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Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

The Look Of Fine Art America

Sean has built (i.e., coded) an excellent site here, especially the features that are included for the artist to market their work. But as good as anything is, nothing is perfect. Nothing on the web is ever really complete, as it can always be improved upon.

This is a site with members of very creative people, many of which I'm humbled by. I've been a member for years and the site still looks the same.

Am I the only individual who thinks the site has become visually stale? I have spoken with Sean before about it and he feels it's fine. I know others who have brought it up with Sean, too, and received similar responses.

No, this is not my site. It belongs to Sean. But if it weren't for the artists supporting this site, Sean would still be at his old day job. I read recently that this is a five-million-dollar company with just three employees.

I visit the home page and the top banner has been showing the same three pieces of art for years. Sean excels in writing code, and that's great, but the site coud really use a major facelift. I believe it should have more of a gallery look, since that is what it is.

Just to reiterate, I think Sean is a genius at developing a site, and this site attests to that. But he is not an experienced graphic designer.

I think deviantART.com (a site that has limited selling options) has an excellent UI. They even listen to their members on what needs to make the site better, and they inform their members what changes or additions are on the list. And if you check-out http://deviantART make note they have 25-million active users with 245-million pieces of art (lots more than FAA). deviantART is not a competitor of FFA, but it shows a unity between the developers, designers, and their members.

I could have made this post shorter but I didn't have enough time. ;o)

Reply Order

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Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Aesthetically, the site is very 90s. It was dated the day it came on line. If Sean doesn't want to change it, it's not getting changed.

 

Charles Kozierok

11 Years Ago

Given all of the real functional issues that could use correction or improvement here, it is my sincere hope that Sean spends exactly ZERO time working on changing the wallpaper.

 

Alexandra Till

11 Years Ago


........ more of a gallery look, since that is what it is ...

Well, FAA is the middleman for a print shop, but "more of a gallery look" certainly couldn't hurt.
However, I would be much happier if it would work flawlessly.

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

Honestly, I do not see this as an issue. I don't care that the website looks consistently the same. Consistency in some things is good.

We breathe the same old chemical combinations of gases every single day. Life depends on this sameness.

In a market place, consistency of appearance is what consistently draws people back to what they are familiar with. For example, I hate going to the grocery store, seeing that things are all changed around, forcing me to waste my time rediscovering where they are now located.

Again, this is such a non-issue, from my perspective.



 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

We're artists. This shouldn't be a point of contention. Great companies recognize that great design leads to differentiation, customer loyalty and higher profits (think Apple).

Think how swiftly and strongly a design experience shapes our opinion of that brand, company or store, for good or bad. People know quickly when a website is bad — even if they can't articulate what's wrong. And they associate that feeling of frustration and/or disappointment with that brand.

 

JC Findley

11 Years Ago

I tend to agree with Robert as a matter of fact, my grocery store changed things around between my trips and it was a PAIN in the BUTT!

I would rather see functional things run perfect before effort is spent on aesthetics but in time, sure it would be an improvement.

 

Mark Tisdale

11 Years Ago

While I agree it has a dated feel, I agree with Robert that it's a non-issue. Look at Redbubble, every time the wind blows, there's a new 'wonderful' look and just as predictably everyone that uses it on a regular basis complains that the changes have broken they way they used the site before. I was on deviantArt years ago as well. And while I'm not per se change adverse, their constant changes was one of the things that turned me off. Change for the sake of change rarely seems to be well-thought-through.

In fact, the shopping cart part of the site might be better somewhat dated. There are plenty of people buying art who are not technical whizzes and every additional bit of complexity will send a few more running rather than completing a purchase.

 

Harold Shull

11 Years Ago

Hiya Lar,

I am a graphic designer and a damn good one if I ask myself.:) The problem here isn't how this site looks but how easy it is to locate things, post images, maintain an accounting for yourself and generally organizing your pages so they are easy to find on the great information highway. Not only does Sean have to accomplish this, he has to make it easy to understand in every different language in the world.

As far as I'm concerned, Sean has done one hell of a job accomplishing all of this and making it the most successful site for artists in the world. Soooo what's not to like?

 

Mike Savad

11 Years Ago

you don't want it too modern. many sites make that mistake and ruin their site because of flashy graphics and incompatibility to many people. if it's not broken, don't fix it.

i hate what red bubble did with the site. they created a new veneer but never corrected stuff that really needed it. i find deviant art kind of confusing to use and don't go there all that often. i didn't like the thought of accidentally letting my large image for sale - really be set up for downloading.

there are certain things that could use work, like the search, if we aren't changing the order, then how about plurals? that would give me words. but the interface isn't that bad. like look at zazzle, you can't edit something after it's been made.


---Mike Savad

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Great design doesn't mean more complex. It means less complex, easier to navigate, less clicks, and better-looking.

 

Sydne Archambault

11 Years Ago

Really at the end of the day, for us, is when we do sell our work, we know with confidence it will be tip top for the buyer. FAA has it down on the end result, compared to others. This is my mind set, this is what is important to me.


 

Sonali Gangane

11 Years Ago

I think security is the issue that must be on top priority.

Images on FAA can be saved simply with Save Option.
I think there should no way a image can be copied or saved or saved as.None of the option should work for any visitor.

Look and feel can be changed gradually.

 

Debra Forand

11 Years Ago

I am going to put my 2 cents in here. I was going to post a topic but this seems as good of a place as any.
I think the look of the site is fine. It still attracts buyers and sellers. No one likes cookie cutters and that is where he would go with it. I love this site and want to be sure to say that first! However, I do have an issue with the search function and how the artists can get noticed. To me it seems as if the search function is totally random. You can click on a photo or painting and it will have not one keyword that you put in the search. It will have just a few votes, and minimal if no description. How can this be? You can do all the marketing in the world but if a buyer types in a specific keyword and your art is no where to be found it is not working for you.
Today I typed in the keyword nautical. I have several of my photos with that keyword. I went through 20 pages of pictures. I found one that had the keyword nautical. Of course mine were nowhere to be found.

I then typed in the word beach. Many of my photos have titles and keywords "beach". I went 25 pages deep and again no where to be found and very few with the keywords beach.
So I think if anything needs to be fixed it is not the look of the site, but the functionality not only for the seller but for the buyer.

If I am wrong and the search works the way SEO should then someone by all means please explain.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

I agree that there are (what I consider) major feature issues on FAA, and that's certainly Sean's domain. Such as matting a print. I mat all my prints with about 15-20% of extra mat on the bottom. Can't do that on FAA. But, the company that fulfills FAA's print orders offers sizing options, for all sides, on their site. I spoke with Sean years ago about that, and he told me that no one does that anymore, and that all mat sides are equal. Because of that, I buy my my mats and frames directly.

But he can afford a creative team that doesn't get you lost, but provides a "fresh" look. A creative team doesn't change the functionality, just the look. Just like those three images on the home page that have been there for years. I consulted with the Federal Government and Fortune 500 companies on the user interfaces (UI) of their sites, while the coders were in another room making it all happen. That's the way it works in the real world. I've been building sites (design and development) since 1995. Coding has changed dramatically over the years, with HTML5 just around the corner. But design is what we look at.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Sonali, there isn't an image anywhere, on any website, on the entire world wide web that can't be easily copied. That's absolutely not a priority.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Dan Turner hit the nail on the head.

 

Deborah Boyd

11 Years Ago

It's very dated, and unfortunately that makes it not very enticing. While the art work is wonderful, I wonder how many people will pass the site up without looking because the cover isn't up to par.

Keeping ahead of the game is always an uphill battle, but one that has to be tackled every day.

 

Hal, couldn't agree more with your expert opinion. Yes, it works..........for the Artists, but maybe for the buyers there's room for a dazzlingly simpler purchase,etc,system.....no complaints from me though.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

"Great design doesn't mean more complex. It means less complex, easier to navigate, less clicks, and better-looking." — Dan Turner

That's what Dan hit the nail on the head with.

It's not either or, it's both. The code needs to be reliable and kept up to date, and the look needs to be professional and stunning. Both should happen simultaneously.

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

I think some of you are looking at this too much as designers and not enough as users. I doubt that people are attracted here by the appearance of the website. I think they are attracted here because they might be searching for something, and they want to find this something that attracts their eyes. They are NOT looking for a website page design; they are looking for something else that a website page design functions to allow them to find.

The art on the website is the pretty part. The process of finding it is the functional part.

