time artist such as how to maintain your inspirations, your interests, your joys, etc.? Thank you.

"At 14, I was required to sign an oath, " Thou Shall Not Copy!" and that made all the difference." Roger

Would you mind explaining further about your thought of "COPY"? What do you mean by that? I wonder if you would consider realism is copying?

Viet,

Re: Copying

To answer your question.

We were encouraged, no forced, to SEE Everything through our own EYES, and not filtered through other's eyes.

This would hold true in what we SEE in the world around us, or in the world within us.

Roger; mind if I copy your cartoons? I could change them around a bit and claim they are mine! LOL

Viet; Than you for quoting Mario Donk who is as creative as they get. He has always been an inspiration to me and many other artists in the struggle to survive the rocky road.
By the way I recently heard from Charles Peck and he's teaching a class in drawing and one in painting as well as more murals in Punta Gorda, Florida.


I agree with everyone about an American art degree and it's value to a serious artist. It not only opens doors but proves there are people who really do take art seriously.
The galleries get government grants and are closely connected to those in the educational system. My daughter graduated from Pratt Institute of Art in New York and I
attended a community college while hanging out with friends in high places at the Kansas City Art Institute. The only thing that kept me from a degree was money.

Some of these professors and masters allowed me to show their work in my own art gallery and were always there for me to consult with.

Thanks for asking, Viet...I do not have "creative block" in my mindset. I have also never considered muses and all that other stuff that people are looking for, before they can get going. My only muse is my stack of bills...and a commitment I made over 40 years ago to be a working artist....to spend my life expressing myself through my art.
I have days that my expressions find their place, and other days that they do not....but just like one's head is never devoid of thoughts, my creativity is never without something to call upon. My emphasis is on process, not product. From that frame of mind, the process needs nothing woo woo to get going...it just needs to be done. The product is a happy ending to a day of being in process. If the product is good, great! BUT, that is a bonus. If it stinks, well, I then have a great canvas for underpainting tomorrow.
When I cannot paint, I take my phone outside and look for compositions...I always see them and I can challenge myself to compile them when a brush isn't in my hand.

I really cannot wrap my brain around comments like " I cannot get going. I am not inspired. I have lost my muse."
I never put those comments in my brain, so they never trip me up.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

It was interesting reading about your process Marlene. You are very disciplined. I also love where others go, in their psyche, in search of other ways, other inspirations, there are splendid things to be found there, and its a journey, just l;ike any other, would be a boring world if our brains all worked the same.

What civilization throughout history is known to have been the most creative with their artworks?

Thank you, Roger, Vincent, Marlene and Maria. I appreciate you time. It’s perfect day. I almost got lost outside and couldn’t find my way back to the cyberspace (lol). Have a good night.

Conversation between a teenager and his mother (continued)

The teenager brought the laundry inside;

- Too bad. They get soak, mom
- Dry them for me, son
- Where’s dad? Isn’t it daddy’s chore? Just leave’ em for him, mom
- He’s taking the van for a regular tune-up. Do it, son!
- Why don’t you do it yourself, mom?
- Are you busy, son? I am going to prepare our dinner
- OK. I’ll do it. But next time, we must leave it for daddy

The mother was in the kitchen and the son went to the laundry room

A minute later

- Mom! When did we have this new dryer? Where is the old one?
- I bought for nearly a half year as gift for your dad when it was on big sale on the Valentine Day. Your dad had complained the old dryer made a lot of noises.

About three minutes in silence. Then, suddenly, the mother heard her son’s F word for laundry room
- F…
- What’s wrong?
- I couldn’t find out how this damned new dryer work? Can you show me, mom?
- I’m busy, son. Read the user’s manual on the shelf. The instruction is very simple.
- I’ve already read it, mom.
- Read it again. If you still couldn’t figure it out. Just leave it for your dad and come here help me chop some onions …(to be continued soon at the theater near your home (lol)

“IMO, most of those putting down a formal art education may just be a tad jealous of those of us who were privileged to enjoy one...”

Gosh, Marlene, I certainly hope that my few comments were not taken as a put down to formal education, be it in art, or otherwise.

