Three Questions About Tags

you should do both, leave out spaces though, they count. some say the order is relevant. but you don't know what words a person will use so i find it makes no difference. however do add the phrase, because if they use it, yours will be seen first more or less. add plurals as well.

if you think your pano's will be found better by saying that, then do. but it eats up a lot of characters, and your better to say skyline panorama or something like that. it takes 24 hours before it's seen in the search, so it might be a timing issue. if you didn't spell it right or forgot to add the words it may not show. the search order is based on sales and popularity, you might be in the way back.


about keywords - you can't use the same thing for all of them. this has a ton of un related spam words - crab spider, peacock etc. and the words horizontal isn't listed at all. you have a few images like that. this should be corrected or they will take all your words away and you'll have to start over.

your much better off listing the words for that particular image. there are a lot of french town ones that have all the same words.


this one here has angkor wat, cambodia and mexico - it can't be all those places.

you'll want to fix those and any others that don't fit in.


---Mike Savad

1.

Do both. If you use ,eastern diamondback Rattlesnake, I would also add Diamondback,rattlesnake, and even ,diamondback rattlesnake, and diamond back rattle snake, (No need to type in "eastern" separately as no one looking for that snake would only type in "eastern." They may well type in the others singularly or as a phrase. You will also want to use crotalus adamanteus.

2.

Order doesn't matter.

3.

If you are searching and sorting by vertical and horizontal the program only knows the pixels the way you have it uploaded. If you want to present it both ways you will have to upload one version horizontal and one vertical.

Mike is right about spam tagging, be careful on that.

Spam tagging.....

OK, I am one of the moderators here and also one of he people that artists report spam tagging to get fixed.

Spam tagging is putting in tags that do not apply to the image. It does NOT help you sell or get seen and simply irritates the potential customer. A customer looking for a snake or a crab or a bear does NOT want to see a peacock. If you are found to be spam tagging you will basically be given 24 hours to remove them (or explain it if it really does apply.) After that time all your tags from all your images may be removed and you get to start over again which o course is a pain.

I know you are new but you really need to fix this issue now and you can consider this a formal notice.



These tags do NOT apply to the above image.

fauna framed prints, zoo framed prints, animal framed prints, insect framed prints, crab spider framed prints, bumblebee framed prints, spider framed prints, duck framed prints, bear framed prints, snake framed prints, eastern diamondback rattlesnake framed prints, rattlesnake framed prints, viper framed prints, zebra framed prints, flamingo framed prints, ibis framed prints, peacock framed prints, swallow framed prints, thomisidae framed prints, lavender framed prints, fauna greeting cards, zoo greeting cards, animal greeting cards, insect greeting cards, crab spider greeting cards, bumblebee greeting cards, spider greeting cards, duck greeting cards, bear greeting cards, snake greeting cards, eastern diamondback rattlesnake greeting cards, rattlesnake greeting cards, viper greeting cards, zebra greeting cards, flamingo greeting cards, ibis greeting cards, peacock greeting cards, swallow greeting cards, thomisidae greeting cards, lavender greeting cards, fauna prints, zoo prints, animal prints, insect prints, crab spider prints, bumblebee prints, spider prints, duck prints, bear prints, snake prints, eastern diamondback rattlesnake prints, rattlesnake prints, viper prints, zebra prints, flamingo prints, ibis prints, peacock prints, swallow prints, thomisidae prints, lavender prints, fauna posters, zoo posters, animal posters, insect posters, crab spider posters, bumblebee posters, spider posters, duck posters, bear posters, snake posters, eastern diamondback rattlesnake posters, rattlesnake posters, viper posters, zebra posters, flamingo posters, ibis posters, peacock posters, swallow posters, thomisidae posters, lavender posters

Same applies to this.



BTW, this is actually a western diamondback rattlesnake and not an eastern. Crotalus atrox.

Argh! Argh! Argh again!

I have been batch tagging related pictures in a same gallery with the same tags. It is all wrong, then. I will have to retag ALL my pics. Thanks for the formal notice but I would go and fix this anyway. There is normally one way to do things right and many to do them wrong. I will get to it immediately.

Third question solved itself. Didn't know it takes time to appear in all places. The picture is there now.