In brochure and advertising design, I have seen designers get all artsy and conceptual about the appearance, to the point of creating a dysfunctional piece, just because it was all about them and not about the people who actually had to use it consistently - users with zero familiarity with the creative elements of the design, who really could care less about the design, only caring about the content that the design can deliver consistently, clearly, and efficiently.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

"I think some of you are looking at this too much as designers and not enough as users."

Not me. Not Lars.

Point some names. Name some fingers. Just because someone screwed up a website or brochure before doesn't mean anyone is advocating Sean do the same with a new, ill-conceived design.

 

Rose Art

11 Years Ago

This is such a small blip.
These sites are changing every second.
When FAA started and what it is now is so very different, and tomorrow it will look different again.
A small blip in the history, and not deeply defining.
I cannot accept the internet definition of fine art.
stolen art is not coveted. Cheap easily had, is not coveted.
How is this not anything more than easy fodder for Amazon or Walmart.
I don't even get it. I thought China had that market wrapped up.

Faa is Walmart/ Amazon's pimp?

I wish it wasn't so , but look around.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

" … to the point of creating a dysfunctional piece …" Robert Kemodle

Sure, that happens occasionally, but it's the client that approves it. That contributes little about the design characteristics of this site.

 

Mark Tisdale

11 Years Ago

While a well-thought out update wouldn't bother me, it's just not something I'm clamoring for. And all evidence suggests that business is good. As for the feeling buyers are "turned off" by the look and feel of the site, only Sean could tell you if there's truth to that, i.e. looking a the website stats to see how many users enter the site and abandon it after visiting only a page or two. It's hardly conclusive evidence, but no one I've personally directed to my shop here has reported back that they had any issues making their purchases.

On the matting/framing issue, I'm surprised how many people order with mats/frames, etc. It runs counter to my own feelings on the matter. For whatever reason, I'm perfectly willing to order a print online sight unseen, but I can't imagine choosing the framing materials, etc. based on what I see on a screen. I need to see the materials for myself for the mat and frame. The fact many order framed tells me I'm not with the majority here.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Mark: FAA's print supplier is probably one of the best PODs in the country. Stick with a white mat and black frame and you'll have no problems. ;o)

 

Mark Tisdale

11 Years Ago

I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever looking for a vanilla frame. ;-)

 

Michael Robinson

11 Years Ago

It's probably not fair to compare FAA to deviantART. The latter started as an application theme sharing site and grew wildly in size and scope long before they offered the prints service. I still have the lifetime premium prints membership ("until hell freezes over") from when they experimented with different models at the beginning. They're different kinds of sites.

It's also worth nothing that deviantART looks mostly the same as it did in 2001, with minor cosmetic and functional changes as the web progressed. It's probably a better model for a site like FAA than the sort of risky redesign that tanked Digg.

The new new Digg looks and works great, and is among the first sites I visit in the morning. Reddit, the site that ate its user base, still looks like garbage and has a billion views a month.

There's a lot FAA could do to improve the look, but the risks may outweigh the potential benefits given that that worst you can say about FAA is that it looks old. No one's going to leave in droves over consistency.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Michael,

I didn't say FAA should look like dA, I said, "…deviantART is not a competitor of FFA, but it shows a unity between the developers, designers, and their members."

I don't recall any poll on FAA as to asking what is important to the paying customers. As I mentioned, I asked Sean years ago about offering mat size options, and he simply said "no." Yet, the POD that fulfills all of FAA orders offers the option. It would just be nice to contribute suggestions, and if enough people vote for the feature, then it gets put on the TO DO list.

It's a great site in many ways, but it could be better.

 

Roger Swezey

11 Years Ago

RE: "Great design doesn't mean more complex. It means less complex, easier to navigate, less clicks, and better-looking."

Dan,

Agreeing with others here, you've hit it on the head..

Let's start with one element at a time

First...The HOME PAGE

Let's think not as Artists, but as a Casual Visitor.

Where does a Visitor first start?

The Slide Show in the middle?..The Listing on the left side?...The Icons across the top?...The Wording in the black line?

And what to me,what is the most important element,...The tiny "Search"rectangle at the end of the black line at the right.?.

To me, TOO MANY CHOICES!!...TOO CONFUSING!!...No clear cut direction for the Casual Visitor to follow

I have the feeling, that not too many members here have seriously looked at the Home Page.....And suggest you do so.

I have a lot more to say...but later.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@Roger

I don't like to look at the home page anymore, as it only frustrates me. You, too, bring up good points. Well thought-out design means easy navigation. I don't think that many visitors begin on the home page, though. Google lands them on page matching their search query.

But those who do enter on the home page are inundated. That may be the only page they see.

Sean, if you are reading this, please consider some member-suggested changes. Let's work together for the common goal.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

This is beautiful design for an art site. Great impact, excellent navigation and the main image changes on each refresh.

http://500px.com/

Look how that makes you feel.

 

Brian Wallace

11 Years Ago

I'm not quite sure of the point of this discussion except to vent. You've already spoken to Sean. Are you trying to get more ammunition from members?

There are many many many suggestions in the "official" suggestion thread... http://fineartamerica.com/showmessages.php?messageid=254264

I suppose Sean will continue to pick and choose and/or ignore what he sees fit.

 

Angelina Tamez

11 Years Ago

Websites can always be improved upon.

Sean, no doubt, researched the other art sites. Identified strengths and weaknesess....then implemented what he saw would surpass them.

I see it only as a matter of time before someone else does the same thing. Strengths/weaknesses....do it better.

FAA has been instrumental in developong my art career. Sean and his vision for the site is certainly part of my success. However, my ideas of what would make this site better? Frankly....I dont think my opinion matters. I one artist on a site of thousands, I didn't make it.

Sean has implemented changes throughout my membership here. More features, more ways to market, more opportunties, more ways to make prints. More isn't always better. It seems the more the site has added to it...the more complexly irritating all of the gremlins on site are getting.

I woule much rather have a functioning site over a visual facelift.

If you have already brought this to his attention and he disagrees....what is this thread?
It is fine to make a reccomenation....I think it is disrespectful to act like the opinions of a few artists here somehow trump the owner of this site.

His opinion matters most, as it should. If he wants to know what we think, he'll ask.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Brian, The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Angelina :-) I actually find it weird that the site aesthetic isn't discussed on a daily basis!

 

Angelina Tamez

11 Years Ago

Lol....because we're artists?

Discussed? Ya....I am actually surprised it isn't discussed more.

This is not a question of what we think of it...it'a an individual trying to force change...not encourage thought about it.

I find it off putting and rude. Not unlike a teenager throwing a tantrum because something is not the way they want it.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Really? I like it better than the "I can't upload, I can't login, updates don't work, search doesn't work, Paypal doesn't work, tags don't work, Facebook doesn't work, post your newest/favorite work" threads that choke the discussion board every minute of every day.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

" … .I think it is disrespectful to act like the opinions of a few artists here somehow trump the owner of this site." – Angelina

Well, of course, I respectfully disagree. It takes nothing to stand with the crowd, but it takes everything to stand alone.

We are the ones who make Sean wealthy. In general, I don't believe there are many artists here that support themselves from their art sales. The starving artist syndrome. Yes, Sean and I have communicated a bit over the years. This is a forum … what is it for? It's for communication with other members.

You seem to be saying that we should only give compliments here.

And as I've said before, it's not an "either-or" relating to technology and design. The best method is building them together. Sean wants to be the only developer on this site … it's his site and that's his choice. But what if Sean was involved in an accident, or became very ill, what then? Doing the site solo was probably doable when he started. It's grown exponentially. As a veteran of 17 years of web experience, I know he needs help. Even if I didn't have 17 years of experience, I'd still know he needs help. He's a smart guy, but I believe he needs to delegate.

 

Angelina Tamez

11 Years Ago

*angel laughs

I will admit...it is better than that.

It isn't the premise of the discussion that rubs me the wrong way, it's the presentation.

I have given a lot less thought to the look of the site compared to how it functions.
And the odd things, like why is the abc deal still listed?

 

C Ribet

11 Years Ago

In order of importance:

1. The site features that exist must function properly first and foremost

2. The customers here and at Artist Websites must have a clean, quick buy process (it seems fine to me now except for p.s. note below)

3. Artists should be able to use simple HTML etc. to adjust their own AWs more than now

4. Last of all, Sean should spend time on making the main FAA site UI all different

If Sean starts to change things just for the look and layout before 1,2 and 3 we are in for problems.

