Critiques And Suggestions On Art Page

Seconded

Sounds about right.

Fourthed.

Say what you want on mine. I will leave it. don't really care if it is positive or negative

I agree with JC.

I agree - but - Anyone mind if "I" ask what brought that on?

HD - don't wake up the alligator.

Also, agreed. However, I did not know we had the ability to delete comments from others. I'll take a look.

@ Roy; Not fraid of no Gator!
LOL!

I have a question on that - I deleted a critique comment under one of mine and the subsequent reply I made to the original commenter. The comment is gone, and so is my reply in the regular view on my page, but in the activity thread, my response to the comment is still showing even though I deleted it under the image???

it doesn't happen often, but when i get a critique on it, it's deleted as soon as i see it. not the place for it and i know i didn't ask.

---Mike Savad

It probably is that search wait thing going on Mary

I completely agree, JC.

Abbie - I deleted it a few days ago.

Oh well, it's only showing in the activity view which buyers don't see anyway, so it's not that big a deal.

I agree. I recently sold a print to someone in Springfield, MA and one of the new 'congratulations' comments asked 'if that was just glare in the upper right hand corner? Well it was not and I promptly deleted the comment and sure enough, the buyer came back twice to look at it. If he had seen the comment he would have thought something was wrong with the print! People don't think before they write.

eleventhed.

Unsolicited critique doesn't belong anywhere, IMO.

just to be suuuure............

Is stating that you enjoy some one's use of composition or contrasting color in a comment considered a critique ?

I sure do hope not.

I value comments that say something along the lines of "love the composition, use of colors, great light," et cetera, et cetera. I don't consider those critiques, or if they are, at least they're positive.

But a comment such as "great piece, but it would look even better if you cloned out the tree in the corner" or even "what's that funky-looking thing in the background?" is a critique and I would delete that immediately.

Many people do read comments when they're thinking of buying (I know I do), and anything there can have a subliminal effect on the reader. Positive remarks can help sell a piece; negative remarks (or even so-called "helpful" ones) can ruin a potential sale.

From my perspective, anything positive, use of color, composition, etc is absolutely fine. If it can help the image sell then great.

The critique that generated this thread read something along the lines of this.

Absolutely beautiful. I recommend you crop out some of the top because the water is centered, (My guess is a recommendation for use of the rule of thirds?) and straighten it out as the water is tilted and wants to pour off the right of the page. If you did that it would be a perfect 10. (paraphrased as I deleted the comment and am writing from memory.

Actually, the water IS tilted slightly but considering this image is one of my top sellers and has produced over a grand in revenue, AND is hanging above me as I type this as a 36 inch framed print and I have not noticed it before it does not seem to be a lim factor on it. Now, had this been a PM, I would actually be appreciative of the critique, but there is no place for such things on a page clients look at.

Now, since I straighten everything I wondered if this was right and how I missed it. The reality is the water is .32 degrees off tilt. Most eyes will not catch that but I generally do. That said, I straightened this image off the Capitol Building which is where the eye focuses and it IS dead straight. As far as the rule of thirds, I OFTEN split water down the middle and could care less what the rules say in those images, the second one below is also split and also a top seller regardless of splitting the water though it has also got private critique on not using the rule of thirds.





Again, I always welcome critique in private but the sales site page is NOT the place to give negative ones.

I agree on the un asked for "critique", ...
and if everyone follows "rules" and does everything with the "proper" technique, there will be no originality and everyones stuff is all going to look similar. I already see far too much that looks the same as it is now. All the same = boring.

A big part of knowing the "rules" of photography is knowing when to break them.....:-)

They call it art because there IS no hard and fast rules you have to follow each and every time.

[quote] Say what you want on mine. I will leave it. don't really care if it is positive or negative [quote]

I completely agree with H. Drew. Sometimes we get far too caught up, in calling every little bit of constructive criticism "negative". An honest comment (feedback), is not necessarily a "negative" comment. I think most of us, if we are completely honest with ourselves, are able to tell the difference between "constructive" and "negative". And if completely honest with ourselves, we may quite often agree with the "constructive" ones. Purely "negative" and or obvious "revenge" comments, would be deleted from my page.

Also, I never really get a whole lot of positive comments (or otherwise), so bring on the "constructive" ones, if nothing else it will help in the search. :) I do not think a buyer is going to decide on a purchase, based on critiques. They will either like it, or not like it. I do not decide on going to a movie, based on a bunch of "stuffy critiques", but I bet the movie makers pay close attention to them???

We are not selling the artwork to OURSELVES. A constructive critique from a fellow member, or better yet a buyer, may lead me to make a change, that will help an image sell better.


EDIT - However, if the majority of people from FAA do not want "honest" comments below their work and are just looking for people to "blow smoke" [edit] sorry if "blow smoke" offended. For me this term is in reference to having our "ears tickled" and it was not meant to offend [edit], FAA should include a message at the top of the Comment section, that makes it clear. As fellow members (artists), we may understand the "unwritten rule (policy)", but a buyer may not.