Another question if you don't mind:

I have been overlooking descriptions in favor of tags, considering it redundant and thinking people will not read them Am I totally wrong as I have read in a tutorial?

Thanks to all of you in advance for your help and patience.

Yupp, the description can and will sell the image in many instances.

First off, google has now put much more emphasis on descriptions and titles. (They actually did this because of spam tagging btw) So, that description is critical for Google, and being found there can and does lead to sales.

Secondly, if you can draw the potential customer into the story you are trying to convey it can and does lead to sales.

This image sat in my portfolio for a while with no interest. One day I had a dream that made me think of the image; I changed the title and I wrote out a description to express my feelings but it obviously affected viewers as well as it suddenly began making me money.



I put this one up this morning and spent more time writing out the description than I did editing the image. Will it make a difference? Time will tell. Regardless, you have a couple examples of how I do things. No, they are not always that detailed in the description but if I think it could help, I do just that.

Suppose you have several images of the same scene, say, boats in a harbor in Belfast Maine. Can you, or should you, use the same keyword set?

About the descriptions. Some read them . Some don't. If they want information about the photo like what the subject is or where it was they will look in the description , not the tags. You could be losing sales without them. If you only want to sell to people that never have questions about what the subject is or about the location or other things than don't put description in. For me I want to increase my chances of selling , so I am always working to improve my descriptions. Also if you want search engines like Google images to know what your images is and have a chance at being in their very popular searches you will need to put in descriptions. Web search engines rely on titles and descriptions more than keywords to catalog images.

Well, I have an almost overwhelming task ahead, then, until I have my currently uploaded photos correctly retagged, renamed and described. This is going to take some time, so I ask the moderators to be patient with me.

Thanks to all for the help and advice.

Geoffrey, yes, the if the same tags apply, use them for the set of images. I do it all the time.

No worries Weston, we know you are new.

You have an hour. ... hahaha sorry. . Joke. Hi and welcome

tagging is a pain, and you can use the same words. like if you have one or more peacocks you can add that. but remember to add things like fowl and bird and stuff like that. tags take the longest, but are important. remember to add that plural though, the search can't see those.

and your own name.

---Mike Savad

Yes, I can attest to that. It is a head-aching pain that I am suffering right now. I am following your advice and adding plurals and generic words. I have reedited 30 of my 229 uploads and will not be uploading any more pictures until I am done. Thank God I asked and you replayed so fast...

You can upload without a description, so you can get the uploading part done, but it is wise to go back and add them all in. I find it easier to just get it done right the first time. Even if it takes weeks.

I am learning the tough way that batch tagging should not be attempted except in such situations as the one I am in. It is far harder to do the tagging, tittleing and describing with gusto after the first twenty pictures. I am calling it a day at 40. Will retake tomorrow.

Ups... got another question.

I just tagged one photo with those words:

france, town, medieval, middle age, middle, age, dordogne, perigord, bergerac, wood, wooden, tiles, street, streets, window, brickwork, brick, bricks, shutter, shutters

when I submit the picture, what I get is:

Tags: france photographs, town photographs, medieval photographs, middle age photographs, middle photographs, france canvas prints, france iphone cases, town canvas prints, town iphone cases, medieval canvas prints, medieval iphone cases, middle age canvas prints, middle age iphone cases, middle canvas prints, middle iphone cases

and

Additional Tags
france framed prints, town framed prints, medieval framed prints, middle age framed prints, middle framed prints, age framed prints, dordogne framed prints, perigord framed prints, bergerac framed prints, wood framed prints, wooden framed prints, tiles framed prints, street framed prints, streets framed prints, window framed prints, brickwork framed prints, brick framed prints, bricks framed prints, shutter framed prints, shutters framed prints, france greeting cards, town greeting cards, medieval greeting cards, middle age greeting cards, middle greeting cards, age greeting cards, dordogne greeting cards, perigord greeting cards, bergerac greeting cards, wood greeting cards, wooden greeting cards, tiles greeting cards, street greeting cards, streets greeting cards, window greeting cards, brickwork greeting cards, brick greeting cards, bricks greeting cards, shutter greeting cards, shutters greeting cards, france prints, town prints, medieval prints, middle age prints, middle prints, age prints, dordogne prints, perigord prints, bergerac prints, wood prints, wooden prints, tiles prints, street prints, streets prints, window prints, brickwork prints, brick prints, bricks prints, shutter prints, shutters prints, france posters, town posters, medieval posters, middle age posters, middle posters, age posters, dordogne posters, perigord posters, bergerac posters, wood posters, wooden posters, tiles posters, street posters, streets posters, window posters, brickwork posters, brick posters, bricks posters, shutter posters, shutters posters


