Elitist; Bye By Definition.

a group of stuck up people he. he.

I love words !

Elitist = Snob

First reaction

Someone who thinks he/she is superior.

Elitism has negative connotations, but there are positive modes to it as well. The wise and the gifted, are perhaps by definition, a small minority. It's good when leaders are wise, and when teachers are gifted. We generally don't give our children the right to make all their own personal decisions, so there is an "adult" elite, as well.

I think the issue is when an elite group demands their perquisites as rights, and look at others as their slaves or as subhuman. All men are created in the image of God, and have the same intrinsic rights. So elitism is the sin of an elite class that have forgotten the golden rule. Everyone deserves a measure of love and respect, at the very least until they throw it away. (Even a member of an elite group of people, for example.)

A false sense of superiority

Arrogance...

Elitist = first, someone who believes that all people and all principles are NOT equal,
second, that certain people and certain principles ARE, in fact, superior to others,
third, that he or she or his or her principles ARE indeed in the superior category.

My first impression? - I am not an elitist, and I am absolutely certain that I am right. (^_^)

I don't mind being a elitist at all It simply means some are better at whatever the task is. Better trained or schooled. What they do is worth more..............

Elitist = Delusional

I will try and keep up with this but let me throw this out as well, What comes to mind if someone was to say to you, " She went to a very elite school, or he is part of a very elite military guard"?
Also gregory wrote" All men are created in the image of God, and have the same intrinsic rights" true but does that mean we are al equal in society? I don't mean aristocracy but rather do you believe the world is or should be an equal playing field?

People who are in elite military units are rarely elitists. People that go to elite schools MAY be.

Elitist comes from Elite.
Elite is characterized by select people.

In politiques the Elite, or select people, are who has persuasion power because they have more money, tecnology or essential resources to trade.
In Arts, is characterized by artists who are picked by dealers, or artists who have archived such skill, creativity, knowlodge or/and vision that makes people place him above other artists.
In the academic world are those who have better understand about some questions and so on.
Etc, Etc,

And the Elitists are those, from the elite or not, who support this kind or classification which divides ordinary people and people to be venerated.

The meaning of everything will depends on the contexts where if is placed.


To me, depending on the context, it will mean that something is made targeting riches, or will mean that the person or object is pretentious (pretending to be something which is not: better than the it actually is.).

As my son once stated, "You don't define a person's worth by their class rank."

If you are ever in a bar or online and someone is bragging about being a Navy SEAL, they aren't.

Jc, you associated the military elite with mostly (mostly because of course you know there are always exceptions) non elitist, yet the academic elite you say maybe... Do you see what I mean about distortions based on personal experience?... Have you not seen a military man walk through a crowd like a rooster?

"What comes to mind if someone was to say to you, " She went to a very elite school, or he is part of a very elite military guard"?"

Answer:

She went to a school that prizes excellence and caters to high intelligence and high mental performance standards. He is part of a military outfit that prizes genetic athletic talent and top physical performance standards, training the biggest, baddest, most dangerous, skilled martial artist "muhthus"possible.

My former boss was a Navy SEAL. I'm not joking either. He did carry himself well.

Edited.

This is happening fast..Janice you said he "carried himself well" ... I like that, how did others react to his presence?

I have a 1953 dictionary that says this; "n. The choice or best part, as of a body or class of persons; the active army of Switzerland."
The New Century Dictionary copyright 1927 to 1953 by the Century Co

has no reference to elitist or elitism

Looks like the meaning has changed over time...

Every time there is a mirror when I walk through a crowded room.

Yes, to be specific, MANY F-15 pilots are elitists, they are taught to be elitists in training. It kind of goes with their mission. When talking special forces bad-a$$es I have almost NEVER seen a single one of them act elitist. Academia is a different world. I have seen many elitists come from elite schools while I have seen many from elite schools that are not.

It would also be wrong to confuse self confidence with arrogance and elitism. Virtually ALL elite military men and women exude self confidence but arrogance is less common.

Yes Penny, that is the primary point I'm looking at...

@ Robert, even when talking about the hard core military schools it has virtually nothing to do with athletic prowess, though that is a by product in the end result. It is ALL mental and a refusal to quit that gets those guys through.

Jc, are you sure they are not kidding themselves because they are told arrogance is a bad thing? I've known plenty an arrogant military man ..

He was a commanding figure. He went into regional politics. Very long-winded and wanted the floor and was always on the radio. Behind that exterior though, we could tell there was a time-bomb ready to explode. He got long better with women than the males. Most likely,the males sparred because all these politicians had huge egos. I was a department head and never had a problem with him. As recently as last summer, I wrote to him about our insurance benefits, and he listened and was kind enough to respond to several emails.

Of course we are not all equal in society. Some people will create more, some less. And what they create varies as well. It is not elitism, for example, to think that some work deserves more pay than others. Some work is easier, some is harder, some can only be performed by a very few, and other work can be performed by virtually anyone. But that does not bestow a "class" on the person, an entitlement to a lifelong role as a ruler, or a fate to ask "would you like fries with that" after each business transaction.

Ahhhh, generally those that are truly self confident, do not need the arrogance as a crutch to feel important because they have proven themselves and their actions and accomplishments speak for themselves. While I have known many arrogant military people, they are almost never members of elite military units.

I have always thought there is a group of arrogant, narcisstic type who think they are elite, and try to act like it. Then a group who truly are elite and not arrogant at all. Maybe a third if you think of people trained to portray this as part of their profession, pilot, surgeon, etc.

JC, the mental is enabled by the physical.

Without the underlying genetic athletic talent, the mind could not carry these guys through it. When you DO have such talent, you do not think about NOT having it - you just DO what such athletic talent enables you to do reflexively, which is to not give up ever.