EDIT2 - I have used the "Critique" groups a few times and it led me to make some changes to one of my images, which I reloaded to different sites (off FAA) and received great feedback on the changes. I have also decided not to post a certain image, based on feedback here. The "honest" opinion of the image I decided to delete is a GREAT thing. If a buyer goes to your profile and there is art there that is just not "up to snuff", that may be one of the first images viewed and you could lose that potential buyer "for good".

Sometimes I do not even have time to look at my comments --, so it is a good thing you noticed the negative remark in time Loretta. After reading of the option to do so in a previous discussion I went ahead and made the comments not show on my AW page. I am not sure if it makes much difference.
I agree a negative remark does not belong on the the comment section for potential buyers to see.

it's not about good or bad critiques - it's getting them and displaying them on your store - it's not professional. this isn't a critique site, and none should be given unless asked, and only then in private or off the image. you just don't want to divert the buyer. i don't think anyone needs to be reminded that comments like that aren't needed in a store.

there are groups just for critiques if you don't know how to critique yourself. that's what it's for, not under the image.

---Mike Savad

Tiny, is there anything you won't argue?

Seriously, if you want "honest" critique on your image on a sales page then great. If YOU do not pay attention to movie critiques then wonderful. But, there are in fact many people that do pay attention to such things and will not go to a movie with a bad critique. When it comes down to it, even an "honest" minor critique can point out things the buyer wouldn't notice and wouldn't have even cared about until it was pointed out. This is a commerce site and NOT a how to improve your images site. This is not Facebook or Flickr. Most artists are here to sell. Hey, if someone genuinely wants to help you, unsolicited or not, then send a PM. The artist gets the message and can make the improvements in private, not in public.

[quote] also a top seller regardless of splitting the water though it has also got private critique on not using the rule of thirds. [quote]

@ JC,

I like the way Loree put it

[quote] A big part of knowing the "rules" of photography is knowing when to break them.....:-)[quote]

I think that is the hardest part to lean. Most photographers follow the "same" basic rules. I think it is the one's who know how to break them, that really stand out from the rest.

I never learned any rules in photography and have purposely never read anything about them. With my flower shots, I compose based on how I feel right then. Some do not work out, but I have had comments on other sites, where I am told the "rules" were broken, but that it works and they like it because it is different. :)

Over the years, our eyes become accustomed to the norm. The "rules" for photography, were probably based on what the eye likes to see in an image. I think my attention is more drawn to something (to linger), when it is something that my eye is NOT used to seeing and is NOT the norm.

@ JC,

Why when I share my "opinion" do you call it arguing? Is it arguing, simply because I did not entirely agree with YOU?

Come on. I did not see you get after H. Drew, for not "agreeing" with you. :)

EDIT - I actually agreed with H. Drew, but then expanded on why.

What 's the big deal. Why so sensitive?

EDIT2 - in fact, you will see nowhere on the thread you are complaining about, any mention of me "disagreeing" with you personally. I was sharing my opinion, like everyone else in this thread.

GEEZ. There are threads I will "argue / debate" on. This was not one of them, at least not till I get singled out for sharing my opinion.

@ JC,

I think part of the problem here, is that I look at what I am doing with photography / art, very differently than how you, or some others in this thread might.

For me, it is a hobby that I really enjoy and that maybe some day "might" pay for itself. I have a job and do not "need", the extra money. (I put "need" in quotes, because a little more money never hurts - I would love a good quality macro lens!)

You will notice, that ALL my images are down right now. (I did not kill the link, just replaced the image for a short time). I got some some new software and I think I can do better with those same images. I would rather have a placeholder there, that someone may come back to later, than have them see something that is "sub-standard" and NEVER come back.

I understand that not everyone is going to look at "comments" and/or "critiques" the same way. We are not all here for the same reasons. For some people here, it may be their only source of income and if that is the case, I could understand why they might not want "critiques" on the gallery page.

HOWEVER,

I still think having comments good or NOT-SO-GOOD, is a not a bad thing. If a buyer actually takes the time to read the comments, then they are really interested in your art (or that specific piece already caught their eye). If they see one of the not-so-good comments, they may even go back up to your image and take a "closer" look. That is a great thing. What is the hardest part of e-commerce. Getting buyers to the page and even harder, getting buyers to STAY on the page. Chances are they will not agree with the comment, because the image already caught their eye and they LIKE it. I will still maintain that a buyer who liked the work and it caught their eye when first opened, is not going to base their purchase, on a few not-so-good comments. They only way I can see that happening, is if they were buying original work for investment purposes and were truly looking for specific technicalities in art work. I would say a very "tiny" percentage of the Giclee Prints being purchased on this site, are not being purchased for future investment value, they are being purchased because the buyer LIKES it, it is a subject they are interested in and it matches the colour on their walls, or their couch. :) (Especially with the photography)


EDIT - I am not arguing, it is just my opinion. To each their own. Delete the criticism. What I do not understand, is why post a thread, expecting everyone to agree with you. If you disagree with my point of view, tell me and explain why. That's a "discussion". :)


EDIT2 - [quote] looking for people to "blow smoke"[quote]

If this is the part that got you upset, sorry. It may be a little bit of a "edgy" way of putting it. I worked in construction for the last 20 years and the term "blowing smoke" was used a lot when someone only wanted to hear what "tickled" their ears. Sorry if it offended.