Jack Londons view (given in Martin Eden) was that he did now want to become the kind of writer that the schools were putting out. He wanted to be “outside the box” so to speak.

Not to say that he was right or wrong, but I certainly enjoy his writing.

And yes. I agree. Long before the internet, I used the library, and my encyclopedia.

(I once had a friend visit, and upon seeing my set of Britannica, asked, “Why would anyone need an encyclopedia after you graduate college?”)

I had a year and a half of higher education. Architectural Engineering Technology at my local tech school, which was interrupted by the government deciding to do away with the school deferment. I was drafted into the United States Army, but not before my dad---who had by that time decided he no longer liked the Vietnam war---had pulled some strings to get me into the National Guard.

Boy! Talk about learning? I leaned more about the basics of warfare in six months than I ever wanted to learn!

As for my art education? I took several classes through a local art store---drawing, painting, and mixed media. Then: draw, draw, draw, paint, paint, paint, paint. Then draw some more. Then paint some more.

Then I bought a camera. Back to the library! And the book store. And shoot, shoot, shoot. Read, read, read, and shoot, shoot, shoot!

Funny story: I answered an add for a photographer for a local newspaper. At the time, I had photographed several dozen weddings. So I was a paid photographer with a bit of experience.

Yet the job required running a film darkroom. Which---thankfully--- I had covered in my vast reading. I had a basic understanding of the process, but no experience.

Well, in the interview, I boldly stated that I certainly WAS capable of doing the darkroom work. (I had contacted a close friend. A Gunny Sargent that ran the darkroom for the Marine Core air base at Cherry Point, NC. He gave me a three day crash course in the darkroom)

In the course of my employment there at the newspaper it was suggest by a friend that I become a writer! So I did. More reading! More learning!

Stories published in the paper! I was on my way, I thought. Then the Publisher sold the newspaper. The new owner came in and replaced the entire editorial staff.

He later sent an envoy---the new Managing Editor---to offer me my job back. I was to prideful to accept. I somewhat regret that decision. I LOVED working for that newspaper!

At any rate, I went on to finish my first novel---as yet unpublished---but this is only one of many artistic adventures I have embarked upon. I currently have sixteen songs sitting on analog tape---ready to be transferred to digital file---in which I was writer, singer, rhythm (as well as) lead guitar player, and base player. (I used a drum machine for the percussion)

Nevertheless, one of the points I want to make is that I am still learning. As Ansel Adams stated, (paraphrasing here) “I will never learn it all”.

I submit that it is less important how, or where, one gets his education as long as one gets the education.

But thank Goodness I did not become a Architectural Engineering Technologist!

Love your account Walter. All this talk of education! I have worked in education for 20 years, before that I was being educated, and still am. Like Walter i love learning and love to jump in and have a go at things, then I read and experiment and inbetween I take courses to improve my knowledge and get the best out of what i am working with, to the best that i can afford, financially and the timewise. I am not going to list everything i have tried but am interested in knowing how you decide if you have been formallly trained. There are so many levels of training. The old masters did not have the equipment used today, so where does that leave training. Working in education, I see teachers trained at the same level delivering very different lectures. yes, they have the basic rules imprinted on their brains but they deliver them so differently.Soe people have said it is their perogative, once they have learned the rules. How do I know if I have learned every artistic rule? What if I've missed a few? I know I have and I know that people who think they have every rule tucked away in their brains, cannot have, its impossible, as rules change too, art movements tear down previous ideas and prove the rules wrong. Still, i would like someone who says that they are trained artists to make a list here of what you need to know to be recognised as formally trained. And at what level or institution? I recall a trained potter saying once when I asked if I could use their kiln for my first amateur figure, and he said this to somebody else not me, that he might as well give up as he has been potting for years and studied hard and I brought in this figure, he was glad for me but felt frustrated himself. I learned some basic skills from his classes as an observer. I will continue later as the dinner is burning :))

Hey Walter, would love to have a gander at your novel, what is it about? To the priveleged and unpriveleged( of which i am one, at some level) who strive to become better at whatever you are creating, I think you are all brilliant not necessarily in what you turn out but that I feel connected in some way, trained or untrained we share a common factor, we love making art and do not give up trying to improve.