I chose FAA primarily because of all the other sites like this for print on demand it had the absolute best AW I could fine as well as online framing and matting tools for the customers.

p.s. Along these lines of #1 - can people confirm that after a customer finishes the check out from an AW and then gets the thank you page at http://artistwebsites.com there is a permanent cookie based redirect and the browser used will NEVER go back to the AW until cookies are reset!

 

Angelina Tamez

11 Years Ago

Disagreement noted Lar.

I agree to disagree.

Artists do make this site...that is true.

Like I said...it is the presentation. ;)

Good luck trying to get greased.

 

C Ribet

11 Years Ago

p.p.s.

I have a horror that the tiny number of folks running the technical side of FAA makes it very very dangerous for us folks who depend on FAA in case problems come up...

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

"It isn't the premise of the discussion that rubs me the wrong way, it's the presentation."

See? Presentation is important. That's all this is about.

 

Angelina Tamez

11 Years Ago

Presentation is important.

 

Roger Swezey

11 Years Ago

RE: Squeaking

Throughout my 4 years here on FAA, I've squeaked and squeaked and squeaked some more, and a very few times (besides being banned) caused results.

Kvetching about unlimited number of tags, it was finally limited to 500 characters (to me still too many).

And at one time, A member could click on all the media icons,to have images come up on every inappropriate category imaginable.... And now after a squeak or two,three,four or five, one can click on only 2 icons for any given image.

One very good feature that was on the Home Page originally was the Color Selector, where one can find images of the exact color a visitor might be interested in.....I pointed out that this feature was not incorporated in the general search....So, one couldn't readily find that exact colored "Tulip" and would have to slog through all the existing images with that exact color to find one...So, instead of finding a way to incorporate that feature, Sean decided to eliminate the Color Selector completely........Go Figure........It Was A Great Feature.

So, I guess we have to be careful when and where to squeak .

 

Rose Art

11 Years Ago

If I used this place as a market place I would be very ticked. I would even have to agree with Dan, on every level of dysfunction he mentioned.
Angelina calls it rude? off putting?
I would call paying for the privilege of the dysfunction rather "off putting".

 

Lar, I agree that home page needs an uplift and am glad you care enough to pursue the idea.

I've been a strong advocate of improving the offerings to the visitor to our home page, and like Roger, have been banned for complaining and disloyalty. Nothing changed. Try any box in the Prducts....it's repetitive,unchanged,cache ....rarely anything new on offer, check the upload dates .....but.....I'm glad it's you seeing the 'look' and not me.....this is not a democracy and being outspoken reaps no rewards, so, I wish you good luck.

Edit....I'd like to add that at all times my thoughts were/are purely altruistic, but exquisitely misunderstood (like pain)

Yes, Rose...not rude.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

DAMN, I lost my entire response to all of you. It was a thesis and I was pleasant. I hate when that happens. This is how I closed it …

Pet peeves:

A mat must be cut to the same size on all four sides. Sean's supplier does offer different sizes. I, personally, have always added extra mat on the bottom.

Sean never offers specials ... his supplier does.

The 25MB limit. I think Imagekind's limit is 200MB or more. My images are large and must be compressed, though Sean discourages people from compressing. How?

Separate paying members from non-paying members; e.g., paying members get to upload 50MB files, while free members have a limit of 5 or 10MB. If it's just for the web page, it could even be just a 2MB limit.

I had more but I forget them now. They'll come back to me. ;o)

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@C Ribet
I agree with your points except #4. Sean should let an experienced graphic designer or a design agency create the UI. Sean wants to do it all, but forgive me Sean, you are much more valuable working on the code.

@Angelina and Dan
Presentation on the web is very important. Presentation of an art site on the web is critically important. 500px has the right idea. Simple, clean and uncluttered.

@Rose
I second that.

@Vivian
Thank you. I have a bad habit of sticking my neck out. It's easy to stand with the crowd; It's difficult to stand alone.

 

Roger Swezey

11 Years Ago

I went through the "Yellow Tulips Photos" Google search process to arrive at this.

Something new was added: The "Collection " Tab

What does that have to do with "Yellow Tulips"?

Check this out, and comment please



And notice the third "Yellow Tulip" image

 

Roger, the tags on the red tulips there include 'yellow' and dozens more erroneous tags....so what's new,lol?

 

Martin Davey

11 Years Ago

When I first came across the site in early 2009 I thought, based on its uninspiring look, that it was a 'fake' site, just out to steal peoples money. It was not until a few months later I found out that it was genuine! It always has looked poor design wise compared to its more glamorous competitors, but I feel that the underneath engineering of the site and its reliability are the main issues, often discussed here, are really the things to be looked at for the moment.

 

Roger Swezey

11 Years Ago

Viv,

I'm more concerned about the "Collection" tab,...that throws the casual visitor completely off of the "Yellow Tulips". The reason this visitor came to this page

 

Yes, I noticed the "Collection" choices too...a new 'convenience' for getting the visitor to other items......it's as if we're eating our young ! It's probably good business....after all...the pages are all owned by FAA, who can/would naturally enhance its pages with advertising about it's other products, of course.......it's FAA ... not VAA, lol (Annette,fyi)

But, maybe getting glitches etc to stop happening is much more important, as to visitor experience here.......for now, anyway, Roger......the search,etc. will continue to nag, no worries on that !

 

Rose Art

11 Years Ago

@Angelina, 1:33
"His opinion matters most, as it should. If he wants to know what we think, he'll ask."

That is such an atrocious statement. I have no words.
Not exactly business 101.

Viv and Roger, this place is so far removed from the place it was a few years ago, where do you think it will go from here.? And what will it mean to you?

 

Angel Ortiz

11 Years Ago

I think is fine Lar to be on the computer all day it wouldn't be a life either, adjusments will come at the time.
not everything is perfect some times I hate FAA and sometimes makes my day
maybe I din't say some significant but I put my grain of salt.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@Angel

My apologies, but I do not understand what you are trying to say.

 

Jenny Rainbow

11 Years Ago

I love FAA site for its simplicity and easy found options. I hate to think it would change with design if it will lead to more complicated stuff. As Im saying about myself Im just a technical idiot and prefer simple but effective things. As already here has been told regarding other sites, Im completely agree - they became with their innovations absolutely unfriendly with complicated navigation and Im coming there just to put the works, thats all. Here I feel myself like at home, I have an easily orientation.
Yes, there are something that should be fixed and first I think its everybody's headache is a search, if many people keep telling its not working right usable way - it means that search doesnt work properly and it has to be fixed, as its getting completely unhelpful for everybody - for the buyers as its all the time showing the same for years and for the artists.
And just would say one more time, the site is working great way and its already proved (Im not telling regarding malware cautions - it happens sometimes, yes) but FAA seems to be a leading artistic site for nowadays attracting new artists and buyers. So just keep it like this, Sean!

 

Judy Kay

11 Years Ago

I agree with Jenny...and to compare FAA graphics against Deviant Art??? There is nothing about their site home page that is superior to FAA's...and it is the most unnavigable site I have ever been on...and the artists profile page...let's not even go there. I wont even join the site for these reasons. I love the ease of operation and uncomplicated design that FAA offers. Sean has done an outstanding job creating this site.

PS

Also...the thing that I dont like about some sites is the "graphic design" design...to me it implies a certain element of mathematics and science...a total departure of what express art for so many!

 

Peter Chilelli

11 Years Ago

Like the example link Dan posted, I enjoy sites that use the "form follows function" approach. But, as others have said, I would much rather FAA functioned better on a consistent basis before any time/effort was spent on a facelift.

-Peter

 

Yury Yanin

11 Years Ago

I think at some point of a business success you can not change a major brand design without looses. Imagine changing design of Jony Walker, White Horse, Befiter, etc. It doesn't matter how looks traditional, recognisable brand design nawadays - modern looking, or out of date, may be even the older the better. Good or bad, it is not only a talent of a disigner, which makes the brand design attractive, the deserved fame of that brand is more important for attraction, promotion and business. Having a business so much succesful as that with FAA, one should think very carefuly before changing anything too evidently.
As for other sites, I'd avoid generalizations. Some sites use to change their design regularly, the majority prefer to keep their appearance easily recognisable. Redbubble changed home page resently. I had not visited that site for some time and felt confussed on my return. A new design did not make that site more beautiful, more attractive for me, It is modern looking, but even worse then the previous one to my test. I had to spend my time to get accustomed to its new design and tools. Amazon and links to it has "many faces" - may be I am wrong, but I reached Amazon from web pages with very different design, titled with Amazon logo. Imagekind, Deviantart - they seem to have practically the same design for years and change only images on a home page. By the way, when looking for my Deveant art gallery in Google seach I ocasionaly found a lot of hard pornography on that site. With the first click on that link, I cought a very strong virus on my computer. I had to reinstall Windows, my system is not copmletely recovered even now.
So be careful.