I agree. If someone wants to offer some constructive critique i would prefer they did it by PM. I would hate a potential buyer to be put off an image due to a remark someone has made

the other side of it is - the person making the comment looks petty. so if my cute little face appears on an image and i tell them it's crooked and blurry, etc - it could make it seem that i'm just bad mouthing the competition, and that makes me look bad.

buyers won't look at your images that close. and if someone pointed out a flaw - that's all they will see. and if they actually buy it, that's all they will see. it's like learning how a magic trick works and then all you are looking for is the gimic. people are very impressionable, and it doesn't take much to make them keep moving on. people can be very happy to see that image, and when i point out that they sky is blown out etc, bye bye customer. they won't look at the rest of your stuff from there on. there are so many other people to look at.


it really doesn't take much to sour someone. many people just like going with the flow, and if you point something out, they will see it.

this place is the goal. it's the store. there are many other sites you can learn on, this isn't one of them. the fact that we discuss such things, well that's rare. you won't see that in most other places. many make the mistake that all they have to do is upload images and they will start selling, but that's not true. and it doesn't help to have a comment that sounds negative.

go to a restaurant - announce that you found a finger in your chili. or some other thing that could fall off accidentally - see how many others don't want to take the chance and leave right after you.

---Mike Savad

Tiny… "hobby or livelihood"... comments can make a difference in closing the sale or not…

i was in competition for a sculptural piece for the entryway of a bank building and was fortunate enough to be chosen... until that is, a couple of drunk employees made what they thought was funny comment about the maquette i presented. Now what they said was nothing like the sculpture represented or looked it like... also they had nothing to do with the selection process… but what they said was passed on to others and eventually reached the decision makers... even though the decision makers could not see what the commenters said about it, they had second thoughts about the sculpture, i lost the commission, and in there indecision and doubt they decided maybe a piece of art was not what they needed at the time … the bank never commission anyone and the entranceway is void of art...

So, as far as i'm concerned a negative, flippant or rude comment can sour a sale… thank you very much…
i did however sell the piece a few years later to a private collector.

@ Mike,

Do you really think that people base their purchases here, on whether there are "flaws"?

I mean, lets be realistic. These are Giclee Prints. (prints produced with inkjet). They are not originals that are being purchased for investment. How many images do you think are purchased on this site, after someone inspects them for flaws? Or do people buy here, because they like the colour, or the cute puppy, pretty flower, cool HDR effect, nice train, etc... etc...?

I agree with everything you are saying, for someone who is really paranoid about their work. I am not, which is why it would not bother me if someone left a "constructive" critique on one of my images, that was not just "negative".

I agree with others, who have said that PM is probably the "best" way to do it.

All I am saying, is that it would not bother ME. I am not speaking for what everyone else should want.

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My comment earlier about FAA making a note above the comments, was not for the members, but for random buyers who may not know any better. I think if I was a buyer and I left a "constructive" comment on someones art, came back a few days later and found it deleted, I would never buy ANY of their work. I think that when someone takes the time to "constructively" comment on my work, it means they are actually interested in it. They may come back to look again and buy something else of mine. (hypothetically speaking as I have not sold anything here.... YET)

[quote] So, as far as i'm concerned a negative, flippant or rude comment can sour a sale… thank you very much… [quote]

Oh dear. People are not fully reading posts again. I never said anything about "flippant and/or rude comments" being acceptable, anywhere on this thread. In fact if you read the entire thread, you will see very clearly where I say.

[quote]Purely "negative" and or obvious "revenge" comments, would be deleted from my page.[quote] - Posted by: Tiny by Nature on 05/21/2013 - 7:20 PM



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Of course, someone is probably going to accuse me of adding that in - after the fact. LOL :)

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@ Ed,

I would consider "Sculptures" to be in a very different league, than Giclee Prints. They are originals. People / Institutions are buying those, sometimes for very different reasons, than a home decorator is going to buy an inkjet print.

A sculpture, will be bought for future investment. Or, it is being purchased to make a real "statement" and not just to decorate.

Not sure if that makes sense and not meant to offend those of us who are selling prints.

EDIT
I can see where even a "constructive criticism", could greatly influence the purchase of a sculpture, never mind the rude comments of a couple of drunks.

yes. yes i do. people look at the art they might fall in love with it. then it just takes one person pointing something out to lose that sale. it doesn't take much. it doesn't have to go up in value. people are spending $400 for a print, + shipping. they are justifying the purchase, and if they see a reason not to get it, they may go with that and move on. if anything if a painting has a flaw, it might be a good thing because it could go up in value.

there is no way to know what images did not sell. and i don't know what they are looking for. why give them a chance? they might not be looking for the flaw, but if one is pointed out - they will see it.

it would bother most people. because there are other sites for the comments you want - like photosig.