Hi Walter Thank you very for sharing your thought. I really appreciate your time.

I think that you and I both have a common ground that “self-taught is also an excellent way to learn”. And your own journey in the art world has reflected my thought that self-taught requires hard work and time. According to your journey, the creativity is the decisive factor that led you to your success in the art of photography.

I have shared the same thought with yours that the most essential element for an artist is h-is/er creativity. However, I do believe that - to create art- one must acquire at least the basic knowledge in art either through formal education or self-taught or any other way, In general, I think only the one who know rules can break the rules to serve h -is/er own creative purpose.


I wonder if you -as a photographer would think whether that there is a difference between a photo taken by a pro and the one taken by an amateur like me? So would you mind telling me the difference between those two photos? Thanks gain Have a nice day, Walter

Note: I consider myself as an amateur in the art of photography, simply because I haven't acquired enough knowledge to explore further my creativity is this medium.

@ Maria. Good to read your articulate thought. Thanks for stepping into the oven. I am glad it''s still warm - and not too hot.

I have witnessed your recent different approaches in art. I don't know whether the formal training your are getting in school has had any positive impact on your creativity. Would you mind sharing with us your insight? Does it draw back your creativity or does the training provide your with more ways to explore, develop, or enhance your creativity? Thank again, Maria. Have a restful day.

Thank you for the kind words and input, Maria. Greatly appreciated.

First, as to my novel:

Short. 50,000 words. Fourteen chapters and an epilog. A romantic psycho-drama based on a theory in a book by Howard Halpern, titled, How To Break Your Addition to a Person.

It---like my music---is sitting on the shelf waiting for me to get back around my prodigious circle and find time to get back to it.

I think I may have more success with my humorous golf dictionary, Uncle Websters Illustrated Dictionary of Golf...Everything you always knew about the game of golf, but were afraid to admit.


I would love to have you read the novel, Maria, but it is simply not possible at this time. All I have is a hard copy and do not have the money to copy and ship it to you. That said, I would probably not send it to you unless you were a credible literary agent! :-)

You bring up an interesting topic, Maria. That of the “old masters”. Not sure how many “art schools” were in existence at the time. As I recall/understand it, most artists were accepted by those that went before them and these “students” served an apprenticeship, or something of the kind.

@ Viet. “According to your journey, the creativity is the decisive factor that led you to your success in the art of photography.”

Actually, I have to disagree. What drives me more than anything is my passion for learning.

Years ago, I wanted to learn how to dance the Shag. It is a dance that is extremely popular in South Carolina. One day, when I had plenty of money I walked into a Fred Astaire dance studio and asked them to teach me the shag.

Some eight months---and several thousand dollars later---I competed in the Cross Country Dance Championships in Bal Harbor, Florida as a novice.

Three second place finishes. Foxtrot, Tango, and Swing---which is in fact an offshoot of the “shag”.

Several years later---during the beginning of the “Country Dance” craze---I walked into a dance club and witnessed hundreds of people dancing what they called the “Texas Two-Step”.

I thought to myself, “Well, I'll be. They are dancing a version of the Fox Trot. I wonder is they know?”

This led to an short career as a part time paid dance instructor, and some contest wins. LOL.

Creativity? That is a big word. And I submit that it may mean many different things to different people. In my own thinking, when it comes to photography, I suppose---more than anything---it comes down to a mix of my knowledge of photography/art and what I call my intuitive eye. Am I creative? I would like to think so, yet there are hundreds and hundreds of artists on this very site that I consider to be much more creative than I.

I may only wish that I was half as successful as you imply that I am, Viet. :-)

Some pointers...

Education is never a bad thing and appears much more respectable in public than self denigration which by its very nature not only qualifies the individual involved but the environment in which it occurs. In emerging democracies around the world where the Arts are nigh taboo, knowledge is a valuable commodity that serves as useful aid and trusted friend. Uneducated individuals in modern political settings have many options available to them of which false bravado should be avoided at all cost lest the earnest quest for knowledge and betterment suffers irrevocably.