Even less physically gifted people who have strong minds still have something PHYSICAL that other people do not. "Nothing to do with athletic prowess"? I do not buy that. Elite soldiers do not have to think about their gifts because they already have them as a foundation, somehow as unrealized potential in their physical makeups.

In elementary school, I was a nerd, but I always had an athletic potential that I did not realize until later years. When the spark finally flared, I did not give up, because then I felt it and drove myself BECAUSE of it, not because the drive had nothing to do with it, to begin with.

I think JC is right about much elitism, many are not elitist about their actual gifts, talents, and training, but are arrogant in some other (perhaps where they don't feel as gifted, well trained, or talented) area...

This a lot of information for me to keep up with but I had another thought for you JC.. I think you're an elitist at heart, you come from the military and other military people are open to you and you feel a connection .. I on the other hand feel a rejection from military elitist while the academic elite accepts me, if I behave myself... Can you see how we both have two different triggers and distortions?

@ Robert K... Maybe, but not what any of the Spec Ops guys I now personally think nor is it what you see espoused on the TV shows about the schools in question. Yes, there must be some physicality to get through the school, but doing 1000 pushups in the time it takes to play AC/DC's Back in Black CD does not come from a genetic gift but rather a LOT of work. If you talk to guys that have been through BUDs or PJ school they will tell you that the super jocks are more often than not the first to wash out.

I do see how past experience taints the views on elitism Robert and yes, I do understand my own imitations when it comes to ego. I can be and am EXTREMELY arrogant when confronted by arrogance but rarely on a day to day basis.

How does this fit in with your "art for everyman" idea? Robert

I never saw you as arrogant JC, but rather reactive,,,I am reactive also

The best warriors most definitely, in my opinion, are the least elitist in attitude.

I have known Navy seals and a Marine Corps martial arts champion who used me as a punching bag in demonstrations. The Seal was of the most unassuming demeanor, while the fight champion was a bit more assertive, although still very humble in attitude.

On the other hand, my experience shows me that the most learned (formally) tend to be the most elitist in outward attitude. For example, symphony conductors and actors trained at big-name performance art schools are notorious divas.

A reactive arrogance could be one way to put it....

I'm down with that JC, lol.. I never saw you as anymore arrogant than me...

Robert K wrote
"I have known Navy seals and a Marine Corps martial arts champion who used me as a punching bag in demonstrations. The Seal was of the most unassuming demeanor, while the fight champion was a bit more assertive, although still very humble in attitude.

On the other hand, my experience shows me that the most learned (formally) tend to be the most elitist in outward attitude. For example, symphony conductors and actors trained at big-name performance art schools are notorious divas."


This maybe a valid observation but it doesn't take into account motivation and innate qualities and what type of personality would be drawn to which career... Image seems to be what you've observed in both yet each image is specific to the rules of each ones worlds.. what is okay in one is not in the other but both are external images ...

and honestly which is more arrogant? the guy who derives confidence from knowing he can kill me with his bare hands in one second or the melodramatic diva?

When I hear someone using the term "Elitist" I cringe. It is usually used to castigate people in a negative light. And more often than not it is because person "A" feels intimidated or inferior to person "B". It is the same as people using the term "Filthy Rich". Why not "filthy poor"? More often than not this negative aspersion is directed at people that you have no personal contact with and assume upon them an unnatural bias.

Much easier to acquiesce to your jealousy than to aspire to, and elevate, another.

A person who holds themselves to higher standards. Or particular standards, not necessarily "better" but separate from the average expectations..

Janine, That is also what I think of when I hear the word
Tony , You bring up a very good point and what I see is happening right now and escalated in our media.. a reverse discrimination

Yes Robert, History is replete with those who have created a common enemy in order to control the masses. Further, a group or mob is formed around this "Epiphany" in order to direct and enforce is proclivity.

Throwing my 2 cents worth in here, just for clarification (and JC typed it correctly), it's SEAL, not Seal or seal. ;)

Not to pick on the military iconic view but this thread is about trigger words and distortions in communication style.. Those from the military point of view think of elitist from the perspective of "what does the elitist think of me?", as in looking down, yet when the military elite was brought up they sing a different tune. Now lets look at this:

number 1, a persons basic character is innate and outside experience can reinforce belief systems but not our basic personality, we are born like this,..

number 2, what is it that drives someone to excel in an elite military unit? correct me if I'm wrong, aggression and competition ... these are part of the personality,
now what makes anyone think someone with these aggression competition character traits will all of sudden become humble because they are accomplished?

This is where I see distortions at play... Ideology is false, it will always deceive you.. I think the military is one of the most elitist groups out there.. The reaction towards perceived arrogance can very well be the old adage , "we can't stand in other people what we can't stand in ourselves"

clique, club

Thinking they are above someone or above the other person in station in life

Feeling superior to someone

That is what I think of when someone says that word

Do you have a different image if someone was to say that," Mr Jones is part of an elite social network"? Let's give Mr Jones the benefit of the doubt in that he doesn't think of us or people outside of his network hardly at all, not down but separate from him, and that he actually is altruistic... Do others not in his circle not think he is separate from them?

in that case...private but still above us

That is, after all, what elite means

Who is "us" Beth. What group do you feel you belong to?

Like many other words in the American English language - "we" often assign or change the meaning or original intent of the word. Gay used to mean happy, carefree, etc - now - it has become an epithet applied to homosexuality. An "elitist" requires context, and while it comes from the word elite - which means special - we've turned it into 'snobs or those we believe think they are better than others'. An elite school or an elite military unit has nothing to do with the term as used in politics - as one being an elitist.