---Mike Savad

for example, your buying a car. it's great, looks great, you can't wait to give them your money. someone points out that huge scratch running down the length of it. you did not see it, you would have driven off the lot with it like that. because of that comment, you went away without that car. and it's the car lot's lost sale, all because of a comment. and almost anything can hurt a sale.

this might be a hobby for you, but right now, this is my job.


---Mike Savad

Tiny,

You say you want critique because it might help you sell, but yet you never seem to listen to advice in the forums which can in fact help you sell. When you first came on, Mike gave you an honest critique and you became extremely defensive.

You say outright you have never sold anything here yet you claim to know that buyers would not care if there was an honest critique. Here is some honest advice; listen to the people that do sell and learn what does effect buyers and sales and do not base your selling strategies on how you would buy or what you would pay.

Potential buyers making comments? Total comments I have received on this site; 6432. Total comments received from people not also artists on this site? 0, or spelled out, Zero!

I DO count on this for 100% of my income right now so I do pay attention to such things.

Now, the difference between your comments and H Drew's. He stated his opinion and it is a valid one. Nothing argumentative about it. Yours had argumentative statements following the opinion. Then, you had three posts with multiple edits following that. Sorry dude, to me you seem to argue anything. The sky is blue. Well, on MARS it's RED! ROFLBO

(JC the artist typing btw)

Again Tiny, it's not all about you...
Because of you "Hobby" statement, this was directed to you... "Tiny… "hobby or livelihood"... comments can make a difference in closing the sale or not…"

the rest was a reference to my experience on how a comment in my case "Flippant" can ruin a sale on any level.

"because of that comment, you went away without that car."

That's not a good example. A huge scratch running down the length of the car is not someone's opinion, Mike, it's a physical fact. YES I would like someone to tell me about something like that. Wouldn't you?

Dan Turner
Dan Turner Fine Art
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online
To Enjoy Dan Turner's Pinterest Boards, Click Here

OK Dan, a small scratch on the bumper that is barely visible.

ok tiny, your on photosig - look for the first person to add a comment or a 1 green or a 1 red - and read the comments. then look at all the other comments that follow. they will almost always parrot the one who pointed out the flaw.

i remember posting a firetruck:


this one, the manager of the site pointed out and argued with me that they people should be looking at me. but that makes no sense because they are firemen doing their job, they should be looking at the fire. yet everyone else from that point on also said the same thing (if i remember right).

in the end - was she right? no, she wasn't. if i followed that advice, it wouldn't look natural. and it wouldn't have sold like 10 times in different forms.

now imagine if that comment was made in my store? well, i might not have made any sales because of that. a buyer should make up their own mind, and not get help from the peanut gallery.


---Mike Savad

Bottom line is, to those concerned a critical comment on ones sales sheet, and that's what your art page is,a sale sheet, has the potential to deter a possible customer and sale.
Your choice...

@ JC.

I completely understand now. So it is ok to post an opinion, as long as we don't follow it up with the "reasons" we have the opinion in the first place?


That makes absolutely no sense!!

What kind of discussion is that? Voice opinions and then not "discuss" why we have the opinion? Really?

What kind of education would we get in school if all we heard, were a bunch of "valid opinions" and no one bothered to share "why" they felt that way? How boring and useless would that be.

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JC, here is your OP
[quote] While I take every critique seriously and decide if I want to listen to it or not, the comments below the art are NOT the place to do such things. You can give a critique in the threads if asked for or if you want to provide an unsolicited critique, by all means send a PM but this is a sales site, not a photo sharing or review site and any comment that could possibly negatively effect sales should not be posted below the image.

If you do it to mine, I will simply delete the comment. [quote]

***let me break it down for you***

VALID OPINION

[quote] While I take every critique seriously and decide if I want to listen to it or not, the comments below the art are NOT the place to do such things [quote]

REASON YOU HAVE THE OPINION (or what you call Argumentative Comments - named such, as someone just might have a different opinion)

[quote] You can give a critique in the threads if asked for or if you want to provide an unsolicited critique, by all means send a PM but this is a sales site, not a photo sharing or review site and any comment that could possibly negatively effect sales should not be posted below the image.[quote]

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[quote] ou say you want critique because it might help you sell, but yet you never seem to listen to advice in the forums which can in fact help you sell. When you first came on, Mike gave you an honest critique and you became extremely defensive. [quote]

Touche. Although I will have to go back now and find that 1st post, because from what I remember, it was not very "constructive" at all and had really nothing to do with my actual photography. From what I remember, Mikes first few posts to me where along these lines.

You need bigger images..... You need more images..... You need bigger images..... You need more images.......

;)

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[quote] ou say outright you have never sold anything here yet you claim to know that buyers would not care if there was an honest critique. Here is some honest advice; listen to the people that do sell and learn what does effect buyers and sales and do not base your selling strategies on how you would buy or what you would pay. [quote]

Point taken.