'Education is never a bad thing'. I probably agree, otherwise I've being working against myself for 20 odd years! A person may be educated in the Arts, but not science, or languages.
Are they still educated? Are you Educated if youhave been priveleged enough to obtain the knowledge by the educated but don;t use it and yet still look down on those that have not attained it in the way that is generally acknowledged. Are you educated if you have been self taught and appreciate and respect others above any formal education, or even higher education. Why is the world in the mess it is in if all the top jobs are run by the best educated people? I think it was vivian who said knowledge is power, but it all comes down to the intelligence of the person who has that power, that knowledge, that education, which is so tiny compared to what we DON'T know, by the way. How is intelligence different, intelligence, which may not necessarily be gained from education, but might encompass, knowledge and education and therefore power, seems to be what we should be aiming for and any intelligent person would know that an uneducated person can outdo an educated person, within their own field of interest and creativity.Walter proves this, what an intelligent guy! By the way, formal education is changing drastically in its nature because of technology. You want to know something in a classroom, no need to feel inferior, just google all the information you need within seconds. The educators struggle to keep up with their students ability to find information, and so become the educators. I witness it every day. Creativity education, knowledge, intelligence and the appreciation of the complexities of humans has me think, is an informed artist any better than an uninformed artist? Informed about what? Uniformed about what? As I said, WE ALL KNOW NOTHING, in comparison to what there is to know, by the way some educated guy, a scientist I think, said that on some tv programme. We all copy and paste life. You don't have to be formally trained to encounter mysteries in life and make sense of them for you. You only have to be creative, which we all are.
2.From "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns" (1995), a report published by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association:

Individuals differ from one another in their ability to understand complex ideas, to adapt effectively to the environment, to learn from experience, to engage in various forms of reasoning, to overcome obstacles by taking thought. Although these individual differences can be substantial, they are never entirely consistent: a given person's intellectual performance will vary on different occasions, in different domains, as judged by different criteria. Concepts of "intelligence" are attempts to clarify and organize this complex set of phenomena. Although considerable clarity has been achieved in some areas, no such conceptualization has yet answered all the important questions, and none commands universal assent. Indeed, when two dozen prominent theorists were recently asked to define intelligence, they gave two dozen, somewhat different, definitions.[6][7]


Besides those definitions, psychology and learning researchers also have suggested definitions of intelligence such as:


Researcher

Quotation

Alfred Binet Judgment, otherwise called "good sense," "practical sense," "initiative," the faculty of adapting one's self to circumstances ... auto-critique.[8]
David Wechsler The aggregate or global capacity of the individual to act purposefully, to think rationally, and to deal effectively with his environment.[9]
Lloyd Humphreys "...the resultant of the process of acquiring, storing in memory, retrieving, combining, comparing, and using in new contexts information and conceptual skills."[10]
Cyril Burt Innate general cognitive ability[11]
Howard Gardner To my mind, a human intellectual competence must entail a set of skills of problem solving — enabling the individual to resolve genuine problems or difficulties that he or she encounters and, when appropriate, to create an effective product — and must also entail the potential for finding or creating problems — and thereby laying the groundwork for the acquisition of new knowledge.[12]
Linda Gottfredson The ability to deal with cognitive complexity.[13]
Sternberg & Salter Goal-directed adaptive behavior.[14]
Reuven Feuerstein The theory of Structural Cognitive Modifiability describes intelligence as "the unique propensity of human beings to change or modify the structure of their cognitive functioning to adapt to the changing demands of a life situation."[15]

What is considered intelligent varies with culture. For example, when asked to sort, the Kpelle people take a functional approach. A Kpelle participant stated "the knife goes with the orange because it cuts it." When asked how a fool would sort, they sorted linguistically, putting the knife with other implements and the orange with other foods, which is the style considered intelligent in other cultures.[16]

Viet, to answer your question. The more I learn the more I realise I know so little, but that little keeps me on my toes, my hands busy, my heart racing, or missing a beat sometimes when I realise I just learned something that had never occurred to me before, or that I had learned once but hadn't understood, and suddenly the penny drops and I understand a bit better.
I might study an artist, say Van gogh, on one of the course units I sporadically do, and see someething from his point of view and can't hold in the excitement, and yet, I know that Van Gogh did not know everything. He struggled to learn, for many reasons, but what i love about him most, is that through his love and sensitivityfor humans, especially the underdog, he created masterpieces, images which most people find something of themselves in,a reflection of the basic human nstincts.