So, the web is displaying the first five tags first and then the rest, adding some extra concepts. Does it matter wether the tagas are in the first group or in the second? Why are there tags and additional tags?

the site will add on extra spam words for the things that you sell. it divides them up for some reason. i'd rather see it all on the bottom to keep it clean, but no choice right now.

---Mike Savad

the site will add on extra spam words for the things that you sell

The are not spam words. They are to help you be found for what you sell. NOT spam

Ok. Thanx.

Ok - I'm not exactly new here and I've tried to be accurate about keywords/tags and not throw in everything but the kitchen sink but I keep running across dozens of artists who have far more tags at the top under the image than I do and they aren't repeats as Weston's example would be. I never get anything but the first five tags to show up at the top and not always everything I want in the additional tags either. Why is that? I just looked at an image that had 7 lines of tags just below the image and far more characters than is supposed to be allowed. How does that happen for some people...and I get an error notice that I can't go over a certain number of characters. I won't say where I found this but this is an example of what I mean...these are the tags at the top of the page just below the image:

vintage iron. old books. directory of the city of norwalk photographs, ohio 1909-10. butterfly. white and yellow flower. daisy. green leaves. textured painting . canvas. photography. digital art. digital painting. oil paintings. still life. fine art. nature.poster. greeting card. mother's day cards. birthday greeting card. phone skins. photographs, vintage iron. old books. directory of the city of norwalk canvas prints, vintage iron. old books. directory of the city of norwalk iphone cases, ohio 1909-10. butterfly. white and yellow flower. daisy. green leaves. textured painting . canvas. photography. digital art. digital painting. oil paintings. still life. fine art. nature.poster. greeting card. mother's day cards. birthday greeting card. phone skins. canvas prints, ohio 1909-10. butterfly. white and yellow flower. daisy. green leaves. textured painting . canvas. photography. digital art. digital painting. oil paintings. still life. fine art. nature.poster. greeting card. mother's day cards. birthday greeting card. phone skins. iphone cases.
This image has twenty one words or phrases before they begin to repeat. Then there was a list at the bottom half again as long.

But on my most recent post - or one of them - these are the key words I used - u.s.navy, navy, spanish_american_war, victory, ships, fleet, battle, lianne_schneider, caribbean, blockade, cuba, flag-ship, uss_brooklyn, remember_the_maine, steamships, cruisers, santiago_de_cuba, harbor, surrender, spanish_fleet, spain,

And this is what my primary set of tags looks like - u.s.navy digital art, navy digital art, spanish_american_war digital art, victory digital art, ships digital art, u.s.navy canvas prints, u.s.navy iphone cases, navy canvas prints, navy iphone cases, spanish_american_war canvas prints, spanish_american_war iphone cases, victory canvas prints, victory iphone cases, ships canvas prints, ships iphone cases

As you can see, I only got 5 of my keywords in the top set before they started to repeat. I don't see the rest of the keywords I worked so hard to come up with until the additional tags at the bottom of the page. Am I doing something wrong here in the way I'm tagging or choosing keywords?

I've noticed this pattern of excess tags a lot and often on images that are selling well which leads me to believe that the extra tags some people are using are helpful. But I continue to be restricted to a limited number of keywords/characters in the first place and to only five of those appearing in the primary tag lines.

Any guidance would be appreciated!!
Thanks,
Lianne

Oh one more question - I was told early on that if I have a phrase as a keyword I have to put an underscore between the words or they won't link. But I don't see that anywhere else. Actually that would seem to limit the hits in searches. Can I just put war, Spanish American war, Santiago de Cuba, etc??

for starters, all extra lines are at the bottom. don't add _ underscores, they aren't needed and unless they are a time traveler from 1985, not many use those any more.

it would be easier to see the image your looking at.

if it's just a card, you will only get like 8 words.


the top set are no different than the stuff at the bottom. i don't know why he divides them like that. the top represents the front of the keywords, what are first would be those. you don't have to add the phone skins and the like, the system does that already and since not all sites sell them, it will only add confusion. but really in order to answer these i need to see the list of words used, copied from your tag box and the image.