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dan i'm speaking as the guy selling the car - not buying the car. that was a lost sale. it doesn't matter what was pointed out, it discouraged the buyer from buying the car - i am the salesman, i lost that sale.

or how about - a comment - boy that is a really ugly color. or only little girls would pick that color. or boy those seats are really uncomfortable. or the seat belt cuts my neck... all these things stop the sale. and as a car salesman, that's just bad for business.


---Mike Savad

[quote] his one, the manager of the site pointed out and argued with me that they people should be looking at me. but that makes no sense because they are firemen doing their job, they should be looking at the fire. yet everyone else from that point on also said the same thing (if i remember right). [quote]

I don't think I have ever come across her say a "positive" thing, about anyone's art on that site.

I would not take any comment from her all that seriously. ;)

tiny this isn't a school, this is the job. while sometimes you learn on the job, you went to school to do the job.

can you stop quoting things - this is very hard to read.

bigger images - yes. that was constructive. you were paranoid that your full size things were going to be stolen. so you uploaded stamp sized things. too small to sell. yet, you argued to the point of being kicked out (This was your first day).

people buy large images, the site prints clear images. and if you have no choices, sales will be low. they are bigger now, right?

---Mike Savad

[quote] That's not a good example. A huge scratch running down the length of the car is not someone's opinion, Mike, it's a physical fact. YES I would like someone to tell me about something like that. Wouldn't you? [quote]

@ Dan - EXACTLY

Pointing out a scratch on a car is hardly the same as someone having an "opinion", that a highlight in my image is too "blown out". For someone else, they may love the funky highlight and buy the image.

[quote] Say what you want on mine. I will leave it. don't really care if it is positive or negative [quote]

I completely agree with H. Drew. Sometimes we get far too caught up, in calling every little bit of constructive criticism "negative". An honest comment (feedback), is not necessarily a "negative" comment. I think most of us, if we are completely honest with ourselves, are able to tell the difference between "constructive" and "negative". And if completely honest with ourselves, we may quite often agree with the "constructive" ones. Purely "negative" and or obvious "revenge" comments, would be deleted from my page.

Also, I never really get a whole lot of positive comments (or otherwise), so bring on the "constructive" ones, if nothing else it will help in the search. :) I do not think a buyer is going to decide on a purchase, based on critiques. They will either like it, or not like it. I do not decide on going to a movie, based on a bunch of "stuffy critiques", but I bet the movie makers pay close attention to them???

We are not selling the artwork to OURSELVES. A constructive critique from a fellow member, or better yet a buyer, may lead me to make a change, that will help an image sell better.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Up to here you were stating an opinion. Below gets argumentative. Edit 1 is not backed up by fact but you state it as such. Majority? Blow Smoke? "honest" comments? Frankly, you know good and darn well your statement will offend as you even apologize for doing so.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


EDIT - However, if the majority of people from FAA do not want "honest" comments below their work and are just looking for people to "blow smoke" [edit] sorry if "blow smoke" offended. For me this term is in reference to having our "ears tickled" and it was not meant to offend [edit], FAA should include a message at the top of the Comment section, that makes it clear. As fellow members (artists), we may understand the "unwritten rule (policy)", but a buyer may not.

EDIT2 - I have used the "Critique" groups a few times and it led me to make some changes to one of my images, which I reloaded to different sites (off FAA) and received great feedback on the changes. I have also decided not to post a certain image, based on feedback here. The "honest" opinion of the image I decided to delete is a GREAT thing. If a buyer goes to your profile and there is art there that is just not "up to snuff", that may be one of the first images viewed and you could lose that potential buyer "for good".

it's not like i listen to her, but it doesn't matter, other people will follow the leader, so if she says something negative, others will follow, which was the main point. and she does say some positive things some of the time. but if your surrounded by bad images all the time, it does sour one's opinion, she was more up beat years ago. but anyway that strays from the subject - which is, a negative comment can influence a sale in a bad way.

in fact i'm turned off when someone types in - $ale because it think it looks tacky. i leave them there for a bit, and the next time i see them i remove them.


---Mike Savad

they might like that funky image - but the other 10 people didn't.

---Mike Savad

[quote] tiny this isn't a school, this is the job. while sometimes you learn on the job, you went to school to do the job. [quote]

@ Mike,

I was not comparing FAA to a school Mike. Read the post again. I was using an example of where sharing a valid opinion, without backing it up with some sort of reasoning, would be a complete waste of time.

I pointed out that when JC started the thread, his first post contained two parts.

1. the "valid" opinion
2. the reasoning / argument / ( or whatever else you darn well want to call it), that backs up the "valid opinion"

I am just more "word" than JC.

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EDIT 1 - And I use edits. (which JC does not seem to like very much) ;)

you weren't, i was.
you are hoping for people to point out your flaws, and because this isn't a school- your images shouldn't have the flaws.

when i edit i just edit unless it's a day later.

anyway, the final, finished, polished image should be here. anything else, send it through photosig first - if your not sure or can't rate it yourself.


---Mike Savad

[quote] Up to here you were stating an opinion. Below gets argumentative. Edit 1 is not backed up by fact but you state it as such. Majority? Blow Smoke? "honest" comments? Frankly, you know good and darn well your statement will offend as you even apologize for doing so. [quote]

@ JC.