Walter, I have an unfinished novel too. Wouldn't it be great to share our stories? Do you have a scanner you could scan a chapter and email it. I can email you some of mine if you wish. Just don't ask me to send any recordings of my singing as I cannot sing, though singing teachers tell me everyone can be taught to sing LOL! But there is singing and singing, I suppose like there is art and art.

Good morning Walter, Enver, and Maria. Many thanks for your “cool” dialogues. I have just scanned through them. The sun is shining outside. I hope I could spend time tonight and read again to see if I have any thought to share. Have a nice day.

Conversation between the teenager and his mom (continued):

- Ya know ,mom! I hate chopping onion.
- Me too. Good that you help.
- I have noticed that you have some drawings and also some art supplies in the den. Are you going to convert it into a studio?
- Yes, son. I hope you can use it too. I want to practice and paint as I have been attending some drawing/painting courses at the community centre
- Cool! Do you think that you can be a creative artist?
- Why is that, son?
- Ya know! Ya are a law abider who thinks inside the box full of rules. Mom, you always tell me not to break rules, even daddy’s rules at home. Why da ya want to be an artist, mom!
- I hate my title
- What?
- They call me a retired lawyer or an ex-lawyer. Retired or ex is insulting word that makes me sick!
- Why is that ?
- Retired? Do I look that old? …and ex? do I lost myself
- You look young and pretty, mom! I’ve heard it from Dad every day… and heee…hee…this is the only thing that dad and I are in common.
- Thanks, You ‘ve make my day, Son. But dad loves you as I do
- I know. But he’s too rough. Ya, know what I mean mom.
- Yeah! Dad cares for you and he keeps in his heart… And you may not see it, son.
- OK! Ok! I get it. You haven’t answered my question, mom. Why do you want to be art artist?
- Artist is a noble title that everyone can get. It sounds 100% better than my current title of retired or ex lawyer… And after I get it, it becomes my lifetime title. Have you ever heard an ex-artist?
- Noup! So you only want only the artist title? Why don’t load on FAA site the photos that you have taken from many different places around the world during various vacations with dad … And not much sweat! Voila! You’re a fine artist.
- Good point, son. I like artist title on my card- but not an only empty title that makes me sound silly.
- dacha mean that it was the reason why you’ve attended, those courses, mom?
- Not really! I’ve attend those community courses just to interact with other leaners and start my new network with the local art community. Nowadays, Internet has provided self-leaners more materials/information than any university or any training institution community. So, I can teach myself at home without spending time and money for tuition fee.
- Ha… ha…I got you, mom! I know that you’re smart. But I ain’t stupid.
- What?
- C’mon! Mom, How can you be self-taught? Why not me? Why have you and dad kept pushing me to complete my high school and pursue further for more formal education in college or a university? Ooop!.. Oh!... Shit!… It’s bleeding!
- Let me see! Wash your finger, I’ll go get a bandage….
(to be continued)


A sundry thought for those self-learning artists who have children:

Don’t you as parents prefer your kids to complete high-school and/or pursue further for more formal education in college or a university? Can they be self-taught at home without your instructions or supervision?

Re: Rules

What rules?, Which rules? Whose rules?.

The rules I were taught were:
Draw BIG,... Don't erase,...Build, build the piece..Never Copy someone else's work...And eventually you'll be able to SEE...Once Seeing the hand will naturally follow.

Others are taught:
Learn from the books...See how others do it....be careful.....and eventually you'll be able to do it also.

What great information coming in here! It actually paves the way to know that there in fact is no such thing as "self taught." Everyone is "learning" from something whether it's intensive study at a university, working directly in the field, private practice, etc, etc. No matter who the "teacher" is, we each have only a certain amount we can take in, and there is where the gap appears in artistic abilities. On another note, we can always enjoy great stories from so many interesting individuals. :-)

Enver pointed out. 'As Education is never a bad thing and appears much more respectable in public than self denigration which by its very nature not only qualifies the individual involved but the environment in which it occurs'.