---Mike Savad

I did that Mike - provided a list of the keywords from my tag box and then gave you the tag lines FAA put under my image. As I said - only the first five keywords were used in the primary tag lines whereas in the other person's work, 21 keywords were used. None of my images are ever just a card. And the point I was making is that in some images all the extra taglines are NOT at the bottom - they're at the top for some people.

Here's the link to the image I was talking about - mine, that is. I'm not ratting out the other person - lol. But you can see for yourself that only five words get used in the primary set. Here's the list in the tag box again too - u.s.navy, navy, spanish_american_war, victory, ships, fleet, battle, lianne_schneider, caribbean, blockade, cuba, flag-ship, uss_brooklyn, remember_the_maine, steamships, cruisers, santiago_de_cuba, harbor, surrender, spanish_fleet, spain

well I didn't do that link correctly apparently so let's just forget the hot link (I don't seem to be able to find how to put a hot link in a discussion)

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/victorious-navy-1898-lianne-schneider.html

first get rid of the underscores.

to copy a link, paste in the code provided under the colored squares on the right.

i think mostly it's a space issue, not a word issue.



if you listed out boat,ship,battle etc - it will list out those things. but i think it's a total character limit. your words are long phrases, which will bump the other ones off. in either case i wouldn't worry about that, but do remove the underscores because the search doesn't know from that.


---Mike Savad

Newbie here, just joined FAA this week and I've been working on getting my tags right, and also working on putting more artwork up. Is there a group for newbies with digital art and also can we get a critique on our tags? Any information or help would be appreciated. I'm still finding my way around this site, there's lots of stuff to check out.

nope,

don't add art, digital art, and anything related to that. the system adds it.


your missing words like flag,flags (plurals too), your name, red, white,stripes,wavy,american flag, etc.

add real descriptions so we know what we are looking at and why, rather than explaining the watermark.


you can see the repeats in the keywords with the extras you added in there. the loupe is off, but i see noise in the background, it may not print.

most people aren't going to type in original as a keyword. it's better to focus on what it is we are looking at.


---Mike Savad

"leave out spaces" Mike? So you're saying don't use the tag "Whitetail Deer" but use "WhitetailDeer" instead? Who would search that? Or are you saying don't even bother with "Whitetail Deer" and just use "Whitetail" and "Deer" separately? Although you did say use phrases. So how do you use a phrase without a space? So I was thinking I should use all three tags, "Whitetail" and "Deer" and "Whitetail Deer" in there. Or is that redundant? I'm confused.

JC, you say Google puts more emphasis on titles and descriptions now. So would it be a good or bad idea to change titles? Doesn't that change the URL to that image and break the links from any existing posts out there on FB, Pinterest, etc? Would the advantages of having a more descriptive title outweigh the loss of all those links?

no... deer,deers

not deer, deers. the space counts as a character. don't join the words together. as for whitetail - - whitetail,deer,whitetail deer,whitetail deers,deers and then of course white tail deer,white tail deers.




google right now (they change every few minutes), wants answers to questions. so if you explain things and give meat to your description they like it. but you can't use wiki or source it exactly as written from other sites, because they punish you for that. changing the title does break the link, but i found it to not hurt sales. however it's simply best to have a good description. the more words the better you chances are at being found. but don't start adding random words.

the title i use for the buyers, i think a clever title works better than a dry one.


---Mike Savad

OK, so you mean don't use spaces between tags, but spaces within tags are OK. I think I got it now. Thanks Mike.

As for titles, would it be bad to use both descriptive and creative phrases in the same title? So, I have a deer painting titled "Follow Me" but who looking for deer is going to Google that title? So what if I title my image "Deer Painting - Follow Me"? Would that be bad?

right

mike savad,greatest,of them all

would be right

mikesavad - would not be right - however i do include it anyway because some do search it that way.

my titles all follow a pattern, i title them so they nest in zazzle. maybe it helps categorize them in google as well. so like --- Fireman - It's a good day to set fires -- or something like that. i try not to make them too long or obvious.