I went back and added the [edits] to that original "blow smoke" comment, after writing a few more posts. I did not put the apology in, as I was writing the comment. THAT WOULD BE INSANITY!

Here is where I made the original comment - Posted by: Tiny by Nature on 05/21/2013 - 7:20 PM

Here is where I made the apology. - Posted by: Tiny by Nature on 05/21/2013 - 8:14 PM

***almost an hour later***

I re-read the post and realized it sounded harsh. After making the apology, a few posts after the original comment, I went back to the original comment and added the apology right in where it was first said.

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[quote] but this is a sales site, not a photo sharing or review site [quote]

this is part of your OP, that I would consider the "reason / argument" part of your post. Some people could have found this offensive?? Did you really think I thought this was a "photo sharing" site!!!! :O (how dare you)!!

;)

Having someone critique your work on your image sales page is like someone crashing your gallery opening and pointing out every little flaw to the guests you just invited while eating the wine, cheese and caviar you put out for them. When I did art shows there was always someone who would hang out in my show tent and tell my customers that a photo was too grainy, or that I should have used a different camera or used a different print method or frame. Send me a private message thanks and I'll do the same for you.

@ Bradford,

Now that is a great analogy!! Much better than Mike's, scratch on the car bumper. ;)

I think even Dan, would like yours. :)

Point well taken.
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EDIT - (i have to add one of these - it is the OCD) LOL

I ran a small show at a local art gallery, the first year I started taking pictures. (I was pretty proud of my work - boy did I have lots to learn) Paid $200 for the cottage and hung up about 30 pieces. 10 were framed and the rest I had displayed on foam board. I spent a lot of time working on getting that ready and actually had "good" attendance.

The brochures I passed around town, had "Tiny by Nature", with a bug on the front. Marketing was not my forte. LOL

If someone had shown up and crapped all over my work, even if it was constructive, I probably would have done everything in my power to "quietly" kick them out.

I get it now.

how so?

i'm selling cars, and i didn't make the sale. honestly....


---Mike Savad

Oh Tiny, you're like a crocodile. Once you bit into something you can't let go.

No matter what, I'm with JC on this one.
In the years I'm on FAA I got 2 "well meaning suggestions" ... I deleted both of them right away.
Then I took a close look at the poster's work, left a "well meaning suggestion" on his piece ... and watched my post disappear. LOL

I also deleted and delete comments like "Nice picture" or similar. They are of no value, so why keep them?!

@ Mike,

I just do not equate a scratch on a car, the same as a supposed "flaw" on an image.

A scratch on a car, is a DEFINITE FLAW. There is nothing else that it can be.


If someone makes an opinion on a photograph, that they "think" is a flaw, it very well might to be "them". To someone else, it might just be what they like.

A scratch on a car for sale, can never be anything but a "flaw", in the eyes of any person.

Here, let me try this debate thingy....

Not true, a scratch is not always a flaw but rather simply a sign that a truck has been used for what it is designed for and in the case of a work truck, scratches simply do not matter as much as that beautifully tuned 351 thundering through the duel exhaust and the Super Swampers below. Scratches smatches.

of course it is. but i want to make the sale. i don't care if the car is missing the engine and the two wheels on the opposite side of the car, once i make the sale, you own the car. the flaws don't matter. it's the fact that someone pointed them out - i lost the sale.

most may not notice a scratch on the bumper, or care. but it can affect the sale of the car.

just pointing it out is enough to prevent the sale.

2 weeks ago we bought a cake. i tasted a perfume or soap taste in it. others thought it was mold. we are now hesitant to buy anything from there again, even though we've been going there for years. now if i were to tell people the name of that place, chances are their sales would go down a lot - even if it was just that one cake, it can be enough to change someone's outlook of a place. the rest of the cakes may be totally fine. once it's spotted though, you lose business, even if there was nothing wrong with the cake, if people knew to look for that one thing, they may actually taste it.

but the main point is - we don't want comments that devalue the work any. there should be no reasons to not buy something. it's hard enough to sell in the first place.


---Mike Savad

[quote] Oh Tiny, you're like a crocodile. Once you bit into something you can't let go[quote]

@ Christine,

I like to debate. I think JC does too, or he would not be studying law.

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I think there are some people who are just not able to handle debate. ( I am not talking about JC). Their idea of a discussion is, OP shares "opinion" and then they share their "opinion". And that is that. End of story.

As soon as the OP comes back with a new argument to support his opinion or a different angle, they lose it and fall apart. Then they get upset and make comments like, "because the OP came back with a new supportive argument, then their comment is not being appreciated and they are being hounded."

The real problem is, they just do not understand what a rebuttal is.

Stating an opinion and the back and forth presentation of supportive arguments and rebuttals, is what discussion is. Neither side may ever agree with one another. In fact if it is true debate, both sides should be of such differing opinion, that they never agree.

But a good discussion, does not mean we all have agree with each other. How boring would that be. Although, if you take a close look at society today, that is how everyone [edit] a lot of people [edit] seems to want it. Some people seem to want a community of like minded individuals (not talking about FAA), where everyone agrees on everything and as soon as someone has a differing point of view, it becomes "attack" and not "debate".