It is the law to send kids to school. many would not go otherwise. we are all under the impression that the further our kids go in education, whether they want to or not, is the best thing. I never forced my boys to further their education, although i wanted them to. One chose to do so, the other didn't, he wanted to get out into the world of work and earn money. His intelligence comes from genes, some study, but mostly life experience. The other boy preferred hands on further study rather than the academic path. He won 1,000 dollar prize with 6 other students across the whole state of Victoria for his I.T skills and now runs his own business. he continues to study at his own pace. Have you ever read a microsoft manual? He absorbs information on many things around him, as we all do. Neither boys have compromised themselves for not taking a university academic path. But, I still wished they had, as I know everyone can benefit from the diverse amount of information out there, but in reality how much do we need to live a purposeful life.

At 50+ I am studying a double degree of Fine art and Visual culture, when time and finances allow, I have a diploma in Creative Art, and take short courses in photography, my latest love :)) at the moment I am studying contemplative photography. I wish i had done all of this earlier in my life, i wish I had had someone to encourage me, I wish I had had the belief in myself then as I do now, but I didn't. Nevertheless I enjoy trying to fit it all in now and I think i appreciate moreso.

Maria, You just spoke so highly of your sons, and openly admitted you still lean one way… We all do that so much don't we (I do it all the time)




Added thought: Maria I hear you, and appreciate your position.

Thankyou Kelley. I think I have said enough on this subject, maybe too much, maybe too much subjectivity, but think its good to get engaged in discussions like this, I don't think you can question yourself at every word whether you are qualified enough to speak. Otherwise wwe are limiting our spontaneity, the part of our living which doesn't rely totally on rules. I might learn something tomorrow which may change some parts of my present perspective.LOL. That is what is so exciting about the future...for me.

Thanks so much for coming back Maria! I hear you...

Thanks Maria and Kelley

"@ Viet. "According to your journey, the creativity is the decisive factor that led you to your success in the art of photography.” Actually, I have to disagree. What drives me more than anything is my passion for learning. Walter

I wonder if your creativity would have had much positive impact on your success beside your passion for learning? How about your love for art? your hard work? your intelligence as Maria did mention in her post?

…And you wrote: “Am I creative? I would like to think so, yet there are hundreds and hundreds of artists on this very site that I consider to be much more creative than I.”

Your comment made me wonder what factor that led to your consideration that hundreds and hundreds of artists on this very site to be much more creative than” you? Is there any way in which an artist can refer to and relatively define or be aware of h-is/er level of creativity?

Enver. "Education is never a bad thing and appears much more respectable in public than self denigration which by its very nature not only qualifies the individual involved but the environment in which it occurs."

Your comment made me think of Maria's question: "Why is the world in the mess it is in if all the top jobs are run by the best educated people?" It is likely that the majority of high-end jobs requires a university degree, most of normal jobs require high school completion. High school dropouts can often be ONLY qualified for low entry level jobs.

I'd like to refer to Vincent's comment about his daughter graduated from Pratt Institute of Art in New York. Her certificate from the formal education may/ or may not automatically turn herself into a creative artist. However, it is a passport to make her qualified for tens of thousands of careers that are art related. In addition, the majority of galleries require an artist to submit a curriculum vitae that confirms if the artist has any formal training or not. I think that Vincent has a great reason to be proud of his daughter's success in her first step into the world of art

I agree that while a piece of paper from formal education is worthless as it doesn't certify the level of the creativity of an artist, it certainly tells those employers and owners of galleries that the artist has acquired enough knowledge in the art field. That worthless piece of paper is an effective fishing rod for bread and butter so an artist can earn an extra income while creating art.

Maria. "It is the law to send kids to school. many would not go otherwise. we are all under the impression that the further our kids go in education, whether they want to or not, is the best thing. I never forced my boys to further their education, although i wanted them to."

FYI: It is fortunate that many countries make law to send kids to school. There are still some countries that don't legally require kids to go to school. Kids from many poor families have never had a chance to go to school. The most cruel factors is that those uneducated kids when they grow up - they can do only the manual /hard labor jobs. It is a vicious cycle.