Context for the word does alter the meaning. An elitist could be one that demands the best, quality, craftsmanship, etc., or, it is one of those "better than thou" people - the ones that KNOW what is good for you - do as I say, not as I do.

It's interesting for me to hear Beth's perspective because she is from a Monarchy, where "elitist" has a long time deeper cultural meaning, association and wound attached to it..

I would say that "elite" is to be at the top of the field.

I would say that a Marine Scout (Sniper), would be considered "elite"'

You could really classify the same, in any field. Academics, Athletics, Arts.


To me, "elitist" carries a very different meaning. When I hear this, I think more social class, than anything else. Money, Power, Fame.... usually comes with an abundance of arrogance and often a complete disassociation with the rest of society.

An elite school or an elite military unit has nothing to do with the term as used in politics...
Roy, what do you mean as used in politics? what you describe sounds more like a perfectionist to me and not an elitist.
Tiny , disassociation with the rest of society? is a bad thing why?

I don't think "elite" has anything to do with politics. For the most part, "politics" is the biggest sham on the face of the earth!!

I think, and saw such evidence in the American political system that we seem to be in the "thrall of Monarchy". I keep saying we have not been ruled by a King in nearly 300 years......why do we attribute everything to the President of the United States? I suppose because he/she is somehow the "elite one".
The burden of being among the elite is having all the answers, carrying all the blame, the fates of us all rise and fall on the[actions of] the elite.
But in answer to your question: elite has connotations of those "above the general masses" and yes they can be snobs, as well.

I'm going to have to steer this away from politics other than to say.. I think the leader of the most powerful nation in the world has earned the title of elite and using the word in the negative is ignorant ... We also seem to be coming back to the belief that elitist as a negative has to do with others perception of what someone else thinks of them, an assumption really..

ELITIST?

For me…
Those being called Elitist conjure up less negative connotations than the ones calling others Elitist.

Take away the monetary associations of the word…and calling one an “elitist” can very well be considered “elite” in and of itself! Lol
(when you think about the other definitions for the word;)

In any event;
I’d take being considered "elite" a compliment…in light of what many find as acceptable human behavior, willpower and desirable achievements…these days. ;)

The burden of being among the elite is having all the answers, carrying all the blame, the fates of us all rise and fall on the[actions of] the elite.

No politics intended, Robert, merely an example of the burdens the "elite" must carry around.....and they do.
They are leaders and yet they can also be insufferable.....just saying. I am really ambivalent either way.

Elizabeth, well I don't think riff raff should be running the world... lol... IDK about that Philip... care to expand on that idea?

You mean insecure? of underdogs

-on first meeting James Abbott McNeill Whistler...
I... determined not to beard the lion in his den, but at least to salute him. I rapped and waited... the door opened guardedly, and a dapper little man appeared and eyed me guardedly. (William Merritt Chase)

Anyone that truly believes, the President of the United States runs anything, needs to take a moment to really think it through!!

7. Posts and threads of a political or religious nature are not permitted on the forum.

You can catch up with all the forum rules here, http://fineartamerica.com/showmessages.php?messageid=260080

Lawrence, As one (of several) accused of being as elitist on faa, I really don't mind. To pursue excellence and associate with those that do is a good thing.

"Lawrence, As one (of several) accused of being as elitist on faa, I really don't mind. To pursue excellence and associate with those that do is a good thing."

@ Mark,

Are you sure you are being called an "Elitist", due to the quality of your art, or your pursuit of excellence??

I admit that I skipped through a lot of the posts above, but there is a general sense that most think that Elite is mostly a negative term...

This was quoted in an old "Smokey and the Bandit" movie, But it's true.... Paraphrased... How smart a person is, Depends on just where in the world your standing.

Meaning... There are some very elite people capable of some very incredible things that I don't have a problem calling them Elite for... Auto racing drivers of a very high Caliber, There are some "Elite" landscapers, Accomplished Musicians. Even a Hillbilly probably has some "Elite" skills that most could not accomplish. LOL..."Even a Caveman could do it"...No offence intended to any local Hillbillies....

But There are also others who like to be called Elite just because they are offspring of Royalty or Wealthy folks. That's the negative side of it.

I guess I should have gone on to say that most of the time someone who is "Elite" at one thing...Sucks at many other things

@ Dan,

So TRUE!! I knew I guy, who most in his field, would have considered "elite" when it came to mathematics. (Mathematician)

However when his tire blew on the hwy, he and his family of 6 had to wait for a tow truck, because he had absolutely no clue what to do.

LOL... I had to change a tire just yesterday...

Really though...It's always better to play it down than to think highly of oneself....This way when you show up humble at an event, You look better when your invited to a better seat, than when asked to move down...

I know the reference Dan. That source has all kinds of wisdom.


I think if people are content with what they have and not jealous or envious then the "Elite" suddenly disappear.

To paraphrase a well known observation from the Bard.

"Be not afraid of elitism. Some men are born elite, some achieve elitism and some have elitism trust upon them"

Most of us are not in the first category but the other roads are open to us all.

Some one over compensating for something

I'm on the road again this morning and will be back later but I'm still seeing a pattern of assumptions that the person who feels they are not elite feels the elite look down on them or are overcompensating, funny how sensitive people get when they are told they are not equal though... I rebuilt my first engine, changed the clutch and did body work on my first car while in high school so it was ready the day I turned 16..A few years back I borrowed my brothers truck and it had a leak in the tire, Penny asked me why I didn't change it and all I could say was" what do I look like to you?, I don't change tires" and filled it with air and drove it to a garage... But I do work in the woods, and farm like a pro. Won't do my own mechanic work anymore, others do it better.. There are many many things that others are far better at than I and I give them the respect they deserve.. I love to talk to the mechanic when work is being done, they have a unique intelligence that I admire..