 

Judy Kay

11 Years Ago

PS... Also...the thing that I dont like about some sites is the "graphic design" design...to me it implies a certain element of mathematics and science...a total departure of what express art for so many!

 

Richard Rizzo

11 Years Ago

Though it does come to my mind too on occasion it's more of a non issue for me.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

This is a good thread. It's bringing out people's passions: pro, con, and as Richard stated, a non-issue.

A note to Sean: you know that I consider you a very gifted developer and coder, and you know I've also suggested that you get some help with your growing site. It's just a matter of time (or you may be planning to sell the site).

In any event, I'm not putting you down as I just need to respond to some fellow members. I'm expressing your need for some talented assistance to help take the site to the next level. I'm waiting for the first person to tell me to go start my own site, yada, yada …

Since it has been said that "form follows function," we'll start with function.

Probably the most important part of a UI designer's responsibility is navigation — and making it as intuitive as possible. There's an old rule of thumb in designing a web site that there should be no more than three clicks to get to where you're going.

My mention of deviantART was a simple comparison of basic UI. Now I will give a simple example.

You are browsing FAA and currently not logged in. We'll call the page you're on: page 1. You need to be logged in for what you want to do. So you click the log-in button on the top of the page, which takes you to page 2, the log-in page. You enter your access information, and you are taken to page 3, the site's recent sales. Then you are directed to your profile page, which is page 4. But you logged-in because of something that was on that page 1. You can use your browser's back button to find it, so you go back to page 3, then 2, then 1. But page 1 still thinks you are not logged-in (the page is cached), so you need to refresh your browser so the page gets updated from the server. I count a minimum of 5-7 pages to get back to what you logged-in for.

Now, you are browsing on deviantART and currently not logged in. You are on a page we'll call 1. So you click the log-in button on the top of the page, enter your access information, the menu disappears, you are logged in, and you are still on page 1.

And on a related note: Sean, my friend, what would happen if you were incapacitated for some reason for a period of time. Who would take care of everything?

 

Roger Swezey

11 Years Ago

RE: Search Engines.

1. Google:

Normally when using a subject (tag) with Google..the.FAA site comes up near the top.....That's a very good thing

2. FAA:

Since FAA constantly and consistently insist that their "Favorites" come up every chance possible,. this includes mis-steps, where instead of going back to the last step, "Featured Art*" appears,...I'm positive, like me, most casual visitors to this site, find this not only confusing but annoying.

* "Featured Art":...As I stated before, there are 2 completely different "Featured Art" listings....1. The listing of FAA favorites as noted above and... 2...the listing where members use "Featured" as a tag

Go Figure

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

RE: Search Engines, con't.

I just Googled for my abstracts and the first ones that appeared (on the top row of page 1) were my abstracts that I had posted on GooglePlus. Wild. I think I'll post more of my images to G+ and include a link back to FAA.

 

Michael Peychich

11 Years Ago

I talk to many of my customers and they like the look of FAA pages, and I sell a good amount of art here. Sure it will get stale looking for the artist who see it all the time but customers do not visit it every day.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@Michael

You make a decent point, especially since this is a site of "creatives" – but your other comment, about talking to your customers, you must send them here, since another pet peeve I have is we don't get the name of the person who buys from us. In general, I believe most buyers think we do. Two of mine told me they thought I got their information, and were disappointed that I didn't contact them, to thank them. That's embarrassing.

CafePress gives the buyer's full name, but nothing else. I'm fine with that.

 

Jeffrey Kolker

11 Years Ago

Careful about posting to G+. Google forums are full of people, including myself, who were "suspended" for spamming trying to get "unsuspended". I sent so few postings out that being called a spammer seemed laughable, but someone must have flagged it as such and without warning, was locked out. Almost took an act of Congress to get back in....but finally am in. Now, I'm paranoid about posting there.

As for giving the names, as a buyer myself I would be highly upset if my name was given out with my consent. Nothing should be given to us unless there was a way to opt-in to allow the name/email of the customer to be provided. Could we say "potential lawsuits"? Customers can contacts us if they wish..profiles have email links right under our pictures.

For the appearance of the site...eh, it's OK. I prefer function over form. If I can get it done quickly, I generally don't care what it looks like. I don't stress over this too much. I agree with Richard...just not an issue for me.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@Jeff

Instead of "look" I should have said "interaction" or simply "UI". I would support your idea of giving the buyer the option to identify themselves or not.

I've heard of nightmares from some people over G+, but my experience has been non-eventful. Granted, the only reason I use it is to promote my work, but it sounds like that's what you were doing. I just post images and leave. I'm trying to stay up with too many sites, all for visibility. Thanks for the warning, though.

 

Alexandra Till

11 Years Ago


One more word about deviantART.
....... Lar said: You click the log-in button on the top of the page, enter your access information, the menu disappears, you are logged in ....
And I want to add: and you stay logged in.
Why we get kicked off of FAA after 15 minutes is beyond my comprehension. It's certainly not userfriendly.

Roger, although I think it's not fair to discuss SE problems in this thread, let me say that you TALK about
'yellow tulips' photographs http://fineartamerica.com/art/photographs/Yellow+Tulips/all
but according to the link in your screenshot you searched for
'tulips yellow' photographs http://fineartamerica.com/art/photographs/Tulips+Yellow/all

I'm not saying Search is working flawlessly, but the order of keywords used to search is important. 'Tulips' is your first (most important) search term, and even red tulips are tulips.

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

Dan Turner said:

"This is beautiful design for an art site. Great impact, excellent navigation and the main image changes on each refresh.

http://500px.com/

Look how that makes you feel."


My reaction:

On that website, the navigation bar is at the homepage's bottom. Also,
the font in the navigation bar is too small. This all would be more functional
for a first-time viewer if it were at the top with larger fonts.

So, it makes me feel, as I have said, that the design incorrectly took precedence over the function.

And, okay Dan, I'll name one name - "Dan Turner". I believe that you are in fact
thinking too much as a designer in a situation that requires more mechanical thought. The art here should
outshine the website design, whose function should be primarily to enable access to its beautiful content, in
my judgement, of course.

And I really do not need to name other names, because the clarity of my comment enables
any person to associate particular names with the outlook that I clearly described.

If the gist of this discussion was functionality instead of visual design, then I could entertain
the critical attitude a bit better. Can we shift the tide to what is FUNCTIONALLY not as good as it
might be, and then make suggestions about designing the appearance around maximum functionality?

 

Michael Robinson

11 Years Ago

Things you post on Google+ appear first because you posted it on Google+. It won't do that for other people unless they have you in circles. And be careful in general about giving meaning to one thing or another appearing first on Google. First you have to ask if someone other than you is actually looking for that term, and if they'll find your work once they arrive. And what's first to you might not be first to someone else with all the personalization Google does on results pages.

The SEO of FAA is a matter for another thread, probably started as private, but it's best to focus on one problem at a time.

 

Duane McCullough

11 Years Ago

For whatever it's worth -- I've been seeing a small artifact just off the main page to the right of the JOIN | LOGIN option for several months now.
It looks like part of the main drop-down menu graphic layer was cropped a little short somehow. No big problem that a small code correction wouldn't solve.

I do not see the artifact on my personal FAA homepage website.

BTW -- I'm fine with the FAA's main webpage design, but I know it will change overtime. What's important to me is the stability of the link options.

 

Alexandra Till

11 Years Ago


Duane: The artifact comes with "Compatibility View" on/off.

 

Duane McCullough

11 Years Ago

Thank you Christine!

 

Alexandra Till

11 Years Ago


NP :-)

 

Janice Drew

11 Years Ago

I'm fine with FAA's home page. I'm more interested in functionality and the site being user friendly. For thirty bucks a year, it's a steal. Suggestions are welcome here, but you don't enter someone's house and tell them to change their decor. I agree with Angelina...it's rude!!! Some people are never happy and downright combative. After reading this, it appears that someone is lobbying for a designer job on FAA.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Hi Janice,

A decent analogy, but not the best: "… you don't enter someone's house and tell them to change their decor." What if you are paying for their decor?