Yes, let's be civilized and talk about art and training. I think the masters are rolling over in their graves over our incredible stupidity. What is going on NOW is miraculous! STOP LIVING IN THE PAST………..there I said it, we are great now, here is a moment, doing what we do!! Got a problem with that? Well, here we go……….

Thought added: If I were a kid in todays times I would study what was prevalent to my future. There is a time to leave the past behind.

Re: Rules

What rules?, Which rules? Whose rules?. Roger

Haa..Rules are for those rulers, Roger. Artists have either accepted no rule or already broken all the rules, if any. I think there is only anarchy the world of art (lol) Have good night, Sir Swezey.

Kelley! Watdaya mean? I dun understand your point!

Did I say something offensive Viet, or is there some merit to my complaint?

Please clarify your point. I didn't get it, Kelley! So I feel no offensive so far!

Hi Kelley. I was not aware that it were a complaint of yours until you did confirm in your last post. Please clarify what is your complaint about. However, never mind, in case you don't see any point to clarify your complaint

Hi Viet, Thank you. I'm just saying we have all this fuss about what is proper and right, but it has nothing to do with "now." The world has spun out of control with talent, media, science, etc., etc… Why is anyone still talking about art from the past. Look around, art is bigger and better than ever before. I'm so sick of being led backwards, It's pretty good right here, right now...

Thanks for your clarification,Kelley! I got your point. I myself still don't see your comment as a complaint. If I am right I think that it was just your thought about the living moment.

Do you think that it is possible to catch the on-going moment without referring backward to the past and forward to the future?

Maybe Viet… maybe not. So many discussions about what was done in the past, and why we should respect that without argument. I believe it's there so we can surpass it…


Thought added: I won't be surpassing anything, I'm a pleb...

"So many discussions about what was done in the past, and why we should respect that without argument" Kelley!

I agree with your nice thought. But if it could become a reality, life would be perfect! Have a good night.

Viet, probably not. I was told a long time ago I live simultaneously in the past, present, and future. It's complicated...

@ Roger

I am a fan of your cartoons. I love your humor whether there are rules or no rules

So many discussions about what was done in the past, and why we should respect that without argument. I believe it's there so we can surpass it…

I agree here. The past should always be a stepping stone into the future, and not a limit of it.

If we were talking about doctors,I would like to think that she/he had had the best training possible. But I don't want to look at them longer than I have to, or hang them on my wall, infact the less of them I see, the better. But I admire immensely their skills and knowledge and their passion to improve life. Now back to art.........

Viet;

I also feel Roger is a very special person and an artist of great merit. I have never seen any work with such dynamic energy and every cartoon is a story of interest.
Is there a book available with Roger's work?

Vincent,

Wow!....What an Endorsement!!!

Eventually?? I'll have my tome, worthy of everyone's coffee table, available.

When that will be...WHO KNOWS??

By the way, Vincent, can I quote your words, when I go about peddling the book?

Now, back to "Breaking Rules"

Thanks Roger but I am very serious...I'll buy a copy! You may find that publishing a slick coffee table book is worth a the time to plan it all.

Thank you: Dan, Maria, Vincent and Roger. Have a restful day.

@ Maria: Your comment about doctors makes me think of those medicine women/men in the past. I wonder if those self-taught medicine women and men in those tribes had more freedom of creativity in their diagnosis and treatment for their patient than those doctors who got formal education from a Western medicine schools in the past.

I wonder how formal education could become a burden on a human’s mind? Does it really destroy the creativity of a person, especially in fine art?

....Now, back to "Breaking Rules". Roger

@ Roger: As you've asked. I think there are two types of persons: 1- those who know if there is/are any rule(s) to break and which rule(s) they want to break and for what purpose 2/ those who know nothing about rule(s) and whether they are breaking any rule or not.