Your Right R.J.... The "Elite" don't always look down on others, as a matter of fact most appreciate the people who are their fans.... A Case in Point:

Stock Car drivers, My favorite, Jeff Gordon has 4 championships and more wins that any other active driver, 3rd on the all time win list. He and several others are viewed as "Elite" mainly because they have achieved these accomplishments in very few years, standing out from the crowd. He ALWAYS acknowledges his Fans and shows his appreciation, and has given back to the community both in Cancer research and Such...As a matter of fact, he won two humanitarian Awards just this year.

Joe Bonamassa... An Awesome Blues Rock Guitar musician... Very "Elite" in his accomplishments and awards at an early age because he set out to do it and did... But he ALWAYS appreciates his fans also, and has even offered a music scholarship and funds a program called "Riffnotes" a music education program to take the place of the ones our government has stopped funding.

Some give back and appreciate how they got there...those are the ones I appreciate... Kyle petty and his wife created "Victory Junction Gang Camp" in Honor of their Late Son Adam Petty who wanted to do it before he died... LOTS of awesome people out there.

My Motto is... Always look for the Good in people first... You won't always find it, and if you don't, you don't have to hang out with them... Big deal... But if you ignore people because they are Big on accomplishments, You'll be spending your life Jealous.

And that big green ugly monster is worthless!!!

Yes Dan I'm not sure everyone gets that we are all human and are flawed and beautiful, Some take the high road and some take the low road..

Nicely said Dan...

Thank You Penny... R.J...

I Like the way you said that... "Flawed and Beautiful!!" Love it!!

I'm going to go out and sculpt...LOL

Have a Great Day!

Philip asked
Robert

Do you think that one form of elitism or of being part of an elite is better than another form of elitism or that all forms of elitism are equal?

I can only answer this based on how I feel or value things, I would say I respect certain accomplished people more than others, academics, artists, writers,good actors, public service and hold other forms of accomplishment less, sports, financial, pop performers or pop anything...This is just my personal hierarchy and is mostly irrelevant.. I have grown up around an academic and social elite and appreciate the culture that goes with it. i don't really look down on anyone but would rather be someone that helps others look up

If one form is better than the other, then it cancels out the value of being elite and if they are all equal, then what is their value?

I'm afraid it's not that black and white..but I'd really like to hear more about the underdog theory?

When an elitist is alone is he still elite?

Even more so

I think "elitist", to me anyway, is a derogatory term in every sense.
I could be wrong, but does it have anything to do with excellence?
When I think of elite's, I think of closed clubs like unions. Clubs with a small membership,(relative to their expectations)
but the masses bankroll them.
I advocate being on top, because I have earned it. Elite because one rises above through excellence.. It is really a very singular exertion. IT is about excellence. And excellence is something I can stand behind.

I don't think an elitist is necessarily elite, and many of the elite are not elitists at all.

When some one uses the word elitist, I think of a person who believes some people are owed more in life because they hold some certain status, ranking, or superlative of one form or another.

When someone uses the word elite. I think of someone who has risen to the top of there game by acquiring, or demonstrating superlative skills regarding said game.

I don't think you're "distortion filters" theory holds too much validity though, Robert. Certain people use certain words in a way that just tells you what they're saying is a load of BS you just don't want to hear. It's not the words so much as how they're being used, and by whom.

andrew you wrote Certain people use certain words in a way that just tells you what they're saying is a load of BS you just don't want to hear.

at this point the trigger word or words have caused you to shut them out and classify everything they say as BS and not bother to analyze what it is they are really saying..the putting it all into a category as BS is you distorting what they may be saying based on their use of language..My stating that language style is observable may have also inspired you to question the validity of an established concept, not my own, when you don't fully understand the material

Philip
In art, 'Elite' is counter to everything that's creative. It's conformist, dull and stagnant. There's a comfortableness to it. A lack of finding out and creating out of the imperfect

This is your interpretation of elite, but where does being an underdog fit in? I don't agree with your interpretation fully but I see your point. I think of the underdog as the one coming from a place where everything is stacked against him.. I might find this too stressful to create. struggle does inspire sometimes however, but I'm not sure you escape struggle just by being elite

Rose, I chose the word elitist because it is being used in a derogatory manner lately..

When I see the word Elitist, I visualise one person, feeling quite superior,( maybe justifiable, taking into account that they may have worked hard, studied, spent years of experience in their particular area) among the other few of their kind, and then there's the rest of us. Whom, for one reason or another feel that they will never rise to the same, intellectual, financial or skill level, and don't particularly want to IF, the said superiority is handed to them on a plate. But, I would. then look at the word in its context. But you're right, the word would be in the back of my mind while reading on and probably accompanied by a trail of slight contempt.

the word would be in the back of my mind while reading on and probably accompanied by a trail of slight contempt

I couldn't have said it better Maria

my comments often get overlooked....I wasn't expecting such a prompt reply....but now that you have i can go on to say, I am not wholly contemptible of people who are elitist, think they are Elitist, act Elitist. I have a terrible habit of trying to see all sides, and reasons, and therefore find it difficult to make a decision, there is almost, always a BUT. Nevertheless, it is not so much that people see themselves as Elite it is when they look down on others, and for the life of them, with all their knowledge, cannot communicate with anyone below their real or imagined status, that gets my goat.
Interestingly, I find language to be a great divide in many areas. Because people cannot express themselves well with language does not mean that they are less intelligent, speech is only one of the senses, as we all know...and on its own is only hot air :)) What rankles me is when I hear people almost puke because a word ending was pronounced incorrectly, or lisped, yes it can annoying when we are feeling above the ranks :))) momentarily, :))) but I would like to know if there is anyone out there who speaks PERFECT english?