"Rude"? I expect Sean will read this thread, and I consider him a friend. He and I have touched on these topics for years, so this thread will be out of context for most everyone else.

"I'm fine with FAA's home page. I'm more interested in functionality and the site being user friendly." Have you ever scrolled down on the home page? I agree, it should be user-friendly, and the "user" being primarily the buyers. Simplicity is difficult to create. That's why there are UI design specialists.

Who has been combative here? I speak with candor and nothing but honesty. Being candid does not equal being rude. And lastly, "… lobbying for a designer job on FAA." Who me? Is this how you would apply for a job? I've been designing sites since 1995, but now I only work on my own sites. Right this very minute, though, I'm editing one of the videos that I shot for a client. They will eventually end up on YouTube. I like diversity.

In any event, thanks for chiming in. :o)

 

Georgiana Romanovna

11 Years Ago

I like the funcionality and ease of use on FAA but about the appearance? I really, really dislike the blue colors everywhere. It looks very dated to me, but that's only my opinion. It's not my site.
IMO, the site doesn't need a major graphical overhaul, but it needs a color overhaul that would not change the stability or functionality for buyers or artists. The main page - well - it is a little drab. :)

 

Janice Drew

11 Years Ago

"A decent analogy, but not the best: "… you don't enter someone's house and tell them to change their decor." What if you are paying for their decor?"

Let's try this another way....Sean is the landlord. We rent spaces from him as I stated earlier...VERY cheaply. Along with those spaces come perks. It's not our job to tell the landlord to change the facade of his building. If I were his friend and didn't like the cover, I would email him privately with my suggestions and not critique his baby in front of thousands. Unless, of course, I was asked to do so.

 

Jeffrey Campbell

11 Years Ago

"...Am I the only individual who thinks the site has become visually stale? I have spoken with Sean before about it and he feels it's fine. I know others who have brought it up with Sean, too, and received similar responses."

In the end, what is the point of this discussion if the answer from Management has already been stated?

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Have you ever fought for cause, Jeffrey?

Janice,
That works better, I'll give you that. But have you read many of the comments. They run the gamut. People have their opinions, but I was the one who stuck my neck out to open the discussion. If it was a non-issue, we wouldn't have had over 900 viewers in 19 hours with 80-some odd comments. I would bet that many people would have liked to express their views but they belong to the silent majority. This is Sean's site. He makes all the decisions. It is not a democracy.

But, with that said, could you turn a deaf ear to those who have made a good life for you? I would imagine that 95% of the members belong to the starving artists group. We are all creative types. Sean cannot make everyone happy, but we could start a dialog with him to represent the majority with the common goal to make this the best site by far, with both he and us reaping the rewards. People, like Jeffrey, I guess, fear confrontation. I bet they didn't study debate in school.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Janice, have you not seen the suggestion list? As of this moment, over 1800 unsolicited suggestions (and outright demands) for "improving" the site. Plus the numerous separate threads on search.

Artists talking about, judging or critiquing visuals isn't odd or unexpected or rude. It's what we DO.

"In the end, what is the point of this discussion if the answer from Management has already been stated?"

Things change. The world moves on. The next major improvement for FAA should be/might be/could be a long-overdue facelift.

 

Jeffrey Campbell

11 Years Ago

Things change. The world moves on. The next major improvement for FAA should be/might be/could be a long-overdue facelift.

And when Management is ready, I am certain they will move forward.

Have you ever fought for cause, Jeffrey?

You stated that you've tried communicating with Management and received your answer. Who exactly are you fighting against?

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

"Who exactly are you fighting against?"

Nothing personal Jeffrey, but people like you.

 

Alexandra Till

11 Years Ago


Lar isn't fighting against someone, Jeffrey.
Lar is fighting for something.

Two pair of shoes!

 

Jeffrey Campbell

11 Years Ago

I don't take it personally, Lar.

Words are not often articulated in Forums as we would face-to-face, and you strike me as a very level-headed individual. I have not done anything other than point out that you've received your answer.

I do not understand your desire (or wanting) to fight against people like me but, you obviously have your reasons.

Best of luck with your wants.

 

Jeffrey Campbell

11 Years Ago

Two pair of shoes! - With no tread left, Christine.

 

Abbie Shores

11 Years Ago

I know that the premium sites are having changes to them re the suggestions list soon. We have many other great new items in the pipeline, one of which will be unvieled at the end of this month (or earlier)

I know of no changes being made to the free side of the site, fineartamerica.com

If you wish administration to view your suggestions, please use the thread Sean is using to refer to, http://fineartamerica.com/showmessages.php?messageid=254264

Thank you

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago


You seem like a nice guy, Jeffrey, and I meant it when I said "nothing personal." But what you represented with your comments was the silent majority. People who never question authority. Those are people that jump when you say "jump." When I'm told to jump, I say "what for?"

"Question authority"… I don't know how else to describe it right now as I'm in the midst of doing a too many things. But I apologize if my remark came across offensively.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Hi Beth,

Thanks for the information.

 

Jeffrey Campbell

11 Years Ago

No offense taken, Lar. Best of luck to you and yours.

 

Edward Fielding

11 Years Ago

Front page images need to rotate to keep if from being stale and for giving others a chance to be showcased.

My impression of FAA seems to the the most straight forward traditional art site. deviantART seems to cater to young designers offering things like fonts. I like the fact that FAA doesn't offer things like t-shirts and iPod cases like a Red Bubble or Zazzle but I would like to see calendars offered here or the ability to create a box of cards from several designs.

 

Yury Yanin

11 Years Ago

Lar, neither Jeffrey nor me are "silent majority" - we both have ben active in the most interesting FAA discussions for a long time. But what makes a discussion interesting and useful? When people hear each other. When they consider replies of others for improving their own knowledge, understanding and position. Only that approach can give a hope for farther positive conclusions and actions.If each of us will just repeat his/her own position again and again many times, it will not make his position any better or correct, it may only make kinda cocophony of many parrots, each singing repeatedly different song, instead of a useful discussion.
This thread attracted many replies,you are right, but let us hear general tendency in all opinions and replyes. Almost everyone pointed out or had in mind that Sean is the only person, who can make final decisions about the design of FAA home page. It is evident and you also agree with that. The majority of participants also said that they are satisfyed with the graphic design of the FAA home page, or at least can endure it, or never pay attention to it. No one suggested any certain changes in appearance of the FAA home page, there were some suggestions about inproving some functions only.Let's take also into consideration that FAA provides premium members with "their very own sites" where they can experiment with the appearences of their pages and do it if they want. Is not that a proper, flexible, changeable feature of FAA design? Why we must be so stubborn about changing namely the arrearance of the FAA home page, may be first we should use the opportunity to change our AW?
What now? We (or you) offered Sean help from FAA members in changing FAA graphic desing in case he needs that. It is good, but it is evident, he knows that he has this opportunity and, probably, has his own preferences among the many good artists and designers here.If you have any certain suggestions, you may express them in the "official suggestions" thread, or personaly to Sean. Not only you, many of us will help him when he needs. You have already offered, he replayed "thanks, no" and it is solely his right and his decision. You may offer your own changes once more and even show the changes, which you desire on your AW page - every premium member can. What else?
No offence, please, All of us, including me, appreciate your good intent, but what else positive can we do as artists and FAA members?

 

Gregory Scott

11 Years Ago

In my opinion, the cosmetic issues with the site are trivial. What I find very annoying are
1. Virus and malware alerts that may scare customers away permanently, and ought to be preventable.
2. Hardware seems inadequate: slow response, days when daily maintenance takes not minutes but all day.
3. Searches that do not find what keywords on images that have definitely been tagged with the search term, LONG after they keywords have been entered or edited.
In short, cosmetic issues won't bother a customer if the art is good, but a site where you can't find what you want, or that scares away the customer, isn't functioning as the owner nor as the artist desires.

 

Mike Savad

11 Years Ago

i agree with gregory, the most basic of issues should be worked on before cosmetic things. its hard to say how it frustrates someone that has used the site before, try to find new things in the search and can't because of random limitations. either it didn't cycle that day (and if it doesn't, it should do it the next hour and so forth), or it didn't have the S or they used two words etc. i wonder if there is a way to integrate google in there to help for the search part of it. due to the search the same people are always on the top. good for them, but harder to break in, but from a customer standpoint - they might want to see something fresh.