The thing is, a lot of times those that can't deal with true debate, will turn to personal attacks, because they are at a loss of what else to do.

This does not mean that the OP is right (including me), but an opinion does not have to be right, it just has to be supported, without resorting to attacking the "person". Sometimes, it does not even have to be supported by facts [edit] (the opinion can be based on feelings, or yes, even faith [edit]), although there are many times when an opinion is formed around facts and it is important to include these in the supporting arguments.

***this reminds me of a recent thread, which shall not be named*** [edit] although i would have to admit, that i was getting flustered by the personal attacks and pushed back harder than i normally would have on a site like this. [edit]
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That was not directed at the topic of this thread, or anyone on this thread. It is just a response to the whole "crocodile" thing.

[quote] Not true, a scratch is not always a flaw but rather simply a sign that a truck has been used for what it is designed for and in the case of a work truck, scratches simply do not matter as much as that beautifully tuned 351 thundering through the duel exhaust and the Super Swampers below. Scratches smatches. [quote] - JC

@ JC,

great point!

I don't think this is what Mike had in mind, but you make a very valid and great "supporting argument"..

You see.... this can be fun!! And I do not have to attack you. :)

"i want to make the sale. i don't care if the car is missing the engine and the two wheels on the opposite side of the car, once i make the sale, you own the car."

Holy cow, Mike, remind me not to buy no car from you! Again, a horrible example for purposes of this discussion.

Note to Tiny: With all the lines, edits, quotes, parentheses, and sub-notes in your posts I have no idea who's saying what.

Dan Turner
Dan Turner Fine Art
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online
To Enjoy Dan Turner's Pinterest Boards, Click Here

anyways... i have enjoyed the discussion. time for bed.

thank you Bradford, for setting me straight.

Excellent forum JC to the point, any comment I have ever made brought nothing but the best interest to that particular photo. When I do critique I look carefully at another FAA members gallery and with respect to that artist regardless who you are if your work moves me, has that much impact on me I will comment sincerely. If you do not care to receive a comment from me you can simply delete it or perhaps the feature be done away with.

If you are not sincere do not even post a critique.

I can assure everyone my fellow friends, peers, mentors here on FAA any comment I have ever made where typed not a standard copy and paste critique as everyone is well aware of certain members come across as doing just that copy and paste.

I have a question for the entire forum, when a buyer does purchase your work, they have no need to critique but what about all the hundreds of people who visit your gallery or photo outside of Fine Art America are they not allowed to vote or critique our work like it or not. Does that take place.

The business here at FAA is just that a business working together in harmony with Artist, Customers, Gallery Owners, Collectors and Visitors and fellow members!

dan it's not a horrible example, i can't help it if you or tiny don't understand metaphors and i needed to explain things in a literal sense. it's a fine example. simply put, if you mention the flaw you may lose the sale. if your a car salesman, they put a lot of pressure on you to make that sale, because that's how you get paid. you don't need a heckler.


---Mike Savad

Wow! A lot of discussion on this subject. In summary of what I have read, I agree this is a selling site only. And who is to say the person critiquing knows what they are talking about. I only comment on those images I like. I usually do not read what others write for it might change what I see and like about the piece.
I have been to many photography critiques and found myself disappointed when an image I found very appealing, not one of mine, did not appeal to the certified judges. One of my best selling images received a bad critique from certified judges. On the other hand, I have taken the not so great selling images and turned them into a great sellers following the advice from certified judges.

I love showing my work and conversing with others about it while not revealing that I am the photographer/artist. Not revealing who I am, I can look at my work through the eyes of the viewer. I am always enlightened by what they see and feel about the piece.

This thread has become circular and confusing. *rubs eyes*

Mike, your use of the word "heckler" is a great analogy. When I see a piece of artwork and in the comments there is some random critique - that's what it looks like to me. Heckling. It seems childish. Even if it has merit, the comments section is not the place for it on a site that is about selling finished work.

To a potential customer who is reading these comments, it may give them pause - make them say "oh hey, I didn't notice that, now it bothers me", or they may just say "so what, I love this picture anyway." Me? I'd rather not have them do that at all - or more precisely - I'd rather have them arrive at those conclusions on their own, because of their own observations of my work, rather than because some random yahoo planted the idea in their head.

Surely everyone here has had that experience where you're looking at something and you're enjoying it and then someone says to you "man that looks like a duck foot to me." And then all you can see is the duck foot. Forever. We are suggestible creatures by nature - it's part of what kept us alive in the caveman days.

So, unsolicited critique on a site about sharing works in progress? A site about developing skill and technique? Or even here, on a post where someone asks for opinions? Yea, sure, critique away. But in my store? You'll just wind up making me peeved at you and making yourself look petty.