We need elitist, they are the doers .. it stirs up contradiction

This is another view by anonomous

"Elitism has earned an ugly name over the past decade or so. A sure way to accuse someone of having poor judgment or lacking real-world experience is to tar them with the “elite” label. The use of “elite” as a derogatory term has been most pronounced in politics. Political leaders sneer at elites – holding up underachievers as role models – while at the same time aspiring to become the elite of the political class. The “wealthy elite” are also villainized in political campaigns as people who don’t pay their fair share.
I would like to be elite. I like to say – mostly to myself or maybe to my immediate family – that I AM elite. It would be a shocking thing to claim or aspire to in a public conversation, though. Some of my elitism was earned: education, both formal and undertaken on my own, and some was just the lucky accident of my birth – I was born a Caucasian citizen of the wealthiest nation on Earth. Nobody likes to admit the fact that they have some claim to the status of elitism. The term has been damaged over the years.
I want to be elite, and I want others to want to be elite. In private moments I’m not ashamed of being well-read, or well-educated, or having a liberal mindset (in the open-to-all-ideas sense, not the political sense). I want to come out at the top of the heap. I think that the goal of a family, or a community or whatever group you choose to look at should be the creation of elite individuals: Jeffersons, Einsteins, Ataturks. You want people to rise above the average and lead.
I’m not there (yet). I’d like to be. To admit to wanting that would probably seem gross in most company, and I’m most comfortable making that claim on my semi-anonymous blog. We need elite people, and anyone who derides or attacks the elite is, well, an idiot. You can disagree with the particular ideas or approaches chosen by elite members of society, but in business, politics, science, art, religion, whatever area you choose to examine, you NEED an elite. It’s not the elite as determined by birth, or Ivy League education. It’s the elite chosen by intelligence; by drive; by perseverance. I don’t know when that became an ugly attribute in this country, but that attitude needs to disappear – and fast."

Anon

http://www.bripblap.com/rebuilding-the-idea-of-elitism-in-america/

Really? And the working class aren't?

Or maybe you mean they have the means with which to get things done?
I was just liking anonymous elite until they regarded anyone who doesn't want to be elite, an idiot! You have just passed over the line of good communicator.
Most people aspire to greater things, acheivements, but there's a hell of a lot that have too many hurdles to jump. The elitist should be beside them helping them over. And elitist ceases to exist when we are all up there...doesn't it?

The working class is beautiful, and many of them are elitist .. and yes they have the means and ways to get things done..

So, what kind of passmark do you need to be deemed elitist...I mean someone who is true to themselves and has acheived all that they wanted ( although I don't suppose there's a stopping point) I mean how is an elitist measured...exactly?

In reference to your post Penny, if all elites were so honorably "crowned" I might be able to agree, (earned, education etc)
But often the elite, in what ever particular club, whether it be art or politics is more of bought into club.
I am all for excellence, recognition and a little god worship for those deserving. But I have a hard time comfortably equating elitism with celebrating excellence.

"You can disagree with the particular ideas or approaches chosen by elite members of society, but in business, politics, science, art, religion, whatever area you choose to examine, you NEED an elite." from Penny's post.

I would agree that we need to have those who have risen above the rest of us through their excellence. But I don't like to call that elitism. Because I do not believe the elite are necessarily honorably "chosen", Maybe it looks like I am talking semantics. But it doesn't feel that way to me.

Elitist, just seems like the wrong word to me. Not a desirable connotation.

Excellence, yes.

You've really got me thinking about what a true elitist is......where would you say Ghandi and Mandella fall......elitism goes out the window just at the mention of their names....I know I'm going off track.....:( But they were excellent leaders and original thinkers, had perserverence in their beliefs for a better world for everyone, before themselves, but they had to be the doers...
I'm thinking that someone who thinks they are elite and want to be elite, should be able to communicate, with their intelligence, on an equal footing with anyone, without having to work at it, it should be natural, only then will elitist, for me be a word, not to squirm slightly at...but to acknowledge as excellence..

Ghandi and Mandella are both elitist in my mind but not by the definition recently colored by it's negative use, people throwing it around like an insult..it's not..I think someone who is truly elite will shine at a very early age and reveal themselves. A person giving me gentile disregard is not elite to me, they are just insecure and full of false pride..

anon doesn't say "doesn't want to be" he says anyone who derides or attacks...there is a prime example where words get distorted.

@ Rose Elitist, just seems like the wrong word to me. Not a desirable connotation.


That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet." Romeo and Juliet

Whether elite or excellence, if someone doesn't aspire to it they will deride it.


From my earlier post:

I have a 1953 dictionary that says this; "n. The choice or best part, as of a body or class of persons; the active army of Switzerland."
The New Century Dictionary copyright 1927 to 1953 by the Century Co


If you are not striving to be the part of the best, how are you excelling?

Robert, you certainly seem to be revealing some elite qualities...of the positive kind...I suppose to not get words distorted, its just a case of reading properly, with care, and thought/intelligence, we often, me included, jump in without thinking about what is really being said.
No matter which group of people you associate with, or different groups of people, there will always be those who show leadership, those who use it to their advantage firstly, there will be middllemen, of varying accomplishments and then the underdog, who is often the more intelligent of them all, because he has been observing the interactions and coming to his own conclusions, his downfall may be that he is not a doer, as many people could benefit from his action and unwanted praise. So, I suppose there is an elitism that runs through every social level, its just that the further down you go, the louder they are laughed at.....if they are not worthy of their title, put upon them, endowed or earned.
The worthy elitist is just an excellent example of a human being.