---Mike Savad

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

There are real scarcity issues coming through in this thread, i.e. "If we work on that then we won't have the resources to work on this!"

Think about that for a moment. Where is that coming from?

 

Meirion Matthias

11 Years Ago

I don't give a toss. FAA is tops for me however it looks!

Just got a $126 payout and my current outstanding balance is $280. Regardless of "look" sales are outstanding and that is what matters, surely!

 

Michael Peychich

11 Years Ago

Lar, Yes I do send many of my customers to my AW I also have a couple of frame/gallery shops that use my AW site as an online catalog for my work so I have a lot of contact with those customers

 

C Ribet

11 Years Ago

NEW INPUT

I posted here before saying that it seemed things were bumping along OK, but that was what before I saw the new collections and did some looking at others feelings about them.

If I am reading it right, the Getty collection just added over 32,000 images in one lump.

What happened to the idea that FAA was an artist community where folks could come and view and purchase art by artists who are alive and breathing and responsive as part of a community?

It seems that a mass input of tens of tens of thousands of images in 'collections' is going to kill FAA for the artists here and leave us with nothing but the AW side of things (which lucky for me is why I came here in the first place).

For those who are using FAA main site and not focusing on their AW, I can see a disaster on account of the mass input of collections.

 

Abbie Shores

11 Years Ago

Getty has been here for a long time.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

"No offence, please, All of us, including me, appreciate your good intent, but what else positive can we do as artists and FAA members?" – Yury Yanin

That's what this thread was meant to discover, and what I see is a very wide diversity on the topic.

And, no offense taken. I hope I didn't offend you. I realize that my candor may offend people (usually in written form), but I am in no way trying to be offensive to anyone, and in this thread, especially not Sean. I do attempt to get a lively thread going, and I generally know what I'll be stepping in. But I get to meet many fellow members along the way. My words are likely tainted by frustration (again being candid).

 

Edward Fielding

11 Years Ago

Getty is rather disturbing since the artists they "represent" probably only get a small percentage of the profits. I'm guessing its work from their stock photographers or from Flickr people who signed up with them expecting Getty to sell their images to the commercial market not to the home market which they could do themselves and keep more profit.

Another reason I stay away from Flickr.

 

Randy Rosenberger

11 Years Ago

Not to enter the "battle of the betters" but want to thank Lar and Sean and Beth for all the support they give us as group administrators, and, I have no problems with the aesthetics of the site, but the "functionality" is what I would like to see slightly improved, as was stated somewhere in this conglomeration of tidbits of wisdom by so many trying to make things better, which is good! There are times when "routine maintenance" does go down for much longer that a few minutes, but again I would not want to be Sean, in those cases, as just snow on a Direct Satellite Dish, can totally eliminate your viewing pleasures. So, Sean tries the best he can, and overall, when contacted, he and his staff have been very obliging to help in any way they can.

Beth is on top of things, and I have yet to see one question from the thousands she receives, that she has not "fielded" in a professional way, but neither Beth nor Sean, or anyone, of a human nature, can solve all the problems out there! There are just too many.

If problems solving were easily accomplished, why are we having the problems all over the world with communications, not just on websites, but dealing with everyday communications?

Sure a cherry on top of a Sundae might be nice, but can we live with out it! Obviously, there are more problems to address in the operation of world concerns than how something looks, even though it may be nice.

I give kudos to Sean, Beth, and while I may not know Lar, personally, I have respect for the way he puts his thoughts into ideas he feels strongly about, and how he addresses frustration, while it sometimes can't be helped, with all the negativity going on in our world today.

Just wanted to give my thoughts to people in a positive way, without the argumentative value that so many seem to put into discussions. Being a teacher, administrator, coach, and sport official for many years, 35 to be exact, I have seen this banter, and have respect for it, as was stated earlier, change comes from within and discussion can create change, if each have respect for one another, otherwise it is nothing more than a boxing match.

Keep up the great efforts, Sean, Beth, and all others to change things for the better, whatever better is in your eyes, as that is what democracy is all about. Don't find offense in what other's feelings are, as our government, under the laws and stipulations we live by, can't even agree!

Respectfully submitted with honor and admiration to all those who do take time to view their ideals and thoughts for change.

 

Kim Bird

11 Years Ago

Hi Lar,

I think the look is fine. Plain, white, makes people focus on the art not the site.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@ HI Kim Bird
The white is the best part. I don't recall any mention about color.

@ Hi Randy Rosenberger
Kudos on a very nice comment … I wish I could be so eloquent.

Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread, no matter what your position is. I like lively discussions, so I tend to start by rattling the cage. A special thanks to Dan Turner, Jeffrey Campbell, and Yury Yanin. I realize that I did not get to reply to some of the questions posed directly to me, but I did read each comment. The response was truly global (and outsiders probably believe we all think the same because we are all creatives).

Just to fix part of your statement, Randy, I am not one of the administrators at FAA. Beth and I go way back before FAA days at another POD, and she has seen me get in neck-deep before. Beth is a very smart, talented and classy lady, and shares my love of German Shepherds. She's got one, I've got two.

A man I have a great deal of respect for is Sean. He knows my feelings, and he knows I'm outspoken. It should be obvious from this thread that I wish he would do some things a bit differently, but I can only express my opinions based on decades of experience. Technically and legally it is Sean's site, but in the public's eyes, it's yours and mine, too. It's the way Sean meant it to be.

 

Yury Yanin

11 Years Ago

Thank you, Lar, for your patience and common sense. Let me know when you decide to rattle the cage once more, I'll he[p if need be.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

Thank you, Yury, don't be surprised if I take you up on that. ;o)

 

Judy Kay

11 Years Ago

Relating to Deviant Art...I can only see it as a prospective buyer..I cannot log in...I am rarely on the site very long because I find it...very childish in some way.and the overall presentation very amateurish ...there is nothing about the site that is attractive to me at all...When you are viewing a page a giant ad pops up that you have to close out...as a buyer when I am viewing a person's profile it looks very impersonal..there is nothing about that site that screams " join me"...!. I love the way Sean has given each artist their very own profile page..an impressive one compared to any other sites I have visited. My worst fear is that Sean will sell FAA and the new buyer will turn it into a technological warehouse!

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

FAA Homepage Review

- page loads consistently and fast
- navigation bar clearly visible and readable
- all navigation buttons work
- log in button clearly visible
- shopping categories plainly visible on left
- product categories plainly visible on left
- product categories again pictured on bottom, creating useful repetition, in case viewers miss it the first time
- clear explanation of services at bottom
- fonts are consistent throughout, not confusing the eye with too much variation
- colors are basic and universally appealing (blue, I believe, is the world's favorite color)

... and this is just the home page, to say nothing of optional artists websites, where the artists can tweak colors a bit

Again, from my experience here, this seems like such a non-issue, and I have a very discriminating eye.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@ Judy

In response to your comment on Saturday [Posted by: Judy Kay on 01/19/2013 - 6:54 AM], I explained one specific example comparing a major function difference between deviantART and FineArtAmerica. Since it is not easy to find my post now, I've duplicated most of it for you here …

"… Since it has been said that "form follows function," we'll start with function.

Probably the most important part of a UI designer's responsibility is navigation — and making it as intuitive as possible. There's an old rule of thumb in designing a web site that there should be no more than three clicks to get to where you're going.

My mention of deviantART was a simple comparison of basic UI. Now I will give a simple example.

You are browsing FAA and currently not logged in. We'll call the page you're on: page 1. You need to be logged in for what you want to do. So you click the log-in button on the top of the page, which takes you to page 2, the log-in page. You enter your access information, and you are taken to page 3, the site's recent sales. Then you are directed to your profile page, which is page 4. But you logged-in because of something that was on that page 1. You can use your browser's back button to find it, so you go back to page 3, then 2, then 1. But page 1 still thinks you are not logged-in (the page is cached), so you need to refresh your browser so the page gets updated from the server. I count a minimum of 5-7 pages to get back to what you logged-in for.

Now, you are browsing on deviantART and currently not logged in. You are on a page we'll call 1. So you click the log-in button on the top of the page, enter your access information, the menu disappears, you are logged in, and you are still on page 1."


Though technical, it would be a UI designer responsibility to provide the schema. DeviantART's primary demographic is probably targeting people 16-30. I brought up deviantART primarily for their user interface, and it's far from perfect.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@ Robert,

Please excuse me if I'm wrong, but you are probably neither technically nor design oriented. I think the majority who commented mentioned that the site's technical problems be fixed.