Unsolicited critiques in comments are inappropriate, since faults are not something I would like to discuss on the page where I am selling an image. But I read ALL comments avidly, and have no scruples whatsoever about deleting any comment that does not seem appropriate for any reason at all. However, some people may get too many comments for this to be practical, or may not realize that comments can be deleted. I usually email a private critique if it is unsolicited. Because it's faster and more convenient, if I am suggesting keywords or have spotted spelling errors, I sometimes put those in comments since they're rather trivial anyway.

With regard to the "scratch and dent" controversy, I will say that a beat up vehicle is in itself an artistic and emotional statement. People love vehicles that help them do their work, and last well. Such old klunkers, beaters, and such can be a badge of honor. I complimented the owner of this VW bus for the "perfect patina" on his vehicle, and he understood what I meant perfectly, and took it as the compliment I intended:


Or in this case, the burrito drippings on the front of my shirt harmonize perfectly with the overall concept of the image:


Some "defects" in images are there for an artistic/conceptual purpose. If they rankle, that may be appropriate for the intent of the image:

I took the photo above after working very late one night, and I saw myself in the mirror as I brushed my teeth. I thought, boy, I look terrible! And I shot this self portrait as a caricature of myself. I think it's funny and terrifying and horrible. That's the intent.

JC...I couldn't agree more. Critiquing an image on the actual art page, which is the artist's store, is bad for business. To me, it's the same as pointing out someone's flaws in public or in the company of other people. IMO, critiques should be given privately as not to plant the seeds of doubt in a potential buyer's mind. You don't enter a pastry shoppe and see sampling taste result signs in front of pastries.

I had a co-worker look at some of my Colorado vacation photos once, and she looked at a photo I had of a solid, beautiful, red rock wall (old film shot - I don't have it posted here although I might try scanning it), and said "there's a face in here!" Sure enough, there was what looked like a perfectly carved face in the top middle of the photo. It was matrixing, there was no carved face, but that's all I see now when I look at that photo. It kind of ruined the overall effect for me.

I wouldn't want that to happen with something I have for sale here. I once saw a distracting element in a photo by a fellow photographer here and sent a PM. She promptly thanked me and cropped out that part of the otherwise lovely work.I have also emailed people when they have glaring typos in their descriptions or titles (which I would appreciate as well). I have no objection to someone sending me an email to tell me "there's some white showing on this one where you cropped...." but I would want them to have the good sense not to post it directly under the photo.

JC, when all of his friends went to Easter Island they left him behind! It was tough on him - but he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

You know what, JC? (and I know this is slightly off topic), maybe I'll actually post that photo and title it "find the face" - it's much smaller than the face in your photo - cool shot, BTW.

I agree. Hidden faces in images are something I don't want pointed out to people. What has been seen cannot be unseen, and sometimes this can be a problem. However, in your example, JC, I knew it was a face before I scrolled the title into view. People are very gifted in finding faces everywhere. I try to avoid doing it too much, because sometimes it can ruin the perception of an otherwise excellent image with a trite, unintentional subject..

I love the suggestion about friends from Easter Island!

When I think of a face in rock, I always think of New Hampshire's emblem, the Old Man in the Mountain's profile. Unfortunately, it collapsed in 2003 and no longer a photo op.

Stone faces are cool.

unless pointed out, i would just see a rock face and then just ask why? often it's hard to know why something was done, and when it's really obvious to the photographer, it may leave other people just scratching their head. kind of like the game --- where's jesus? is he in the tree? in the rock? in that window stain? i can never see it until someone outlines it.


---Mike Savad

Ya know, I actually shot this just to add to my texture collection in case I ever want to try textures but saw the face in edit and just HAD to put it up. (Easter Island is a tag) I used a touch of gausian blur around the face to bring it out more.

Well, it's a cool photo, but when you do the full resolution preview on the "eye" all you see in there is black and it's mega creepy! LOL. But I love the image - any rock face (and I have a few posted) is a great image, in my opinion.

EDIT - by "rock face" - I mean in the generic sense, not in the sense that you can see a face in the rock....

[quote] kind of like the game --- where's jesus? is he in the tree? in the rock? in that window stain? i can never see it until someone outlines it. [quote] - Mike Savad

Yes but once it is pointed out, you DO see it. ;) That is good to know.

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Whoever said that minds can't be changed on a forum like this, was wrong. After the great analogy from Bradford and some other arguments in the thread, I see where for some people, they would not want even "constructive" criticism on their FAA Artist Site.

I guess I come at this from different direction than a lot of you here, because it is not my income and I am still looking to learn. Point well taken though, regarding FAA being the "final stop" and not the "learning grounds". At least not in the comments area, as I have learned a lot by reading posts in the general forum.

It just goes to show that coming from different directions, can create very different points of view and/or opinions. It does not mean that either side is necessarily "wrong", just not the same. It is good to be able to discuss/argue/debate, all sides of a topic.

Thanks again.

not always. usually it still looks like a smudge or some dirt on the glass. sometimes they can even draw an outline and i still don't see it. finding waldo is easier.


---Mike Savad

Before I said "Say what you want on mine. I will leave it. don't really care if it is positive or negative"
For the most part that is true BUT if I highly respected the artist who was using constructive criticism, I would pay attention.