Interesting thread Rob.

I would agree that this ain't no swear word as it may appear to some. Elitism can also be regarded as exceptional-ism. In the sense of Gandhi and Mandela, by definition and virtuality. In the sense of common discourse it many be regarded in its full negative glory, but still,

....glory.

The elite are those who have a remarkable level of skill or ability in some particular direction.
Elitists are those who believe that having a particular skill, ability or attribute (even down to skin colour) conveys superiority upon you.

That's how I understand it,

Being a political leader like Gandhi or Mandela automatically makes you one of the elite but it doesn't necessarily make you an elitist. Gandhi took anti-elitism to such an extreme that it almost became inverted snobbery, to the extent that he denied his own children the chance to play a major role in India's future. But then he was extremely narrow minded and bigoted in some regards.

To continue playing with words, I wonder how many who think of themselves as anti-elitist also consider themselves to be tolerant, without realising that being tolerant means forgiving people for being less superior than you, thereby making you an elitist. Of course anti-elitist people could merely be non-judgemental, but then they run the risk of being branded apathetic by elitists who may or may not be willing to tolerate apathy.

Elitism is the opposite of what the bible professes...Humility and meekness. "The meek shall inherit the earth"!

Ahhh! The insufferable ambition and hubris of the meek!

S E A L, ... yes, proper spelling - good observation - it stands for SEa, Air, and Land - I knew that , but I momentarily forgot.

Are elite warriors somehow better than elite intellectuals or visa versa? Answering this would itself indicate a form of elitism ABOUT elitism. (^_^) (i.e., "My form of elitism is better than yours.")

The word, "elitist", is what I call a charged word, like "republican" or "democrat" or "left wing", "right wing", or other words used in painting a verbal picture that causes heightened emotions, such as in political commentary, which, as you can see, the mere mention of causes knee-jerk reprimands here.

The power of words is indeed amazing sometimes. I actually never use the word, "elitist", in my most serious writing or speaking.

"The sheep-like tendency of human society soon makes inroads on a child's unsophistications, and then popular education completes the dastardly work with its systematic formulas, and away goes the individual, hurtling through space into that hateful oblivion of mediocrity. We are pruned into stumps, one resembling another, without character or grace." N. C. Wyeth

paul anti-elitist people could merely be non-judgemental,

once they are against elitists or anti-elitists they have passed into the realms of judgmental, the old pattern of judging the judgmental, especially as described in your own definition

Elitists are those who believe that having a particular skill, ability or attribute (even down to skin colour) conveys superiority upon you.

Which doesn't really fit for me because here an assumption is made as to how someone who is labeled the elitists thinks, I would define the character in this definition as someone suffering from false pride. But elitists can be great people yet extremely flawed and false pride is not something they are immune to but is not something that qualifies them either

Roert , you called it a charged word, I call it a trigger word....Also I did not ask which form elitism is better, what I asked was, which is more "arrogant "the military elitist who derives his confidence from knowing he can kill me with his bare hands in one second or the melodramatic diva?
Robert I've also tried to take creativity, inspiration and passion out of my vocabulary..

Just for the record, I hate the term "False Pride" you either have pride or you don't. You are either humble or you're not. You can have a very high pride in what you do or say but still have humility. People go around with self esteem issues because they are taught at an early age to be homogenous and not to excel lest others around you look bad. The new math is societies' least common denominator theorem.

Judgemental

perhaps pride will be the next word Tony, I think the word pride has just triggered you....along with it's attached friend false
When I say false pride it means taking pride in something that is not real or have any real value... a delusion

Yes, that is but one of many triggers I keep in check. But pride can also be associated with Lions. And that kind of pride connotes respect.

Having pride in something that has no value is what artists are all about RJ. Really, compared to life itself, what value has a painting? And yet we see how paintings sell for millions while people struggle to survive.

yes Tony, My using the phrase false pride is redundant, all pride is false..

Robert I have suddenly admitted to myself that I have been aware of using repetitive words, I don,t know if they are trigger words but am thinking that when I use them, am I locking myself into a way of thinking as I write using these words? I try to write what i am feeling, but maybe my group of words distract me. Using a wider vocabulary wouldn't necessarily mean being free of learned answers or ways of answering. I would be curious to know if you have noticed any trigger words in my replies. It is fascinating! By the way, when I see or use the word pride, I always find myself. Muttering the phrase, pride comes before a fall, and then try not to use it, or question it's use

Maria, I took a look back and didn't notice you use any one word a lot but I do get an impression that you have a strong social instinct .. there are three; self preservation, sexual and social. .. or
me,.. me and you.... and us... some of your communication indicates that you instinctually see your self comfortably in the" us or we "perspective... does that make sense?
if you are trying to sharpen your cognitive functions and awareness paying attention to the words you use a lot is very good.. I might also suggest journaling .it is a wonderful healing tool.. trying to say more with less words is always a good practice and challenge

Wow! Interesting. Ihave always found journalling good for me but have never focused particularly on my vocab to the extent of a limited usage of trigger words. I was curious to why you used the word. Healing.. I like the idea of being in the we perspective rather than the I."but now that I think about it...I think it may be a bit out of balance....

Maria you really are quick because balance is the key to working on your instinctual stacking... it is the instinct that is last that needs healing.. My social instinct is last and it is where I am most blind.. you might want to look at which one you are least in touch with and try to cultivate it.. My self preservation is first so my communication style tends toward less words unless they add a little hint of irony..for me communication is like a commodity that must be budgeted... I tend to use "i" and "me" a lot..