"-product categories again pictured on bottom, creating useful repetition, in case viewers miss it the first time"

So with that reasoning, making everything redundant woud be a benefit? I would have to respectfully disagree.

"-colors are basic and universally appealing (blue, I believe, is the world's favorite color)"

Thanks, I wondered about that. ;o)

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

Lar, you are excused in your ignorance of my background.

I was a math major for two years in college. I also studied physics in college, as well as engineering math at a state tech university.

As for redundancy, I merely pointed to its effective use here, NOT to its EXCLUSIVE use barring all else anywhere, anytime. You misrepresent my comments, when you FORCE oversimplified generalizations onto a specific comment about a specific webpage in a specific discussion of that specific webpage.

Just curious, what would lead you to the suspicion that I am not design oriented? To create intelligible art, a person, at the least, has to be design oriented. To write intelligent commentary, a person has to be design oriented. To live an effective existence, a person has to be design oriented.

Read about critiquing websites - what the DESIGN ORIENTED experts say about website functionality over bells and whistles.

And if you acknowledge technical problems, then perhaps you might acknowledge that THESE deserve the focus first, NOT the appearance, which should serve to deliver the content with a minimum of those problems.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@ Robert

"… perhaps you might acknowledge that THESE deserve the focus first, NOT the appearance …"

This is where you are ignorant, sir. I consulted the Federal Government and Fortune 500 companies on their web initiatives, specifically on content management and user interface. UI and coding are done simultaneously.

So, to be fair, I retract my request to be excused. ;o)

 

Yury Yanin

11 Years Ago

Judy, it well may be that Lar is right when saying that Deviant is easier to use. I have my page there. When I visited my page more often, the site recognised me automaticaly, allowing me stright into my account or artwork pages, I had no need to login, to wright my password somewhere. So may be we can say that Deviant is more user friendly then FAA, meaning that a member of Deviant should make less clicks to go wherever he wants on that site. It doesn't make that site more secure though. I've found a report about some serious, distractive hacker attack on that site in 2011 and some virus disaster seems to continue there, as my experience shows.
Now, (as I have reinstalled WINDOWS), Deviant does not recognise me any more, and I am glad that it doesn't. I forgot my password and do not want to use that site any more. As for the chidish look and poor design of that site - it is a matter of test, but I tend to agree - you are right. Unfortunately, it had not scared me out of that site from the very begginning. However I still think that the appearance of a site home page does not matter too much, the appearance alone can hardly attract or scare out possible member or buyer.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Robert, you're not design-oriented. That's not a character flaw or anything, and it doesn't preclude you from giving your opinion, but it does disqualify you from any meaningful debate about design.

Would you select the next cover girl for the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition based on SPECS? ("Boss, she's got two eyes, weighs less than 120lbs...") Hell no! Because attractiveness and great design don't work like that :-)

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

Well, Dan and Lar, I would love to know how you might define "design-oriented". I have been a teacher, choreographer, writer, and other things that require a strong design sense. I have written a couple of computer programs, written a few websites (both straight code and templates), published articles in professional journals that had high design standards, and designed a business plan or two. And let's not forget the plans I made for creating some of my paintings, or setting up my camera for making images of fluids that I designed to flow within a given fluid dynamics environment. Or even planning for efficient work flow in my successful social event work. Yep, I'm a real design dumb, dumb, no clue whatsoever, ... an abomination to intelligent discussion of such issues. I bow in the presence of your superior feel for such subjects.

I would select the next cover girl for the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition based on the following SPECS:

- facial symmetry
- skin smoothness and clarity
- cup size
- bodily proportions in relation to cup size
- flexibility and ability to move gracefully
- age
- and the IT factor that requires measures BEYOND numbers.

OR to boil it all down to one SPEC: Is she hot or not. (^_^) Is that the sort of design judgement you're looking for?

[Ooo, I don't like the color. I don't like the look. I want more visual stimulation, a more modern appearance, etc., etc, etc. Brandford, dahling, this simply does not work. Take it away. It is hideous. Bring me something I can adore. - Yes, madam.]

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago


http://www.virtualpet.com/industry/howto/wsreview.htm

And I still forgive you anyway, Lar. This is one discussion. I feel sure that we will have other occasions to agree. And, Dan, likewise.

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Ever had any instruction in graphic design, Robert?

EDIT: the Website Review Procedure site you referenced is extremely outdated. They cite Microsoft Frontpage for building sites (discontinued 10 years ago) and Netscape and WebTV as "popular browsers." And LOOK at that page! Is that attractive to you?

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

http://fineartamerica.com/art-website-reviews.html

Have I ever enrolled in an official course called "graphic design"? No. Have you ever had any instruction in composing replies in artist discussion forums? There are lots of things we do that are self initiated, and I get the sense that you are trying to use the old "if you are not a certified expert, then you have no right to speak" argument to disable my credibility.

Do most people who conceive children ever have any instruction in raising children? Ever take a formal class in how to eat properly? Actually, I HAVE done that, but the point is most people do not, and yet quite a few people master the art of practicing good eating habits (sadly, many do not).

And,yes, that website is a tad outdated in exact information, but its basic premise still seems quite on target - CONTENT is king. To answer your question about that page's attractiveness - I did NOT go there looking for a visually stunning design; I went there for textual informational content.

[Let's see, what color shall we make the homepage today? What picture shall we put up today to insure that our target audience will not be visually bored?]

How do people arrive at FAA? Do they leave immediately because it lacks visual snap? I can see it now, somebody does a Google search on the visually boring Google site, only to arrive at a website that uses the color blue and has no spiffy pictures immediately upfront to go with all that useful information that ultimately leads to some of the spiffiest visuals ever.

How ... u t t e r l y ... disappointing!

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Robert, the discussion is about the "look" of the site, not it's popularity. It's popular. We already know that.

I'm sure you have known (of heard of!) girls who were popular but not all that attractive. See what I'm saying here?

 

Abbie Shores

11 Years Ago

... now. let's hear from other people.....

The look of FAA

 

Yury Yanin

11 Years Ago

I am a gun designer, but I am not Kalashnikov. No one ever offered me to be. Can I say that I have a better education now then Kalshnikov had in 1947? I can. Can I express my own opinion about AK47 storm rifle? I can. Almost everyone has his own opinion about that gun nawadays and many are better educated then Kalashnikov was in 1947. What does it proof, what can we make out of our educated opinions? Nothing. They just do not need another basic army weapon currently anyway.
FAA was created and is owned solely by Sean, no one other. Have not heard that he was going to change FAA design either...
Feel what I mean?

P.S And should I know all that designer theory about girls, which you study in USA, before having my own opinion or feelings about a girl in Russia? Never thought that american education could be THAT important!!! Imagine - Ignorant Russians love girls here no less then anywhere else without that theory!

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

Dan, surely you are insightful enough to realize that popularity is linked to effective delivery of content, and effective delivery of content is directly related to the look or design that enables people to get at what they are looking for. The popularity of the website, thus, tells me that SOMEthing about the look MUST be right to keep those numbers as they are.

And those supposedly unattractive popular girls you mention are indeed attractive in some other respect than the superficial beauty that you seem to be focused on. They have a deeper LOOK, so to speak, which is a dynamic or a functionality that is equally or MORE attractive than the look alone.

Now Lar mentioned websites of Fortune 500 companies. Let's have a look at a few of those:

Royal Dutch Shell
Rank: 1 (Previous rank: 2)
CEO: Peter R. Voser
Employees: 90,000
Address: Carel van Bylandtlaan 30
The Hague, 2596
Country: Netherlands
Website: http://www.shell.com

- first time loading the website took forever
- homepage had an active slide show running at top of page, which might explain the long load time

ExxonMobil
Rank: 2 (Previous rank: 3)
CEO: Rex W. Tillerson
Employees: 99,100
Address: 5959 Las Colinas Blvd.
Irving, Texas 75039
Country: U.S.
Website: http://www.exxonmobil.com

- Nothing really visually stunning here, just good basic organization of navigation bar, fonts
and page arrangement to help guide viewers to relevant content (i.e., information)
- Also, the color blue dominates.