---Mike Savad

Mike, why do you say spaces are a bad thing? I see that, when adding a new image, FAA's own example of tags uses spaces. So where did you read/hear that we should not use them?

Argh... hope the answer to this one suits me or I have a lot of new work ahead:

What is the difference between tagging "car,cars,vehicle" and "car, cars, vehicle"? Anything apart from adding blanks that reduce the character amount you can use? Does it affect searches?

It doesn't say to use or not use the space but it does count as a character. You can use them and it won't hurt you EXCEPT that each space is 1/500 characters you are allowed so if you use all 500 you are limiting yourself with the space.

without the spaces you gain about 50 characters and since you have to add alternate variations and plurals to every word or sets of words. the space is eaten really fast.

the difference between - "car,cars,vehicle" and "car, cars, vehicle" - is 2 characters. doesn't sound like a lot but it adds up fast.


---Mike Savad

Ok. Thanks. I have reached the 500 limit sometimes, but it is not that usual. However, that limit makes multi-language tagging next to impossible.

After reading the comments here, I looked and also see that in the new list of tags in blue on the right, it uses the first 5, then repeats only these with canvas prints, etc.
But these are the links that would actually take someone to all images on FAA with that tag - correct? Which really doesn't help us as individual artists. So maybe not having more here is really not that bad for me?

And - all of my tags are listed at the bottom - so I can assume one of those may have actually been what brought the viewer to see my image - and so that choosing the best for the first 5 may not be that important for me?
But would it still be best if the most searched for words were, in fact, those first 5?

Not that only some of these tags are listed in two places at each image, but with different intentions - it is way too confusing! What IS the intention?

Oh, OK. So eliminating spaces is just a space saver, and has no effect on searches. I can't usually think of enough relevant keywords to use all 500 characters anyway so it's not much of an issue for me.

i've had well over 700 characters. what gets you is the singular, plural and phrases with those two combined, adding spaces between words that don't have it but might have it and any misspellings a word might have. alternate variations of the object, latin names for animals and flowers.the list goes one.

the words on the right are truncated. if you click on more, it will show the rest of them. it's about a mile and a half long right now. you'll only get like keywords if your selling cards.


---Mike Savad

Thank you, Mike - I did click to see the very long list!
The tags at the bottom 'Additional tags' just repeat what is already in the ridiculously long list on the right - and I have nowhere near the max of 500 for any image!
again, what is the point to this?

And while I didn't choose to sell on iphone cases, I noticed that the tags, for example squirrel, are combined with iphone cases - squirrel iphone cases -

so would someone searching for iphone cases with squirrel images be directed to my image because this is listed, then find that it isn't available?
Either way it seems to be very misleading and confusing....

as far as i know the list "tricks google (they do catch on and do punish), into thinking or seeing all those links. and when someone types in those words you get the link that leads back to the search on faa.

the iphone thing is the most confusing item we have, and it was stated that its there because he wants to populate google and once done it will be removed. but by then the customers will have come and gone not finding the things. if it's on pixels then the extra tags should be posted there. ironically though while we can't sell them here for some reason, they are made here. so when it's customized on pixels, there is a FAA address. it's all kind of confusing.

the more keywords you have the better


i'd add - face,cute,cheeks,stuffing,eating,eat,ate,furry,hairy,animal,rodent,rodents,fuzzy,rodentia,vermin,bird seed,face,striped,stripes, and so on. before you know it, no more space, also add your name in different variations.

---Mike Savad

ok, another question if google uses our titles for a search then should we be putting exactly what it is in stead of a cute made up title

for instance

red rose ( seems to me everyone would have a red rose}
rather than
scarlet passion of some other made up name

I can see that I do need to go back into early posting and work on key words and descriptions but I did not want to have to change titles too

I have seen a lot of things crop up when I do a search for example I might do a search of New York and many times images that have nothing to do with New York come up, but in the keywords they are using many things that are not related to the image at all It is not one or two, I see it across the boards.