Just for the record Maria, the phrase you are referencing is thus: "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." Most people prefer the paraphrase which is most commonly used and quoted as: "Pride goes before a fall"

Identifying the one I am least in touch with is a challenge in itself.........is there a quick way of assessing yourself....by the way I think you are a good communicator....you seem to be able to recognise exactly what is being asked.....and what is not being asked....
Tony...makes the word pride seem even more wary to be around. I learned to say to students, you should be very proud of yourself, not, I am very proud of you. Ihave very strong instincts about certain things but not, sad to say, and to the detriment of my sanity, puppy toilet training...aaaarrrggghh....seem to be spending a lot of time outdoors expecting,waiting, hoping, only for nothingtohappen, until of course we go indoors!!!!! And then I feel guilty thinking Ihave stressed the cute little thing out.

Puppies can easily be trained. You just need a short leash indoors because they will never poop in a confined area. Unless left there for days. Then when they get antsy bring them out. Usually within a few days they are trained.

I'll certainly keep that mind, anything else is worth a try......

Maria, it can take a while to figure out in some people..a social instinct in one personality can show up as extremely shy while in another an extraverted socialite .. I usually use the process of elimination ... lets say your social is not last than you're left with either SP or SX ... SP issues can also be hard to figure because one type may live a life around security and SP becomes obvious while another SP might be reckless trying to preserve feeling good rather than safe.. What is your impression? our first instinct can show up as our damaged drive or the one that becomes most obvious when we act inappropriately

I always think of money and arrogance when I hear the word elitist.

Granted, some schools and colleges esp come to mind, but I don't consider well-educated to be anything "negative." I would rather people be informed and educated, but the term "elite" does imply somewhat of a negative holier-then-thou type of arrogance. There is also a sort of Scientific-Elite-mindedness, that has more to do with a total lack of common sense and a lack of people-skills that often seems to surround NASA-type or Nuclear-type elitists. For example, those who think it's actually smart to drill for oil in the Arctic because it is less populated while they totally ignore the horrible destruction that can occur in such a pristine and virgin landscape.

Tony, if you pay attention to your puppy (just like a child) it will get fidgety and antsy... and will look around somewhat "confused"...then it's time to go out! (laughing). It really doesn't take long to train a puppy. Usually a week maybe two at most. You just have to be very attentive and observe it a lot.

I've a feeling thatitmaybe sp, but both descriptions, I think I can be reckless when I feel safe.....generally speaking....does this make sense.....feel like I amintherapy...haha...nothing wrongwiththat....though

I used to just rub their nose in it and they learned pretty quick...sorry I'm an old school farm boy..

It appears SP last to me also based on the fact that you are very comfortable in one on one conversations ..

The puppy trainers notes say never to rub a dogs nose in it.......even though that's what I always thought was ok.....

So insightful....I could talk on this topic forever....and all the offshoots....I think the one to one is good for me...I can focus better....also small groups...I think when it's large groups it's difficult for me to get them all on the same page...haha. Is there a name for that?

An example......our principal may be talking to a whole lot of staff....I suddenly find something he is saying interesting. And I agree, but when I look around I see that many people are disagreeing, I need to know why, as they may have a good reason, I worry that I ay be way off the mark, it's the wrong situation to ask everyone why they reacted how they did, I will never know, Ihave too many questions and not enough answers....in a one to one sit...more questions and learning is achieved, I feel, there seems also more depth, more reasons for further discovery, that's my comfort zone..I suppose

sounds like one on one SX that wants to get the group SO to work together.. I may be wrong,I have limited information, the best thing to do is try it on for size for a while and see how it fits before being sure...

Sx is what and so is what?

SX= sexual or one on one....SO= social

I,m assuming that weare not talking group

we have 3 instinctual drives
1 SP self preservation
2 SX sexual or one on one
3 SO social

So the sexual is so named because one on one conversations, let's say, are more intimate, though not necessarily sexual.....in nature....

right .. it's not just about sex ..

Good.....I would have lost interest if the outcome was all downto sex.....but obviously there are connotations of the need for intimate conversations, even about art, say, can have their roots in maybe someone's sexual appetite or lack of ....are we on the same page......that's the important thing...

If one to one discussions are more in my comfort zone, then I need to understand why, and how to go about developing a wider audience, all of whose opinions I don,t need to fully understand, I need to accept that many inthat audience will go unheard, Ihave to accept that that is ok, maybe I need to understand and acknowledge the individuals,because that's what indeed......just opening up the reasoning......I meant to say that's what I need .....I'm practising on an iPad and couldn't get back to my spot

Maria, having a sx /so instinctual drive will have that dilemma of speaking one on one and to the group wanting to satisfy both needs. Don,t take all this new information too literally but chew on it and see what surfaces. I am not a master of the material but I do know it takes time and a lot of inner work to get to the bottom of ourself. You personality as I said earlier manifests these instincts differently from person to person. social instinct can show as having your finger on the pulse of society often on the pop culture and the who's who in the world and also can be self conscious caring what the group thinks. I,m also using new iPad right now.

Robert said ....

"paul anti-elitist people could merely be non-judgemental,

once they are against elitists or anti-elitists they have passed into the realms of judgmental, the old pattern of judging the judgmental, especially as described in your own definition

Elitists are those who believe that having a particular skill, ability or attribute (even down to skin colour) conveys superiority upon you.

Which doesn't really fit for me because here an assumption is made as to how someone who is labeled the elitists thinks, I would define the character in this definition as someone suffering from false pride. But elitists can be great people yet extremely flawed and false pride is not something they are immune to but is not something that qualifies them either"

I didn't mean that elitists are racists, I meant that the range of attributes they consider elite could in some cases include skin colour. There are as many different kinds of elitist as there are different kinds of elite: political, artistic, sporting etc. with all their sub-divisions, clubs and parties. An elitist doesn't necessarily believe he or she is elite but admires those who are. Football fans are elitist and their teams are the elite whom they admire, but they may have no aspirations to kicking a ball themselves.