Wal-Mart Stores
Rank: 3 (Previous rank: 1)
CEO: Michael T. Duke
Employees: 2,200,000
Address: 702 S.W. Eighth St.
Bentonville, Arkansas 72716
Country: U.S.
Website: http://www.walmartstores.com

- Homepage loads very fast, even with an active slide show going at the top (excellent coding, I suppose),
which really is a bit distracting to me, but clean font in bold navigation bar serves well to direct viewers to relevant content.
- Also, the color BLUE seems to be quite dominant.

Toyota Motor
Rank: 10 (Previous rank: 8)
CEO: Akio Toyoda
Employees: 325,905
Address: 1 Toyota-cho
Toyota, 471-8571
Country: Japan
Website: http://www.toyota-global.com

- Again, a flash slide show is at the very top of the page,
which I find distracting when looking for information. But the navigation
bar is very good in terms of location, visibility, font size, and readability.
- Also, the overriding color feel seems to be towards cool.

 
 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@ Robert

I believe you took your "blue is the most popular color" out of context. In the same survey, "white was the least popular color," and that's what we coud use more of. So that survey is moot. And on top of that, no one, at least not I, said anything about the colors being used. That's not what this thread is about. In reality, the basic core of this thread is about communication, an issue that is grappled with universally.

 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

Lar,

I believe you are wrong. I noted another source besides myself claiming the color, "blue" as the world's favorite color, thus substantiating my earlier claim. You cannot deny this single observation based on a second observation about white. The survey is NOT moot, because you wish to say it is. How is it moot, when somebody discovers that a huge number of people like the color blue? If the survey is moot, then your point about the color. "white", is equally moot. YOU might not have said anything about colors, but SOMEbody did in THIS thread, and I am addressing this particular point in my last post.

Someone here complained about the "blue" on the FAA website, and I tried to justify it as a color of universal appeal, which I think that I have taken steps to support.

And this thread is about color, communication, clarity, composition, content, consistency and other measures of design success.

First, you wanted to talk about design. Now you want to focus on communication. The two are related, you certainly realize, so merely separating the ideas to make one sentence stand out, as opposed to another, really shows no separation of the two ideas. Again, the subject is design, and as ignorant of this as you might think I might be, communication is PART of design, as is color and the other aspects I already mentioned.

Google uses lots of white, which some people might call "negative space". It's a good basic background color, for sure.

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@ Robert

I agree with you that entire survey of color is moot in this venue. I like blue, too, but I stick with neutral colors. Walk into most galleries and they use white for their walls, and other neutral colors.

"Design" as in UI, functionality, look and feel. How do we get our ideas heard without communication?

To make any kind of change, communication is at the core, as if we do not communicate our opinions, we are basically unnecessary. I may not have used the word "communication" in the OP, but it is referred to extensively in the OP and beyond. This is getting ridiculous, and I bet your next comment will include this statement (then again, I bet it won't since I mentioned it).


 

Robert Kernodle

11 Years Ago

I still do not understand why you would call a color survey "moot" here. Is the weather report moot? It is a forecast. It is an indication that is useful. You might have a conflict with it, but this does not render it moot. All this says to me is that you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that it might be useful, ... from a practical standpoint.

Color seems definitely relevant in a discussion about design. It is, in fact, sometimes the overriding concern in design. It is, thus, NOT moot to entertain people's likes and dislikes of certain colors.

You opened a discussion about the "look" of FAA, which I take to mean the "design" of FAA. I shared some ideas and differences of opinion. This is what individuals with differing viewpoints do. This is the process of communication, and like all creative processes, it can get a little untidy sometimes. You are an artist, and I am confident that you have and can handle it. And I still think that we will find points of agreement in other discussions.

I'll rest my case here. Thanks for playing.

- Robert

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Robert, you're finding this rough going because you don't speak the language of design. And you're not fooling people who do.

Similar to walking into a room full of musicians when you're not a musician — and wanting them to think that you are. You may be a major fan, know the words to every song and own 30,000 mp3s. But if you don't know basic chord structures, don't know the difference between swing and a shuffle, can't discuss 6/8 time, can't play an instrument, etc, it's not possible to bluff your way through.

 

Amy Weiss

11 Years Ago

I agree that the look of this site is very outdated and cluttered. I vote for change, especially where the presentation of our photos/images/paintings are concerned. I hate white surrounding my photos... would much prefer an image to be on neutral gray or black when viewing.

 

Sophia Gaki Artworks

11 Years Ago

I couldn't agree more that the site is generally functional, but it can have progress. The changes mean evolution on everything. :)

 

Gone Shores

11 Years Ago

Amy et Al, it appears we are not allowed in this thread to mentio n colour as that has nothing to do with the look of the site....it appears this thread is not about colour

Strange, one of the first thing you learn in Web design is the colour chart. The colors change depending on what kind of site it is and there are whole studies given over to just this.

Even in car design, colour is a major area on its own.

In website design....layout, language, content, colour is among the top thing chosen.

I am unsure, therefore, why it is such a no-no in this thread.....or, at least, that is how it is coming over.

all Robert did was answer someone else and it has become a discussion about how wrong he is and how little each of you know...according to each other. (Lar, Dan and Robert)

Get over it. Move on. Sheesh!

(off duty me)

 

Mike Savad

11 Years Ago

there are things that could be changed in the site to make it more user friendly, this is true. if it wasn't there wouldn't be the same questions by new people about how to use the site. the background should be white because any other color would taint the image. however i would look at the basic heart of the place like search and things like that before changing what the background looks like.


white is the best thing to use, it's easier to read text, it's actually easier on the eyes then any other shade or color. even on gray, though too much of it can hurt the eyes. gray shouldn't be used because not all screens cast a clean shade of it, often it's tinted one way or the other, where as white is usually not as noticeable. why does this matter? it matters because the background tint can fool the eye into thinking something else. and the image won't look as good next to it.

---Mike Savad

 

Yury Yanin

11 Years Ago

...you're finding this rough going because you don't speak the language of design...

Lar, Dan, it is a brilliant idea, thank you!!! Next time I'll start a general thread and then tell anyone, who disagrees with me, shut up, because he can not understand anything, he can not even speak Russian. On the other hand, why to take pains writing here in English, which I do badly, while I can write in Russian? Beth is going to have problems censoring my writings!!!

 

Lar Matre

11 Years Ago

@ Rury

Dan and I agree on some things, but certainly not all. Please don't attribute a quote to me that is not mine. You are correct, I do not speak Russian, though through bloodlines, I'm half Russian (Lithuanian). I studied Spanish and Latin. As I assume that English is your second language, yet I could not tell by your writing.

I believe the thread has gotten a bit too granular. I think we should still be up at 30,000 feet, looking down at the big picture still. Most people agree that the background should be a neutral color, such as white, gray, or black. I personally think it should remain white, even though my AW pages are black to match my personal web site.

I had no idea this thread would be so popular, yet so diverse. As I said before, my choice of words in the OP was probably not the best. The word "design" does not relate only to graphic design. In the survey Robert quoted, blue is the world's favorite color, but in the exact same survey, white is the least favorite color. That's why I called it moot, and it's also way too granular at this point in time. My use of the word "design" is more concerning the layout of the pages, functionality, which includes navigation.

What I didn't include were the problems associated with the site. People have mentioned the malware warnings (which I've had on one of my own sites, and found no malware), search results, etc. That itself could make another good thread.

But I believe, as the OP, that we are beginning to run in circles and it is getting a bit adversarial, which will accomplish nothing at all. And I hold some of that guilt, and potentially the majority of it (it is my post ;). I'm beginning to think that this thread has found an ending point as it is now, since I'm getting dizzy.

So can we wind this up and with some sort of an agreement on things, looking at the big picture?

 

Dan Turner

11 Years Ago

Yes, to wrap up, here is the original core question: "Am I the only individual who thinks the site has become visually stale?"

You're not alone. I feel the same way. The site looks like it came online back when the web was steam-powered and is badly in need of a facelift.

 

Bold Coast Photography

11 Years Ago

After spending my whole career as a Certified Project Manager (PMP) and Sr. IT Manager responsible for system development and integration I will say that the last thing a developer of any site that is supported by users, especially paying, would do is not listen to what they have to say. People using a system want their input noted. They should act a Beta testers for new rollouts, brainstorm new ideas,etc. A good example of not doing this is Facebook. Facebook makes changes and jams them down your throat and then deals with the fallout. In the end this could be a huge issue for them as they begin to be challenged by other Social Media concerns.

Don't get me wrong, FAA is a good site and Sean and his team have done a great job but bottom line - listen to what your users are saying Sean.

 

This discussion is closed.