I am amazed at the level of inaccuracy to make a point. Artists, medicine men, women, etc. learned through a long period of apprenticeship with a master. If fact, more cases then not this relationship lasts a lifetime or until the death of the master. It is ridiculous to think that within any field of importance the novice would have to rediscover the knowledge that is already known, and being passed down. If everyone has to start from zero we would probably still be living in caves if living at all. Isn’t the apprentice system the basis of formal education, or more accurately the birth of being formally educated. I thought the point of an education is to get one started, to have enough knowledge to go into the world and practice. I always believed one should hold one’s practice in high regard, this is where we go beyond what we have been taught. So why the need to demean our practice when it is a time when we excel. During practice we teach ourselves what others can not. Most of us spend more years in the practice of our art, so in the end we are all in fact educated, and self taught.

Thank you, Ben. I think that your point is one of the points of view that I have been trying to convey so far.

Please read my following comment which was posted earlier on this thread, then tell me whether you and I share the same thought on the education issue or not”

“I agree that there are many ways to learn how to do things in general: One can learn from school, from self-taught, from getting the skills by working under a mentor, from experimenting, etc.. Everyone can choose the best learning method for themselves. Yet, I think it takes longer and harder in self-teaching than leaning through a mentor or school. However, I disagree with those who claim that they are so creative that they can do things without leaning and obtaining the basic “knows-how” to do the things.” Posted at 3:36 pm on March 11the 2014. By Viet Tran

Viet,

Here I am butting in again,

I believe that the ability to SEE is all that's important in creating Art...Once someone has that unfettered ability, free from all preconceived dictum, can one then create.

There's may be a rare individual that has the innate ability to SEE.(like perfect pitch in music), but as for the rest of us, including most of the well known artists, we do need mentors of one kind or another....Even Jackson Pollock had Benton..

..Here is a telling reference, taken from Wikipedia,......"In 1930, following his older brother Charles Pollock, he moved to New York City, where they both studied under Thomas Hart Benton at the Art Students League. Benton's rural American subject matter had little influence on Pollock's work, but his rhythmic use of paint and his fierce independence were more lasting"

"I believe that the ability to SEE is all that's important in creating Art...Once someone has that unfettered ability, free from all preconceived dictum, can one then create." Roger

Thanks Roger! I don't disagree with your above comment. However, I think that SEE is only one of various factors in "creating art". An artist can visualize (SEE) clearly in h-er/is mind his potential work. However, if s/h-e doesn't have the ability to turn what s/h -e sees into a REALITY (in this case an actual artwork). So s/h-e has had a fail attempt in h-er/is creating process. I hope I didn't misunderstood your thought. Have a good night.

It seemed that there was some misinterpretation of my points of view about education. I MUST CLARIFY what in my thought:

1/ Knowledge from either formal education (school) or informal education (self-taught, etc.) is the only the basic tool for an artist to explore h-er/is own inner self and the outer universe during h-er/is creative journey into the world of art.

2/ Education alone CANNOT turn anyone into a creative artist.

Good Morning Viet,

RE: SEEING

It is my contention that SEEING is the Only factor in the visual creative process.

Once one has obtained that ability, the HAND will naturally follow..

Good morning and thank you for your clarification, Roger. Have a joyful week, sir.

I think that I get your point now. Also I respect your thought about creative process. I am fully aware of the fact that every individual is unique. Different people have different perception of art and different ways of creating art. I appreciate those artists who take your time and share your thought. It's good for me to learning about different mindsets regarding the creative process and art in general.

Hello, I will add in my simple input and not deep thought. I am a self taught artist and although I can see and picture a piece of finish art in my mind, I cannot always interpret it on paper or canvas. I feel its because I have not had formal art training/education. I can only give an example of what I mean... I am a formally trained fashion designer and I can take an idea and transform that idea into reality quickly and exactly to what I want because I had that education. Not having the education in art has taken me in a longer path to refine my somewhat
born talent. If I am missing interpreting what the converstion is all about...disregard mine.

My comment made on 3/10 was on your artistic work Mr Viet.

Hi Lydia!

I am very sorry for not replying to your comment on 3/10 as I thought that your comment was about art in general. I please accept my apology for my misinterpretation. I really appreciate and thank you for it.

I haven't checked faa forum as I've been taking time off from the internet. The weather has been so fantastic for outdoor activities. Thanks for sharing your thought. Enjoy a happy week.