Also today I did a search of a item and the first page images were surprising to me, more than half had no description. So FAA is telling us that these things are important in search , but then here are people on page one with none---I am in a puzzlement and don't understand how I have a chance of ever getting seen on a search. It is discouraging and it make one wonder if this is the right place to be showing their items

thing is, you can't be ruled by the google. it uses everything on the page and dead boring uninteresting titles won't attract buyers. let the google use the descriptions and keywords. i've seen some images sell just because of the suggestive title.

if you did the search in the search - on faa, it doesn't look at the description at all. for google as long as you at least have keywords then you'll be ok, but it also depends how well linked you are around the net.

as far as the pages go, it's only based on sales. they don't all come from a search, some just walk into the store.

overall you can't depend on any search. which is why you have to plaster your links everywhere you can.


---Mike Savad

but in the very end, people have to like your images, it won't matter how your rank, they have to like them.


---Mike Savad

"thing is, you can't be ruled by the google. it uses everything on the page and dead boring uninteresting titles won't attract buyers. let the google use the descriptions and keywords..."

Mike and/or Abbie:

I know I've read more than once in these FAA discussions that the KEYWORDS (aka TAGS) we enter are for searches on the FAA site, not for Google Search....and that titles and descriptions are the only things Google picks up on our individual FAA pages. Is that not correct?

Mike - I didn't expect that you would actually look at my chipmunk photo! I thank you for the wonderful tag suggestions - it made me laugh - I never heard of 'rodentia' - love it! Seriously, I see the point, including adding my name in the keywords. I just added your suggestions and a few more - and I'm at 500!

It helps to know that there are different things being tracked in the various searches.
Thank you for taking time to answer me and everyone else in this discussion.
- Andrea

Really good question, Susan...so relevant to recent Discussions..........Abbie?


(Posted from temp h.q....my ipad. ,lol.....)

@susan - google will get EVERYTHING. every comment, location of people, description, titles, the image itself, etc. it likes finding information and what image its looking at for more accurate results. the tags are for both searches. google is more likely to find your images than this search ever could.


@andrea - rodentia is a the genus for rodents i believe. i came across it on pest sites. while these things are cute, they are as annoying as rats, and many capture them because they destroy gardens. so selling this from to anyone who's into animals, including the vet, to exterminators. you have to be creative.


---Mike Savad

Mike - thanks for the information about Google. Unless FAA management has different input to give here, I'll take your word for it.

OK, I have "wolf painting" in my title, keywords, and description here on FAA. I also have those words in my meta tags, image file name, alt tags, and text descriptions on my own website. Despite all that, my wolf paintings do not show up from either site when I do a search for "wolf painting" on Google. They have been out there for years, so it's not just that Google hasn't gotten to indexing them yet. Ugh. What does it take? So frustrating when you feel like you're doing everything right and you're still lost at sea. :(

Most of my images I can not locate on Google if I look by subject matter. I am always surprised when I hear people say their search came in from Google. Really ?
I imagine it is a popularity issue. You would have to have an obscure image/ location to be able to rise to the top. Of 100's of thousands, if not millions.

& Wolves... well, everyone loves them.

I am just not in that genre. Everyone paints a pretty Sunflower... ( sigh...)

I'm getting a headache. Tags and keywords - bah,humbug,blech.
Adding keywords and tags, and changing them, is a never-ending job, it seems, and can be a confusing one too - so I thank you for the clarifications. :)

I got a new question. Read somewhere (don't remember where because I am reading too much of too many things at the same time to diminish my ignorance about blogging) that it is better to use "-" than an empty space " " when using long tail tags. I mean it is better to write "dog-sleeping" than "dog sleeping" because the system translates the " " into "%20". Is that right?

only spaces because otherwise it becomes a part of the word and will be impossible to search for. %20 is only for urls and the system would do that no matter what. it knows to translate it back. tags should always be just words no underscores either.


---Mike Savad

Thank you Mike. And by the way, thank you also for your dependability and equanimity.

Do plurals really matter if the spelling is not different? I mean, it might be good to use "wolf" and "wolves" because the spelling changes but what about "bird" and "birds"? Aren't most search engines, including FAA's search, smart enough to know they are the same thing and show both in the results?

no, this search does not find plurals on it's own.

unfortunately the search is not at all advanced and you have to hand feed it word,words so every word you have you have to add the S or you won't be seen. we are used to using google for the fact it can find alternate meanings of words and names, and do the plural, but this is very direct. it's easy to eat up your characters.

---Mike Savad