I am an elitist: I believe it is good to strive for excellence in your chosen speciality and I try to do that myself. And because I want to be excellent at what I do I am dogged by doubts about my ability and my achievements, so I am always willing to learn from those who have more skills than I.

The problem with trying to be elite is that the individual can only achieve what is, for himself or herself, normal. You can't know you are elite until you get the badge - whether it is a football shirt, a military shoulder patch or some other form of recognition. And, even then, there will almost always be a higher level of achievement beckoning. You might have made it to the summit of Mont Blanc, but can you do the same with Everest? And though Everest is highest, isn't K2 even harder?

..... Yeah, I was wrong to say anti-elitists could be non-judgemental. Non-elitists can be non-judgemental, but that might be even harder to distinguish from apathy.

Paul you have managed to put a very positive slant on the meaningofelitist.....close to what I was thinking....I think describing yourself as elitist after giving your interpretation. Is somucheasier to see itina more positive light I think I maybe elitist too then...:)


Thanks Robert I will beobservingmyself a bit more closely as tommy language and social drives.....I enjoyed the banter

Maria this might help understand it better;


"sp/soc: The most straightfoward in language, with relatively little trills and embellishments. Points made directly and from personal experience. Business-like. Clear. Cynical. Lacking in internal experience compared to other stackings."

"sp/sx: Comes out as somewhat heavy and gloomy, or cool and detached. Often gives out a suffocating and insular vibe, as if their internal world is wrapped around by an impermeable membrane. Strong sensory impressions designed to awake sexuality. Makes one want to linger on one or two lines forever."

"soc/sp: Tangential. Lots of details and analysis. Very in-their-head and intellectual, and lacks sensuality. Comes across as level-headed and unspontaneous, but also with personal warmth. Their written works often require a great deal of mental concentration from the readers."

"soc/sx: The word "fantastical" comes to mind. Lots of virtuosity and trills, and often removed from the real world. One is whirled away by the dazzling fairies of their colorful imagination. Can be too rich in imagery for their own good. Sustained dramatic power due to their knowledge of interpersonal dynamics."

"sx/sp: Intense, often a stab-in-the-chest sensation, leaving me in tears without knowing why. Fantastical but much more concentrated in a few inner images. Can be abstract, animating dead objects into their field of contemplation. Embodiment of another human, thing, or idea is common in their writings."

"sx/soc: My impression of their writing is "fire-and-ice", as if one is to experience the extremes of heat and coldness at the same time. Often abstract, spilling one inner vision after another like a dream-sequence. Seems particularly in touch with the core meaning of life and death."

Thank you Robert. I really appreciate you posting that, yes, it's all much clearer, I can identify with all of them, now I have to figure out if they are in balance within my personality, or rather when, who and where do I use one or two in excess, and maybe unnecessarily, preventing better communication, and understanding of what I am reading or hearing. Hope someone else found this interesting too. Thank you for being so communicative and not throwing the towel in :)

My pleasure Maria,

It's interesting to me that in personality typography the type that is most often associated with the romantic artist is also given the elitist title, yet there seems to be an awful lot of disdain for them here on an art site.. an overwhelming majority of famous artists fall into this personality type..

The haughty military type that struts is more about security, the strut or rigid posturing is subconsciously designed to ward off possible threats, like a force field..it is a fear based issue..

the haughty artistic attitude is about image and how they see themselves and want others to see them,.it is shame based

While the fear based is looking for threats to security the shame based is looking for what is missing and this also plays out as an intense longing or searching mostly looking for what is missing inside..It's that search that can be profound

yes i would guess you to be infj , you're an elitist underdog Philip.....I'm infp ... perceiving

Philip, I think I have done this one before but can't remember those results, the results from the one I have just done are INFP
.Introvert(44%) iNtuitive(62%) iNtuitive Feeling(38%) Perceiving(44)%
You have moderate preference of Introversion over Extraversion (44%)
You have distinctive preference of Intuition over Sensing (62%)
You have moderate preference of Feeling over Thinking (38%)
You have moderate preference of Perceiving over Judging (44%)


The percentages may vary greatly from one INFP to another.

Myers Biggs is good at gauging how we interact, learn and experience the world... It falls short for me because it doesn't take into account motivational patterns and mind sets

I really enjoyed the further reading of INFP's...I could identify with it very well, but I don't think this reveals the whole personality, people are just too complex to be nailed down. But I am very much like an INFP, a lot of the time....but not all of the time...either. It is interesting reading though. I loved the description of a passage from anne of Green gables about the skin horse....I would turn my nose up at the very name Anne of Green Gables...that's the elitist in me...tiny though it is..haha. All of the authors who are INFP's on the list have begun to rouse a curiosity in me.
I know that I am indulging in one to one here....see, I recognise it!!! But I would love you both to read a chapter of a book that I have been writing for a long time, what do you think? I would expect two very different reviews!! One from an INFP and an INFJ
Robert it would be a good exercise in looking at my language.

Philip I will message you.

Philip, this sounds like what was later called active imagination writing. I had trained myself many years back to write while a sleep, go into a trance and write down what the voices said. At first it was just a few lines scribbled down and after a while I could write several pages.. I called it personification of alter egos, there were everything from old black slaves to wounded soldiers to children. It was very helpful and helped me sleep, it also for told many a prophetic event in my life and world events..It would get scary at times and I would have to back off. I've also been trained in hypnosis and many years of mediation and hands on healing work while living in Indonesia.. There has been lots of work done since Jung..

Wow!

Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach was said to be written under active imagination...